Moved money without telling me

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So last night I took a quick look at our bank accounts.  I saw that my bpd husband had moved a large sum.  He had mentioned he was going to do something but never actually told me when or how much he was going to move it to.  This is supposedly to a money market we have in our names.  He has also mentioned getting checks to write on the account, of which I know nothing about. 

When I asked him about, it turned into a huge argument, including him blocking me from trying to go to another room, calling me insane accusing me of spending too much money, telling me the money was his and that he is in control of it?  I got in the bath to soak and he came in and stood over me telling me we needed to talk.  I closed my eyes and tried to breathe deep until he gave up.

In hindsight, I suppose I could have acted calmer.  It was apparent he was ready to accelerate very quickly.

Help...I need advice.  Our marriage is a disaster.

[lonely38]

So last night I took a quick look at our bank accounts.  I saw that my bpd husband had moved a large sum.  He had mentioned he was going to do something but never actually told me when or how much he was going to move it to.  This is supposedly to a money market we have in our names.  He has also mentioned getting checks to write on the account, of which I know nothing about. 

When I asked him about, it turned into a huge argument, including him blocking me from trying to go to another room, calling me insane accusing me of spending too much money, telling me the money was his and that he is in control of it?  I got in the bath to soak and he came in and stood over me telling me we needed to talk.  I closed my eyes and tried to breathe deep until he gave up.

In hindsight, I suppose I could have acted calmer.  It was apparent he was ready to accelerate very quickly.

Help...I need advice.  Our marriage is a disaster.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi lonely38, I wanted to reach out to you and ask how you are you feeling with all this happening.

It conversation sounds like a typical dysregulation. When our partner is dysregulated, we are not taken into account. They're too flooded with emotion to see our needs. I remember my ex-partner told me once in a moment of calm that when he gets dysregulated, the best I could do would be to remove myself from the situation. You took a bath, so you did that and he didn't stay there.

Money can be a fraught subject subject at the best of times, and when BPD is part of the mix, it's not easy. Triggering happens so quickly, as you experienced last night. It's good that you see that you might have been calmer, because that will allow you to do it differently the next time. Learning by doing! 

Is there a way for you to find out more about the money market? I think you wrote in an earlier post that you don't have access to this information, but I could have it wrong. Anyone you can contact? Websites? A laywer? I don't know how it works where you live.

If you can't find out the info on your own, maybe you can start a new thread about how to approach a new conversation about this. We can help you prepare and strategise for it.

Scarlet

[lonely38]

Thank you for your reply.  The money market is with our financial planner.  I emailed him last night and asked him to give me information with regard to any money moved within the money market.  I need to get the password info, etc.  I copied my bpd husband on the email.  His response was to apologize to the financial planner for my email?

I just think my bpd husband is trying to find ways to have some kind of control in life.  He sees I am changing and that I will now allow myself to be drawn into conversations that go nowhere.  I am not sure how I could have handled it better last night.  Except to have stated that I noticed money was moved and that I want to be told when that happens.  Period.  No discussion of all the crazy that he then tried on me.

My husband has told me many times here recently that we have 'alot' to talk about.  I am at a place where I do not feel safe in any kind of deep discussion with him.  When he can show me is able to be in a calm conversation, I am open to that.  He is in a very bad place in his life and mind and emotions.  Unfortunately, he has been there for a while.  He needs help----probably meds too.  I just cannot be his helper.  When I try, it is thrown back in my face.

I am exhausted...

[Scarlet Phoenix]

No wonder you're exhausted!

Thank you for your reply.  The money market is with our financial planner.  I emailed him last night and asked him to give me information with regard to any money moved within the money market.  I need to get the password info, etc.  I copied my bpd husband on the email.  His response was to apologize to the financial planner for my email?

You took action to be more informed, that's great! 

In further communication with your financial planner, it might be better to not copy in your husband. He probably feels put on the spot and chastised even if your email was neutral in tone. Have you read any on the Karpman drama triangle? You can read more about it here: Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle. With regards to the email communication, your husband probably felt like a victim of your persecution and sending his reply to the financial planner put the planner in the rescue spot --> unhealthy triangle.

I see a lot of tension in your home. Have you had the time and energy to learn a little bit about the tools we have here to lessons conflicts? They can help you get some breathing space. For example Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating and Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits. If you feel up to it, maybe have a look?

Scarlet

[formflier]

Lonely38

I will completely agree that money is fraught with minefields.

I'm still waking up a bit this morning, so please take all this as information to consider...vice any sort of criticism.  As you consider the information, I hope it will help you with the "attitude" with which you approach your husband (which will likely affect his response).  Attitude first, then technical details of what you say to him.

First of all, I would encourage you to do some triage and set the stage for a productive conversation after you are better informed.

"Hey hubby, I understand speaking about (insert account name/description) is important to you.  It's important to me as well.  Let's pick a time when we are at our best...perhaps lunch on Thursday.  Does that work for you?"

You need space and you need some information.

1.  I realize that marriage money is "joint", yet it's important to understand the source of the money.  The "direct" source.  Was the money from his work efforts or yours...or both?  If both, figure out a ratio.

2.  Focus on that this WAS NOT done in secret.  He tried to have conversations and there was (for various reasons) lack of complete understandable communications.

3.  Focus on that he did try to have a conversation to "complete" your understanding, although bath time was not the best.

4.  What did YOU say to him when you were in the bath?  I get it he seemed insistent and I agree with your decision not to talk then.  My first impression is that it appears you "Stonewalled" him.  It is important to learn to delay a conversation without stonewalling (even if he "feels" stonewalled)

5.  Can you describe how much money this is?  Is it 10% of your assets... or 80%?  That matters.

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Thank you for the response.  I agree that I am probably stonewalling.  I just do not feel safe discussing anything with him and have not for over a year.  I realize I still have a lot of work to do as far as how I communicate with him.  I am struggling big time with triggers and how I allow him to create so much anxiety within me.

I realize that he and I have a lot to discuss.  I am just not sure it would go anywhere at this point.  My therapist has told me to not discuss anything with him for now.  This seems to backfire.  I keep hoping he will calm down and be a rational human being.

When he was in the bath standing over me, it was not discuss what happened with the money.  It was to belittle me and to give me another list of how much harm I have caused him.

Although I am doing a lot of boundaries work, I am struggling big time.  I really need to find a way to feel safe at all times.

[formflier]

So...has your T advise you to "put off" conversations...or just ignore him while he is speaking.

I tend to agree with your T, but the glaring thing for me is the way you are going about following the Ts advice.

Even if it is to invite him with you to T session...so you can be safe to discuss things.

I used to do this with my wife.  We can discuss money in front of a T...or not discuss it at all.  She chose not at all.

That's NOT stonewalling...that's a boundary.

Do you see the difference?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Yes, thank you.  I have told my husband those exact same words.  That I do not feel safe in a deep discussion with him right now.  And that we can talk it over with a therapist present.  He says therapists are of no use and no help.  We are going to marriage therapy earlier in the year and he decided it was fruitless, one maybe a dozen therapists we have been to for marital problems. 

And yes, my therapist has said for now not to share my feelings and emotions with him.  To just keep things superficial as far as conversation.  She has said when he calms down, then to talk to him.

He is not calming down.  I am willing to try a conversation with him.  Will let you know how it goes.

[lonely38]

So my husband came into the room and I asked if he wanted to talk.  He pulled out his phone and wanted to read to me a statement that was all inclusive of our relationship.  He says I am at fault for last night.  I told him my way of starting the conversation was not appropriate because I was emotionally triggered.  I apologized to him.  He says I did not apologize?  How else do you say that you recognize what you said and how you said it was wrong and that you should have tried a different approach and that you are sorry?

He says I abused him by saying to him, 'don't ever move money without telling me first.'  I asked about him calling me insane, telling me the money was his and he can what he wants with it and that I am overspending money?  That he blocked me from leaving the room? He even says he went back through our accounts to make a list of how much money I am spending?

He adds to the conversation that I am the one who is abusive to him, that I am gaslighting him, that I am acting out of bpd traits.

He says I have been in a bad place for a while now in my mind and that I am not thinking correctly?

We kept it fairly calm.  But it was really an accusation exercise between the two of us.

I told him I agree that we have a long list of unresolved issues and need to communicate about those.  I asked him if he would come up with one issue that we can discuss.  We can use the time to only discuss that issue and how to resolve it.  Then the next time we talk, I pick an unresolved time and we stick to it.  He says this is me controlling.

He says I am about getting stronger than I even have been.  Because I am so strong already?  He says I do not listen to his authority? 

The conversation ended when I said this conversation is not helping us.  But that I would be open to a conversation where we work together to problem solve.  He says I am shutting down the conversation again?  Of course, I am pulling it out.  His words make me feel I am 'crazy', that I cannot think clearly.  It makes me feel like I have been on a merry go round for wayyyy too long and I need to get off so that the world can quit spinning.

Talking with him for the last year and a half has gone nowhere between us.  He is self deluded.  I am sorry to see that in him but finally I am realizing that I have not go the ability to continue this dance.

He says I go to therapy so I can create a narrative of how bad I am being treated?  That the therapists (more than one) are not accurate because I lead the therapists to think a certain way?  He says that the marriage therapist that he and I saw together for about a decade is not accurate in that he shared with me in a private session that my husband is gaslighting me and is, more than likely, bpd.

EXHAUSTED...

[Scarlet Phoenix]

So many of us can relate to what you're going through. The endless conversations going nowhere, the accusations popping up. It is exhausting, I agree.

Did you have the time to have a look at the resources I posed further up? They can help you in situations like this 

[lonely38]

Yes, thank you, I have looked at the info on needing to validate, to have healthy boundaries, etc., escaping the triangle.  I am very tired of being the one who is doing all the trying and still getting the same reaction.

Maybe there is something in my bpd that is threatened by me being stronger and no longer willing to tolerate verbal and emotional abuse or to engage in fruitless and harmful conversations. 

[Scarlet Phoenix]

 
It's true that we do a lot of work in these relationships, and for sure it doesn't feel fair.

I'm sure you're right in that how you're changing is having an impact on him. When one partner changes, the dynamic changes. The other party often resists the change, and tries to bring it back to where it was.

Can you take a little time and space for you to recharge? What could you do?

[lonely38]

I am getting with a couple of friends tonight for a bible study.  I am going to try and exercise today, although I have zero energy to do so.

Is it ok for me to give him low energy as my therapist suggests right now?  In other words, keep any conversation to only what neighbors might talk about.  No serious talk.

And let him figure himself out?  This round and round is going nowhere for me.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Sure you can.
If that's what you need, then that's what you do.

[formflier]

And yes, my therapist has said for now not to share my feelings and emotions with him.  To just keep things superficial as far as conversation.  She has said when he calms down, then to talk to him.

He is not calming down.  I am willing to try a conversation with him.  Will let you know how it goes.

For clarity..I'm not talking about feelings and emotions.  If he wants to have a financial discussion, your boundary is having another trained person close by, such as a T. 

Perhaps you might agree to the financial planner, but that would be weird...because your husband could start stepping out of line and he wouldn't know what to do...same if you got emotional.

If you husband won't talk with a T present then put a hold on ALL financial moves.

Tough spot..but things to clarify quickly.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Hey...the conversation you had where you ended up exhausted. 

Would you have been exhausted if you had held a boundary about talks like that ONLY with therapists present?

Boundaries are for you...

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Is it ok for me to give him low energy as my therapist suggests right now?  

And let him figure himself out?  

I've been thinking about this thread for a while this evening and wanted to come back to this.

I think I missed a massive big picture issue and wanted to return to it.

Please look at the quote again.  Do you see the "assumption" or the "lens" that is being worn by even asking the question?

The assumption is that you husband gets his "dysfunctional" needs met (the going round and round) and you are asking permission to NOT partake in dysfunctional relationship conversation.

I was a lot this way when I first showed up. 

Now..I try to prove to myself by thinking something through that a conversation or action is "healthy" and will likely lead to an improved relationship, otherwise...I decline.

Do you see how I "flipped it"?

Instead of asking if it's OK to be healthy...I ask myself if it's ok to do (fill in the blank) because it might be unhealthy.

What do you think you can do to start moving to a different way of looking at things?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Thank you, I completely agree about the part of giving myself permission to be healthy and whether or not to participate in a conversation that is not healthy or that will go nowhere. Unfortunately, when I do decide the conversation will not be beneficial to myself or to our marital relationship, I am then accused of high walls or control or shutting down, etc.  But maybe this is me actually practicing better boundaries.  I am not nearly as reactive with him these days as I have been for all of our marriage.

I wanted to give my husband a chance to discuss today.  I should have known that when he pulled out his phone and started to read several paragraphs about how bad a person I am, that it would not go anywhere.

Thus the question to him about a better way to discuss issues between us where we pick one topic and we stick to that topic.  He did not agree and said I was being controlling if that is the only way we can converse.

When I engage in these types of conversations that are not healthy, I am learning that this is where my mind starts going in circles.  It is hard to follow his way of thinking and it honestly makes me a little crazy trying to do so.

He said today that we would end up in divorce (this was part of what he had written out on his phone) if we did not discuss serious issues.  By serious issues, he is wanting to share his feelings toward me and how bad I make him feel etc.  He is not interested at this point in resolving anything or working toward healing.  I am going to assume his remark about divorce was some kind of threat.  But if he does file, it gives me an out with my children. 

Today I again told him I would be willing to discuss with a therapist and he no to that. He said I have a way of talking to therapists to get them to believe me and back me up with regard to my husband.  So sad...

I can tell this site has helped me tremendously in the last 8 months since I joined.  I started out wanting to rant on and on about how horrible my husband is.  I am very slowly coming to a place of 'what can I do and what must I do?'  And I am way better at calming myself than I was months ago when I manage to allow him to trigger me.

The sad part is that at age 62 my husband is really a big mess inside of himself.  If he would open up to help or even desire to get help or get better or do something proactive, it would only benefit him.

[formflier]

Lonely38I want to encourage you to realize that you are moving to take more care of yourself and less care of your husband's feelings and desires. 

I think you are starting to see this.  I also want you to understand this is a start of a long road for you...this is a marathon and NOT a sprint.

There is so much about your post that reminds me of horrible conversations I used to feel "trapped" in with my wife.  Then, when I would leave them..she said I was controlling..divorce...etc etc.  Almost like they have the same playbook.

Listen...it helped me to try and find humor in the humorless.  When my wife would make claims, I would switch them to crazy things like her calling me a two horned unicorn...or something else nonsensical.

Because really..that's what it is.  Crazy nonsense.

NOTE:  Massive note!  DO NOT TRY AND CONVINCE HIM OF THIS!

Once you understand it...it will help you NOT take it personally...and it will help you respond...vice "react"

I'll end with a quick..yet frank note.  Today you "trained" your husband that you don't mean what you say...and he can roll over you.  Today you "fed the monster".

You want to get to a point where you mostly "starve" the monster.  (yeah..monster won't be happy with this...that's not your concern)

Do you understand the point about "training"?  Can you reflect that back to me?  (critical point!)

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Thank you.  In this chain of messages, someone had asked if I should try talking to my husband and if I was stonewalling. This was the reason I decided to try and talk to him.  He proved me wrong again in that he just wants to ramble with his feelings and how bad I make him feel.  On and on and on and on, like a broker record.

I am understanding that perhaps some of his recent behavior is that he doesn't like the new me.  He said to me yesterday that I have changed.  He used the context of change to say I am perhaps mentally off.  And, yes, he is unable to accept responsibility for his behavior.  He cannot see the possibilities of a happy life.  Instead, he has what seems like an inner demon that feeds him constantly with negative thoughts.

It has been very interesting to note that in the last year and a half he seems to have very much declined into ongoing bpd behavior.  Before, we was working and I believe that kept his mind occupied.  These days after retiring at an early age, he does not seem to have much of a focus.  I am still working and I plan to continue as my line of work is one I can do into my older years.

I am finding that hearing his list of wrongs I have committed is sounding more like a rehashed list in his mind and less incriminating in my mind. These types of conversations go nowhere and he has proven to me over and over again that this is the case.

My best option at this point is to quit the waiting and wondering if he will get better, to not allow myself to be baited by him and to get on with my life.

Thank you for the encouragement, much appreciated.

[formflier]

Thank you.  In this chain of messages, someone had asked if I should try talking to my husband and if I was stonewalling. This was the reason I decided to try and talk to him.  He proved me wrong again in that he just wants to ramble with his feelings and how bad I make him feel.  On and on and on and on, like a broker record.

Two thoughts. 

1.  I applaud the effort to build bridges and communicate, especially in such different circumstances.

2.  I would suggest that when YOU try to communicate and it's obvious HE is not going to be able to (is a broken record really communicating?), it would be wise to figure out a way to disengage from that conversation, while leaving open the door to a future conversation.

Circular arguments and broken records obviously don't help the relationship.  What do you think you can do in order to limit your exposure to them?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Thank you for the coaching and the inspiration.

Maybe something like, "this conversation is not productive or helpful for me.  I would like to continue this at a different time.  For me, productive or helpful would be problem solving.  When you feel you can focus on problem solving, I am open to a conversation."

I doubt that this will actually happen but at least it would give my husband a way to communicate with me if he desires to work toward a healthy relationship.

I am excited that I am getting the idea of a healthy boundary.  Not rules, as my bpd husband calls them, but a way to freedom from anxiety and stress. And a path to true joy.

[formflier]

Maybe something like, "this conversation is not productive or helpful for me.  I would like to continue this at a different time.  For me, productive or helpful would be problem solving.  When you feel you can focus on problem solving, I am open to a conversation."
 

Just like many pwBPD seem to "have the same playbook"...I sometimes chuckle that many "nons" talk and think the same way. 

I have said almost the exact same thing to my wife.  Quite ineffectively I might add.

Now...I totally understand and appreciate what you are saying, because you are "speaking my language".  Trust me when I say your husband "appears" to speak the same language, yet he actually doesn't.

What you wrote is very rational and thoughtful. 

Is your husband a rational and thoughtful guy?

BPD is (very generally speaking) an inability to regulate emotions.  So...when his emotions are off the rails, trying rational and logical communications styles with him is unlikely to work.

Shorter is better.  Succinct! 

Trust me..he will get lost in all those words.  Every word is ammunition for a dysregulation.

Now...perhaps once you need that long explanation, in a moment when he is calm. 

When he is fired up!  "This conversation is troubling. I'm going to get a glass of water.  I'll be back in 10 minutes."

How is my version different that yours?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Good point!  And really no matter what I say in a moment where he is fired up, then I decide the conversation does not work for me, he comes back and says 'there you go again', or 'your rules' or 'you are controlling'.  No matter what he says these days, at least I am finally getting it when these types of conversations start.

Why, though, at age 62, is he much worse in the area of bpd with regard to seemingly being unable to  regulate himself? I have been told by a therapist and have read that as you age, whatever has been your 'demon' or your issue gets much harder to deal with.  Maybe this it? 

And I love the practical advice, super helpful.

[Cat Familiar]

And really no matter what I say in a moment where he is fired up, then I decide the conversation does not work for me, he comes back and says 'there you go again', or 'your rules' or 'you are controlling'. 

I used to be bothered by those types of comments insinuating that I'm some type of tyrant. I think of myself as someone who is very fair-minded and who wants to see both sides of a situation, so it really hurt to be called "controlling."

But after hearing these unfounded accusations repeatedly, I started owning them. "Yep, that's right," I'd say with a smile.

When those taunts no longer had the desired effect, my husband quit trying to get under my skin with those types of comments.

[formflier]

Much like Cat...comments about me being controlling used to cut deep.

At some point I started wearing them as a badge of honor. 

For me, saying "that's right" didn't work to well.  I kinda stuck with "We don't have to have the same opinion of me."   or  "I don't feel the need to control your inaccurate opinion of me"  or "I'm ok with us having different opinions of me"

sometimes I would then follow up by asking if she wanted me to share my opinion of her.

Lots of trial and error here...the critical thing is to exit circular arguments. 

Two ways

1.  Point out the circular and invite him to leave with you
2.  Leave the circular discussion, even if he decides to stay.  You need to be ok with him having circular, square, triangular...or any other conversation he wants.  Leave him there if that is he choice.  You focus on your conversations.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

A dynamic I often see here between Nons and pwBPD is an implicit power struggle that the Non might be totally unaware of.

Because Nons are often people pleasers, it's easy for them to feel hurt or offended if accused of unkind or thoughtless behavior.

And due to the tendency of pwBPD to feel an unstable sense of self, perhaps it's somewhat comforting to feel that their partner might also feel some sense of insecurity too.

Add in the fact that pwBPD can alternate between extremes of idealization and devaluation of their partner, and it's likely that they will make critical comments about their partner and possibly project traits upon them that may have little basis in fact.

When the Non hears these criticisms, often they will take them on board and examine them for relevancy and accuracy, perhaps feeling badly if they realize that there may be a grain of truth in those statements. In many cases, Nons have experienced criticism in their family of origin and they may readily assume blame and more responsibility than their share.

If then the Non feels diminished by the criticism, the pwBPD might feel more on an equal footing. "See, you're not so perfect."

As I've become more aware of this dynamic, which I've observed in multiple relationships with pwBPD, I've become more resolute in choosing not to participate in this dance. When I've noticed that someone is seemingly attempting to undermine my confidence or "take me down a notch," now my internal dialog responds with, "Isn't this interesting? What do you suppose is going on with this person?"

Becoming aware of the overarching structure has allowed me to step aside and not participate in the automatic rote way that I did previously. It feels good to be at choice and have options.

[formflier]

When I've noticed that someone is seemingly attempting to undermine my confidence or "take me down a notch," now my internal dialog responds with, "Isn't this interesting? What do you suppose is going on with this person?"
 

I have taken to "calling them out", although I often do it in an indirect way.

"Oh my...should I take that as a compliment?"   Leave the uncomfortable thing in their lap. 

And...in the times when my wife would say no..she was being critical, I would stay neutral "Oh I see.  That doesn't work for me at the moment.  I could take you to lunch tomorrow and listen to your criticism then.  Does that work?"

Compare that to the apologies, circular arguments and horror that I went through...before I understood the dynamic.

You'll find something that works for you in your relationship.  Please don't worry if it "works" for your pwBPD.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

CatF and FF have excellent points on handling the circular conversations.

I would like to comment on his BPD behaviors now that he has retired. I think retirement is really involved here, in several ways.

First, your husband's career probably provided a great deal of structure and control that doesn't exist in his retirement.  He is having to find that for himsrlf, and it can be evoking some emotions in him that (surprise) he finds difficult to manage. And you then become the target that allows him to discharge that emotion (frustration, anxiety, anger, etc.).

Also, depending on his attitude toward money, retirement may have escalated his anxiety about family finances, even if it's fine. My DH is a financial advisor, and he sees this a lot.

Are you seeing any of this with him?

[lonely38]

Was balancing the checkbook this morning and found that my husband transferred more money.  This was money from a property management account we have together and he transferred into our personal account, then on to a money market account.  When I asked him about it this morning, his remark was that he thought he had transferred money from my work account.

I told him this was not ok and that if it happens again, I will take action.  He threatened to separate all of our funds.  I think this is him trying to up the control over me as he is seeing me get strong with boundaries.  If he continues with this behavior, I will contact attorney.  I can see where all of our money is at this point and nothing has moved beyond our own personal accounts, including with the financial planner.