Many on here describe BPD as a disorder that affects "intimate relationships"

[formflier]

Mod note: This discussion was split from the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338257.0

 Her "persona" is, but when nobody is looking, the mask comes off. While she fits all the aspects of BPD, she has  NPD characteristics as well.
 

Perhaps we insert "only close people" or "family" or ?

I think that somehow it's a "compliment" from a pwBPD that they let their mask off...it's sort of a "sign of trust".  

However, most of us were completely unaware of how to deal with such a presentation and didn't help in productive ways.

Many on here describe BPD as a disorder that affects "intimate relationships".  Sure...some really low functioning types are out there for the world to see...but generally most of the people are shocked that these things go on in private.

Thoughts?  

FF

[Notwendy]

Yes, FF, I should have said but when nobody else is looking.

With BPD mom it has been mainly her husband and children. Sadly, as kids, nobody would believe us and Dad - who did see it- denied it. We eventually just gave up talking to anyone. This is why I advocate counseling for kids. They need to have someone they can talk to.

If the pwBPD works outside the home, then I think this could extend to the workplace if it is severe enough, but also I think many have the skill to keep it together. My BPD mother is low functioning. The only time anyone sees her outside the immediate family is socially- which is fun for her and a low stress and emotionally casual situation.  Now that she is elderly and has home help- they see it, but if they say anything, she fires them. She's a different person with her friends and extended family.

The issues in my own marriage were mild by comparison and were exclusive to only our relationship. It was my own co-dependency that allowed others to treat me like a doormat. I was able to impact things by working on that. I was also able to improve things with my BPD mother as far as how she treats me, but our relationship is strained because of my refusal to allow her to be manipulative with me and she isn't motivated to change. I don't know how this would play out in a marital relationship.

[Enabler]

It certainly feels true that these relationships impact intimate relationships the most. Looking at the phases of one's life , who is determined to be 'intimate' changes a lot over the years. In the case of my W it's gone a bit like this:

0-13 - Parents and sister (original trauma)
13-18 - Parents and sister,  Long term BF she absolutely terrorised, close female friends
18-21 (uni) -  Me, the people she lived with... 1st year it was a friend from school she had known for years who ended up changing uni's because of her, 2nd & 3rd years we lived with 5 other people and 4 out of 5 were vilified.
21-31 - Me consistently but with a couple of cycles going to severe and her leaving.
31 - 40 -  Me consistently, more and more the kids.

The problem has been that now, no one outside the house see's anything. she can paint herself however she likes outside the home and people lap it up.

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

The problem has been that now, no one outside the house see's anything. she can paint herself however she likes outside the home and people lap it up.

"Lap it up" describes it well. How is it that so many people are drawn to these personality types? The less intimate relationships are not without their own dysfunction. Admirers are  narcissistic supply.

[Enabler]

I they were as cool to you as they were to their friends they'd be the best best best person in the world, and once upon a time... she was.

[Notwendy]

I know, but having observed this, it looks so fake and shallow. Maybe I was drawn to that initially but the "mask" isn't appealing now. I think that even though acquaintances may be drawn to that, it has to feel odd at some point. I don't think all of them stick around after a while.

[Enabler]

My experience hasn't been that people get bored of my W, rather that she just lets them drift off because maybe they aren't useful during that period of her life. She does attract some very disordered people though... misery loves company, especially the type that just want endless validation with no depth of critical thought.

[formflier]

  no depth of critical thought.

And...critical thought appearing is usually what is a turning point...and then distance appears in these relationships.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

AMEN

In fact a family friend of ours said "Enabler, EnablerW doesn't talk to me about these kinds of things as she knows she won't get the answers she wants."

[Notwendy]

What's your end game with this Enabler? Are you waiting for the kids to get older? I know divorce isn't on the table now, or perhaps ever, but this doesn't sound like a happy situation or an emotionally fulfilling relationship for you. I understand your feelings about not giving her a divorce, but also for you staying married closes the door on other potentially fulfilling relationships.

I recall my father telling me similar reasons he stayed married. One was for the kids. In his day, BPD mom would get custody. I'm grateful he didn't let that happen. Nowadays fathers may get more consideration. But he stayed long after we kids grew up and left home. His other reason was financial, but she spent most of his income when they were married and I don't see how a settlement would have cost more. He must have had other reasons.

Not telling you what to do either way, but just curious. I feel fortunate that my own marital issues were less severe and more workable. I don't know how to improve things any more than I have tried with my BPD mom. She's severely disordered, seem to lack any empathy.

I've seen her interact with her friends as you have described. She could win an academy award for her facade. She could be screaming at us one minute and if a neighbor comes to the door, be movie star polished. But as the article stated, inside is a wasteland.

Friends are mainly for narcissistic supply. I've met some of them and some of them seem disordered too. These become more long lasting relationships with lots of drama between them. At least one of them is an enabler. The nice ones- they lap up the act, she laps up the admiration.

Of course, I understand how someone would fall in love with her. She's attractive,- in her younger days, stunning, and extremely magnetic when she wants to be.

[Enabler]

I wouldn't say that I have an end game, more a range of outcomes I'm pretty content with. Me getting part custody wouldn't work financially as I leave at 6 and get back at 18:00-19:00. The kids would have to be older for that to happen and less than ideal. I would need to have the majority of my income to hire in help to look after the kids at the end of the day.

My focus at the moment is the kids and I'm kinda cool with that. Yes, there is a large part of me which would like to have a meaningful companion in my life and do family things together, however, if I exited (or was ejected) from this marriage (would seem likely if you looked at the divorce petition) I have little or no intention of diving back into the dating game any time soo. Not least because these boards have taught me that you end up repeating the same mistakes. So from a life fulfilment perspective I don't feel like I'm missing out on all that much.

I have a strong faith and my faith tells me to stand tall and strong. I don't believe that God is telling me to attack, he is telling me to act with humility, be well bounded and act with integrity. God wants me to show her a different way. In the past I have gone to my wife and told her of her guilt and shame, I don't think this worked... she knows of her guilt and shame and she knows of her aching abyss. I even think she's aware of her lack of integrity and wholesale fraud, and it eats her up every day. She's still trying to blame me for this but it's wearing very thin... Something will happen, that much I know... she cannot tolerate this for ever and she is a LOT LOT less happy than I am. She will either run away, she'll push through with the divorce or she will have a poof moment as she's done in the past where she hopes this all goes away and is forgotten about. That's when the real work begins... because this isn't going to go away and this isn't going to be forgotten about and this isn't going to vanish without being addressed. How long can you realistically stay half divorced from someone without those friends you've lent on for 3 years asking questions you don't like the sound of?

I am getting better and better at establishing the truth... and it's rarely what she tells me.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I understand this. If I were single, I would not likely venture into the dating pool anytime soon, or even ever. I know that there are trustworthy people out there, I just don't trust my own attraction mechanism. Anyway, I have no plans to be single so it isn't an issue, but I get it.

Your mode of proceeding isn't much different than mine. It's pretty hard to "divorce" your own mother and even though one may divorce a spouse, if they are the mother of your children, you still have a relationship of some sorts.

After my father died, it was an opportunity to go NC if I wanted to. She had basically disowned me. But my own religious values made this an unacceptable option for me. I was not in any physical danger. Emotionally she can hurt- but this is less and less. I had to limit contact with her for my own sanity but somehow felt I needed to stay in the relationship. Being ethical doesn't mean enabling as you also get this. She's painted me black to her FOO but I try to be ethical and this stands for itself ( and also my own self image). I don't allow her to abuse me and I don't enable her. She doesn't like it, but I don't think this is good for either of us.

Perhaps this is what my father decided as well, I don't know, but although he was co-dependent and an enabler - he was also our ethical example. He was a good man. However, had he chosen to divorce her, we would have supported him on this. He would still have set an ethical example in the way he lived his life. Good people get divorced too.

You have access to more information and tools than he did. He didn't know that there was a better way than to enable. You do.

[Enabler]

The not enabling but is the hardest part. I never knowingly enable her at all. However, I’m finding out more and more and more that I am enabling due to her deceiving me. Eg I made it pretty clear on the 3rd July that we are spending more than we earn and it had to stop. I detailed large expenses and left her in no doubt where we were.

Friday last week she asks for money, she has an income of about £1k a month and I pay for all running costs and do the weekly shop... so, this £1k is pretty much her spending money and some bits and bobs for the kids. I pushed back and said “what is the minimum I can give you?”, she huffed and puffed and said that she gets paid on Monday and would have to go overdrawn... I figured this was an okay outcome. I get home and find 2 receipts totally £550 for clothes bought earlier in the week on mail order. Had I had not held my boundary of no money available means no money available she would have deceived me into thinking she needed money to meet reasonable expenses. There was no mention of the clothes (and other clothes I know have been bought this month). I had to search to find the receipts so they weren’t even left for me to see, bags were hidden under the spare bed etc etc.

It’s like a game of splat the mole, where will the next ‘need’ come from that she feels compelled to defraud me into supporting her with? She even gets angry with me when I try and establish the truth (narcissistic injury)! I find the detective work reasonably exciting if I’m honest... sad... but exciting when you finally catch her out. I don’t say anything anymore though, I just cut off that line... no more money from me!

I don’t have a false imagine of her anymore. I see in colour. I know what she could be, she could be that person that everyone else loves... but for now at least she’s not that person for me. Patience and vigilance

Proverbs 20:22 (Listen)

22 Do not say, “I will repay evil”;
wait for the Lord, and he will deliver you.

[Red5]

I wouldn't say that I have an end game, more a range of outcomes I'm pretty content with.

Me getting part custody wouldn't work financially as I leave at 6 and get back at 18:00-19:00.

The kids would have to be older for that to happen and less than ideal.

I would need to have the majority of my income to hire in help to look after the kids at the end of the day.

My focus at the moment is the kids and I'm kinda cool with that.

Morning from the eastcoast of the "Colonies" Enabler,

I've been here long enough, that you know my story, before I met and married "Q" (ubpdw#2)… I was married before, long story short… the 1st Red5W was extremely disordered, troubled (radio active), due to childhood abuse, we were together for 21 years, marred at 16 & 18 years old… and as we grew up together, I learned, she acted out, she ran off with several OM over the years… but like you are now, I stuck in there… it was painful, and I really did not have a grasp as to what was going on, other than CSA made a woman a lost soul, that couldn't cope with life anymore… I had no clue about ptsd/cptsd, bpd, of any other of the clusters that are caused by early childhood trauma… I naively thought that the right therapist "could straighten her out"…

I was wrong of course… and she left us all a second time, and this time for good, the last time I returned from an overseas deployment (Japan).

So we divorced… and this is the part I want you to hear from ole' Red5… I became a single Dad.

I had the career, the billet, the income, and the means to start over, with my now three teenagers, and one is -was- autistic.

I was scared to death, that I wouldn't be able - capapble to pull it off, as I was still on active duty… but I took it one day at a time, slowly we rebuilt our lives, me and these kids… after 'mom' turned into a pillar of salt (metaphorically).

I took orders, a new place, a good place, we had nice, secure, and safe quarters, on the air station, out by the river, they kept their pets, each had their own rooms, my daughter had her own bathroom… they all their things / stuff, we planted flowers, had a garden… we practically lived on the beach (inner coastal), it was beautiful down there… they made new friends, we had great neighbors, I established a support system… they started over in school, now high schoolers… I got them back in Church, I cooked, we shared chores… it worked out.

The only thing I did wrong, was I started dating… should've stayed single for at least two years…

I did this single Dad thing for five years… before I remarried… meanwhile I got my two youngest "launched"…

I was very afraid that they would not adjust, that what happened would mess them up… but praise the Good Lord, my two youngest, now 26 & 29 are good to go, healthy both physically and emotionally, and are thriving…

Their mother surfaces now and again… but she hasn't changed, she is still toxic… but my kids now understand, and they have boundaries with her… they are great kids, I got lucky, prayer and faith was key.

You hang in there Enabler, stay the course… I did it, you will too, whatever happens, stay your course… there is no hurry in these circumstances, I think if you remain, in your current stance, things are going to work out good for you… your daughters need you to be around, just like my kids needed me, that is why I stayed, until the bitter end with their mother… as their mother was far to unstable to have taken care of them in the long-haul… yes, bad things happened while I was gone (six months)… but my middle Son protected his autistic brother, and his younger sister… this was tough for me to learn about after the fact… yeah : (

So I stowed any hopes for a healthy meaningful relationship, with my s2bxw… and I became "climatized" to this, is wasn't so bad… I got used to it after a while… and then one day she just walked away… which is the best thing that could have happened.

I'm doing the same right now… I've been separated from my current wife "Q" (ubpdw) will be eight months come August the 1st… she is who she is, she has her own place now, she is safe, she has income, and wants nothing from me she says… I'm not going to divorce her, she told me she still loves me, and that she wished things were different, and that she is "sad for us"… I've not had any type of meaningful relationship with her for years now, its been very difficult dealing with all her behaviors (11-8 years)… as we all know living with a pw/bpd… so I just stand, like the Apostle "Paul"… "when you've done all you could do, just stand".

I have our home, maybe she will come back one day, I don't know… so I just go on about daily life, work, my autistic Son, chores, chow, shopping, Church… my other two kids, and even her two adult children still maintain relationship with me… I stay busy enough, I have my support system back, that she dismantled, and destroyed… she calls me pretty much weekly, and I go and see her... in fact, this afternoon, my S29 and I are going over to her place to "lift furniture" after work… so she is still needing me (?), calling on me for a litany of things, power tools, ladder, pavers (stone), haul flooring for her .. etc etc'… will she come home one day?, I don't know, she needs to work things out, there are things she has to "own"… will she ever do that, I think I know the answer to that… she needs to get some guidance, with her "temper" she is always telling me she has, "you know this Red, I've told you for years, I have a bad temper (she says)… you think! (?bpd?)… meanwhile, I grow smarter, stronger, wiser… she is still stage iv /C/… her treatments (trials) continue… she declines, and then gains weight back (she got down to 115lbs) .. then something else happens, side effects to the treatments… that is not going to change, I'm not sure exactly how long we have… I feel a $hit ton of guilt for what happened… back in November, but she cant be hitting my kid : (

I rambling… hang in there Enabler… I see things working out for you, 'bide your time'… have the patience of Job, you'll be fine.

Red5

[Enabler]

All I know is I have to act in an extraordinary way and muster the capacity to shoulder extraordinary levels of discomfort... fortunately I have a gritty determination for all the above.

[Notwendy]

Enabler- I agree that we should not shirk responsibilities just to avoid discomfort.

However, keep in mind that at some point, your children will grow up and see the situation through adult eyes. I know that my father endured a lot to see us kids raised in the best way he thought he could considering the situation. I would do that for a child.

There came a time when we kids were middle age, and strength and endurance was not so strong for my father, and yet, he was still enduring how my mother treated him. It was hurtful to see this and not be able to intervene. I tried to be as helpful as possible to him but the dynamics in my family made it difficult.

By understanding the dynamics of a BPD relationship, your outcome is likely to be different, but enduring discomfort past the point where it seems necessary won't just affect you. Your kids will see it. They will eventually challenge you by asking questions. Telling them you are doing this for the kids when the kids are 40 won't be a reason.

I'm not telling you to leave the marriage or to only seek pleasure, but your kids love you, and at one point will be concerned for you. Take care of yourself. It isn't selfish. Your kids will likely want this for you too.

[Enabler]

I would be interesting to know what your Dad was thinking. My FIL I'm pretty sure has figured "If you can't beat them join them" so has somewhat deluded himself into a similar way of thinking, whilst blocking out the obvious abuse. He has a slightly different relationship as he's utterly reliant on him as much as my MIL is on him. There's such segregation of roles that even if he did take a stand it wouldn't last long as he wouldn't be able to cook for himself.

I personally can't see a scenario where this didn't play out one way or another sooner rather than later... however, I'm not stupid to think that I'm pretty sure that's what most people think/thought... and then 5-10-15-20yrs later they find that the situation has continued to stay the same. I don't want that to be me, and maybe knowing what I know now means that that eventuality is less and less likely.

I notice more overtly the silly little things now, like her believing her own lies. One part of her victim narrative is that she's constantly busy and constantly has people demanding her time. We were at a school function last night and one of the school dads commented whilst we were in a queue waiting fro a burger "hey, that's a good tan! Plenty of sunbathing in the garden"... "Ohhhhhhh Noo, I just tan really easily. I haven't had any time to sit around in the garden sunbathing". I know for a fact that she has had plenty of time to sit in the garden and sunbath and have seen her do so on numerous occasions. Also, since she never bothers to put the garden chairs back round the garden table after she's pointed them towards the sun for an hour or two's soaking up the rays it's pretty obvious that she's been out in the garden sunbathing... it miffs me that something as simple as answering a suggestion that one gets the opportunity to sunbath is so mortifying for her to admit to herself and others that she feels compelled to lie about it. She lies about almost anything and everything to anyone. It would be comedy golf if it didn't have it's more darker serious side.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I think he eventually got enmeshed.  We kids were a reality check- we brought the outside world into the home- our friends, ideas, thinking and speaking about things. Once we grew up and left, it was just them and I think eventually he began to think and speak like her. He still had his work, but once he retired, it was just them.

They shared an email address ( so she read his emails).
They in ways became one person.

My BPD mother seems to be in victim perspective all the time. She also lies all the time. It makes it tough for us as her grown children-because we do want to be informed about how she is doing . We often have to cross check with each other to help figure out what is going on. We don't know when she's telling the truth or not.

[Notwendy]

I personally can't see a scenario where this didn't play out one way or another sooner rather than later... however, I'm not stupid to think that I'm pretty sure that's what most people think/thought... and then 5-10-15-20yrs later they find that the situation has continued to stay the same. I don't want that to be me, and maybe knowing what I know now means that that eventuality is less and less likely.

Good, it is difficult to stay and also difficult to leave. I think it helps to have a clear perspective on the situation and make a conscious choice.

[Enabler]

Pretty much describes my FIL. He's been crushed since he gave up work.

In conversations with him about MIL, it would seem he's just decided "she doesn't mean it", when she's vile to him. That's a pretty strong assumption when the woman shows ZERO affection towards him.

[formflier]

Good, it is difficult to stay and also difficult to leave. I think it helps to have a clear perspective on the situation and make a conscious choice.

I've made a choice to stay and "be a good example"...instead of her "wearing me down"...I'll do that to her."

It may or may not work...but I have a clear understanding of why "separateness" matters (the one email thing, privacy on phone and all that)

That's just weird that someone would blatantly tell untruth's ...such as the sunbathing thing.  Especially when it could be said slightly differently, and be truthful and give the same impression.

"Oh..thank you.  I tan easily and haven't had as much time to sunbath as I would like."

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Same for my father. "Your mother doesn't mean it". And she was vile to him. He'd defend her in an instant and sing her praises to others. And it was so hard to watch because it isn't about romance- it's common decency to not treat your spouse like this, IMHO.

[Enabler]

"Oh..thank you.  I tan easily and haven't had as much time to sunbath as I would like."

Or what's wrong with "Good innit... I grab some time here and there and get a tan whilst running and cycling" ... as if this guy really even cared how she got a suntan? Every single moment of the day she is doing mask management. Any comment, any perceived slight, any slip up by me, they're all opportunities to push me down and elevate herself to more of a victim. You're right, it is downright weird. People don't expect someone to lie on such a wholesale scale, heck it was hard enough for me to come to terms with it.

Common decency denotes that you don't lie constantly about trivia, it also says you should furnish the person who economically and practically supports you with a modicum of civility... nope. If you can lie about where you got your suntan... what else can you lie about?

[Notwendy]

I think "mask management" is a good explanation. I would combine this with the need to be seen as a victim- to get sympathy.

The other reason for the chronic lying is control. For my BPD mother, it's about not letting anyone know the truth- and so she remains a master of control here- if you are kept in the dark she has some control. She likes to tell people "secrets" just between the two of them. That makes the other person feel special and drawn into her circle. But it's sheer manipulation and the secret may not be true.

My BPD mother has lied so much to us that I truly don't know what is true or what is real. There are several reasons why our relationship is strained but I would put the lying at the top of the list. It's impossible to have a close relationship with someone who is constantly lying. A close relationship requires vulnerability and trust. With the lying, only one person is vulnerable and the liar isn't. And once we know someone is lying, there's no trust.

Not being vulnerable and being in control is part of the mask management. Lying serves that.

[Enabler]

It's possible to have a close relationship (close being defined as anything other than being painted black), but it seems like it requires one to buy into the delusions or at the very least humour them and pretend you believe their lies/distortions. Unfortunately this requires one of 3 things to occur in ourselves... 1) don't care about the truth at all 2) care about the truth but seek the truth for ourselves (about everything) 3) believe without question the truth they show us and warp contradictory evidence such that it agrees with their truth.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I think it is inevitable that spouses influence each other over time, for better and perhaps for worse too. It's probably impossible to spend that much time with another person and not adapt to their world view. People tend to spend time with others who think similarly to them- members of their church, same political side, and each reinforces the other's views.

I think it is possible to "normalize" dysfunction. Also the more extreme example "f-o-l-i-e aux deux".

As per the thread title, BPD affects the most intimate relationships. I think the mask has a purpose- to hide the real self. A pwBPD may not even know who they are, or fear that if someone were to see the "real self" they would not like them. In an intimate relationship, it is more likely a partner will see beyond the mask. That creates fear, and fear of rejection. There's less fear with more casual contacts. I think pwBPD are more comfortable when they fear less ( as are most people- but if they have good emotional management skills, they can manage this).

For my family, believing the family lie was essential to any harmony. But as we got older, we could see ourselves that something was amiss. But to be accepted in the family, we had to pretend we didn't.

[I Am Redeemed]

This thread has reached the posting limit and is now locked. Part 2 is here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338359.msg13066465#msg13066465