SD22 and boundaries

[livednlearned]

That SD22 does this is disruptive of your private time and your marriage. It's really dysfunctional family behavior.

Yes. Do you see my dilemma here? I'm trying to find the third way.

1. I control what I can control: me. This involves self-care, setting limits with what I will and won't do with SD22, communicated to H first, then if those limits are not set, I communicate directly with SD22.

2. I spritz/splash support H's way when it's appropriate. When he begins to experience anxiety or stress about SD22's ways, I provide support.

3. I become the pole of light, no shadows near me. This will almost definitely drive some triangulation behaviors if not done tactfully.

That your husband allows this and participates interferes in her ability to develop tolerance and the ability to self-soothe.

Yes! It is making it less likely that she will be able to handle long-term relationships. With family even. Everyone is pushing her away. Her uBPD mom has been mean about it. "Go get your meds figured out."

A tactic would be for your husband to say, "DD22, LnL and I are going to bed in a few minutes. Do you need to talk about anything before we close the door? I have about 20 minutes."

He does that and he caves on the boundary when she tests it. He'll go to bed then she texts him 10 minutes later. I feel aggravated and keep my mouth shut.

The lighted pole approach would be to say, "You did a terrific job preparing her to be alone before bed. She is testing to see if you will keep soothing her so she doesn't have to. Is answering that text helping her develop good skills in other relationships?"

A strategy would be to find out from her T which tactics will address the self -soothing. Although the SI may need to be the first strategy to be addressed.

The T has said we'll probably be stuck in a holding pattern until H can acknowledge that the SI is real, and to get a family-wide safety plan in place. Because all these other boundaries will probably be tested with SI. I think that's why there is more SI with SD25, her sister -- she sets limits and does a better job sticking to them.

I just have to say this. It feels like a thankless position to be in. Maybe in five years we look back and say, Good job. Right now it feels like I'm poking the bear.

If she doesn't get a job, and her lease is up where she went to school...is there a tentative plan? My bet is that she will expect to move in with you.

If she moves into our home without a job, oof.

We have some other moving parts that make it hard to form a plan, potentially relocating, my son getting healthy, change in jobs for both H and me. So things are in flux. SD22 will get a job. It's a question of whether she'll end up in a tough school with lots of behavioral issues and lots of turnover. 

[GaGrl]

I'm hearing some things about your boundaries now...

When your husband gives her the good-night and then caves -- what is preventing you from shining the light?

And, if DD22 texting after you've gone to bed is violating YOUR peace and quiet, what would happen if YOU were the one responding for the next 3-4 violations? That is, the next text would come from you, saying that her dad has gone to bed and the two of you will see her in the morning, and phone is being turned off.

And where is her BF in all this? Sleeping blissfully, or watching a movie? How does he get off the hook?

LnL, it's a conundrum. I feel for you! It would be making me crazy. Just the excessive hugging would get under my skin.

[livednlearned]

First, I want to thank you guys for sticking with me on this. It means a lot.

When your husband gives her the good-night and then caves -- what is preventing you from shining the light?

Increased conflict. SD22 issues wedged between me and H in our bedroom. Might be what she wants...

if DD22 texting after you've gone to bed is violating YOUR peace and quiet, what would happen if YOU were the one responding for the next 3-4 violations?

That would probably fall under the master jack knife approach.

I have thought about this when it comes to SD22 coming to stay. Asking her to please run it by me at the same time she asks her dad. But in a nice way   . I've thought about saying, "I like to have advance notice so I can plan my calendar. Next time how about give me a heads up. It's good practice for any kind of visit, that way I'll know to make time on my calendar for you."

Then stand back and wait for H's head to explode.

And where is her BF in all this? Sleeping blissfully, or watching a movie? How does he get off the hook?

BF is a new issue. He is on the spectrum and he's very sweet. He has a lot of anxiety and doesn't know what to do, so he defers to SD22. He's kind and I like him. I don't like him arriving before her and I no longer let him in before SD22 is here. I don't entertain him.

If my backbone was all the way grown in I would tell him directly because if he's like my ASD S17, then he would appreciate the concrete instructions.

I feel for you! It would be making me crazy. Just the excessive hugging would get under my skin.

I never thought people hugging would make me bananas.  

[worriedStepmom]

Increased conflict. SD22 issues wedged between me and H in our bedroom. Might be what she wants...

I would argue there are already SD22 issues wedged between the two of you in the bedroom.  Every single time he leaves the bedroom - and you - to solve her crisis of the moment, it's feeding your resentment.  I'm sure he can sense that, too.

I could have advice on baby step boundaries here or there, but it really does sound like it all comes back to "SD22 is suicidal and H is terrified yet doesn't want to address the problem."  Chicken and egg - the SI come out more and therefore can be addressed directly around people with boundaries (like SD25) but H won't implement boundaries because he doesn't want to acknowledge? confront? the SI.

[GaGrl]

I agree -- it always circles back to that fundamental issue.

Again...frustrating.

I do think S22 is manipulative. My fear in talking to her about SI concerns would be that she then uses SI as a manipulation tool, leading to a inability to discern whether it's real or not. So, all SI would have to be taken at a highly serious level with the safety plan kicking in.

(FWIW, LnL, your script for addressing S22 on the visits is spot-on and quite gracious. If H flares at this, he really is in a hyper-sensitive place on this. There are so many considerations to having guests, even outside your availability -- enough food in the house, other supplies needed, make sure clean bed linens and towels are available (after the last visit just five days ago...). Of course, if she's not really a guest, you can tell her to do laundry and make the bed hers elf, and hand her a grocery list.

[formflier]

OK...let's accepts that SI is the critical piece here.

When is hubby's appointment with her T? 

When is the last time that SD22 made an SI comment?

Did that comment get accurately relayed back to her T?  Confirm she has a local T and an T where she lives.  Two Ts.

How long has her meds thing been an issue? 

Trying to put this into words..but basically for someone that some involved Ts are saying is chronically suicidal there seems to be a lot of debate and avoidance of direct communication about what to do...and not much doing

Has SD22 made actual suicide attempts that can't be explained as something else?  When?

Ugg...figured I would create a post just for SI details.  Lots of other stuff I'll think about.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I would argue there are already SD22 issues wedged between the two of you in the bedroom.

 
I guess I have this magical thinking where if I am proactive (e.g. speaking directly to SD22 using effective words when she crosses boundaries), I am somehow causing things to flare. Versus passively having things flare (e.g me staying quiet, dealing with my  resentment in a delayed way).

H won't implement boundaries because he doesn't want to acknowledge? confront? the SI.

He knows. You know that space right after knowing something that is emotionally flooding? I experienced it when I began to prepare for my divorce. He's in that space.  Limbo that is denial/not denial. Lots of baby steps.

SI would have to be taken at a highly serious level with the safety plan kicking in.

I'm working on getting us into an 8 week class for supporting a loved one with SI, hopefully everything lines up and H will commit to going. I think he will. I have said that if I am concerned about SD22's well-being when she's alone with me in the house, I will call 911. He wants me to call him first, and I have said that without a better of understanding of what I'm dealing with, I'm calling 911. So the class is an incentive to put something in place that's evaluated by professionals for our specific situation -- H wants to hear professionals say that it's ok for me to call him first.

When is hubby's appointment with her T?

It's theoretical at this point. For reasons that are complicated to explain here, I know SD22 will never agree. I encouraged H to give SD22 a choice: he goes with her to T together, or he'll see T alone -- SD22 can discuss ground rules with her T before hand.
Basically, inserting myself into their business. If H lets SD22 decide, then nothing will happen.

When is the last time that SD22 made an SI comment?

That I know of, May. I happened to be in the car when SD22's T called H about a billing issue and the T said (paraphrased), "I cannot be SD22's crisis responder because of licensing reasons -- I cannot provide crisis response across state lines. I've had to put a boundary in place for her, and I've encouraged her to call the suicide hotline, which she does regularly and appropriately. I have encouraged her to consider a full evaluation and potential change in diagnosis and she shut down."

I know that's crossing a line of confidentiality for SD22 (adult) but since SI is involved people seem to be willing to say things.  

Confirm she has a local T and an T where she lives.  Two Ts

Two Ts and a psychiatrist. One of the T and the psychiatrist are in her college town. The other T is in our state -- SD22 has seen her since she was 16, after the psychotic episode.

How long has her meds thing been an issue?

I'm not really up to speed on that. I don't think H is either.

there seems to be a lot of debate and avoidance of direct communication about what to do...and not much doing

Correct.

Has SD22 made actual suicide attempts that can't be explained as something else?

No attempts that I know of.

[formflier]

Thanks for info...so she has never taken actual steps to commit suicide?  Am I reflecting that back correctly.

However, she says lots of suggestive things, calls the hotline.  Has she ever made direct, explicit SI threats to family?


Are you and hubby able to turn off phones for bedroom time? 

When is/was the interview?  When is the next interview? 

Have you and hubby ever done T together?

Has hubby ever done individual T? 

Have you ever done a class together?

I'm wondering how/why baby steps are happening when there is SI involved?  Especially when a T is involved (yours) saying splash water..wake people up. 

So..I don't really get a good vibe about how conversations with you and hubby go.  You clearly state that you will call 911..he doesn't agree...you clarify that you will.   (then what happens)

There is debate about hoping to go to a class..at some vague point in the future with an associated hope that SD22 is still alive to implement tools learned from that class.

Let's assume for a minute that your T and you are correct (and I believe that you are..just so you know)

Wouldn't this make more sense...if there really is a concern about suicide.

You have a conversation with hubby..he disagrees and in the same conversation you invite him to a T session with you so that a clear conversation can be had between all involved parties (minus the daughter...).

I would think that given the seriousness of suicide and your Ts concern..she would be flexible. 

I would think you would be flexible about the schedule given your concern.

And you would assume Dad (you hubby) would be flexible..given this is about his daughters life.

Outcomes

Perhaps your T says something that is critical to her decision making that your husband thinks is factually incorrect...the facts are corrected and your T says.."Oh my ..that changes my judgment...my new judgment is..."  (note..I really doubt this would happen...but..it could)

Most likely your T will explain (without you having to relay or play telephone...)  the suicide concern.

Then your husband can respond to that...you can respond.  A frank conversation can be had.

Perhaps you get closer to the same page..perhaps he better understands your boundary...

There certainly would be far less pretending and "waiting" for...

There is so much in these threads to respond to, so it's hard for me to focus on "the main thing".

I do agree, until professionals judge otherwise, that the main thing is suicide. 

We have a T and livednleanred that believe that.  Apparently a SD25 that believes it as well (am I correct)

So...is it really wise to debate bedroom protocol? 

Wouldn't it be wiser to focus enormous amounts of energy to clarify if the adults can be on the same page or not..quickly.

The plan for a class just doesn't seem to jive with suicide.

Either the suicide isn't that big a deal at which point a class is appropriate or it is a big deal..and we need to hurry to something else.

We have a T saying it's a big deal...

I'm having a hard time wrapping up this post...do you see where my mind is going?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

What is my role as a step parent whose adult step child with SI is being enabled by my H?

That's what I'm trying to work out.

SD22 has two Ts and a psychiatrist, a caring grandmother, SD25, her dad, a BF, and to some extent (not much) a uBPD mom.

What is reasonable to expect from me as a step parent when there is SI?

FF, it is helpful that you made the distinction between pretending and rescuing. This post has helped me sort that out.

I get the sense from what people have written here that it's better to:

* be the pole of light (healthy, hard)

versus

* let the family of origin work things out (unhealthy, easier)

I feel a lot of stress about determining on my own how serious the SI is, hence the class. We need professional help. Not just me -- we. Me and H.

Other than that, how do I proceed as the step parent without seriously stressing out my H and by extension, my marriage? Not just stressing him out, but creating a situation where he shuts down (emotional flooding)?

 

she has never taken actual steps to commit suicide?

No.

However, she says lots of suggestive things, calls the hotline.  Has she ever made direct, explicit SI threats to family?

Not to my knowledge. If by direct threats you mean, "I'm going to kill myself."

Are you and hubby able to turn off phones for bedroom time?

Me, yes. Him, no.

When is/was the interview?  When is the next interview?

She was down here for one last Monday. She had a second one in a town 3 hours away on Tuesday. Yesterday she had one. She has another one next Monday.

Have you and hubby ever done T together?

Yes.

Has hubby ever done individual T?

No.

Have you ever done a class together?

Yes. Mindfulness, and mindfulness for parenting.

I'm wondering how/why baby steps are happening when there is SI involved?  Especially when a T is involved (yours) saying splash water..wake people up.

Because I'm uncertain about my role in this. I'm uncertain how to splash water without getting soaked myself. I'm uncertain how to lead this without H's blowback shutting things down further.

You clearly state that you will call 911..he doesn't agree...you clarify that you will.   (then what happens)

I will call 911 if there is no other plan. There is no ambiguity for me. I will call/text him immediately after.

He works at a hospital. He admits patients who come to the ER. I want him to come up with a better plan if going to the ER will not (as he says) have a good outcome for SD22. I want him to be proactive and lead this, and he is for whatever reason, emotional or psychological, not able to do that right now.

You have a conversation with hubby..he disagrees and in the same conversation you invite him to a T session with you so that a clear conversation can be had between all involved parties (minus the daughter...).

That's wading into the family very deep on a super deep issue. That's my question.

Like a lot of step parents here, there is wishful thinking that my partner will take the reins if I just do xyz.

you would assume Dad (you hubby) would be flexible..given this is about his daughters life.

We all know people on these boards, if we aren't those people ourselves, who can stand inside a ring of fire and wonder if anyone else smells smoke. H is like that about SD22. He has BPD in his FOO, a uBPD ex, a uBPD child. Plus a history of being the white knight. So fixing and saving and rescuing without having a healthy plan.

I do agree, until professionals judge otherwise, that the main thing is suicide.

Every professional involved says SD22's SI is red hot, yes. She may not make an attempt right now. She has all the red flags for one eventually.

So...is it really wise to debate bedroom protocol?

 
Meaning?

Wouldn't it be wiser to focus enormous amounts of energy to clarify if the adults can be on the same page or not..quickly.

I've done a C+ job (maybe B) on getting the page in front of H. Sometimes I feel like I'm being asked to pick up his hands and make them do the dialing and typing.  

The plan for a class just doesn't seem to jive with suicide.

The class/support group is recommended by my T. It's one piece of it.

Either the suicide isn't that big a deal at which point a class is appropriate or it is a big deal..and we need to hurry to something else

All arrows seem to be pointing to taking over because H has hit the snooze button.

I'm having a hard time wrapping up this post

I am too  

...do you see where my mind is going?

S%*t or get off the pot?

[formflier]

LNL,

You are doing great at this post (a very difficult one I might add).  There is no way to be succinct with such a complex issue.

I'll come back later and try to address each of your responses.


If you ask your husband to turn off his phone for 2 hours so you can be intimate (whatever that entails for you guys)...can that happen.  

Or...

Would he stop (whatever the activity) to deal with a text from daughter in next room who is obviously NOT having an emergency.


Not exactly suggest "sh&t or get off the pot" but that the response should match the level of professional concern (and your personal concern that matches)

Do you see how to outsiders it looks odd that SI is the main issue and to deal with that you are hoping at some point in the future you are your hubby will enroll in a class together.

There is worry about stress on hubby by moving faster.

How would an actual successful suicide affect your husbands stress level?

If you goal is to be kind and give your husband the least amount of stress, what is your likely best course of action?  (I don't see a course of action with no stress..such is life)

Ok...LNL..this is us talking.  We've covered hard questions.  They are likely to get harder.

Given the dysfunction in your husbands family is it likely he would recover from an actual suicide?

Given the dysfunction in your husbands family is it likely he can recover from a "splashing" spouse intent on waking him up to an impending suicide?

Of those two very hard questions, is it more likely than he can recover from one of those scenarios than the other?  

   
 

I'm so sorry to have had to ask those.  Given the gravity of the situation and my encouraging you to have hard conversations...I should "take the same advice".

Have you or has your husband been close to someone that actually committed suicide?  Is there family history on either side?

I'm going to suggest you are overthinking the step parent role.  This is about humanity isn't it?

The step parent discussion would seem appropriate for the hugging thing, the texting thing and all that.

Is it really appropriate given that we are talking about life and death?  I obviously come down on one side of the question (life wins)...it is a legitimate question to give an enormous amount of thought to.


Best,

FF

[Panda39]

So you are simultaneously trying to get DH in a healthier place, his D too, as well as create boundaries that protect you, and maintain a happy marriage, and take care of your own son, that's a lot to take on.  Is that yours to take on?  What do you control?  What if they are too entrenched in their past dynamic/behaviors?  Can you maybe tackle this in smaller pieces?  Is there anything you are pushing for that you can let go of...maybe radical acceptance, maybe to pick up again later?

What is my role as a step parent whose adult step child with SI is being enabled by my H?

 

I guess this depends on you, what do you want it to be? You could do or not do a lot of things, you could just let your DH parent his daughter and be a support to him while he supports her and do your own thing. You could provide an alternative opinion/viewpoint/way to do things and let them pick and choose what advice the pick up or not. You could push your DH to work on co-parenting from the same page/united front (based on what you've told us this could be a lengthy process and he has to have a willingness to make changes).  You could just let it all go (radically accept their dynamic) and do what you need to do for yourself like set boundaries that work for you...

I get how hard this is I was in a similar place.  My Partner's daughters hated me, were incredibly mean to me, for that matter at the time they felt that way about their dad too.  I wanted nothing to do with them or they with me...but it was a package deal.  I'll be honest I was close to walking away at that time...too much drama with the kids and the ex.  But I just couldn't throw the baby (my partner) out with the bathwater (the rest of his family).  What we did was take a break from all that, I didn't spend much time visiting with him when his daughters were around we focused on strengthening our relationship and then began slowly re-introducing me into the mix a little at a time. I know your situation is different, more intrusive but I do understand how hard it is to love someone with difficult family members that cause stress in your relationship.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

ask husband to turn off his phone for 2 hours so you can be intimate (whatever that entails for you guys)...can that happen.

 

That happens if we're intimate because guess who doesn't feel like being intimate when SD22 is blowing up a phone next to her head   We also have a phone truce when it comes to going out for a nice dinner. Other than that, it's a free-for-all, mostly.

Would he stop (whatever the activity) to deal with a text from daughter in next room who is obviously NOT having an emergency.

He's sort of doing this, A for effort. It's hard to convey how many texts are coming...it's excessive. He tries to talk to her during his commute so he can come home and relax. If she's really dysregulated, she will call 4-5 times.

Do you see how to outsiders it looks odd that SI is the main issue and to deal with that you are hoping at some point in the future you are your hubby will enroll in a class together.

Yes. My conflict is whether it's me who leads this or him. I am putting the page in front of him, and he is saying, Ok, Got this. We'll do a class. I'll talk to the T. SD22 will get a job and this will all go away. SD25 can handle her sister.

Then nothing happens other than talk.

How would an actual successful suicide affect your husbands stress level?

I know, right?

SD22's well-being is tied to the whole family. No one goes through this without being impacted for life. We are all stressed by this. We are all stressed by SD22. I have no illusions about the disaster for our family if SD22 doesn't get the right help.

I'm going to suggest you are overthinking the step parent role.

Thanks for being so blunt. That's essentially what I'm trying to figure out.

I think I get it.

The step parent discussion would seem appropriate for the hugging thing, the texting thing and all that.

The honest honest honest truth is that I want H to step up and do his job. She's his kid and he's underwater with her. I have been waving my hands, jumping up and down, playing charades. And I have some pity partying going on. I'm so tired of BPD dynamics. Not the BPD sufferer so much as the family dysfunction around it.

I'm trying to say to H that I'm in his lane because it's about SD22's safety and well-being. The step dynamic makes it seem like I'm singling out SD22. He is protective of her.

He doesn't see that I am too. I can be protective of me, protective of our marriage, protective of her safety, protective of our family -- all at the same time.

Thanks for helping me work through this. I'm feeling reluctant.

I needed a long-winded pep talk  

[livednlearned]

What do you control?

I control a lot less than I can say. I could possibly say more.

Can you maybe tackle this in smaller pieces?  Is there anything you are pushing for that you can let go of...maybe radical acceptance, maybe to pick up again later?

Smaller pieces is sort of how I've been doing things.

The incident that set off this post, saying to H in the heat of the moment, "No, it's not ok that SD22 invited BF to stay and he's already on his way without checking with us first" is the first time I've dropped a boom pow in the heat of the moment. H was in a tailspin for the rest of the night.
 

you could just let your DH parent his daughter and be a support to him while he supports her and do your own thing. You could provide an alternative opinion/viewpoint/way to do things and let them pick and choose what advice the pick up or not. You could push your DH to work on co-parenting from the same page/united front (based on what you've told us this could be a lengthy process and he has to have a willingness to make changes).  You could just let it all go (radically accept their dynamic) and do what you need to do for yourself like set boundaries that work for you...

Check, check and check   I've been doing all that and I could continue doing it, chipping away at things, adapting to SD22 as things come up. H slowly but steadily working together with me.

I do understand how hard it is to love someone with difficult family members that cause stress in your relationship.

This one has taken me to the mat.

I need to sort out what is urgent (SI), what is necessary, and what is desirable. Then look at what I can control, what I can influence, and what I am willing to do.

[GaGrl]

A comment on your paraphrase of your H's attitude toward DD22...

DD22 may get a job, but all will not then be fine, nor will "all this" be over.

DD22 will be entering her first adult job. There will be rules and expectations. She will feel inadequate and will be confused over what to do, how to approach things. She will be observed and will be given constructive criticism on how to improve her classroom skills. She will be agitated and is not able to self-soothe.

Your H's phone will continue to blow up.

What will her SI look like then?

He is indulging in magical thinking.

[formflier]

 
Then nothing happens other than talk.
 

OK...how can you change your talks to they are no longer ineffective?

How can you change the talk to be more clear and create accountability?  (hint...mutual agreement that you will be updated within 24 hours...or other clear deadline)

It appears we are on the same page that we are talking about SD22s life...we are not talking about blowing up phone, hugging and all that.

For clarity I completely support your deference and thinking (even over-thinking...since I can easily overthink..especially new stuff) for all...ALL EXCEPT ...suicide

It's like watching someone break into a house next door and having a debate through the mail (with mail getting lost) about who is appropriate to sound the alarm/call 911.  (hoping the analogy works)

In FF book certain things rise to "humanity" level and you looking at yourself in the mirror later and saying...did I do the right thing.  Especially if you have to do this...heaven forbid...while picking up the pieces of your life after a successful SD22 suicide.

Another poster wisely asked what you control.  You control your actions...your mouth...your fingers that dial digits and type out emails...etc etc.

You are aware that another human is toying with suicide.  You are also aware that a professional that you trust has heard the details...and is suggesting that YOU are not doing enough...not splashing enough water.  (do I have this right?)  That same professional is also saying others aren't doing enough...but she isn't treating them..advising them.    

So...here is the thing.  Most of the time the "point of view" needs to be flipped in BPDish situations.

Right now everyone is "scared" of SD22 and suicide.  

Wouldn't life be better/healthier if everyone was scared of LnL shining a light?  You can't control what they do about suicide..you control you.  A likely outcome is that suicide doesn't get fixed...but everyone is scared for you to find out about it..because you will (take action).

A likely outcome is that some of the people involved will move to a healthier place...

Do you see the "flip"?  I realize you don't want people to be "scared" of you.  

Hushing for a bit.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Hey...important question.

Have you or has hubby's FOO experienced actual suicide?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

DD22 may get a job, but all will not then be fine, nor will "all this" be over.

He is indulging in magical thinking.

That seems to be the consensus.

He is like a split screen. There are times when it is emotionally safe enough and he says things that tell me he gets it.

Then he ducks back under the covers.

One surprise in all this: SD25 told H she thought her sister had quiet BPD. He told me.

I said, "I'm impressed that you are embracing the possibility she might have BPD.

Him: "I'm not saying I embrace it. I'm saying I'm open to considering it."

Maybe the thing I need to see here is that little pushes are met with pushback, even though the overall momentum is largely forward.

I wish all this effort guaranteed that next lifetime I get to be born into a healthy family  


 

[livednlearned]

how can you change your talks to they are no longer ineffective?

I go all family law court on boundaries

Jk.

But not really.

I can say, "Let's come up with a solution for x and a deadline. If the deadline comes and that solution isn't in place, let's talk about what then. Let's keep this moving forward, we're making good progress. For example: I will have a sit down/text directly with SD22 and help her with these social skills."

Me talking directly to SD22 is an incentive for H to do something.

I guess that's an ultimatum  

It appears we are on the same page that we are talking about SD22s life...we are not talking about blowing up phone, hugging and all that.

The SI is in its own category. The other stuff might flow from some of the things we do to handle the SI.

With SI: There is the fear that she will suffer an adult-sized setback (break up, struggles in her job) and make an attempt.
The other fear is she uses SI unskillfully to get emotional needs met.

I suspect she is testing out the latter one. Although my T said these tend to be people who attempt suicide "by accident." Loved ones stop taking SI seriously so the sufferer keeps increasing the severity until something happens by accident.

certain things rise to "humanity" level and you looking at yourself in the mirror later and saying...did I do the right thing.

I really appreciate the clarity you'll all helped me get on this.

ns...your mouth...your fingers that dial digits and type out emails...etc etc.

You are also aware that a professional that you trust has heard the details...and is suggesting that YOU are not doing enough...

Yes.

Wouldn't life be better/healthier if everyone was scared of LnL shining a light?  

A likely outcome is that some of the people involved will move to a healthier place...

I see the flip.

It's the degrees with which I do this.

Right now I am, like you said earlier, spritzing and splashing.

I'm hoping there is something between that and master jack knife.

Have you or has hubby's FOO experienced actual suicide?

No directly in our families.

H works at a hospital.

He sees more humanity (in that sense) than me.

[worriedStepmom]

I went master jack knife last night.  It worked, primarily because my husband was tired of dealing with things and relieved I would take over.  I have completely stepped over the stepparent boundary and am now dealing with things that he should be dealing with.  He just can't, and he's accepted that - although he still thinks my plan will fail.  One big difference in our cases is that I am focused on the outward threat (SD's mom) and you have an inside threat (SD's threat to ourself).

Even so, I think you need to go master jack knife.  If your H is this emotionally flooded, then someone needs to step in, and it sounds like you are the only one who can.

My first husband's sister committed suicide.  He and I had to tell his mother and grandmother.  His parents' marriage collapsed, and his mother completely withdrew into herself for several years.  She couldn't even leave the house to go to the store.  It was a nightmare I would not wish on any family.

[GaGrl]

The "testing" using SI had occurred to me. She is quite manipulative with the hugging and texting -- that's pretty "in your face" stuff. It could be the SI tests her sister more, even perhaps her therapist -- perhaps because those two don't respond to hugs and texts? It might be an escalated manipulation, or not. But yes -- it has to be treated as real, even if she ends up with a 911 consequence.

So when we first married, I went master jack knife a couple of times without knowing I was even wading into DH's family dysfunctionality. I was presented with some situations where my reaction was an immediate "Not in this house, we don't" kind of thing (imagine tone of voice somewhere between firm and WTF). DH's adult children were so oblivious to how things are done in other ( "normal, non-manipulative) families. His daughter was so depressed and had checked out of child-rearing, and DH was acting as a 55 year old Daddy. I didn't sign up to marry all that. Glad to be an instant Mimi, not glad to raise a 4-year-old while her mom sits on her a**.

But if we were going to live together, you know...house rules.

[Panda39]

The question to me then becomes, if LNL does the master jack-knife does her hubby react the same way as worriedstepmom's DH by just getting out of the way because he's too pooped to play anymore making it a 2 way conversation between LNL and SD or have we jumped on the triangle...LNL the Persecutor, DH the Rescuer, SD the victim and again what is LNL's responsibility here?  Is it her responsibility to do the master jack-knife just because she can? Is this the best approach?  It could be.  I get the absolute frustration of tip-toeing around the elephant in the room.



Panda39

[livednlearned]

if LNL does the master jack-knife does her hubby react the same way as worriedstepmom's DH by just getting out of the way because he's too pooped to play anymore

He's not going to get out of the way -- you're right that a triangle will take shape. SD22 will run to H.

I (hope) I have some things working for me: H knows I can be diplomatic/gracious whatever you want to call it. He knows that SD22 distorts things. And I have said no more triangulating.

what is LNL's responsibility here?  Is it her responsibility to do the master jack-knife just because she can? Is this the best approach?  It could be.  I get the absolute frustration of tip-toeing around the elephant in the room.

I think I have to define goals and set deadlines for action. And then follow the decision tree from there. Otherwise our blended family is going to stay stuck in this whirlpool.

I don't know if it's driven responsibility or humanity or fatigue or all three.

I have to get better at responding in the moment, like what happened with the houseguest moment.

I have to get more comfortable expressing my values through the specific situations that come up.

[formflier]

The "testing" using SI had occurred to me. She is quite manipulative with the hugging and texting -- that's pretty "in your face" stuff. It could be the SI tests her sister more, even perhaps her therapist -- perhaps because those two don't respond to hugs and texts?

This is the most likely thing if you were going to push me to make a "best guess".  She seems so clutzy with her manipulation that I would expect her first actual attempt at suicide (going by prior report of no actual try)...to be just as clutzy. 

That is what scares me the most here  If I detected a very smooth operator here..someone that thinks through manipulation...I would be "more comfortable" (I know..weird to say about suicide)... that she could "toy around" with it without actually being successful. 

I see someone that would "intend" to manipulate/scare and not give a second thought to how many pills...or how hard to slash...or...  and then they actually commit suicide when they just wanted attention.

Again...all of that was my best guess.

More important that my or anyone else posting analysis on these boards is that there is a respected T that is consistently pushing for more "splashing" and is raising alarm bells.

And LnL is very concerned as well (apparently before T pushed hard as well).

Many posters are appropriately raising the question of what is the role..is (x) appropriate and I want to suggest that the questions are important to ask and answer with clarity.

For me:  I would be "on the other side" of the fence for just about any other issue.  "Other side of the fence" being LnL respects boundaries...let's hubby figure this out badly..etc etc.  (that works for texting, hugging and all these other issues)

I just don't think it works (or is appropriate tactic) for suicide.  No do overs.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  Is it her responsibility to do the master jack-knife just because she can? Is this the best approach?  It could be.  I get the absolute frustration of tip-toeing around the elephant in the room.

It appears to me it's her responsibility to do it because her T, who we'll have to trust has a better handle on the actual danger, is pushing for a "bigger splash".

All of these questions could be good to clarify with her T, although I get the sense T has been pushing this for a bit.  (LnL...am I correct here?)

Best,

FF

[formflier]

My first husband's sister committed suicide.  He and I had to tell his mother and grandmother.  His parents' marriage collapsed, and his mother completely withdrew into herself for several years.  She couldn't even leave the house to go to the store.  It was a nightmare I would not wish on any family.

WorriedStepmom,

I'm so sorry you had to experience that.  Revealing a death of a loved one is an experience...a turning point.  I remember the faces and the tones and wouldn't want anyone to ever experience that.

The Navy has a policy that you will find out about the death of your loved one in person (not a phone call...or letter).  So...a knock on the door and an unexpected Naval Officer in full dress uniform isn't good news (doesn't necessarily mean the Sailor is dead).  (if there is a chance to rush family to bedside for last words..we'll do it via phone (sometimes) because of timeline issues.)

Anyway...the point is I've notified families of death under "normal" circumstances and it's hard.  (not minimizing the pain at all here)

I've also notified families of death by suicide.  The experiences are completely different.  From my observation, there is the pain of loss and also pain of betrayal.  (the "how could "he/she" do that question).  It's really hard to describe..but the pain is "exponentially worse" from my observation/experience that "normal" death.

https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/support/casualty/caco/Pages/default.aspx

The CACO process can take up to a year, even longer if there are investigations and reports.  So I was able to follow how these families "coped".  Again...death is hard.  The handful of suicide cases I have been involved in ALL seemed to have massively more impact.

I've also had the experience of stepping in and sending Sailors to medhold.  Basically if they make some sort of SI comment I send them to medical and professionals sort it out.  That's not a fun task...but 100% of those Sailors survived the experience.  Again..a bigger handful...5-10 is the number I'm remembering.

Last...a guy I consider a friend, colleague and much better pilot that I am successfully committed suicide on a deployment to the middle east.  I flew with him for almost 10 years..literally hundreds of hours together in an airplane...lived with him on deployment and I would never..ever have believed he would do such a thing.

The system failed him...he indicated having trouble coping and was sent to his room to chill out..alone.  They found him when he didn't check in on time the next day.  He was not deployed with the squadron.  

All of his squadron mates (me included) spent years questioning whether one more conversation...or probing question...or...(fill in the blank) could have helped.  He had a large family (almost as big as mine).  Massive impact.

Ugg

Obviously an emotional experience for me...and I'm also a guy that "thinks" first.  So..when my personal experience is 100% survival rate when SI is "properly addressed" and when it was not properly addressed with my squadron mate..and he is now dead.

Well...that speaks volumes to me and informs my "stance" that I take in pushing posters to "take action" and let the system work.

LnL..I realize ours is an "online relationship".  I feel like I know you and I'm certainly indebted to you because I organized my "book of doom" along the lines of how you organized for your divorce case (binders, tabs and all that).  Thankfully I only had to show that book to mental health professionals and never had to go to court with it.  Who knows how those meetings would have gone had I not had your example to follow..and actually followed it.  I'm very glad I followed your advice/example.

My long winded way of saying I care for/about you and wish the best for you and your family.  We are a family of sorts online here.

So...thank you and I wouldn't/couldn't live with myself if I didn't push you hard to follow your Ts advice...and do some serious splashing about suicide.

1.  Be thankful you haven't experienced it.
2.  Realize that YOU have a large amount of control on making sure that YOU never do experience the effects of suicide.
3.  Realize time is not your friend here.  
4.  Realize your hubby isn't likely to get this done, even with some serious pushes/splashes from you.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I think the board fairies will be splitting this post soon so I'm going to respond in this thread...

You've all helped me figure out where to focus and I'm grateful for that.  

[Scarlet Phoenix]

And the thread is locked. The discussion continues in the thread linked in the post above.