Part 2: UBPDh and his foo

[snowglobe]

This thread was split from Part 1 which is here:    https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335898.0

How does this play out?  If he starts asserting his rights and you start asserting yours...where does the law fall on this issue?  (I'm not suggesting it will go that far, but it is important to think things through to their logical conclusion, should it be pushed that far)
What happens when your husband realizes you are serious?  What has happened before?

FF

If I start asserting my right for dignity and safety and he will try to assert his right at humiliating me and belittling me. Well, it can Escalade to situational violence which I was able to avoid for a year now, remember my eye? As soon as things get heated I walk out of the room to keep myself safe. It can get so bad that I would have to call the police. Upon that he might decide that he is done with me since I’m not loyal and ratted him out. I will keep my half of equity and assets and get a job. I will be safe from humiliation, anger, emotional and physical abuse. It would be harder to keep the children safe.
I don’t know what happens when he realizes I’m serious. What pattern do you see?
What did you observe from my posts previously?

[babyducks]

Hi snowglobe,

When I first arrived at this website several years ago, a member here told me I was overly identified,  overly fixated, overly attached to my partners emotions, thoughts and opinions.    The member was pretty blunt about it.  Said I was "twisting myself up like a pretzel trying to identify with some one who had little consistency."

I remember the comment.    When I first read it,  I thought it was Greek, or some other foreign language I don't speak.   But it was true and probably the best thing anyone ever said to me here.

I felt gaslighted. I tried to explain that...

Of course you felt gaslighted.    Pretty normal you would.    I would have too.    Do you think we could look at what you did with your emotion?   Who owns that emotion?   him or you?    What did you think would happen when you tried to explain?    As Grey Kitty would often say,  'What was down that road for you?'     Seriously.   Don't blow by that question.   What did you want him to say?    And has that ever happened?   How was his mostly predicable response going to change your feeling?

When he came home, I was visibly irritated

While you were waiting for him to come home, what steps did you take to resolve your irritation?   Go for a walk?    Talk to a friend?    Come here and post?

  yes, I engaged in defending, arguing and trying to convince him.

what do you think you should have done instead?

   but that feeling “you have been with me close to 20 years, when you were broke, without a single prospect and I loved you” makes me want to attack him to prove my righteousness.

whose feeling is this?   yours or his?     whose responsibility is it to address and care for this feeling?   yours or his?

'ducks

[snowglobe]

Hi snowglobe,

Of course you felt gaslighted.    Pretty normal you would.    I would have too.    Do you think we could look at what you did with your emotion?   Who owns that emotion?   him or you?    What did you think would happen when you tried to explain?    As Grey Kitty would often say,  'What was down that road for you?'     Seriously.   Don't blow by that question.   What did you want him to say?    And has that ever happened?   How was his mostly predicable response going to change your feeling?


While you were waiting for him to come home, what steps did you take to resolve your irritation?   Go for a walk?    Talk to a friend?    Come here and post?

what do you think you should have done instead?


whose feeling is this?   yours or his?     whose responsibility is it to address and care for this feeling?   yours or his?

'ducks

Hi Ducks,
In the same order :
I felt annoyed with the facts that he didn’t explain to the friend that his priorities changed and he no longer wanted the item. He doesn’t want to “loose his face”, npd and admit that his priorities shifted. He interpreted that I was a “gold digger” whose priorities are different from the ones expressed. I’m being accused of being fake and money hungry. This shift in his behaviour regarding his obsession with weight, diet and anorexia also triggered something deep for npd spectrum. He takes a million pictures of himself naked a day at the gym, flaunting his body, demanding the praise e.g. “look at these guns” (meaning his muscles) he also constantly talks about doing things for himself now, as opposed to living for the family. When I try to explain that living and prioritizing for himself isn’t a way to build a string family relationships he tells me that he doesn’t care. He is also acting in line as “don’t care”. I’m seeing a lawyer alone in upcoming days to find out how I can leave the money from the house sale in his trust until we buy another property. I don’t want uBPDh to have access to the money, since he isn’t a person who would be willing to negotiate. I’m deeply hurting and am disturbed by his revelations in the car: “your nose is even bigger after the nose job”
“I’m sick and tired of everything and everyone, your mother yelling at your step dad, our daughter 15, you, I just want to go away by myself”.
He is highly irritable and unpredictable, when we arrived at the gas station and he wasn’t able to use a card to pay, he stormed back into the car yelling “you go and pay this f-ing card, why do I always need to be the one gasing up?”. I quietly went and gased up, even though I wasn’t prepared or dressed to be outside in the cold. It’s like this with everything. He is triggered constantly by the slightest thing. The store told us they would accept old gym equipment for trade in, upon arrival we learnt that they only take one year old or newer. He stormed out yelling “never again will we come to this place”. I got to the place of dis regulation  so much so that I want to cry and yell at him simultaneously.

[babyducks]

snowglobe,

your response is 100% about him.    His actions.    his dysfunction.

I was hoping to turn your attention and this thread to you.    your actions.   your functions.

you've been caught in this cycle of conflict for years.     while the details move around a little bit from time to time they center around two main areas.

• finances, property and prestige

• respectful and healthy communication

both are real hot button issues for the both of you.   for well documented and serious issues.

I'll ask again, rather than JADE - and continue a circular argument going nowhere, what do you think you could have done better in the conversation above?     With 20/20 hindsight, if you could do it all over again, what do you wish you would have said.    How could you have done better?

'ducks

[formflier]

Have you agreed to sell the house?

Why is this even being discussed?

I'm all for finding out your options and maybe that's all it is...I got a vibe.



FF

[snowglobe]

snowglobe,

your response is 100% about him.    His actions.    his dysfunction.

I was hoping to turn your attention and this thread to you.    your actions.   your functions.

you've been caught in this cycle of conflict for years.     while the details move around a little bit from time to time they center around two main areas.

• finances, property and prestige

• respectful and healthy communication

both are real hot button issues for the both of you.   for well documented and serious issues.

I'll ask again, rather than JADE - and continue a circular argument going nowhere, what do you think you could have done better in the conversation above?     With 20/20 hindsight, if you could do it all over again, what do you wish you would have said.    How could you have done better?

'ducks

I would redirect my friend to uBPDh and let him deal with that rather then be the messenger and the scapegoat. Although even 20/20 isn’t helping. He is disregulated and he needs to project this irritation on to me

[babyducks]

Although even 20/20 isn’t helping. He is disregulated and he needs to project this irritation on to me

Thinking of what you can do better, learning from past experience is NOT suppose to help him.     It is supposed to help you.

Part of helping you is finding a way to detach yourself from these cycles of conflict, these circular arguments, these periods of dysregulation.

Unplugging from the conflict, arguments, dysregulation, before it starts, while it is going on, how can you do that?

[snowglobe]

Thinking of what you can do better, learning from past experience is NOT suppose to help him.     It is supposed to help you.

Part of helping you is finding a way to detach yourself from these cycles of conflict, these circular arguments, these periods of dysregulation.

Unplugging from the conflict, arguments, dysregulation, before it starts, while it is going on, how can you do that?

I tried to do it last night. As he began to dysregulate due to business issues, cussing and getting verbally aggressive I quietly walked out of the room and went to take a shower and went to sleep. He didn’t come to bed last night, instead opted to sleep on the couch. My periods of relative quietness and stability has gone shorter over the years. When you read clinical literature you learn that BPD is supposed to get milder with age. Nope, not my case. UBPDh is more bitter and angry.

[snowglobe]

Have you agreed to sell the house?

Why is this even being discussed?

I'm all for finding out your options and maybe that's all it is...I got a vibe.

FF

This is a fight I can no longer hold off. He has been talking about the selling and buying home for over 5 years now. Constant fixing and maintaining due to the house’s age have been dysregulating for uBPDh. I decided to go along with sale and buy within what I think I’m comfortable with. In a worst case scenario I would get enough (half) to buy myself and kids a small condo to live in. I can no longer fight this uphill battle Ff. If he so vehemently wants to sell, so be it. I’m ready to face my worst fears and see what behind them. I’m also lawyering up to make sure I’m not caught off guard. 

[snowglobe]

The lawyer I’m seeing is not a family law practitioner, but a real estate lawyer. Unpdh knows I’m seeing him and has a list of questions to ask him, so do I. “How do I freeze the funds in his trust until we buy another property” for instance is one of them. In case we won’t agree on the buy, how do I keep my half in his trust. When and how would I need to seek conservatorship? I want to buy a new home for my family. I want to move in with my uBPDh. I want my kids to experience as close to normal family life as I can, although I don’t think it’s a possibility in how serious his condition is at the moment. I am also prepared to protect myself and the kids physically and legally. The anniversary of my birthday/eye trauma is coming next week. He purchased us a vacation to a luxury islands with our friends as a birthday gift. Don’t think it’s because of me, npd is in full bloom with this one. With him loosing weight and getting fit, he wants to run on the beach, tan and work our outside while being surrounded by “rich, beautiful people”. I’m laughing on the inside. On this specific exclusive island, there will be unlikely young, beautiful and rich in one sentence. I have been to exclusive places with him, and not to stereotype, but most people there are much older and definitely not fit or attractive. Their priorities are different. What does it give me? Well, I can stay on the beach and swim, read and entertain myself as I can.

[formflier]

Ask if post-nuptial agreements are lawful where you live.

Make sure the lawyer knows about drug use, which leads to impulsivity..

Does your H know the questions you will ask?

Do you know the questions he will ask?

Why have you agreed to sell the property, without having your questions answered to your satisfaction.

The way he operates with you is to apply pressure and wear you down.  It works for him.  It's still working for him.

I see several pathways to "success" for you, but all of them depend on you picking a path and resisting being worn down.  Also require you to be in control of your financial future.

Do not limit your financial demands to "half of the house".  You've signed away much more in the past..right?  This is his chance to say thank you and make it right.

This is your chance to remove a dysfunctional tool from your relationship (his control of money and your fear of him controlling money).

FF

[snowglobe]

Ask if post-nuptial agreements are lawful where you live.

Make sure the lawyer knows about drug use, which leads to impulsivity..

Does your H know the questions you will ask?

Do you know the questions he will ask?

Why have you agreed to sell the property, without having your questions answered to your satisfaction.

The way he operates with you is to apply pressure and wear you down.  It works for him.  It's still working for him.

I see several pathways to "success" for you, but all of them depend on you picking a path and resisting being worn down.  Also require you to be in control of your financial future.

Do not limit your financial demands to "half of the house".  You've signed away much more in the past..right?  This is his chance to say thank you and make it right.

This is your chance to remove a dysfunctional tool from your relationship (his control of money and your fear of him controlling money).

FF

I’m going alone, he has a list of questions he wants me to find out and report back to him. He won’t know what questions I’m asking. What pathways do you see me take to make it healthier alternative. The pressure cooker tactic had definitely worked for him in the past.

[GaGrl]

With his focus on working out, I have to ask...is your husband using steroids?

[snowglobe]

With his focus on working out, I have to ask...is your husband using steroids?

Nope, only specialized diet and 2s a week weight training. He is more on anorexia axis then the bulky Halk kind of guy, so not even slightest indication or suspicion on my part.

[snowglobe]

I’m also beginning to think that the healthiest way for me would be to go out and get a job. With me being in control of legal aspect, having an employment, would remove financial pressure coming from him. It would however be worse for the children, me not being around when he is alone with them. Having s11 with special needs be under the duress of uBPDh’s mood swings.

[snowglobe]

Formflier,
I need your advise. Just as you predicted he is trying to see how far he can push me. He has been dysregulating for 4 days now, due to him having issues at work. He is also a demand about the food. No one is allowed to open a new batch of anything until the previous one is finished. The problem with this theoretically good thing financially is that the products that he buys are not to anyone’s likening then his. We went grocery shopping and upon the arrival I dared to open the batch I just bought. He started yelling that he hates finishing food after it has been opened. I will quote so you can Advise me:
Husband:
“You know what, change of plans, as soon as this semester is done you will go get a job, for a year. To see what the real world is like, so you don’t open the food. You will get humiliated, belittled, shove your opinion up your arse and learn to be obedient. Forget about the house, I’m selling this house and we are moving into a condo half of the value of this house. Shut up you stupid b$&tch, go f-yourself”
Me:
We don’t speak to each other with raised voices
Now, I’m certain that I can’t continue discussing the sale of the house, we haven’t signed with an agent, only started packing the boxes and meeting with realtors until I have something solid. It’s a good preview of what can transpire should he not be able to get into a home of his dreams, get a mortgage or something of that sort. So, my plan is not to engage for now, as there is no one to talk to. I also plan to say the next time he brings something up of the real estate nature that I won’t be selling the house until we formerly agree on something in writing. I expect the push back, but then again, these threats can’t go unaddressed.

[formflier]

Walk away..

He has heard you say "we don't talk to each other..." (that's not working)

So...walk away.

The "value" that you are communicating is that you will communicate with him kindly, or not at all.

Why listen to this stuff?

FF

[formflier]

Hey snowglobe

I think it would be helpful to remind you...to remind yourself, that at the base of this for both of you is a thought/feeling of entitlement to control another person.

Both of you appear to have that feeling, although those feelings play out in different ways for you and your hubby.

He wants you to (sign to sell house, cook him food, etc etc) so he xyz.

You want him to (speak kindly, speak a certain way to a shopkeeper about an expensive gift, etc etc) so you abc.

The way through these things is to bring focus onto your emotions, your actions, your values.

What is this going to look like today for you?  You can do this!   

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

From reading your posts, I wonder if you are giving him mixed messages. If you are reluctant to sell the house, why are you packing boxes?

The boundary on this seems fuzzy to me. When there are fuzzy boundaries then it's hard to maintain them.

I think it is good that you are speaking to a lawyer about your share in the house if it sells, but he still has access to his share. I also don't know the property laws in your area for married couples. I think it's a good idea to speak to the lawyer so you know them up front. Yet, once your H has cash in his hand, he can do what he wants with it. If you had all the cash- he knows how to get it by threatening you with divorce until you back down.

Once you know all the legal aspects of this, I hope you will have a firm boundary- but if he doesn't like it, he still knows that threats work to get you to back down.

If he truly wants to sell the house and you don't, then this may also cause him to keep threatening till he gets his way. It isn't just the house- it seems that this is just his "thing of the moment" but to him - it is THE thing. If the house was sold and he got the money, would there be something else he would dwell on? Look back at his behavior and see if this is the pattern with him.

I agree with Babyducks and FF to focus on you, not him. His feelings and emotions are not under your control. Neither is what he eats or doesn't eat, or what he buys for you or doesn't buy for you. It isn't possible to change another person. He's going to do what he chooses to do. Your part is to manage yourself in this and your responses.

[snowglobe]

Hey snowglobe

I think it would be helpful to remind you...to remind yourself, that at the base of this for both of you is a thought/feeling of entitlement to control another person.

Both of you appear to have that feeling, although those feelings play out in different ways for you and your hubby.

He wants you to (sign to sell house, cook him food, etc etc) so he xyz.

You want him to (speak kindly, speak a certain way to a shopkeeper about an expensive gift, etc etc) so you abc.

The way through these things is to bring focus onto your emotions, your actions, your values.

What is this going to look like today for you?  You can do this!   

Best,

FF

Hi Ff,
The exchange played out this was on the same day:
I was busy around the kitchen, served dinner while he watched sport. As an avid sports fan, whenever his team looses he splits (npd), I was prepared for dysregulation. Once he finished his dinner in silence, I sat a safe distance away from him and asked him “do you like me cooperating with you on the things you want that go in line with my values?”
He said yes
I explained, as relationships are reciprocal in nature, for me to feel motivated to help you, you have to treat me with respect and dignity as you would speak to your business partner.
He tried to say that he doesn’t care about his business partner and that is why he speaks to him in a neutral tone, but I insisted on the way I wanted for him to adress me in the future. He split some more about me getting a job and learning how to deal in a real world, I kept in bringing the focus on to the way we communicate. At the end of the conversation he came down on his own and asked to watch a movie together, phew. I was absolutely shocked that it didn’t end up on yelling, further insults and swearing or silent treatment. The following day I went to a lawyer, other then technicalities regarding the sale he confirmed that my uBPDh won’t be able to withdraw a penny from his trust until he gets both signatures and both parties agree on instruction. I didn’t tell this to my unpdh as I’m hoping for a resolution without creating a drama. My rights are protected and my fears somewhat subsided. My husband is both npd and BPD, there is only one thing he truly loves- his money. Looking back, I understand that divorce would be more devastating for him then me, as he is risking to loose a half.

[snowglobe]

From reading your posts, I wonder if you are giving him mixed messages. If you are reluctant to sell the house, why are you packing boxes?

The boundary on this seems fuzzy to me. When there are fuzzy boundaries then it's hard to maintain them.

I think it is good that you are speaking to a lawyer about your share in the house if it sells, but he still has access to his share. I also don't know the property laws in your area for married couples. I think it's a good idea to speak to the lawyer so you know them up front. Yet, once your H has cash in his hand, he can do what he wants with it. If you had all the cash- he knows how to get it by threatening you with divorce until you back down.

Once you know all the legal aspects of this, I hope you will have a firm boundary- but if he doesn't like it, he still knows that threats work to get you to back down.

If he truly wants to sell the house and you don't, then this may also cause him to keep threatening till he gets his way. It isn't just the house- it seems that this is just his "thing of the moment" but to him - it is THE thing. If the house was sold and he got the money, would there be something else he would dwell on? Look back at his behavior and see if this is the pattern with him.

I agree with Babyducks and FF to focus on you, not him. His feelings and emotions are not under your control. Neither is what he eats or doesn't eat, or what he buys for you or doesn't buy for you. It isn't possible to change another person. He's going to do what he chooses to do. Your part is to manage yourself in this and your responses.

Wendy, just to clarify, I don’t mind selling the house as long as we buy something right away and move into a new better home. Several options, one is upgrade, If he wants to pay for insane mortgage, second is downgrade, no mortgage, what I won’t do is move into rental. Based on my lawyers visit, upon the sale of the house the money will be in lawyers trust, I won’t sign until we buy a new home.

[formflier]

Might want to flow over to legal to discuss the lawyer visit, lots of legal details.

The one detail that should stay here.

What if you husband wears you down to sign.

It works for him...he will keep trying.  You know he won't put up with giving you control. 

Now...if you erect boundaries and keep control on other issues and are consistent...maybe..maybe.

What about moving to a smaller house, no mortgage, with money left over to insure his threats of no therapy, no paying for sports...no (fill in the blank) will work.

Hey..what's wrong with a rental?

What if you rented a place and had a draw on the money for a couple years so you control the healthcare, therapy bills and all that.

Wouldn't that be worth more than owning a home?


FF

[Notwendy]

Why an upgrade?

Your H has extravagant spending habits, but then he also overextends himself financially and that causes stress and issues. He orders an expensive gift for you but then can't go and pay for it.

You mentioned his FOO sees the wealth,  but if it is wealth on the outside and being stretched above your means it is a source of stress.

Financial stability means living within your means, whatever that is.

It is interesting to see that how people manage money reflects them. Your H seems to have an erratic personality- all in ( like the diet) or all out. Loving you and spending money on you and then calling you names and not giving you money or gifts.

I don't quite get why you need to move at all. You have a home. It seems to be one of your H's wishes but a want isn't necessarily a need, and if you move to a more expensive home that over extends you, that creates additional stresses. Moving is expensive as it is- closing costs, movers. It's also disruptive. It's a good thing to do if it has overall benefits, but if it's one of your H's wishes- not made on substantial need or thought, it may cause or exacerbate issues.

[Cat Familiar]

In all these patterns, whether it be moving to an unspecified place, weird rules about food, dangling a gift in front of you then accusing you of being greedy--they all are coming from an unstable mind.

You've been accommodating his instability and then trying to find strategies to deal with it.

  STOP

Figure out what YOU want to do and do that. You will never find peace of mind if you try to please his shifting moods. Find that within yourself.

[Cat Familiar]

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