Holding pattern until Monday

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Continuation of https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337585.0

Met with support group leader earlier this week. Group is on summer break but will probably start up again in the fall. It's through a local Baptist church (I'm not Baptist) and so they have a curriculum they go through. DH went to meet the leader, too, which was good. We're on the same page that it could be a good group for (a) practicing communication skills, (b) feeling "not alone", (c) learning from other parents/stepparents, and (d) feeling spiritually supported.

Theologically we are quite different but I don't think that is the hugest obstacle. We haven't gone to a "mainstream" church in a long, long time, but those Baptists are pretty welcoming   

Probably the biggest hurdle with attending the group would be that DH and I are still in a "grey zone" about pronoun use. I read the curriculum book and the take-home message was "no debate, use desired pronouns". It's just a sticky wicket because I suspect the viewpoint is coming from "Dad and Mom have 2.5 kids and go to church every Sunday, now our child has come out, what do we do?" A very "nuclear family" background where there are no other contributing conflicts.

I do truly get the perspective that at the end of the day, you love your kid the best you can, accept them, and refrain from blame, accusation, punishment, etc. I'm 110% on board with that. I'm still working through pronoun use, though, because my gut feeling is that there's something wrapped up in that related to the conflict between the kids' two houses -- if that makes sense. That "the issue" isn't really "the issue" and so jumping right to "solving the issue" leaves a lot unaddressed. Not saying "I won't", and not saying "I will". Saying "I still need to think about this".

I looked for a PFLAG group in our city, and weirdly, it doesn't have one. It's not that small of a place. It is quite liberal, though, so perhaps the thinking is "mission accomplished, start groups elsewhere"? I looked to see if GLAAD sponsored anything, but didn't see any groups. Any other organizations that may have groups that I haven't thought of?

So, support-group-wise, it's the Baptists plus y'all at this point. Power team! 

...

We're meeting with the kids' C and then our C on Monday, so no updates from them yet. I hope to have some definite next steps after those meetings, because right now it just feels like "circling the airport".

...

DH & I spent 1x1 time with SD13 a few days ago. Kept it positive, loving, hugs, etc. Dinner & ice cream and a movie, then did hair and DH read out loud. SD13 spent the night. It's interesting, the midweek overnights have been framed as "optional" (and aren't in the PP), but SD13 wants to stay. So that's a good thing.

...

We do need to work on something that the group leader mentioned when we met with her -- it's important to check in to see if kids are thinking of hurting themselves. I haven't picked up on any "clues" from SD13 but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the conversation. Thinking of starting it with "have any of your friends talked about hurting themselves"? Or maybe if it comes up in a movie, bring it up? SD13 keeps sketch journals and nothing really dark has shown up, but we do need to check up. I think it was a study I posted here that said that trans kids have a 50% risk of a suicide attempt?

Any ideas on starting that conversation?

...

DH didn't end up emailing Stepdad back. I think DH has calmed down from being very activated and is more OK with waiting and being strategic. We'll talk to the kids' C about what type of communication back, if any, would be best for the kids.

...

Taking a mini-vacation with the kids this weekend. Still planning to keep it "light" and not all about SD13. Still lots of love and acceptance. Wish us luck.

[kells76]

Continuation of https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337585.0

Met with support group leader earlier this week. Group is on summer break but will probably start up again in the fall. It's through a local Baptist church (I'm not Baptist) and so they have a curriculum they go through. DH went to meet the leader, too, which was good. We're on the same page that it could be a good group for (a) practicing communication skills, (b) feeling "not alone", (c) learning from other parents/stepparents, and (d) feeling spiritually supported.

Theologically we are quite different but I don't think that is the hugest obstacle. We haven't gone to a "mainstream" church in a long, long time, but those Baptists are pretty welcoming   

Probably the biggest hurdle with attending the group would be that DH and I are still in a "grey zone" about pronoun use. I read the curriculum book and the take-home message was "no debate, use desired pronouns". It's just a sticky wicket because I suspect the viewpoint is coming from "Dad and Mom have 2.5 kids and go to church every Sunday, now our child has come out, what do we do?" A very "nuclear family" background where there are no other contributing conflicts.

I do truly get the perspective that at the end of the day, you love your kid the best you can, accept them, and refrain from blame, accusation, punishment, etc. I'm 110% on board with that. I'm still working through pronoun use, though, because my gut feeling is that there's something wrapped up in that related to the conflict between the kids' two houses -- if that makes sense. That "the issue" isn't really "the issue" and so jumping right to "solving the issue" leaves a lot unaddressed. Not saying "I won't", and not saying "I will". Saying "I still need to think about this".

I looked for a PFLAG group in our city, and weirdly, it doesn't have one. It's not that small of a place. It is quite liberal, though, so perhaps the thinking is "mission accomplished, start groups elsewhere"? I looked to see if GLAAD sponsored anything, but didn't see any groups. Any other organizations that may have groups that I haven't thought of?

So, support-group-wise, it's the Baptists plus y'all at this point. Power team! 

...

We're meeting with the kids' C and then our C on Monday, so no updates from them yet. I hope to have some definite next steps after those meetings, because right now it just feels like "circling the airport".

...

DH & I spent 1x1 time with SD13 a few days ago. Kept it positive, loving, hugs, etc. Dinner & ice cream and a movie, then did hair and DH read out loud. SD13 spent the night. It's interesting, the midweek overnights have been framed as "optional" (and aren't in the PP), but SD13 wants to stay. So that's a good thing.

...

We do need to work on something that the group leader mentioned when we met with her -- it's important to check in to see if kids are thinking of hurting themselves. I haven't picked up on any "clues" from SD13 but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the conversation. Thinking of starting it with "have any of your friends talked about hurting themselves"? Or maybe if it comes up in a movie, bring it up? SD13 keeps sketch journals and nothing really dark has shown up, but we do need to check up. I think it was a study I posted here that said that trans kids have a 50% risk of a suicide attempt?

Any ideas on starting that conversation?

...

DH didn't end up emailing Stepdad back. I think DH has calmed down from being very activated and is more OK with waiting and being strategic. We'll talk to the kids' C about what type of communication back, if any, would be best for the kids.

...

Taking a mini-vacation with the kids this weekend. Still planning to keep it "light" and not all about SD13. Still lots of love and acceptance. Wish us luck.

[livednlearned]

How'd it go?

That's great SD13 wants to continue staying the night with you 

I only have experience with one kid on this topic, so take it with a grain of salt...but I would let slide the psychological reasons for the gender stuff and focus on the strong possibility she will outgrow it.

Because in the end what you are saying is that she is questioning her identity due to family systems dynamics and not because she is a he.

So you know/suspect that her motivations are tied to something psychological rather than something biological.

I have a friend whose daughter is transitioning to male and she has a remarkable ability to avoid pronouns altogether.

The silver lining for your situation is that bio mom is discouraging hormones, so this can all remain cautious until SD13 gets through puberty.

[Bluemoon23]

Hello Kells

I have a 23 year old trans nonbinary kid and the pronouns are super important to them. It's a struggle for me and I try and I do the best I can to self-correct but it's hard.

I do know and see there are tons of trans support here where I live and I'm wondering if there is a trans support network where you are at all? I attended PFLAG meetings and found them super worthwhile and helpful. My kid also attended a few. I downloaded something in my area yesterday should I or them need extra support.

As for the suicide stuff I'm a volunteer Crisis Responder for the Canadian Crisis Textline and we are trained to ask right out. Often how we do it is when they share how they are feeling and what has happened we will ask: "Sometimes when people experience that they also have thoughts about death and dying. Are you having any of those kinds of thoughts right now?" And then we talk about how they have helped themselves to feel better or push through so they feel they have the skills that they can cope.

You could also talk about a safety plan and how to keep safe - steps/people/things they can do to push through those thoughts and find themselves feeling heard and supported.

Hope this helps your journey.

[babyducks]

When I came out to my mother as a lesbian,  44 years ago,  I was told that it was just a phase.    Not to talk about it because certainly I would out grow it.

I was also told / asked if I was doing 'this' to gain attention in a difficult house hold.    Or if I was trying to hurt my parents.

None of that was proven true for me.   

Times have changed a lot in the last 40 years.  People's reactions have changed some. 

The suicide attempt rate for transgender individuals is very high.  You can break the numbers down by male to female about 50%.   Female to male about 30%.   72% of transgender youths self harm.

Bluemoon is correct,   pronouns are indeed very important.     Because I am in the LGBT community I probably see this more than most.   Recently we lost a member of our community because of the pronoun, dead name issue.     Her mother couldn't make the switch to a new name and different pronouns.  Our member suicided by handcuffing herself to the handle bars of her bike and riding into the local lake.

I'm not saying that will happen for you.    I am sharing her story to illustrate how important pronouns and names are.

'ducks

[livednlearned]

The Trevor Project is also a great resource.

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/

[kells76]

Thanks for checking in.

Our C had to reschedule, so no updates there.

The day before our appt with the kids' C, Mom texted DH to ask what he was going to talk about (because she gets the appt updates, too). DH just said "working on being a better parent", to which Mom said "ok". Then she said that she and Stepdad were actually meeting with a different C (male, not female) at the same office, someone they thought would be a good resource for SD13 "after puberty" (?).

I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, at least they're staying with the same office, and at least they're meeting with a C, and at least there's a possibility that SD13 may eventually see someone at some point.

On the other hand, it "smells" like "advocate shopping" and another move to shut DH out of the loop and position themselves as the ones who really listen to SD13 and care about what SD13 wants. Mom texted DH that they had asked SD13 if she was OK with them seeing this C, and SD13 gave the OK. 

So DH and I met with the kids' original C. Basically, she said she sees a LOT of middle schoolers going through gender identity changes and selections, often with a profound lack of understanding of what it really means. She mentioned one kid who, after going to a Pride parade, said she wanted to be a lesbian "because they were just so happy all the time", and she, too, wanted happiness all the time.

As an aside, that's not to say that DH and I plan to tell SD13 that how she feels is (as babyducks put it) "just a phase" and that she will "out grow it", as those stances would kill the relationship (And I don't think SD13 is doing this "to hurt us" either). How should I know how SD13's life will turn out, anyway?

I think the C brought up that story to show that there's a LOT going on with 13 year olds, including really struggling with understanding what they even want or why they want things, and that's normal at that age to not know who you are or what you're all about.

We were all on the same page that SD13 has a uniquely tricky personality -- actually super sensitive at the core, but with some major "prickles" on the outside. When SD13 senses a "heels dug in" opposing viewpoint, her reaction is to basically bulldoze it to the ground. She is a deep thinker and/but also pretty strongly reactive, and has a tendency to be provocative (intellectually/verbally) in how she phrases things. Again, going back to what babyducks mentioned, is this necessarily about SD13 "gaining attention in a difficult household"? Whether yes or no or maybe, the fact is that SD13 does a LOT of things in an attention-getting/reaction-provoking way, not just gender/sexuality conversations. I can't remember if I mentioned this before, but SD13 is an avowed atheist/agnostic, while DH and I are not. We do go to church but have emphasized to SD13 that she is not required to listen, pay attention, go to the kids' group, or even go with us at all. SD13 usually turns down the offer to stay home because she doesn't want to be lonely. So she sits with us and draws or works on HW. Anyway, a few months ago we were walking in to church and SD13 was laughing a bit, then said "I can't even say it, oh my gosh, I shouldn't say this, but I SO want to wear a shirt here that says 'I swear to God I'm not religious'". So I was like, "Sure, you'd fit right in, this is kind of a church of rejects" (short story a lot of us were kicked out of other churches) and said if she wanted to save up and buy a shirt like that, it'd be fine to wear here. Reaction potential went from 10 to 0 and she hasn't asked about it again.

So, anyway, what we took away from meeting with the C was not to make our position about SD13's gender a huge "brick wall" that would just invite conflict and reaction; instead, when it comes up, to have her do the work of exploring her own feelings and thoughts about herself. I.e., if SD13 says... IDK, something she thinks we don't agree with, instead of DH and I reacting with "Not in this house"/"You don't really mean it"/"You don't really feel that way" type statements, instead to invite her to explore her feelings with "How do you think that will go for you"/"What was that like" type conversations. So it's really not about our reactions or (I think this is the core) bickering about who is right or wrong. It's about giving SD13 a place to do some more thinking about what's important and describing her experience.

In terms of the specifics of pronoun use, C suggested that DH just be honest about where he's at, because we're on the same page that SD13 has a pretty sensitive "BS detector" and can kind of sense when someone is talking around an issue. So DH should just give it to her directly: "You know, I'm definitely struggling with this request. It might take me a while and I might really fumble with it." Not to focus on "I'm not going to do it" but not to pretend that "everything is just fine!"

The bottom line was to keep the relationship no matter what. That seems to be a message consistent across all groups and perspectives.

...

DH wasn't going to raise the communication problems with the C because he did acknowledge that she had emphasized NOT being a coparent counselor. Which is true. So then I pulled a "stepmom" and brought up the communication problems 

I phrased it as "I need help understanding what I can do differently to get stuff done for the kids, because it's really feeling like when we communicate with Mom, it turns into a situation where she can feel good about herself at our expense." I said I was feeling stuck with how to get out of this weird communication triangle and how to not feel like I was putting the kids in the middle of communications.

The C did say that at 13, kids are moving towards managing parent relationships more on their own. I can see how that's true, but I'm not totally on board with SD13 doing that, just because for so many years SD13 was totally overempowered ("You don't have to go with DH if you don't want to") so I'm not excited about going right back to SD13 spending time with DH "if she wants to" or relying only on SD13 to know if she did math this week, etc. And yet, the truth of the situation is that Mom and Stepdad are not, and really haven't ever been interested in, coparenting. They're interested in sole-parenting, with DH and I as annoying hangers-on that they accommodate out of their magnanimity. So if the truth is that they do not want to coordinate or coparent, then it's kind of my problem if the way I reach out to Mom is "Hey, let's share information and come to an agreement in the middle of our positions -- how about we each acknowledge each other's efforts for the kids". That's magical thinking on my part.

So the C had me describe situations where I tried different communication styles with Mom. I could see that things went better when instead of "asking and waiting" (magical thinking, we can cooperate), I just "decided and informed". The C thinks that Mom actually responds better to people in positions of strength and decisiveness. My plan is that while I won't actively seek out situations to "be strong" towards Mom, if times come up where she and I need to do something, then I just do it and get it done, instead of waiting for her to give me the OK.

A lot is on DH here. He acknowledged that dreams of coparenting were flimsy and unreal -- that it was the truth that Mom didn't want to coparent. Neither of us want to go through the kids to get info, so I suggested, and he is open to, just bypassing Mom and going to school/doctor/friends' parents himself. This will be a big change for him and it is triggering for him. If any of you have been reading LnL's threads about stepparenting her SD22, the dynamic with DH and I is sort of similar -- DH needs to step up and be strong and assertive (though with Mom/Stepdad vs with a kid), and it's very difficult and a huge change, and what seems like it should be "just business/just get it done" to me is very emotional to him.

Oh, and DH did share Stepdad's wacky email with the C. Her succinct comment was "That's not his place; the biological parents need to be communicating with each other". So yeah, Stepdad was overstepping, but kind of a wake up call to DH, too, that DH might need to change some of his communication strategies. Less "including" everyone and more "ignore it unless it's from Mom", perhaps.

...

The road map looks a lot like DH and I doing stuff differently, because we're the only ones we can change. And keeping the relationship connections strong with the kids by not having "right vs wrong" arguments but enabling the kids to understand themselves by turning conflicts into arenas for questions and understanding.

If I think of more that happened, I'll add it on...

...

(Thank you Bluemoon23 for the conversation ideas; I didn't forget that you posted)