Part 2: step parenting uBPD SD22 with suicidal ideation

[livednlearned]

What if you and hubby worked to "take texting away from her"...at least as far as you and he go?

I've been chipping away at this -- he is in full doormat mode with her texting -- chipping seems to be the best I can do. I took a jackknife approach early in our relationship/marriage and it drove the texting/calling underground somewhat. I'm going for a slightly more skilled/effective approach and it's been better for my state of mind and better for our relationship.

For example, asking him in advance of us going out for dinner if he can set aside his phone for 120 minutes, or let SD22 know that he will not be responding to calls or texts. Otherwise, if he isn't in a frame of mind to have boundaries with the phone, then dinner is off. In nicer words but that's the gist.

"This sounds important to you.  Let's talk in person next time you are in town."

That's what I was doing prior to this new era of beefier boundaries. My T's feedback has been that I went too far overboard on validation and need to dial back and beef up security.

How is her job search going?

Lots of interviews, no callbacks or offers. Altho she received some constructive feedback from one school whose principal is friends with SD22's advisor at college. Apparently her answers are good and her experience is good, but she comes across overly anxious and nervous in person and they have concerns about how she'll handle some of the behavioral issues that can come up in sped classes.

I suppose by explicitly answering her the idea that emotional things are appropriate for text was validated/promoted.  Very likely a generational thing here about how "we" look at text.

For me it's more about the assault on my nervous system being married to then divorcing n/BPDx and how he used texting and emails to stay negatively engaged.

I don't mind using generational differences as an excuse  

I considered not responding. I looked for the main point/question and it was,
Are you mad at me? And the answer is, no. That seemed like an appropriate message. If you have a desire to engage, that's ok. And it's ok if I feel better skating on the surface.

[ForeverDad]

I seem to recall that one of the lessons in DBT is Mindfulness.  Is there a way for her to review that topic?  And then add that the strong boundaries are not personal, they're to handle the extremes of her behaviors, such as excessive or repeated texting for one thing, that if she's more aware of how her actions appear to others then the relationships would be much smoother and more relaxed.

Yeah, probably too much to do remotely by text and, more importantly, preferably with a therapist with no stake in the game.

Edit:  Reminds me of the old saying you tell children... No you're not bad, it's what happened that's bad.

[livednlearned]

She says she is trying mindfulness apps.

H encourages her to try it a lot.

She knows that I practice mindfulness.

Since no one (other than SD25) seems willing to discuss a BPD dx openly, I've tried to discuss DBT skills for SD22 with H, hoping he will discuss this with her. I don't know how often he brings it up. I did hear him suggest mindfulness before an interview when she was here a few weeks ago, and she became irritated.

Their dynamic is very BPD in the sense she seeks out constant reassurance and is then aggravated when he tries to help.

SD25 said to me this morning, The only person left enabling SD22 is my dad. I feel like he is sending a message to her that her neediness is normal and that other people will tolerate it like he does.

She also said, "SD22 is the alpha in that relationship but my dad can't see it because he thinks she's the victim."
 

[formflier]

SD25 said to me this morning, The only person left enabling SD22 is my dad. I feel like he is sending a message to her that her neediness is normal and that other people will tolerate it like he does.

She also said, "SD22 is the alpha in that relationship but my dad can't see it because he thinks she's the victim."
 

This is very interesting.  Can the three of you discuss this? 

From what you know, how did SD25 end up in the place she is...and SD22 end up...sucking the life out of the world.


Switching gears to driving things underground (the texting).  Do you think the pendulum has swung to far again..too permissive?

Can these other issues be a trojan horse to get SI going again?  That worries me that SI is "stalled".  Perhaps time for some more jackknifes?

I say this because while there is detectable relief that she is not physically present with you...it's undeniable (at least the vibe I'm getting) that the "relief" is minimal.  (minimal doesn't seem like the right word...I'm struggling to find a better one.  There is relief but not physically present is NOT a solution...even though it is "better".)

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

I feel like he is sending a message to her that her neediness is normal and that other people will tolerate it like he does.

FF is circling around for a another shot at answering her text.

I hope you can see that you sent a message that she can text and "get answers"...get a need fulfilled...get reassurance (whatever the term)...via text.

Now...here is the thing, I think the way you are looking at it is fine for "normal" and even "slightly off"...but when someone is so far off "the path"...I would hope everyone in her life is explicitly..implicitly...and in every other way sending her the message that "you are going the wrong way!"

She can still choose to ignore it...but given time and consistency...some sort of message may break through.

https://youtu.be/uDY1z6ezqO4

FF

[livednlearned]

This is very interesting.  Can the three of you discuss this? 

That's a good question. Maybe SD25 and I could do an intervention of sorts, before she moves out.

My T has suggested that I say to H, "This is the second T to suggest that SD22 has BPD. It's unfortunate that it's such a stigmatized illness among people who don't know about recent research. Because we know so much more and the family can really make a difference in helping people with BPD learn how to manage their symptoms."

That's what I was thinking about saying during our upcoming week together out of town.

Switching gears to driving things underground (the texting).  Do you think the pendulum has swung to far again..too permissive?

It's sort of like whac-a-mole. I address one boundary in advance, then something else pops up. Because SD22 has been on tilt this summer, both with BF problems and job concerns, the texting has reached extreme levels.

I've been more proactive when I'm talking to H. So I'll say, "Hey, I wanted to run this by you. I'd like to have 20 minutes of uninterrupted time so let me know if now is a good time."

That makes it so much easier to redirect him back to being present when SD22 texts while we're talking.

A new one is SD22 calling while H is driving with me in the car. He'll tell her "LnL is in the car. What's up?" And then SD22 breezes into a long conversation and makes it hard for H to wind down.

So I try to come up with a reasonable limit. "H, it's awkward when SD22 calls and you put her on speaker phone. How about let her know you'll call her back. I can't listen to music, I essentially have to listen and that makes me uncomfortable."

H has admitted that his emotions skyrocket when discussing SD22. Discussing SI and SD22 is an 11 on a scale of 1 to 10.

I feel like the key to this (right now) is to put BPD in front of him, in the way my T suggests. And go from there.

Otherwise H will say, SD22 is not suicidal right now. Then I'm responding with, "T and psychiatrist say she's chronically suicidal, SD25 is trying to understand SI ideation, you've gone to check on her, it's common with bipolar and depression, etc." and we're back in a loop of me trying to persuade him about something in front of his face.

[livednlearned]

I hope you can see that you sent a message that she can text and "get answers"...get a need fulfilled...get reassurance (whatever the term)...via text.

I wondered that.

My feeling about the interaction is that she wanted a lot more engagement and got a cheery shrug in response. Which was irritating. In the past I have said, Let's talk.

I also feel she wants me to see that she considers me *technically* part of the family, not actual family. That we used to be ok (no boundaries = good) and no longer are (boundaries = bad/mad).

Her message is more aggressive than needy.

She didn't respond to my text 

[worriedStepmom]

My feeling about the interaction is that she wanted a lot more engagement and got a cheery shrug in response. Which was irritating. In the past I have said, Let's talk.

I also feel she wants me to see that she considers me *technically* part of the family, not actual family. That we used to be ok (no boundaries = good) and no longer are (boundaries = bad/mad).

Her message is more aggressive than needy.

I read it that way as well - that her message was more of an attack on you.

[formflier]

I'm not suggesting your text was "wrong"...I am suggesting on the good, better, best scale that a clear "no" was somewhere on the lower end of things.

"Oh my...this seems important to you.  Let me give it some thought and let's chat next time you visit."

There is no "relief" there...although possibly some validation/listening by acknowledging it's important.

I would use the "flip side" for in person respectful talks.  Almost going overboard with providing "relief".

Let's switch gears for a minute.  

I think there is a process issue between you and your hubby.  He is focused on sd22 and you are focused on (perhaps sd22...perhaps getting hubby to acknowledge her BPD or SI )

While you can't force him to change his focus...I would ask him to...ask him explicitly.  Focus on the emotion that is "between you two".

Now...I said it that way because I don't want him to "hear" that it's his emotion that is "at fault"...even though that's kinda what I'm seeing.  

However you have been approaching his "11" on the scale of 1 to 10...I think a different approach is in order.  Here is the thing...I can't imagine anything productive happening when he is having 11 responses..or even 7 and 8s.

What seems to work to center him...what seems to inflame things?  

What do you think?

Best,

FF  

[livednlearned]

"Oh my...this seems important to you.  Let me give it some thought and let's chat next time you visit."

I've done that. Maybe when things are a little more balanced again (more boundaries) I can return to this. I think I would also need to be specific, "Let me give it some thought. Check in with me next time you want to visit so I know to put time in my schedule."

I'm going to also ask my T tomorrow if it makes sense to invite H to be present if/when SD22 wants to talk privately. T seems much more concerned about the splitting tactics than I have been. She thinks SD22 tones down the aggression when H is present. Shine light on it type of thing. Send it back into the shadows.

I would ask him to...ask him explicitly.  Focus on the emotion that is "between you two".

Can you say more about what you mean?

What seems to work to center him...what seems to inflame things?  

If I focus on how he's feeling and touch him he centers pretty quickly.

If I call a spade a spade regarding SD22, he tenses up.

It's odd about the encounter where she pretended to ask if BF could come on Father's Day and then said, BF already left and will be there before me. H got upset with me for saying, "It's not ok. It's not considerate and it's Father's Day. Whatever that was, it wasn't asking permission."

Why did he get angry at me for feeling protective of him?

Why does he feel so upset when I point out how SD22 behaves in ways that milk him?

That tends to inflame him.

My therapist believes it's because he is terrified to admit that SD22 has BPD. I put in a lot of hours being supportive, demonstrating care and compassion and concern for SD22. He has told me that 98 percent of what I suggest has been helpful.

[livednlearned]

her message was more of an attack on you.

Thanks WS. It helps to hear that from someone else 

[GaGrl]

Thanks WS. It helps to hear that from someone else 

More than that, the "technically part of the family" remark is an attempt to establish her father, sister, and her as the nuclear family and to marginalize you as the interloper. This is part of her root problem with you right now -- a reluctance to accept that you and your husband -- your marriage -- is the core unit of the family and can take priority over her wants and needs.

[I Am Redeemed]

This thread has reached the posting limit and is now locked. Part 3 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338261.msg13065574#msg13065574