Attempting to talk sense to exBPD/NPD

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello BPD Family,
If you have been following my post you can see how the relationship with BPD mother has been deteriorating over the past couple of months.  I am going attempt a one on one chat and explain how the money we are wasting for attorneys and time in court when we could be spending it on the child is ridiculous.  I know BPD's and NPD's don't care but somehow I feel obligated to attempt to settle things.  Has anyone ever had a good experience with this.

[Newyoungfather]

Hello BPD Family,
If you have been following my post you can see how the relationship with BPD mother has been deteriorating over the past couple of months.  I am going attempt a one on one chat and explain how the money we are wasting for attorneys and time in court when we could be spending it on the child is ridiculous.  I know BPD's and NPD's don't care but somehow I feel obligated to attempt to settle things.  Has anyone ever had a good experience with this.

[ForeverDad]

I know BPD's and NPD's don't care...

Well, some may but odds are the battle lines have already been drawn.  She may see this as your money (if you're the sole bread winner or the one with material assets) and so not care about the costs.

It's okay to try but be very aware that this probably won't work.  What I mean is, don't set all your strategies on this approach.

I'll use mediation as an example.  Most courts require mediation as the first step after setting a temporary order.  That's fine, we can certainly try.  But we also have our eyes open, knowing most acting-out PD spouses are far too entitled and too used to the control tactics to really negotiate in good faith.  Yet quite a few of us did manage to get settlements in our cases, though probably not consistently.  What made the difference?  The settlements became possible later in the divorce, often just before a major hearing or trial, when the case started shining light on the reality.

And make sure you're not isolated while talking, you need some level of protection from her acting out and claiming you were abusive.

[mart555]

I feel obligated to attempt to settle things.  Has anyone ever had a good experience with this.

It can deteriorate fast.  I realized that she wanted the moon...   I spent 2 hours on the phone discussing the key points of the agreement while she yelled at me.  a week later she assaulted me at work.  Things can deteriorate really fast.  I was keeping a bag with clothes for myself and the kids ready to go.  Turns out she was the one that had to move out...  and now cannot come back due to a no contact order. 

I'm filing for divorce in a few days and she'll be served.  She said that she would refuse mediation because "I would manipulate the mediator" and that "she would take me to court and take every penny I have, even if she ends up in the street".  So yeah, I'm far from out of the woods... 

[Newyoungfather]

@Mart555, the only time I see her is at custody pick/drop offs.  I am reconsidering not talking to her, even with my son in the car and away from the conversation just in case she tries something funny.  She's good at manipulating stories and twisting the truth so maybe this isn't such a good idea. 

[kells76]

Hi NYF;

You've worked hard and done a lot of learning while you've been here. Kudos to you for that!  

You're thinking about the $$$ and time that are being spent on lawyers and court-related stuff, and you know it'd be better spent on your kid. You'd really like it if you and your son's mom could be on the same page about that. So you're thinking about sitting down with her to try to make this happen.

I've felt the same way about DH's ex, too. Her MO is to "just forget to let us know" about kids' ER visits, changes in health, whatever. Or, that "the kids didn't want me to tell you Blah Blah Blah, and I wanted to respect how they felt." Nothing really changes. She's been like that this whole time (7+ years).

I recently was working through whether to call her out on how her lack of communication wasn't helpful for what the kids needed (short story, SD13 started her period but Mom didn't give us a heads up). My struggle was similar to yours -- it would be better if we could work together to do X, but I didn't really think it would go well to tell Mom that.

The true struggle was with my own integrity. Could I let go of needing any particular outcome, and act in a way that was congruent with my values, regardless of what Mom did?

I wonder if you might reframe your situation that way. Yeah, it'd be great if she "saw the light" and you guys could step away from the high-$ legal conflict. But she probably won't. So if you do end up going through with this meeting with her, can you replace any expectations around her response with a sort of personal checklist? I.e., instead of going in with the mindset of "I HAVE TO get across to her why this isn't working" or whatever, what would it be like if you went in with the mindset of "For my son's sake and my integrity, I plan to suggest that we (X, Y, Z)".

So that's maybe a big-picture way of looking at things. Let go of needing to convince Mom of doing anything, and determine beforehand what it would look like for you to act with integrity and congruently with your values. That could look any number of ways (meeting, not meeting, emailing, not emailing, letter through L, ...?)

Smaller-picture, if you do decide to meet, consider what FD mentioned -- cover all your bases. Maybe meet somewhere public, and somehow record what is said. If it is a public place, maybe have a friend she doesn't know set up camp a few tables away, just in case?

Moving away from logistics,a couple of things I'd consider, if it were me, are emotional:

I am going attempt a one on one chat and explain

somehow I feel obligated to attempt to settle things.

Thinking about those words might help you as you figure out what you want to do.

Again, great job working through what to do! Your son will truly benefit from your thoughtfulness.

kells76

[zachira]

This is a shot in the dark, yet you never know what can work. I realize you probably cannot talk to her directly but when and if someone does, some techniques from motivational interviewing might help. Motivational Interviewing are a series of techniques that were developed to work with drug addicts and alcoholics, especially those that have no motivation to change whatsoever. Motivational Interviewing is now used in all kinds of counseling settings both for physical and mental health because of how effective it is if used correctly in getting those who previously were stuck to move forward. I have seen it work with drug addicts and alcoholics who had spent most of their lives in and out of prison and were mostly middle aged and older, many of whom had personality disorders.

[livednlearned]

She will respond to the moment. She may be emotionally regulated in that moment and then poof. It's gone.

Her brain constructs reality in a different way than yours. She feels a certain way (i.e. abandoned) and then scans the environment to find the cause of that feeling. It could be someone walking out of the room or not responding to a text immediately. She feels abandoned all the time and other people make her feel that way, instead of recognizing that she feels abandoned and in a real sense is actually abandoning her self.

Having a poorly defined sense of self she cannot accept that the cause of her feeling comes from within. Telling her that she is the source of her feelings is interpreted as blame for being the source of a feeling she assigns to people outside of her, in this case: you.

She is fighting to be right and even if she wins her aggression simply seeks new ways to discharge because that's the nature of the disorder. She's fighting for survival.

Also, she now has a negative advocate who is ethically bound to support his or her client. This is a source of important validation. It confirms that her feelings are accurate: you are the cause.

She wants to win. She wants you to lose. She would probably settle for a (perceived) win-win but honestly? Going for that is risky with a child involved. You also have to construct the win in a way that thinks through the consequences of her winning. With my ex, winning emboldened him to be even more aggressive.

If it looks like you are going to win, she will settle for a lose-lose.

In my experience, with family court and a PD, the best we can do is to be the person who loses less.

This isn't to say that a conversation with her won't be constructive, only to encourage you to think of it strategically, knowing that she does not think the same way you do.

Her disorder prevents her from it.

[Newyoungfather]

@LivedNLearned
You always give good advice.  In all honesty I want my son to win and for everyone to move on and live the rest of their lives.  I would love to see the exBPD take my son down to the beach for weekend or a weekend trip, she has never done this.  All her money and her family's money is being spent on legal fee's.  Right now exBPD is deregulating something awful so I may push the conversation back into when we get into co parenting counseling so at least there is a 3rd party present.

[kells76]

I may push the conversation back into when we get into co parenting counseling so at least there is a 3rd party present

Having a professional third party present sounds smart. Would it be helpful to give the counselor a heads up beforehand?

If you want to, you could also "workshop" the conversation &/or heads up here -- as all the long-term members emphasize, it's really important to present yourself as the practical problem-solver (that you indeed are!), instead of the one who complains and blames and has no solutions.

[formflier]

Involving the third party is smart risk management.

I would be shocked if you reaching out to "reason" with he or would work.  Even if it did "work" in a calm moment for her, would she keep her agreement when she emotionally dysregulates or would she abrogate any agreement without batting an eye?

Seriously..answer the last question.

FF

[MeandThee29]

She is fighting to be right and even if she wins her aggression simply seeks new ways to discharge because that's the nature of the disorder. She's fighting for survival.

Also, she now has a negative advocate who is ethically bound to support his or her client. This is a source of important validation. It confirms that her feelings are accurate: you are the cause.

Well said.

It may help to think what motivates her. For some it's a sense of fairness, and for others it's how they look to friends and family. That might or might not work of course if they are looking to pick a fight. For some, collaborative divorce may work better because of the group aspect.

Some see divorce as an opportunity to show how little they think of their spouse and to heap on the burning coals. Self-justification is supreme, and their lawyer is happy to help.

Others what a fair parting and try to be civil.

Most are somewhere in the middle.

A friend commented that she put a sign on her bathroom mirror during the process to the effect that divorce was going to make her a better person. And it did. Amazing!

[Newyoungfather]

@Formflier, YESSSS well said.  ExBPD lives by a double standard, she will agree to something via email and then will go around and break the agreement and doesn't think anything about it.  This always happens which I why I call all deals off, and say I want to stick to the court order.  All of my custody offers are transparent, I make sure of it.  For instance in my new custody proposal we both have long weekends, right now she only gets Saturday and Sunday but with my proposal we both get long weekends.   Right now she is acting completely entitled saying how I don't deserve anymore time because xyz, when I state I want to improve the coparenting relationship between us she implies that I do everything wrong and she is not the problem.  I just can't seem to negotiate with someone who doesn't have a common goal.

[formflier]

OK...so, knowing what you know now.  How does this inform your negotiations?

How do you negotiate with a person that operates this way?

FF

[zachira]

You probably can't negotiate with her right now or find a common goal, yet you and she will be parenting your son for many years to come. From my experience, the biggest challenge in dealing with an ex spouse with BPD, is that their behaviors affect your child. One of the main reasons it is so hard to deal with people with BPD is the inner emptiness that can show up at any moment in a wide variety of behaviors. Is there anything you can do to help your soon to be ex spouse develop a more coherent sense of self so your son will grow up in a safer environment and is that your responsibility? I don't know. I just know that there are therapies out there that work to help develop a more balanced coherent self and some claim to work well with people with BPD. Certainly everything you do now, will affect your son's future. Do you think you will try to get full custody at some point? Do you think it would be worth it to try to get court ordered therapy for her and your son? I grew up with a mother with BPD, and I would not wish the type of environment she provided, and provides now on any child or adult child.