Sigh...the crazy has arrived

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Well...you guys know my wife doesn't stick to a plan.

Apparently she believes she is packing up kids tomorrow (instead of next week) and going to visit sister.  Our oldest daughter is getting married next weekend.  We had planned on traveling together on Monday/Tuesday.

She expects me to give her money to accomplish all this.

I'm not biting...also not going to persecute.  Will be tricky.

But...loading all the kids up and then asking for money in front of them...or asking if it's ok to go..etc etc.

Not going to enable..or protect her from embarrassment.

Very disappointing.  Not to mention the Father's day plans we have discussed...and emotions a Father might feel in prep for wedding...those things we had talked about doing together.



FF

[formflier]

Well...you guys know my wife doesn't stick to a plan.

Apparently she believes she is packing up kids tomorrow (instead of next week) and going to visit sister.  Our oldest daughter is getting married next weekend.  We had planned on traveling together on Monday/Tuesday.

She expects me to give her money to accomplish all this.

I'm not biting...also not going to persecute.  Will be tricky.

But...loading all the kids up and then asking for money in front of them...or asking if it's ok to go..etc etc.

Not going to enable..or protect her from embarrassment.

Very disappointing.  Not to mention the Father's day plans we have discussed...and emotions a Father might feel in prep for wedding...those things we had talked about doing together.



FF

[snowglobe]

Well...you guys know my wife doesn't stick to a plan.

Apparently she believes she is packing up kids tomorrow (instead of next week) and going to visit sister.  Our oldest daughter is getting married next weekend.  We had planned on traveling together on Monday/Tuesday.

She expects me to give her money to accomplish all this.

I'm not biting...also not going to persecute.  Will be tricky.

But...loading all the kids up and then asking for money in front of them...or asking if it's ok to go..etc etc.

Not going to enable..or protect her from embarrassment.

Very disappointing.  Not to mention the Father's day plans we have discussed...and emotions a Father might feel in prep for wedding...those things we had talked about doing together.


FF

Hi Ff,
I’m sorry your wife is sabotaging your plans for the Father’s Day. It must be a very special day for you, since you are so involved in the child rearing. Unfortunately, this change of plans isn’t something unusual for bpd. Time and time again we believe and try to relax in the anticipation of a big event only to be blindsided. I don’t know about you, but I can never “guess or predict” where the ball is gonna come spinning at me. I wonder if your daughters wedding is a trigger point for your wife. Why the sudden change? Additionally, how do you plan to carry out in a non confrontational way once she does ask you for financial resources? Can you give me a run down? How do you plan to respond?

[GaGrl]

I would imagine that the first wedding is a huge trigger! This is a  MAJOR milestone.

Your wife is probably remembering other family weddings, as well as her own hopes and dreams for her marriage.

Is this an opportunity for an intimate conversation, as opposed to a negotiation or boundary enforcement?

Not a challenge...just a female perspective on the situation. She may be wanting to have a conversation with her sister that she feels she can't have with you.

Thoughts?

[empath]

Congrats on the wedding!

I can remember 3 years ago when my son got married - we had a lot of crazy that summer. I was "sent" to my mom's house out of state for "an extended time". I had so many emotions during that time; of course, my h probably had even more intense ones. I tried to keep discussions logical and focus on the logistics. I ended up staying at a hotel near the wedding venue with our daughters and my family while my h stayed at our house.

Would FFw be able to fund the trip to sister herself?

[Enabler]

Hope the wedding goes well FF, what a glorious day for a father. "My work here is done". Hope the speech planning is going well.

I'm regularly gobsmacked at the lack of consideration my W can give to me. It's sometimes like I'm invisible. It's not just been that way in the last 3 years and our martial disintegration, it's always been that way. If you happen to be aligned with her then you probably don't notice a thing... but if not, you might as well be dead to her. A small example would be something like, I have never experienced this "We're out for dinner, I've prepared something for you because I know you would have been at work all day".

Will you seriously have a standoff with your W over this in the driveway? Is this wise given the proximity to the wedding and likelihood of an emotional hangover lasting days... weeks...? Would you want to risk materially hurting your daughters wedding day over this?

Enabler

[formflier]

Is this an opportunity for an intimate conversation, as opposed to a negotiation or boundary enforcement?

Not a challenge...just a female perspective on the situation. She may be wanting to have a conversation with her sister that she feels she can't have with you

She apparently wanted to handle this via text yesterday.  I let her know that my preference was an in person conversation when we were at our best/I had sufficient sleep.

Some of my disabilities have been acting up and my sleep is pretty bad.  She is aware.

So...last night...kids were "accidentally" allowed to play outside my door at midnight 30 (1230). 

I got very little sleep/rest.  (not surprising she "went there")

We are the last marriage standing in her family and the people (including her sister) she wants to see have openly advocated for our divorce.  I've heard this with my own ears.

As of late my wife and I had been on a better streak and had many good conversations about how we envisioned the time together prior to our first child getting married being for us.  So...this is a "poof" change.  Disappointing yet not shocking.

I'm available for a conversation with my wife about this, I can't imagine agreeing to it. 

She attempts to assume victim stance that she has to live away from her family...because she lives in town with her family..the place she picked to live so she could be with her family.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

 

Will you seriously have a standoff with your W over this in the driveway? Is this wise given the proximity to the wedding and likelihood of an emotional hangover lasting days... weeks...? Would you want to risk materially hurting your daughters wedding day over this?

I'm not going to set out to have an argument over this...I'm also not going to "pretend" or enable this to look normal to anyone. 

I won't save her from her choices. 

I'm not going to do gymnastics to avoid my wife's choices hurting others, especially if I've thought my position through from a values point...

She can have an argument in the driveway...I can have a discussion.  Or I can walk away from it.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Would FFw be able to fund the trip to sister herself?

She claims she can't, yet I have no way to verify.  She even said it could be a loan...I could trust her to repay.

As far as my strategy.  No is a complete sentence.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Congratulations on the wedding.

I think this is a huge emotional point- and pwBPD have trouble with emotions. It's also huge for you, Dad. It's a wonderful milestone, but as you know, milestones are bittersweet. It's also a stressor- planning a wedding, having all those guests, the costs.

I know you are a boundaries guy, but there are times and places for how hard we hold to them, and which ones. Which are the absolute ones-the ones we dig our heels in because they are about our values, and the ones we are not so rigid about. What is temporary and what isn't.

Usually, if there's any family event, I tend towards letting things go because it is only for a short while and these things tend to be stressful. These events tend to be memory makers. Think of your daughter too. She may have seen several BPD mom meltdowns, but she will remember BPD mom having one at her wedding.

I have memories of my parents bickering at my college graduation. They bickered frequently, but the one day when all my friends' parents were there for them celebrating,  my parents were bickering. I went home alone and cried. Could  they not have held it together for that one day for me?

My wedding was also a lot about BPD mom- she controlled most of it. But I can understand the dynamics and how it was easier that way. Before the wedding I had some time with my father when mom was off getting herself ready. I have some nice pictures from that. My parents didn't bicker during the wedding.

I don't think constant appeasement is a good thing,  but this is your daughter's wedding and she will remember this day. It's a big moment for parents too- but this day really belongs to her and her husband. What can you do to make it a good memory for her? Seize the moment with her FF. This is a big one.

[formflier]

I went to my weekly Bible study this morning and I'm grabbing biscuit and coffee.  Trying to get my mind right to head home.

It is possible they will already be gone...or they could all be asleep.  Who knows.

I'll try my best to hear her out. 

I've no doubt that I can show up at the wedding and not bicker..not make a scene, as much as it relates to me.  I do have worries taking action I don't believe in...in hopes that my wife won't make a scene.

She will do what she will do...

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

It will reflect on her if she does. 

I don't hold my memories to be resentments. I use them as guides to put myself in my kids' shoes during these special moments in their lives. I remain aware that kids remember their milestones- graduations, birthdays, weddings. These are their days- regardless of what their parents are dealing with.

A pwBPD can tend to see children as extensions of themselves, not individuals with their own sense of self and world view. In a family with a disordered person, the focus is often on that person and any issues they stir up. This takes the focus off the children. I don't think the focus in a marriage should only be on the kids, but on their milestones- it is about them and celebrating the day.

Planning my wedding was "Mom's way or the highway". There wasn't much point in arguing with her. But she was off getting herself ready before the wedding. This meant I had my father with me and my wedding party without my mother - and  he could actually focus on being a father at that moment. This is a special moment for fathers and daughters and I got that moment, along with pictures.

Seize these moments FF. It means a lot to your daughter on this day.

[formflier]

Yeah...I know what you mean about memories.  I'm attempting...hoping that "Mamaaw Susie's" Subaru will be ready to be painted up with "just married..." and have the cans put on it..and all that.

My focus today is getting the hood painted and back on the car.  After that...it's ready although I would like to do more primping.

The car itself is nothing special.   A 1996 Subaru.  It was Mamaaw's last car bought new for her by "Uncle" (one of her sons)...who is a car guy.  (literally has a pole barn full of classic muscle cars).

Mamaaw Susie passed away almost 10 years ago, yet her influence is still felt in the family.  My wife will be wearing her special ring...the car will be there...I'm sure other mementos will be there as well.

Anyway...my wife is home...I've said hey...no response.  So..I'll go on about my day.  Perhaps we'll speak to each other..perhaps not.  I'll make further efforts while being mindful to not "chase"

FF

[Fian]

Can you explain why it is a big deal that the date of visiting her sister is changing?  It sounds like you agreed on the trip, just not when.

[formflier]

Can you explain why it is a big deal that the date of visiting her sister is changing?  It sounds like you agreed on the trip, just not when.

We agreed that we would get to the wedding and do that together, then figure out the rest of the summer after the wedding.  I and my wife were explicit that it would include her time with her family...we would also plan a just us family trip or perhaps couples trip as well.

We were explicit that we would not do other trips before the wedding, that the focus would be on getting ready and getting there so the day goes well and that we do/experience that together.

We also looked forward to Father's day together here, although we explicitly stayed flexible because there are some unfinished issues with a dress my daughter wants to wear after the wedding.  We want to get that finished and get daughter on the road Sat/Sunday so Monday morning she is there are ready to handle details for rest of the week.

Never once was there a hint that my wife or my kids would not be here for Fathers day celebration.

Apparently I'm getting less than 24 hours notice that is changing and I'm expected to fund the change.

I'm not sure where my wife is now.  I said hey to her this morning with no response.  No response to texts or phone calls.  So..I'm going about my day...not going to chase after it.


Best,

FF

[formflier]

OH...I did have a 15 minute phone conversation with my P this morning.

We practiced my opening lines should there be a chance for a conversation.

Off to practice again right now while my first coat of primer dries on the hood.

Best,

FF

[Red5]

Morning Formflier,

Congratulations on your daughter’s wedding!

Truly a milestone moment in yours and your family’s life and legacy!

Prayers and supplications for a wonderful wedding, and a future successful, fulfilling and happy marriage for your beloved daughter and her new husband!

Sorry, that bpd has showed up, but we all know that these times, can be extremely stressful, and are going to be extremely triggering across all circuits, channels, and frequencies for our loved one whom are bpd, either dx or not.

What do we know, we know that when pw/bpd get into this modus operandi, we know it’s a control issue for them, as they are in extreme inner turmoil (stress)… due to the impending event… if anything, this is a constant with pw/bpd, something that we can certainly count on to come to pass (predicable)… albeit unfortunate.

May be a moment to give a little to get a little, this is a tenuous and tentative situation as you are describing Formflier, but we are all quite sure you will sail these troubled waters just fine, as you always do.

This is a one shot event, this wedding, there won’t be any mulligans here, your beloved daughter is only going to get married once… hopefully she gets down the aisle in perfect splendor without too much drama, either manufactured, or due caused.

I hope that Mrs. Formflier will be on your arm after you walk your beloved daughter down the aisle, and that both you and your wife can truly enjoy this wonderful and august event together, perhaps even as an opportunity to strengthen your marriage bond together.

… this is my hope and prayer for you!

Hang in there Formflier, you have helped me and as well many many others; many times, to navigate our way through and out of the minefields of bpd in our own marriages and relationships.

Please know that you and your family will be in all our thoughts and prayers.

Keep us posted!

Best Regards, Red5

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi FF!
You said something above that stood out to me:

Apparently I'm getting less than 24 hours notice that is changing and I'm expected to fund the change.

The way you describe it here in these two sentences sounds like a business transaction. Like she's your employee and you're the boss and now she has overstepped her role. You're a straight shooter, right? So I'll say that this makes me uncomfortable.

The impression I get from what you say in the thread here and in many other threads, is that there is a lot of intellect and logic, boundaries and leadership. And not that much heart. Compassion, openness. Being in a relationship with someone who's emotionally unstable is not just about boundaries. And validation is not just about listening and saying something encouraging. It's also about meeting your wife where she is.

I get that missing father's day sucks. But you'll get others. You've already had many, I presume. I get that you wanted to spend time with your wife before the wedding. But now she's changed her mind. That's what happens in these relationships. Holding her to what you agreed upon earlier, is like before when you would dig out all the proofs and receipts to show her she was wrong. Your wife does what she does because that's who she is.

Why is is so important to you that she and the kids stay until the agreed upon time, when letting your wife leave with loving understanding can lead to a much happier time together at the wedding?

Scarlet

[formflier]

All good comments..please keep them coming.

I'm heading to lunch w FFw in about 10 minutes.  Just got off phone for final coaching from P.

Listen first..then express myself as we practiced.

I appreciate all the perspectives you guys bring..very valuable...thank you.

For those newer to me..I'm an ESTJ.  Very solidly so.  I'll think about a situation and my heart follows.

Much of what I work on with my P is how to express my heart, given who I am in a relationship with.  Luckily she has seen enough of my wife in action..with me and privately that she "gets" my wife.

Really scary how my P can predict how FFw processes.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

It didn't "feel right" to push it.

We had a dangerously long conversation about deeply emotional things...I didn't take the bait she offered and we got through it.

I'm still sorting through it in my head.

She has no idea when she is going...she knows I don't like it and I'm hurt...and she knows I'm supporting her anyway.  

My goal was to be strategic...not win a battle that I didn't have to win.

More later,

FF

[Enabler]

FF, I have known you for a bit and you have offered me a huge amount of wisdom. Scarlet Phoenix is offering some wonderful insight in my opinion that you need to listen to. It’s all well and good being ESTJ, we make great decisions. However sometimes we miss the benefits of listening to the emotional murmurings of others which, if considered could build for a less rational but more fulfilling and better outcome.

Enabler   

[formflier]

FF, I have known you for a bit and you have offered me a huge amount of wisdom. Scarlet Phoenix is offering some wonderful insight in my opinion that you need to listen to. It’s all well and good being ESTJ, we make great decisions. However sometimes we miss the benefits of listening to the emotional murmurings of others which, if considered could build for a less rational but more fulfilling and better outcome.

Enabler   

Yes..I totally agree. 

Honest question.  Likelihood that FF will pick up on emotional "murmuring" (nuance in my view) ?   

Likelihood that FF will have a "structure" (approved by my P) that if certain emotional things are acknowledged/understood and approached in a certain way...that the "benefit of the doubt" be given to the other party.

I'm struggling to figure out how to put what happened and how/why I approached today into words (and have the time to do so)...I hope to do that later tonight.

FF...and emotional murmurings...right...

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Based on what has come before, FF, it seems you continue to struggle with her broken promises. Is that what is going on here? Or is it more her disregard of how her decisions affect you? (Or...both?)

[formflier]

Based on what has come before, FF, it seems you continue to struggle with her broken promises. Is that what is going on here? Or is it more her disregard of how her decisions affect you? (Or...both?)

Hmmm...good question.  Let me give you a quick answer of broken promises tied to "lack of consideration"...or perhaps a really "selfish" or "insular" point of view.

For instance...there early on in the conversation today she was surprised that I was hurt (genuinely so..she had a different point of view) there was a brief time where she was offended I was hurt but I was able to steer the conversation to we can have separate feelings...we don't have to agree with them yet they are worthy to be heard and cared for.

She was able to understand that I was hurting and was very thoughtful for a while..seemed very genuine when she said "FF...I'm not intending to hurt you."

We then talked through for a bit that just because one of us is hurt...it's likely not intentional.  

I'll try to make this make sense later..or make more sense, but I would guess that if she had adopted a "stance" of  "I'm doing this I don't care about you..you can't stop me...(insert more BPD blather)...I may have "taken it to the mat" or "been stronger"

I genuinely believe she understands I'm hurt by this and I assured here I would care for my own feelings and be OK...which is much different that "being OK with this".  (I was clear I don't agree with this, yet in the interest of our relationship I would support her)

Broadly speaking my P is pushing me to keep bringing up feelings..emotions rather than stay away from it because it could be "triggering".  To believe in myself that I have to tools to realize when there is honest conversation and when there is "bait" being tossed out...how to move past that and get back to the "real" conversation...or realize it's time to pull the ejection handle.

So...when she talked about things from a day or two ago..it's real and worthy of engagement.  When she brought up an injustice from 20 years ago as proof that I shouldn't be hurt today (I rang the gong in my head, didn't bite and redirected)

Lots of this is still swirling in my head...I hope this is readable.

Best,

FF

[empath]

FF, when I read your post about the reasons that it's important to you, the thing that stood out to me was the idea of togetherness and joint decision making.

Is there an emotion that you can identify more specifically than hurt?

[formflier]

Is there an emotion that you can identify more specifically than hurt?

Good question...flip it..what's the other side?  (I think that's what you're asking...if I have it wrong..please clarify)

uggg...this could get longwinded...we'll see where this goes

I'm a teambuilder at heart.  One of my greatest joys is guiding (leading) people to gel as a team..to create synergy.  Synergy is often created when people learn and understand each others strengths and weaknesses.  They learn to double down and get exponential effects by adding to a strength and they kindly buttress where a team member is weak.

So...if I get that kind of joy and satisfaction from doing such things in my professional life imagine the joy I get doing that with FFw...but doing it by leading "our team" ..our family.  Joining together to make triple or quadruple what either of us could make on our own.

OK...as you guys know...I'm a Conservative Christian and feel a certain calling to show my appreciation to God for his Savior and for the life I've been given to steward by returning a blessing to this world.  That our children would be a blessing to this word and have a much greater impact for good than my wife and I could do on our own...and that our children are "better" than us...(the thought that each generation improves..)

Well...we did that until 2009 when BPD showed up (as you guys know my wife is likely more PPD than BPD...and a "lighter version" ...high functioning..whatever)

Well...things have generally been trending better for our marriage for a long time.  There have been hints of the old us and perhaps I was naive to think that the wedding was special and that our plans would be honored (kept).

Tasting the "old us" for a while was really nice..which tends to make it all the more bitter when it's taken away..goes away.

I don't know if the "old us" will ever come back..but it's undeniable that it's better than several years ago.  I want the old us back, I'm convinced that hard choices and uncomfortable conversations like today (handled properly) are part of that pathway. 

So there is a combination of joy/excitement that a step in the right direction has been taken with a nagging worry/wonder of how much more "hard" will be required.

Of course it's possible that we will never get back there...

I haven't a clue if I answered the question...good luck figuring all that out that I just wrote.



FF

[formflier]

FF, when I read your post about the reasons that it's important to you, the thing that stood out to me was the idea of togetherness and joint decision making.
 

Now I hear my P saying "FF ..be succint" (obviously something I struggle with)

It's the "purpose" for togetherness and joint decision making.  Such joy and satisfaction to achieve it...and when one of the team starts tearing it down..ouch.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'm going to ramble a bit, hopefully make some sense, but we'll see.

As an INTJ woman, I share the TJ with you and I think it might be useful to unpack this. (My husband is and INFP and I suspect your wife is an FP too.) The T means that when push comes to shove, I go into Thinking mode. It's my comfortable and safe place. I try to come up with a strategy or preferably many strategies.

My husband's go-to place is Feeling. He has "feelings" about all sorts of things that to me are just routine everyday matters--like how the checker at the grocery store greeted him, the T-shirt he wore after he had surgery that he can't wear anymore because it reminds him of his recovery, a piece of music that moves him to tears every time he hears it.

I've been told by people who study the Meyers Briggs paradigm that marriages with different Judging and Perceiving types can have lots of misunderstandings between partners. I know for me, a J, that when I make a decision, it's after careful thought and once I've decided, that's it, I'm done.

My husband, a P, will frequently reevaluate his decision and feel unsure he's made the correct one. He feels better having lots of options, while I feel better having made a decision.

That I stand by the choices I make and seldom waver, makes me appear rigid to his way of thinking. That he hops from one opinion to another seemingly without rhyme nor reason makes him appear flakey to me.

I realize that neither way is "the right way" but for both of us, the other's way is not comfortable.

[Harri]

This thread reached the max limit and was split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337243.msg13058164#msg13058164

Thank you.