Wanted: Opinions and Thoughts on Therapist's Advice - Part 2

[Angie59]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here    https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338330.0

Well, thank all of you for your replies.  I appreciate them.

Livednlearned, you make an interesting point.  The 5-1/2 year old is beginning Kindergarten 2 weeks from today.  Myself and my sons were in private schools so I'm not real familiar with the public school district.  I was not aware that sexual education was done at all of the various levels of school.  If it could remain anonymous, I would love to be able to speak to the social worker or teacher at school and voice my concerns.  My fear would be that GS5 would see me there and tell her mom that I was there talking to someone.  I guess that is where you have to take that chance and put the child's well-being first.  Thank you for letting me know about that!

I also plan to speak to my therapist about it as well.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[twocrazycats]

Years ago I reported my sister-in-law for child abuse when I saw her kick her 5 year old daughter in the stomach. CPS did go out to the house. I don't know all the details, but I never saw my SIL do anything like that again. Although the report was anonymous, SIL did manage to find out it was me through a friend who worked at the agency (or so I heard from my aunt).

Maybe instead of walking into the school you could talk to the person on the phone?

Also, I think I remember my current therapist asking if I knew of any children who were being abused? I wonder if that question is routine now, at least in some areas? I'm just thinking if you told your T, if she would have to report it?

The behavior of the 5 year old does not seem at all normal to me. Having raised two children and having spent time with all their friends, I've only heard of sexual exploration at that age with peers, not with adults the way you describe. And I never witnessed any of it, even though I spent a lot of time with many of the friends when they were that age. And the attitude while bending your finger back is disturbing too. I suppose it's possible that nothing abusive is going on, but I believe this definitely should be investigated. Let CPS determine whether the behavior is normal or not.

[Angie59]

Good morning twocrazycats!   

Thank you for your reply.  That is interesting (and satisfying to know) that you never witnessed your SIL repeat that behavior again with her daughter.  Your idea about calling the school is also interesting.  I have thought about that too, just didn't know if they would speak with me, but I could find out.  I'm thinking along the lines that maybe there is something in place where they cannot speak to anyone other than the parents about a child without the parents' permission?  This is strictly just something I'm thinking about - don't have any idea or heard anything of that sort - I've never been in this situation either.

I totally agree with you as my own childhood was of the same sort - child with child, let's play doctor, or you show me yours and I'll show you mine type of thing - all normal stuff and based on curiosity.  If she had done or said something like that to a classmate or friend of hers, this would be totally different to me.  It is just as you said - the fact it is being done toward me - an adult - that disturbs me.  It makes me wonder - was she involved with adult(s) is something sexual?  Was she made by adults to engage in something with other kids?  Did she see things that adults were not careful for her not to see?  My head is swirling with questions, but I have no real answers - just a sick gut saying something isn't right here.

I mentioned this in a post before, but I feel perhaps I should mention it again for those who did not read it, but says something about, I believe, regarding her mother's view of sexuality in general.  While looking on the kids' bookshelves one day for a book my grandson wanted us to read, (GS5 was not there at the time), I found a book called "It's Normal."  I flipped through it and almost flipped out!

First of all, the book cover said for ages 10+.  The kids were 2 and 4 at the time.  Each chapter discussed a different topic of sexuality - all drawings (no actual photos of children or people), but explicit drawings of things such as what masturbation looks like for a female and then a male, explicit drawings of what girls and boys genitals look like, later chapters showing sexual positions and how it comes to be that babies are made, etc...  very informative!  NOT appropriate on a 2 and 4 year old's bookshelf.  Why would the BPD mom think that was okay?

This is a big factor in why I am so concerned with the whole thing.  I don't believe she has a good, healthy view of sexuality herself, so how can she for her children?  Very, very scary to me.  Of note, I have not seen anything of this nature occur with my GS3 as of yet.  I hope I do not but it almost seems inevitable with spending time at mom's and being with his sister. 

I feel sick to my stomach writing all of this stuff, literally.  There may be those who feel I am making too much of it all and I know we all have differing opinions.  My head, my heart, and my gut are all speaking to me and I have to believe there is something to that.

[livednlearned]

My fear would be that GS5 would see me there and tell her mom that I was there talking to someone.

One possibility is setting up a meeting during a teacher workday when the kids aren't in class. Teacher workdays often happen before the first day of school. There's probably a calendar online showing when those workdays are scheduled.

It's also perfectly reasonable to call and gather information, too. In my son's public school there was a guidance counselor and a family specialist. The family specialist is usually a social worker who might be a better person to contact, someone who is more accustomed to dealing with the types of family-level concerns you have.

I volunteered in my son's class and a (very) troubled kid latched onto me. The child (age 5) sat next to me during a performance and started stroking my back and calling me baby. There were other behaviors that made me concerned enough to talk to the family specialist, who said yes, they were working with the family and were aware of issues.

The bigger issue, it seems, is how to be involved in GS3's life without it taking a toll on you. With a BPD mom, there will be a strong gravitational pull for everyone to get on her emotional roller coaster. You have to learn skills to stay grounded while everyone else goes for a ride.

It's not easy, and it can be done.

Your T seems to be suggesting that you take a big step back. At least until you can get centered and build up some stamina. Do you feel that's something you can do?

[Angie59]

Hello Livednlearned!

In answer to your question about my therapist's suggestion in taking a step back, I'm trying, but not too successful.  I guess I really need to talk to her about what exactly does that look like?  What does taking a step back mean.  No discussion about the kid(s), the schedules, the split-up and its repercussions in general?  I'm just not clear.  I know she is not talking about stopping babysitting on Thursdays for our grandson nor is she talking about no contact with my son, no talking to him at all or visiting with him, etc..., as she did voice that.  I am assuming (which I can see I shouldn't do), that it is staying away from the things I listed above, but I need to clarify this with her.  Your question came at a perfect time as I have an appointment with her this evening.

One question I have for you as you seem pretty informed working with the school, volunteering, etc., do you think that since I am not an actual relative of GD5 that they would even talk to me about her?  Would that be violating some sort of confidentiality or something? 

What are your thoughts about our (my husband, older son and myself) conversation about not having her come over anymore, or at least until she gets some sort of help and behavior changes are evident?  On Sunday night when we had the talk, I felt it was the best move to make since we were all feeling so uncomfortable and exhausted with her behaviors, and the decision was made.  Now I'm sitting here feeling bad about it.  Yes, I know she has all of these behavior issues and now the sexual behaviors coming into play, but I'm second guessing myself because I do love her and feel sorry for her as this is not at all her fault.  I kind of feel like I'm turning my back on her. 

Any thoughts?

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi Angie: Did you ask the 5yr old if anyone had ever touched her privates or played games with their privates as well as hers?  It's simple enough to talk to a child and get more perspective.  I used to be a Guardian Ad Litem, many years actually, and by not pushing, but being light as a feather, could gather lots of information in casual conversations that changed subjects fairly quickly (not dwelling on anything, but just asking a series of questions about all sorts of things), for the benefit of the courts as well as others working with my child clients.
While it is true that you can and should call CPS if you strongly believe there to be sexual abuse of a child, the types of information you provide may be disclosed to the parents, as a means of justifying the investigation.  If ANYONE else knows you had the experience with the child, including the child, who may be questioned by the parents when they find out a call has been made, then conclusions may be drawn...educated ones...and then, what impact is this going to have on your ongoing relationship with this mother of your grandchild and you, as your grandchild grows up?  I am saying, dont make that call unless you strongly feel it's warranted, and if possible, perhaps call the child's school psychologist and find out BEFORE NAMING CHILD if you can speak with them anonymously.  If they get involved, then THEY can call CPS...and identify THEIR experiences and interview concerns with the child...Just a suggestion to research alternate ways to putting a target on your back...fwiw...and only fwiw.

Sorry about not understanding your prior post that I replied to.  I don't think I had enough information and therefore drew a wrong conclusion.  I thought your son wanted to help out, I thought that both parents of the 5yrold were working that night, and I thought the request of your son to babysit in light of that fact was approved by both parents and your son.  Clearly, your additional posts with lots more information changes my understanding and I apologize if any part of my post upset you.

[livednlearned]

about my therapist's suggestion in taking a step back, I'm trying, but not too successful.  I guess I really need to talk to her about what exactly does that look like?  What does taking a step back mean.  No discussion about the kid(s), the schedules, the split-up and its repercussions in general?  I'm just not clear.

 

If she's like my therapist, she'll probably make you come up with the answer 

Anxiety kind of takes your mind out of your body. You spend days and weeks and months with muscles contracted and clenched, breathing shallow, not really seeing anything. Not being present. It's exhausting. And it's not very effective. We're constantly ready for disaster except when something really does happen we are so strung out on anxiety that we overreact without producing helpful results.

My T gave me homework to just notice what was happening in my body.

Just seeing SD22's car parked outside our house make me tense up. The sound of H's text alerts (9/10 from SD22) made me tense.

That's about me, not SD22.

I've had to learn what it feels like to be not anxious so that I at least know what I'm going for when I make choices to dial down my anxiety.

It sounds like a baby step but it's the foundation for everything else. Otherwise, without knowing what you want to feel, you have to have rigid rules like, No talking about x, y, z with son. That might be helpful but it may also increase other anxieties like not knowing what's going on with GS3. Altho, not to be too confusing, but setting up something rigid while you figure out how you want to feel is perfectly ok. Sort of like an elimination diet to figure out what's making you feel bad and comparing it to what good feels like.

do you think that since I am not an actual relative of GD5 that they would even talk to me about her?  Would that be violating some sort of confidentiality or something?

It can't hurt to ask. "I've been a caretaker for a child about to start kindergarten in your school in a few weeks. I became concerned about some behaviors (sexual in nature) and I wanted to share those thoughts with professionals who might have a better idea about whether this behavior is within the range of normal, and whether it should be reported. I've never been in this position before, so I'm hoping you can give me some guidance on what I should do, and whether sharing this information with the school is appropriate."

Usually, violating confidentiality happens when the school tells you something about one of their students.

What are your thoughts about our (my husband, older son and myself) conversation about not having her come over anymore, or at least until she gets some sort of help and behavior changes are evident? 

How do you think your son will respond? I like to play these scenarios all the way out so I can look more closely at whether the consequences are ones I prefer over the status quo.

[Angie59]

Hello LoveontheRocks!   

Please, no need to apologize about not reading the post or not having enough information.  I know it gets hard to follow a lot of times when the posts become long, and I may not have expressed the situation correctly either.  Your advice, perspective and wisdom have been nothing but positive to me, so please no worries! 

Hello to you Livednlearned as well!   

I see I have a fellow anxiety sufferer here and as I read your post I thought you were writing specifically about me.  So much of what you stated about what anxiety is so true and really resonated with me.  You have a good point about being aware of what you want to feel.  I think I know pretty much of what I want to feel, just don't know if I can accomplish that in some way with my son - at least not at this point in time but hopefully in the future.

I did want to share with everyone that I did make a special appointment with my therapist last evening because of Sunday's events and the effect it had on everyone in the family.  She specializes in youth and family counseling and works quite a bit with kids, so I do respect her opinions and feel she is knowledgeable in this area. 

After explaining what occurred on Sunday, how it made us all feel, and the decision about not allowing GD5 to come back, these were her thoughts and reactions:  I did tell her that even though the decision was made by myself as well as my husband and older son (who just offered to leave the house when she was there), she told me she totally agreed with our decision and that we should make our younger son aware of this as soon as possible as well as the actions of GD5 that took place to make us feel this way.  She brought out something I never even thought of seriously and that was protecting ourselves from possible allegations that GD5 may make about us!  She is only 5-1/2 years old, we all know stories get twisted, kids lie for various reasons, etc., and she said to encourage our youngest son to do this as well and not have her spend nights at his house anymore, as allegations could come out toward him as well, which I have been worried about for some time.

I told her in spite of being part of the decision, I now felt like a real heel and felt like I was kicking GD5 to the curb and she is just an innocent child.  She simply stated that she has a mother and a father and this is not our responsibility.  For that matter, we should feel totally cleared from that part of the previous family.  She also had somewhat shocked facial expressions when I explained or demonstrated what the actions were that took place and said that yes, this is something to be concerned about and that she either has seen some things she shouldn't be seeing, or engaged in something that was wrong, she of course couldn't be specific because at this point, any one would be speculating what did happen and who, what, when, where - no one knows at this point, but we do know it is not normal behavior and she was convinced something was going on somewhere regarding her seeing things that were inappropriate or someone possible engaging her in something inappropriate.

Of course this crushed me to the core.  Why, you might wonder, as we all talked about just the night before and felt something was wrong.  I guess it was talking to a professional and seeing and hearing her and her definiteness in what we should do, which is make our boundary of her not coming over any more to protect ourselves and that our younger son should do the same to protect allegations against him.  She also brought up secondly that it should be done out of respect for the bio-dad who is apparently trying to see his daughter more and get things a little less complicated (ex.  ex-boyfriend still in picture (our son), new boyfriend in picture (he doesn't know from Adam), and how many more men will be coming through his daughter's life.  He is trying for more time, more stability and routine for her and not being at so many different houses.  She felt that should be respected, as we did agree with that all along.

Back to LoveontheRocks:  I think you were confused about this because I don't think there was ever a definitive answer given as to what occurred on Thursday night where both GD5's bio-parents had to work and then again on Sunday when she was here all day and then spent the night at my son's.  There are a few possibilities, but I would only be guessing - perhaps he called uBPD mom and discussed it with her and said it was okay for Thursday since he had to work, or she lied and said she was going to take her to her mom's or something.  I have no real idea what happened on Sunday, but I'm merely going by past behaviors:  There is nothing legal yet about his additional time he wants, so my guess is she is making him stick to his days and only his days with her and thinking it is okay that even though she can't watch her because of her bar job on Sundays, then she should be with my son.  I don't get that thinking whatsoever - why not let bio-dad have her if he wants her and you can't take care of her?  Well, I'm afraid that just goes with what I have experienced with her personality - the only thing that makes sense about her is that she doesn't make sense.  Or better said, the only thing consistent about her is her inconsistencies. 

I feel very saddened today because I am scared and worried for both GD5 and GS3.  My T did not suggest I do anything on my end - she reminded me again that she has a mom and a dad.  She said that we are done.  Why do I still feel the urge to tell someone or do something though?   

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi Angie:  To be clear (since you mentioned sex education, and this wasn't what I was talking about), since I am concerned that you might get backlash with your grandson if it is ever known that you were the person who identified the inappropriate sexual natured behavior of the 5yrold, my suggestion was...>CALL...her school, ask to speak to her guidance counselor (without ever identifying yourself)...tell her in very broad terms what happened (the broader, the better).  This counselor is legally required, by law, to research things like this (they are in my state).  So, this counselor will call the child in and research the issue.  If this counselor finds anything askew, they will then contact CPS and not hesitate to let the parents know it was because they interviewed the child based on an anonymous call and found questionable responses from the child.
You could even say you saw the child interacting with someone in a very public place and found her conduct strange instead of saying she was interacting with you.  The point is, if you raise the concern, the counselor will conduct her own interview and draw her own conclusions...the less your details "match" the less anyone has to go on.
I am ONLY concerned that if the mother of your grandchild finds out it was you, she could punish you for years to come where your grandson is concerned...BUT...if the 5yrold is being mistreated in any way, we all owe her the voice she doesn't have...

As to the 5yr old's dad and your son's arrangements and so forth, the more you posted, the better I understood...and again, I just wanted to apologize if I stepped on your toes.   

[Lollypop]

Hi Angie

What  does taking a step back mean.  No discussion about the kid(s), the schedules, the split-up and its repercussions in general?  I'm just not clear. ]

Detaching starts in your actions, then your mind follows its lead.

By approaching this as I’ve already suggested you’ll be helping yourself and your family. You’re anxiety levels seriously reduce.

Be Light as a fairy and not talk about problems or asking questions. If you start doing things you enjoy, then you can talk about that instead.

Keep things simple and light. It helps everyone.

I have a happier, healthier life, despite the problems. It was a choice I made. I did it to improve my relationship with my son.

You are only responsible for your life. Your son is responsible for his life - let him have the dignity to live it. You can connect by the love you have for one another not through his problems or his dramas. You may not currently feel that this is possible but it’s done by baby steps and it starts with you.

Hugs

LP