How close did we come?

[JNChell]

I’ve been listening to a “True Crime” podcast that a coworker turned me onto. They profile some very disturbed and sick individuals. What really intrigues me is that the hosts do a very good job of describing what the childhoods were like for these folks. Paranoid Schizophrenia comes up a lot. BPD as well as NPD comes up a lot. These are diagnosis’ that are made by professionals during the trial. ASPD is obviously a big one. Sociopath is coined often.

In most accounts, these people endured very tragic childhoods. These monsters were made by monsters. The stories send chills up my spine. Some bring tears. My curiosity is, how did we not turn out this way? What do you believe is inside of us that staved off that darkness?

[Zabava]

Interesting question JNChell.  My therapist recently asked me what made me survive my childhood environment and not become full blown BPD like my sister.  I don't know what the difference is; temperament, luck, the caring adults I encountered, genetics? 

One thing I have learned though is that we cannot ignore our pasts or minimize what happened to us.  I did that for years and when I finally ran out of psychic defenses I became delusional and very unstable.

I think all us here should recognize the inner strength we have to have come through very hard times.

[Turkish]

Innate emotional resiliency combined with free will. 

[Zabava]

Just a further thought, I think a lot of monstrous behaviour is rooted in childhood trauma.  Alice Miller talks about it in her work and Gabor Mate has some (in my opinion) great insights into the role of trauma in addiction and mental health

[Harri]

Zabava: 

I think all us here should recognize the inner strength we have to have come through very hard times.

Yes!  I agree a lot of behaviors are rooted in trauma.  I also know that some of it is genetic and some is related to personality and lack of resiliency.

I've always felt I am very fortunate as things could have turned out so differently for me.  I'm not denying some of the challenges I've had and still have but I am grateful they were/are not worse. 

Turkish:

Innate emotional resiliency combined with free will.

Yes!  In addition to resiliency and personality factors I think the choices we have made make a huge difference.  I can remember being around 17 and realizing that I denied, lied and tried to hide a lot of things about myself like my mom did and I remember standing in my room thinking I don't want to be like that anymore.  I happened to be listening to Bob Marley Exodus at the time haha. 

[JNChell]

Hey there, Zabava. Thanks for chiming in. My T has never directly asked me that question and, like you, I wouldn’t really have a definitive answer. I wonder about genetics a lot. I was adopted. From what I gathered I spent 6-7 months in a Catholic orphanage. However, I was once in contact with my bio mom and my bio grandma (her mom) is diagnosed with BPD. Without going into detail, I no longer have any contact with my bio mom. I’ve had a discussion with another member here about how not being biologically or genetically connected to my adoptive parents may have played a part in not becoming enmeshed and further conditioned. Just a theory and I’m no expert, but I wonder about that. There was never an infant/mother bond.

One thing I have learned though is that we cannot ignore our pasts or minimize what happened to us.

I believe that this is one of the most important aspects on what we’re talking about here. Self awareness. I really think that this is the dividing line. Acceptance vs. denial. It sounds simple when stated, but you and I know how complex it really is. As tragic and dark as this stuff can be, it’s important to face it and recognize it as a part of who we are. There’s no way around it that is realistic. The only way out is through and I’m happy for you that you chose to go through. Good job and much respect.

We are some strong individuals, but we’re also able to recognize when we need to lean on others and ask for help and advice. Just another thing we weren’t taught while growing up. Just another thing we had to learn on our own. Somehow, we did.

[JNChell]

Turkish. Resiliency and free will. I like it. I’ve been told that I’m resilient, and I can admit that I have been. I’ve noticed that it’s wearing thin, though. Coming to that realization has given me pause and caused me to think about and look at myself differently. My resilience is worn thin due to my choices and ignorance. The ignorance is dissolved for the most part which is allowing for better choices.

Free will caused me a lot of grief growing up as it may have for you. We never let go of it. Being stubborn has it’s place and it served me well in that aspect. I was beat, but they didn’t win.

As always, I appreciate and respect your insight.

[zachira]

Good question! I have often asked how I did not turn out to be like the members of my family with BPD and NPD. I am the scapegoat of my immediate family, so I was not allowed any leeway when I erred or put on a pedestal like some of my siblings, cousins, and other family members. I had the compassion of certain uncles, aunts, cousins, and other relatives, family friends and neighbors who saw me as a person worthy of love and disliked the scapegoating favorite child dynamic, determined that they would never treat their children or any child this way. I saw how my aunts and uncle who were the scapegoats could never be anything but scapegoats despite all their generosity and kindness. I spent hundreds of hours listening to my mother and father talk badly about the scapegoated aunts and uncle, most of which were gross distortions of the truth. I have also seen how certain children in younger generations in the family have been made scapegoats while others are put on a pedestal, sometimes even before conception. I have had to work to overcome the poor self esteem that I had through years of therapy because of the way my family has treated me and the bad examples I had on how to act. I also realized that it did not matter how much I tried that I would be like my scapegoated aunts and uncle no matter how great of a person I became. I swore I would not be a caretaker like that, because there was simply no reward, just ongoing contempt and exploitation from my immediate family and certain relatives. I also am not like my mother and siblings with BPD who go from neutral to raging within seconds with no apparent trigger, which I believe is an inherited inability to manage emotions. I have never had a bad temper, and have always been aware that others have feelings, something my mother and siblings lack.

[JNChell]

Harri, you make excellent points. Trauma is a real SOB. The hardest part for me to grasp is how it can show up so much later in life. A time when it seems normal to be living our best days, only to have this black cloud show up out of nowhere. The research is there to back it. This is pretty much how it goes. What’s weird, even significant to me is that this stuff was bothering me twenty years ago. Enough so that I confronted my parents about it. I was gaslighted and it didn’t go anywhere, but I wonder if that exchange caused me to bottle what I was upset about. The invalidation shut me down in that regard. That’s all irrelevant now, but I wonder.

Yes!  In addition to resiliency and personality factors I think the choices we have made make a huge difference.  I can remember being around 17 and realizing that I denied, lied and tried to hide a lot of things about myself like my mom did and I remember standing in my room thinking I don't want to be like that anymore.  I happened to be listening to Bob Marley Exodus at the time haha.

BTW, big Marley fan here. I’ll leave a link to “Acoustic Medley” at the end of this post. It’s pretty awesome. You know, I eventually came to the same decision. I didn’t want to be like that or like them. It was struggle. Honestly, it still is at times. The final deciding factor was the birth of my Son. It stops here. I see and recognize innocence in that little boy. He will never know what I know. When he’s old enough, I’m sure that some things will need to be explained, but right now he gets to be a child.

[JNChell]

“Acoustic Medley “
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XmMll3ANwM8

[JNChell]

Hi, z. It sounds like you have a rather large extended family. I’m not glad that there are several scapegoats within the dynamic, but I am glad that you have others to relate to. I know that that doesn’t take the pain away, but I imagine that there’s at least some relief in being able to relate. BPD and NPD is a hard concoction. I’m convinced that my dad was a full blown narcissist. It wasn’t from abuse, it was from being spoiled. He was a perpetual child. I’m not certain anymore about my mom. She would fly into uncontrollable rages and beat the hell out of me. Screaming in a high pitched tone. She was out of control and there were times that my dad had to pull her off of me. Looks like borderline. From what I know about her upbringing, it very well could be. I just don’t know. She was vicious when she came unglued and it was unpredictable.

I’ve read your story often here. I’m very sorry that you’ve had to endure this crap. That’s what it is. Crap. You didn’t deserve it. You don’t deserve it now. You’re a big part of this community. You’re important and bring a lot of value to this place by expressing your own experiences and sharing your pain. That takes bravery and compassion.

My dad was really bad about talking badly about family members. For some reason, it never really sat with me. I can see now that he was projecting. My father was a coward. This came to light when my mom passed.

You mentioned that the dynamic is continuing with the youngsters. Do you see any way of intervening?

[Zabava]

JNChell

You mentioned that you are dealing with things that happened 20 years ago.  I have realized that unprocessed trauma can floor you unexpectedly.  I am 51and processing events that happened to me as a child and adolescent.  So literally in the last century.  You mentioned at the beginning of this thread that a true crime podcast raised these questions of how close did we come.

One of the things that really triggered and put me over the edge was watching 13 Reasons Why.  I watched it because I have teenagers and wanted to vet it but wow did it mess me up.  I felt transported back to my adolescent experiences of sexual assault and suicidal ideation.  It led me into a deep depression and reliving of some awful stuff.

For me, I cannot watch, read or listen to anything related to sexual violence or suicide.  Which makes me feel like a loser and overly sensitive.  But my point is movies, podcasts, etc. can bring memories up in a very visceral way.

[JNChell]

I completely agree with you and I’m sorry that these things are triggers for you. It must be hard to have to monitor what you view. I understand. Sometimes a song can trigger me, but what I’ve noticed is the farther along I find myself in my personal healing, the less I’m triggered by things that would’ve affected me very adversely before. Do you see a therapist? I see a trauma specialist. That, along with this support group has meant all the difference. I’m healing, not dealing. Pardon the pun. I see a clear path now. No more triggers because I understand. I’m still working through it all, but the weight is gone.

I’m not familiar with 13 Reasons Why. More importantly, I’m sorry about the abuse that you endured. I wasn’t sexually abused. Mine was psychological and physical.

You are not a loser or overly sensitive. You were abused and your feelings are more than valid. You survived that adversity. Yeah? Maybe now it’s a matter of coming to terms with all of that and putting it to rest. What do you think?

[Zabava]

Thanks for your thoughts JNChell

Just to be clear the sexual assault was perpetrated by my peers not my parents and frankly I'm still not sure it was really assault, but deeply disturbing and demeaning nonetheless. Yes,  I would like to acknowledge and move on. I feel blocked...I think maybe I'm really angry but I'm afraid to feel it...Do you think anger is part of healing? 

[zachira]

JNChell,
Thank you for reading and understanding my post. From your past posts, I think you had it much worse than I did yet somehow you survived and are working your way through this, as you want what is best for you and your son. You ask about helping the younger generations that are scapegoated. I have tried and not with much success as I don't often see the two younger scapegoats who both have  mothers with NPD both of whom look down upon me. One of the scapegoats was targeted before birth, and is now a teenager. For years a certain aunt has talked about how she does not love him like the other nieces and nephews. His grandfather told me 2 years ago that he loves his great nieces and nephews more than he loves his grandson, his only grandchild. In many of my relatives' families, children are expected to make their parents and the family look good. So sad, and I wish I could help the scapegoats. All I can do is speak up, though so far that has not helped as far as I know.

[Harri]

Zabava, I missed your reference to Gabor Maté.  I had listened to a video of his through Londonreal a while ago titled "How not to screw up your kids" which I find interesting in terms of getting a glimpse into healthy parenting and how important it is to be present with your kids.

He talks about what kids learn as we are simply with them and how the way we communicate with them affects their attachment style even before they have developed cognitive capabilities to process speech.  Even infants process information and basically the personality of a child is pretty much set by the age of 3 to 4. 

Good stuff!

JNChell: 

The hardest part for me to grasp is how it can show up so much later in life. A time when it seems normal to be living our best days, only to have this black cloud show up out of nowhere. The research is there to back it. This is pretty much how it goes. What’s weird, even significant to me is that this stuff was bothering me twenty years ago. Enough so that I confronted my parents about it. I was gaslighted and it didn’t go anywhere, but I wonder if that exchange caused me to bottle what I was upset about. The invalidation shut me down in that regard. That’s all irrelevant now, but I wonder.

This is why I get frustrated when I hear parents say "don't worry, kids are resilient".  Yep, kids are resiloient and I think some of that is inherent and some kids are more resilient than others.  But I swear there is a shelf-life on resiliency (<---- my unprofessional opinion). 

Me T explained to me that back then (when I was in my 20's-40's) I had other stuff to occupy me and I had more energy and was better able to compensate.  Even if I hadn't been hit with permanent health issues and had to stop working, I would still be struggling with depression and anxiety.  The mind and all of its wonderful (and not so wonderful) defenses can only hold up so long.  Now, I am pretty damn debilitated, both physically and emotionally but am getting help and thankful for it.  I still hate it though   I take that anger and use it to fuel my determination to get through this though.  (sorry, had to give myself a pep talk here  )

Thanks for the link to acoustic medley.  I am now on a Marley kick!

Zachira: 

All I can do is speak up, though so far that has not helped as far as I know.

I think this is huge.  One of the things I remember someone doing that helped me was to hear a family friend (who was not often around) say "don't do that to her" when my mom was shaming me (I forget why).  It stuck with me and all these years later I can still hear him clear as a bell.    

[zachira]

Harri,
If we don't speak up, then we are condoning the abuse. I am glad to hear an adult spoke up for you when you were a child. If no adult says or does anything to show the child that they are being mistreated, than the child is likely irreparably emotionally damaged and the chances of recovery are slim. The biggest factor in children recovering from sexual abuse is being believed by a family member, especially a parent. We can support a child by letting the child see the expression on our face when we really can't say anything to the parent because the parent may take it out on the child. I remember when I was four years old how a mother with children my age looked so distressed when she saw how my mother was mistreating me.

[JNChell]

Hi, Zabava. Anger is most definitely a stage of the healing process, and you have every right to be angry. The important things to know are that you may move in and out of the anger stage. Healing isn’t a linear process. Another aspect that is very important is that your anger needs to be controlled. Feeling it and acting on it are very different things. It helps to have support and guidance with our healing in general, but, IMHO, it’s necessary when dealing with the type of anger that comes from pasts like our’s. This isn’t being mad over spilled milk. Know what I mean?

I feel blocked...I think maybe I'm really angry but I'm afraid to feel it...Do you think anger is part of healing?

Did you face adverse consequences for expressing anger or disapproval while growing up?

[JNChell]

Hey, z. I don’t think that I had it worse than you did. We all feel what we feel. The experiences were different but traumatizing over a long period of time. My parents are dead. 9 years now. You’re still dealing with BPD/NPD. I’m sorry for that. I’m dealing in memories, you’re dealing in real time. I think the scales equal out.

An aspect that has stuck out to me since I was introduced to it is that having certain positive people in our lives along the way has been a game changer. That glimpse outside of the dysfunction. It sounds like you’re trying to be that. I say keep it up. Even if it’s for minutes at a time, validate your young people. Don’t be afraid to say it in front of the ones that are driving the dysfunction. I don’t know the age range of child scapegoats that you’re describing. You did mention a teenager. You can only do what you can do, and always remember that your self care comes first. Oxygen mask on an airplane. Are there certain children that you feel that you may have a chance with?

[JNChell]

Harri, I agree. Placing resiliency on kids instead of teaching it is a burden that often backfires.

(<---- my unprofessional opinion)

Mine too.

I had other stuff to occupy me and I had more energy and was better able to compensate.

I had this same discussion with my T. Most notably, my 20’s. Away from my parents, being rebellious and pursuing things (music) that distracted me from my insides. I was “happy”. A happy pressure cooker.

I know that this is something that you’d rather not hear, but I pray and wish for you to feel better.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pHlSE9j5FGY

[Harri]

JNChell, that is my favorite Bob Marley song!  Thank you for your kind words and prayers.  Pray for me to have emotional and spiritual strength and an attitude of "oh hell no" when I start feeling defeated.      

A happy pressure cooker. 

LOL.  Okay, not really laughing here but I get it and it is funny to me in a twisted way.   To be totally honest here, I am not so sure I avoided being BPD-lite.  I certainly had enough behaviors back then.  Not enough for a diagnosis but I was a handful  .  I still have some pretty sensitive areas.  I've been struggling with a couple for the last few months as I continue to learn to process things without some of my old defenses. 

Thanks for giving me the space to talk about this.    

[Zabava]

Harri,

Never mind BPD lite, I have in the not so distant past acted like a full blown BPD.  I think it is somewhat hard wired into us to expect and fear abandonment.  When the lid blows off that pressure cooker things get messy☺

[JNChell]

Harri, I will and I’m glad you dig the song. I will join you on the BPD-lite statement, but they didn’t get us. We’ve read/heard about fleas and all of that. At the end of the day we’re processing childhood trauma. Most pwBPD can’t even begin to do this. I guaren-damn-tee that a pwBPD couldn’t moderate this forum.

Sure. There are traits that are associated with some of the things that we’ve been through and how we’re getting through it all. There is much more that separates us from that side of the spectrum.

I wonder if feeling BPD-lite might have something to do with putting ourselves in situations that make us feel crazy. Situations that we can’t leave. At least not in an easy way as adults.

[Harri]

Zabava: 

Never mind BPD lite, I have in the not so distant past acted like a full blown BPD.  I think it is somewhat hard wired into us to expect and fear abandonment.  When the lid blows off that pressure cooker things get messy☺

So you were an over-achiever then?       Things do indeed get messy.   

JNChell: 

I wonder if feeling BPD-lite might have something to do with putting ourselves in situations that make us feel crazy. Situations that we can’t leave. At least not in an easy way as adults.

Can you elaborate?  I'm not following you, sorry.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split. 

Part 2 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336258.msg13050339#msg13050339