Part 2: Lets say I want her back. What is best course of action?

[ohioman]

Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339297.0;all

Well she sent 3 emails last night I didn’t respond to. No matter what she says, I know what wants me to chase her.  Or ask again to see her. But not sure if this is the best course of action.  

9:30 pm

Let’s see qualifications for your next gf. Exotic, darker skin tone. ass/boobs, sexy, young, Oh and don’t forget they need to cook. And you need to make sure they have been married before. Because one of the number one complaints you had about me is but what you liked most about your exes is that they know how to be a wife. Everything I did for you and Everytime I was there for you during a difficult time completely overrided by your complaints and your criticism and your issues you had with me. I don’t need to meet you on Monday morning. The more I think the more you were a total selfish asshole. You just assumed you could treat me with no common courtesy because YOU are the most important. Assume that despite every time I tried to figure out a way to help you or make things better, you always just blew me off like I wasn’t anything special. Find a woman who offers everything I didn’t because according to you, you never have to do a single thing. The woman all have to do things to please you. So good luck in finding that perfect wife.

10 pm

I don’t want to see you. I would suggest a dating site. I’ve seen their signs around town. If you join now you should be able to have a coffee date.

11pm
Notification on my calendar.  It is your sisters birthday tomorrow.

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[once removed]

Well she sent 3 emails last night I didn’t respond to

its good not to take the bait. this is all just venting. stand your ground on not fighting any further, but let her vent.

i would suggest responding though, in a no drama fashion. through it all, shes still saying "you treated me like  ". ignoring it in this case specifically, would be blowing it off.

find the kernel of truth. you can either own it, or, genuinely, let her know you never meant to make her feel that way.

whys she telling you about your sisters birthday?

[ohioman]

its good not to take the bait. this is all just venting. stand your ground on not fighting any further, but let her vent.

i would suggest responding though, in a no drama fashion. through it all, shes still saying "you treated me like  ". ignoring it in this case specifically, would be blowing it off.

find the kernel of truth. you can either own it, or, genuinely, let her know you never meant to make her feel that way.

whys she telling you about your sisters birthday?

Ok.  

I sense when she gets close to me she starts to think of my exes, views everything as jealousy, I get pushed away, and she pushes harder until it is over and I need space.  Then she ends it.

I don’t understand why she is up at 11pm taking the time to show me that she saved my sisters birthday in her phone, (someone she never met or talked to.  I don’t even know how she knows it is her birthday) after she said she won’t see me and to join a dating site.  What does that mean?

Part of me feels if I say “ok. I understand.  I didn’t mean to make you feel like that”

She will say “ok.  I made mistakes too. Best of luck”. And it is over. She doesn’t feel guilt.  Like we are friends. Like maybe so she doesn’t feel guilty for making impulsive decisions and leaving?

Where as if I argue or truthfully tell her how she left us, she will always come back and want to make it right.  Does that make sense?

[once removed]

my best guess (for what thats worth) is it says "see how thoughtful i am and you dont appreciate it".

and overall, the venting is a better sign than not.

Where as if I argue or truthfully tell her how she left us, she will always come back and want to make it right.  Does that make sense?

it does. but, for the relationship to be sustainable, you would want to break the dysfunctional cycle.

ultimately, you know her best. if you think no response is best, go with that.

[Jessica84]

Do you want her to feel guilty so she will come back?

Or do you want her to feel good about coming back?

I don't know you or her, or your history, but I might have said something along the lines of what you were thinking of saying... "Ok. I understand. I didn't mean to make you feel like that." It's thoughtful, validating, and also slightly detached in a way that makes no demands of her.

Yes, you may get the "best of luck" response from her. I've gotten those...  but he never meant it. He didn't want me to move on and find someone else. He just didn't know how to get off the merry-go-round ride without abruptly ending the r/s. Once the pressure was off of him, he'd come back around, often within a few hours or days. This is what her email about your sister's birthday looks like to me. Like she's let off her steam and wanting to re-engage with you on a more positive note... As onceremoved said, you know her best. What do you think?

[ohioman]

What I think is this.

I did hurt her deeply. I did it to her before.  Instead of breaking up with her when she became "too much" I would slowly stop wanting to see her.

This time, with all the jealousy,I felt at ease being home alone.. She thought I was dumping her the same way. She goes "all in" doing way too much for me. Things I don't even want or expect.

So she most likely went back to an ex and hates it. (Some doctor with a gf. No proof but I assume) But she knows I would not let her live it down. So she is constantly trying to get to the point of "See . We are even. You treated me so bad. So I had to cheat. You made me do it.  Now we can move on and be together"

Or she just doesn't want to feel guilty for doing the above.  So if I relieve her of all fault, it means we can be friends one day, etc.

[ohioman]

Now she sent this email :

You LITERALLY told me I wasn’t a priority. It’s ok. I know I never was. Why did you spend so much time-SO many hours- telling me everything I am wrong and what I was doing wrong? Like why could you never appreciate what I DID do and who I am? I know I wasn’t a wife before but if you just could see how much I wanted to try to be for you.  It doesn’t matter. You will be happier with someone who is home every day and cooks for you. Someone you will love and appreciate.

Followed by another email:

. Your sister is the nicest person. Her whole life is dedicated to Her son and trying to make ends meet she probably doesn’t have a lot of friends
Can you send me her address? I want to send her something. Ask her if it’s ok that I mail her something please.

I then emailed her I am done emailing.  She can call
Or see me to talk.

She then emailed :

I want to get her a card and maybe a couple small things. I want to make her a “what day is it” for Sept 7th too. I’m not getting back together with you but I want to do this for your sister. I can either unblock you so we can talk on the phone or I suppose I would see you tomorrow morning. Either way it’s just not going to work between us

[ColdKnight]

This seems to be a good sign. She is communicating. Communication is always a good sign. Even if she is calling you an As###le. She is still talking.

If she didn’t care at all then you would never hear from her again.  

 “the absence of love is not hate, the absence of love is apathy”

I personally think it is good you are being firm with her (not mean but firm). i.e. the “I’m done emailing she can call or see me to talk.”

That is just my feeling though. Don’t take that as gospel.

[LoneRanger307]

Hey Ohioman,

My last post got buried in the last thread. I hope things go well today if you guys end of meeting up.

Re: sexual issues-- I wasn't trying to say that there's one right or wrong way for intimacy in relationships. Some people have open relationships, others are more closed. It sounds like (and maybe I'm wrong) that you guys might not have discussed boundaries around sexual relationships with others. Or maybe, you two fall in and out of your relationship frequently and she takes this as a time when its ok to sleep with others. If you guys re-engage, you might want to decide if that's ok with you or if you'd rather ask for a different boundary.

Here's a theory I have from reading your threads: I see a fair amount of codependent language in her emails and the things you're sharing. She does things for you without asking, maybe. And then feels unappreciated for what she does do and develops resentment. She's stepping into your life with your son and helping manage the household and helping with kiddo, and then gone quickly after. She has a hard time maybe expressing what she wants emotionally or in the relationship, but expects you to pick up on her hints. And again when you don't do what she's hoping for, she gets angry, feels abused or neglected. It's like a cycle of overbearing involvement to total disengagement. Am I getting that right? If you think it sounds on track, you might want to read more about codependency to try to break the cycle: https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

That's just my theory, based on my own experience with codependency. If you don't feel like it fits, then feel free to ignore it.

[ohioman]

Lone Ranger exactly.  

For me it was constant gifts.  Even at the end she wanted to come to my home to clean it.  Always thinking and planning things to get me.  And after a while she was probably thinking “I am constantly doing so much.  And he is mean to me”

But I never asked for or requested anything.  I appreciated it of course.  But I couldn’t do back equally what she was doing. Also for me I need to chase a bit.

Before Starbucks she emailed that she will meet me to talk about the gift for my sister and that’s it.

In the parking lots we started hugging and kissing. I suggested my place to talk and we did.  Things proceeded and we had sex. Was amazing of course.

She apologized for not being able to communicate.  I let her know I can do better at my communication.

She was then sad and thought of it was “well I guess this is goodbye”

I told her it is not goodbye for me, but if she chooses I respect her decision.

I suggested we do not text or email and we see each other again. She agreed and wants too.

So now I am not sure how quickly to ask to see her.

[LoneRanger307]

For me it was constant gifts.  Even at the end she wanted to come to my home to clean it.  Always thinking and planning things to get me.  And after a while she was probably thinking “I am constantly doing so much.  And he is mean to me”

But I never asked for or requested anything.  I appreciated it of course.  But I couldn’t do back equally what she was doing. Also for me I need to chase a bit.

One way to deal with this is setting up some firmer boundaries. https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

For example, if doing things w/o asking is a problem, don't accept this anymore. You could refuse gifts or unasked for tasks. My BPDh and I are getting better about that. I started making him make direct requests and then he sets the same limit for me. When I am indirect he will say "Are you asking me for something? Is that a request?" He can get quite cheeky about it, but it helps us both be more direct. You can always return unasked for gifts with a polite "thanks but no thanks." You would want to explain the new boundary before doing that, though, to avoid hurt feelings.

It must be difficult for you both to go from such an intimate experience with each other to feeling so distant in such a short amount of time.

[ohioman]

Yes.  As for the gifts and tasks I talked to her about this before.  Somehow it became very negative.

“Hey. I really love what you got me.  But you don’t need to buy me new clothes, redecorate my home, frame every picture etc “

And it became

“Oh.  It’s because you have things from other women, and you think of them.  So you don’t want my things”

Or

“Well it just makes me happy to buy you things. “


And yes.  We were very close. Closest ever. But I don’t want to rush anything.  Nor do I want her to  feel like I don’t care. 

[ohioman]

She either seems genuinely scared, or is weighing  her options with someone else.

Upon leaving today, I suggested we see each other this week.  She agreed.  I emailed her about 6 hours ago and no reply. Usually replies within minutes when fighting. 

While together things seemed different.  Guard was down. She apologized for being difficult etc. 

However she started with saying “this doesn’t mean we are back together” which later shifted to “ I can’t leave you now and we can’t be just friends”.

Ultimately she is confused

[ohioman]

So yesterday she finally responded to my email.  

She wrote a long list ideas of things to do for my sister. (Looked up her birthstone, local restaurants, is making a card, wants to send money etc)

But then said “ I’m not sure if I can see you Wednesday”, and totally avoided seeing each other all together.

So I just said something like “well if you want to be friends do you just want to come have sex every norming.?”

And she responded immediately  with “how early do you want me over each day?”

So I have no idea what this means or if it is a good idea

[once removed]

Do you think given the state of the relationship that the sex might be confusing things?

[ohioman]

Do you think given the state of the relationship that the sex might be confusing things?

Yes.  Or no.  I am confused myself.

Have I always been communicating wrong?

If I lay out certain dates and times and ask when she is available, it’s just avoided.   If I more or less tell her to come over every morning, she is totally agreeable. Even asks “how early”

On her end I feel she loves me, and is afraid to lose me, but is afraid that in a month I will just not want her.  So I don’t think she knows how to handle that.

[once removed]

make up sex can be something that works/heals for couples...brings them back together.

in this case, it seems to be happening in spite of, not necessarily in order to repair, a big lack of trust. that might be contributing to the confusion too. heightened vulnerability...no trust.

regarding the gifts, have you heard about the five love languages?

[ColdKnight]

They play by their own rules and heaven help you if you point out the double standard. Mine gave me the silent treatment for two weeks but later got mad when I took 48 hours to respond to a text (it was more like a day and a half).

When she says she loves you she does love you. When she says she hates you she truly hates you. That’s just the way their brain works.

Think about everything you have doing that has NOT worked? Is there something new you can do?

[ohioman]

Think about everything you have doing that has NOT worked? Is there something new you can do?

I honestly don’t know. 

When we are in a relationship, I just don’t have the patience to constantly address every single concern she has.  She will just have to “know” I am not cheating, I am serious etc.

When she is always worried about my phone, objects in my home, my exes, reading into texts incorrectly it pushes me away.  It’s not sexy to me.  Just like it would not be to her.

She claims if we were married things would be different which I don’t buy. 

Which is another issue.  She wants to get married and have children.  Which I do also.  But I don’t feel she is anywhere near ready.  When I explain this she only says “I am critisizing her and being mean”

[ColdKnight]

Man o man brrother,

I know it’s hard to hear, I hated hearing it (still do actually) but DONT marry this girl and ABSOLUTELY do not have children with her until she has completed some sort of therapy and is no longer exhibiting this behavior.

I wanted to get mine pregnant (first time ever in my life have I ever considered that) and I am soo glad I didn’t. I read some
of the horror stories here of people involved in 10-25-25 year relationships with these folks. The pain people have gone through is unbelievable.

Trust me brother, as hard as it is to accept. We really did dodge
A bullet. A few actually

[once removed]

When we are in a relationship, I just don’t have the patience to constantly address every single concern she has.  She will just have to “know” I am not cheating, I am serious etc.

being in a relationship with someone with BPD traits requires a huge amount of strength, patience, skill, and realistic expectations are critical.

i was in a relationship with a very jealous partner. i wouldnt do it again. i have since then learned the skills here to deal with a jealous partner. it can be done.

as a side note, while it may not be sexy, there is often a payoff to it; there was in my case. its why i stayed despite my protests.

Which is another issue.  She wants to get married and have children.  Which I do also.  But I don’t feel she is anywhere near ready.

your partner has fears you may be underestimating. most women want commitment, want security, your partner even more so than most.

when you say you dont feel she is anywhere near ready, she can feel this. the message she receives is that she isnt good enough to commit to. while some women will put up a good fight to be seen as good enough, they will eventually tire of it, and your partner is nearly there.

at the end of the day, you either want to marry her and have children, or you dont. i suspect its more of a case of "the relationship is too good to leave, and too bad to stay", and youre holding onto hope. but having one foot in the relationship and one foot out of it, is a recipe for disaster.

youre at a crossroads. you can double down, and learn the skills here, understand what it will take. or you can let go of hope. both will be hard choices and require work. the healthiest decisions often do. but the path youre on isnt a sustainable one.

[ohioman]

as a side note, while it may not be sexy, there is often a payoff to it; there was in my case. its why i stayed despite my protests.

your partner has fears you may be underestimating. most women want commitment, want security, your partner even more so than most.

when you say you dont feel she is anywhere near ready, she can feel this. the message she receives is that she isnt good enough to commit to. while some women will put up a good fight to be seen as good enough, they will eventually tire of it, and your partner is nearly there.

at the end of the day, you either want to marry her and have children, or you dont. i suspect its more of a case of "the relationship is too good to leave, and too bad to stay", and youre holding onto hope. but having one foot in the relationship and one foot out of it, is a recipe for disaster.

youre at a crossroads. you can double down, and learn the skills here, understand what it will take. or you can let go of hope. both will be hard choices and require work. the healthiest decisions often do. but the path youre on isnt a sustainable one.

Yes. Pretty much exactly. 

And she had tried extremely hard.

And she is convinced it is because she is not pretty enough.  But she is very pretty.

She has the most energy of any woman I have seen in my
Life. But I try to tell her she can’t do everything for everyone constantly, and still have a marriage and family of her own.

She is over dedicated to her job and works 6 days a week, including every weekend.  Odd hours.  Usually during the week done at 8 pm.

Then she takes care of her mom once a week.  Then she sees her sister twice a week.  Which leaves me like 3 to 4 nights from 8 until 11. Then bed.

Our longest disagreement all year was me asking “if we were together, what would daily life be like?”  And I could never get an answer. It would be almost like I don’t have a wife.  What would be the point?

So she changed her schedule which was very tough.  Started to heat up / prepare food a little.  But was still constantly not only jealous, but accusing me of outrageous things. At the worst times. I stop being sexually attracted to her, and it kills her inside. She counts that as “breaking up”

So she views it as my fault., I view it as hers.   Same cycle that appears a month or two in.

[once removed]

If that's the case, the question is whether this is a dead end relationship or whether to he trajectory could realistically change.

What do you think.

[ohioman]

If that's the case, the question is whether this is a dead end relationship or whether to he trajectory could realistically change.

What do you think.

I feel neither of us knew how to communicate.  She would bring up issues at the worst time. And instead of giving me space, she would go on and on and on.  I would snap.  think that can be changed.

At this point she came over 3 mornings in a row.  Amazing sex. She is eating better.  Starting a small business.  All my ideas that she thanks me for. She wants to continue seeing me every morning.

Now here is the issue in which I may just end it.

I asked her where we are.  She is AGAIN seeing the older doctor in some capacity.  Very hard for her to admit.

I said what we are doing is not sustainable. She said she can’t live without me in her life.  She can never say goodbye.

I then said this doesn’t work for me so I need a decision.  She would talk in circles and avoid it. Ultimately she says she always dropped whatever she was doing for me for years, and I always lost interest.  So she doesn’t want to again.  She says she is scared.

Part of me feels like we are getting so close.  Part of me cannot just be around while she is seeing someone else.

[LoneRanger307]

A lot of what I see you saying comes back to boundaries.

For example, it sounds like you would like to have an exclusive relationship, but she keeps going back to her ex. Do you set any boundaries around this, what you will do if you find out she is seeing her ex again?

She also sounds like she wants to set a boundary around marriage or has a life goal to be married and have kids. It sounds like you could share that goal, if you saw changes in her jealousy. What changes have you asked for? What changes are you willing to make?

It sounds like the great sex keeps you hooked.  She tried to set a boundary around your coffee chat on Monday to limit the topics and focus, but maybe broke her own boundary to have sex with you. The sex makes you both feel good and engaged, but then she feels bad after. Do you guys talk about this? Do you talk about STDs with her going back to her ex? Do you talk about birth control, since she is wanting kids?

She's in her 30s right? So her window for kids is narrowed and gets smaller every year. If that's a goal, finding a partner for that becomes more and more important. I had several cousins who had happy accident pregnancies in their 30s, due to stopping pill BC though they still used condoms. I had another cousin who lied about taking pill BC to purposefully get pregnant. If a baby is definitely off the menu for you right now, there is only one sure fire way to prevent it.

[ohioman]

It’s hard to understand. She is seemingly super happy to come over, have sex, and not talk about a relationship at all. She told me she wants to everyday.

As a guy, this seems great in a way.  Some part of me is like “that’s perfect”.  And I am thinking that possibly, slowly, we can talk about communication etc.

Another part of me wonders if I am a fool.  Sort of like prolonging her ability to be with or pursue someone else who is not available by giving myself to her. It might not even be true at all on her end.  I don’t know.

I do know she has been and is in love with me.  Perhaps she is genuinely scared.  I don’t know

[ColdKnight]

So you feel that if you continue to let her come over and have sex then you will get deeper and deeper attached to her emotionally?

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  The discussion continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339559.0

Thank you.