Feeling guilt for the first time in a while (for a whole new reason)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everyone,

So I have posted about how I have been able to let go of the guilt I was feeling for ending the r/s, going NC to protect myself from abuse, and, generally, for not being able to fix/rescue/make things better/save my ex from himself. I worked through it in therapy and have not felt more than a passing glimmer of guilt for a few months now.

Until today.

I work at a restaurant. My ex's former boss from a few years ago came in to eat lunch. He sees me from time to time and I get my car serviced at his shop. He asked me today about my ex and said he was thinking of hiring him back. He asked me how he was doing, since he knows a little about the drug issues and the abuse. I told him the truth, which is that I have every reason to believe that my ex is still using and that I was not sure if he would be reliable for him. He seems to be able to hold it together on a job for a few months and then things go downhill. I know he recently got fired from his other job because he said he was dehydrated and needed to go to the doctor. They would not let him leave when he wanted to, so he just left. The thing is, he has pulled this before, and it is usually his bad habits (not drinking enough water, drinking too many sodas and energy drinks and/or using methamphetamine which dehydrates the body) that cause the dehydration. Then he looks like the victim when he can't go to the doctor immediately.

Anyway, the former boss decided it would not be a good idea. I feel like that is the best decision because I don't believe my ex would be reliable. But...I FEEL GUILTY.

I think I feel guilty because my ex accuses me of "sabotaging" him, and this time I kind of did, which kind of makes what he says true, which makes me feel like A Bad Person.

So, since then I have been trying to flip this and tell myself "well, did you lie? No. He asked, you told the truth." Does a man who is in all probability using meth need to be working on people's vehicles. No. Does ex cause himself to be unreliable? Yes. Is it your fault that he makes bad choices? No.

Then I also think, well, was it any of your business? Could you have just said you haven't contacted him in a while, given the last number you had for him and left the boss to make up his own mind? Yes.

I didn't realize until later that if my ex did start working for this man again, that would mean he would literally have a job that is located on the next street over from me. I would have to change my route to and from the house to avoid driving anywhere near the shop, because I don't want him knowing where I live.

I'm really confused about whether I did the right thing or if I should have just stayed out of it, and I am also really mad that I feel guilty about it.

Thoughts, anyone?

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi everyone,

So I have posted about how I have been able to let go of the guilt I was feeling for ending the r/s, going NC to protect myself from abuse, and, generally, for not being able to fix/rescue/make things better/save my ex from himself. I worked through it in therapy and have not felt more than a passing glimmer of guilt for a few months now.

Until today.

I work at a restaurant. My ex's former boss from a few years ago came in to eat lunch. He sees me from time to time and I get my car serviced at his shop. He asked me today about my ex and said he was thinking of hiring him back. He asked me how he was doing, since he knows a little about the drug issues and the abuse. I told him the truth, which is that I have every reason to believe that my ex is still using and that I was not sure if he would be reliable for him. He seems to be able to hold it together on a job for a few months and then things go downhill. I know he recently got fired from his other job because he said he was dehydrated and needed to go to the doctor. They would not let him leave when he wanted to, so he just left. The thing is, he has pulled this before, and it is usually his bad habits (not drinking enough water, drinking too many sodas and energy drinks and/or using methamphetamine which dehydrates the body) that cause the dehydration. Then he looks like the victim when he can't go to the doctor immediately.

Anyway, the former boss decided it would not be a good idea. I feel like that is the best decision because I don't believe my ex would be reliable. But...I FEEL GUILTY.

I think I feel guilty because my ex accuses me of "sabotaging" him, and this time I kind of did, which kind of makes what he says true, which makes me feel like A Bad Person.

So, since then I have been trying to flip this and tell myself "well, did you lie? No. He asked, you told the truth." Does a man who is in all probability using meth need to be working on people's vehicles. No. Does ex cause himself to be unreliable? Yes. Is it your fault that he makes bad choices? No.

Then I also think, well, was it any of your business? Could you have just said you haven't contacted him in a while, given the last number you had for him and left the boss to make up his own mind? Yes.

I didn't realize until later that if my ex did start working for this man again, that would mean he would literally have a job that is located on the next street over from me. I would have to change my route to and from the house to avoid driving anywhere near the shop, because I don't want him knowing where I live.

I'm really confused about whether I did the right thing or if I should have just stayed out of it, and I am also really mad that I feel guilty about it.

Thoughts, anyone?

[once removed]

I'm really confused about whether I did the right thing or if I should have just stayed out of it, and I am also really mad that I feel guilty about it.

whats done is, utimately, done. we can either make you feel better or worse about it. it seems to me what matters at the end of the day is whether you believe you did the right thing.

i think the question is if you had it to do over, what, if anything, would you do differently?

[I Am Redeemed]

You know what, or, I think I could have stayed out of it, but in the long run I think I did what is best. This man has given him several chances and my ex has screwed him over every time, and I have no reason to believe that he wouldn't do it again. He does it at every job he gets.

It's certainly not my job to rescue the boss from hiring someone who won't be reliable, but...he asked. I answered, and I answered truthfully. I didn't try to convince him either way, I just answered what he asked, and he made his own decision. If I had said I don't know how he is doing, and he showed up looking like death eating a cracker (which is the description my coworkers gave of him the last time he showed up at my job, roughly two months ago) I'm sure the boss would have put two and two together. He's not unaware of red flags when it comes to signs of drug use. Unfortunately, it's a rather extensive problem in this area of the South.

Thinking about it, if it were me, and I was thinking of hiring someone (again) and I asked for information about whether this person was using drugs still (valid concern) I would want to be told the truth.

[once removed]

if it were me, and I was thinking of hiring someone (again) and I asked for information about whether this person was using drugs still

is that what he asked? you mentioned that he asked how he was doing. just trying to be clear.

makes me feel like A Bad Person.  

is it possible that what youre feeling is shame, and not guilt?

[I Am Redeemed]

When he asked how he was doing, that meant "Is he still using and acting crazy?" This isn't the first conversation we have had about my ex. He's a customer of mine and I'm a customer of his, and he knows (without all the dramatic details) that my ex went to jail for assault and had relapsed. He heard it through the grapevine first, and then we've talked about it. Our town is what we call "a big small town"- word gets around here.

is it possible that what youre feeling is shame, and not guilt?

That may be true. For years my instinct was to smooth over my ex's actions, make excuses, hide them altogether, so he didn't experience the full consequence of his actions. Doing the opposite of that meant a barrage of insults and accusations being hurled my way: "You're a sorry so-and-so, you're worthless, you're selfish, you don't care about me, you should have done_____ or _____, a wife is supposed to have her husband's back..." I internalized a lot of that and it fed the core negative message of "I'm not good enough".

[once removed]

For years my instinct was to smooth over my ex's actions, make excuses, hide them altogether, so he didn't experience the full consequence of his actions.

do you think this might have been about reversing that? making him experience the consequences of his actions?

[gizmo7247]

Hi I Am Redeemed,

Just wanted to pop in and first tell you I think you're being too hard on yourself. And second thing I wanted to do was share a bit from my perspective:

So his ex-boss asked you how he's doing. You weren't sticking your nose in, you were asked. In my job, I do a lot of hiring. And because I've managed so many people in my career, I also get asked for a lot of job referrals. I've been in several situations where I get asked for a referral, or opinions, on someone for a new position. (someone I've worked with in the past.)

My word and credibility mean a lot to me. So I'm always honest. Earlier in my career there were a couple instances where I felt bad, and so I gave people good recommendations (when I knew they weren't a good fit.) It bit me in the rear every time, and I lost credibility.

I guess you could have told his ex-boss that you didn't know. So maybe that's a grey area, but I very much liken your story to when I get asked for a job recommendation for an old colleague.


Second - his accusations of you sabotaging him are just projection, and a pwBPD's inability to take accountability. If he was doing wonderfully, and you'd told the ex-boss he was doing horribly (you lied)...okay, that would be sabotaging him. But that's not what you did.

You told the truth. And if the truth sabotages him, then he's sabotaging himself - right?

[Cromwell]

Hi I am Redeemed

I just wanted to partially reiterate the last line of what gizmo has said - when I read through the situation there was not any part where I felt that you have sabotaged anything, ultimately it is up to the manager what he does with the information, but in the same vein as what Gizmo says - it was his choice to take amphetamines no-one else's, the consequences of it (and you mentioned taking responsibility for actions) is squarely on his shoulders.

this is not a guy harvesting potatoes in a field, he is someone with a suspected substance misuse issue that is trying to find work on cars - if you had chosen to say nothing about your suspicions of his recent past along with your knowledge of him expecting you to cover up his faults - it opens up more of a moral dilemma, how would you feel for example if some family's car ends up overturned in a ditch? Would it lead to new questions of, "i should have said something, if only I had, now it is too late"?

It interests me when I cross reference to similar of how I felt during the relationship and even post relationship, some sort of strange loyalty to her - and obligation not to reveal her dark side, shield her, etc. I think it is partly down to having had to do so much splicing during the time together to only see her 'angelic' side, down to this extreme incapability of her ever being forced to confront the slight notion of her being a "bad person". Having in some ways to delude myself to fit this constructed narrative as much as make the r/s and what she did in it more bearable for it to continue on.

It is all part of the muddy water we get into having to feeling obliged to resort to witholding the truth, it can become habitual as much as the feeling guilty afterwards of simply doing the mature thing. I covered up when my ex stole from her work, all to fit this narrative that she exclaimed early on in the relationship "im not a thief". I think from my experience with not just her but others is a theme of "im not x,y,z so long as im not caught or exposed" a bit like how in childhood id watch the adult channel late at night and was seen as well behaved, "good", until I got caught doing so and had to feel shame for it. I got over it, these types of people cant handle it. He wont ever come to the conclusion that he did not get this job because he chose to take amphetamines, it will be converted to "i would have got it had I not been ruined by my vindictive ex - now I have to plan B, go to another town, or another employer and reinvent myself".

This might seem a bold statement that to someone who reads into black and white stick only to the facts might counter-act, it really comes under something called profiling. Psychologists do this and it is rooted in experience, he fits a profile and falls under it due to his past. It can be hard to obtain formal references nowadays, due to legal issues, so I can understand why the manager might have made this informal enquiry.

After all the hassle and grief he has caused you, personally I would not even feel an iota of loyalty to someone like that, you owe him absolutely - nothing.

[I Am Redeemed]

do you think this might have been about reversing that? making him experience the consequences of his actions?

Well, maybe not directly. I think it more or less speaks to the fact that I have broken out of that habit, possibly because I just haven't felt pressured to do it in a long time. I guess that emotionally I still have one foot in the old pattern, so to speak.

Gizmo, thank you for your perspective. What you said is true, and honestly I am so critical if myself that if I didn't say anything, I would probably be on here posting about wondering if that was right or not

It is true that he sabotages himself. He is so paranoid that he literally thinks that people actively try to prevent him from making any progress for himself. It's an extreme form of denial and I think it's largely tied to his toxic shame.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Cromwell!

Everything you said makes sense. My ex definitely feels "I'm not xyz unless I get caught", and even then, if he can come up with a good enough excuse or a loophole to get out of the consequences, he's still not "xyz". Mental gymnastics.

I think the strangest part of all this is that he doesn't even know anything about it. He didn't apply for the job. The boss just needed someone and was hoping that my ex had gotten himself together because he's a good worker (for a while). I think his issues are more the mental health than the drugs, because I have seen him sabotage his employment while sober plenty of times... but I didn't go into all that.

I just started to feel like I could have just kept him from getting a job that he might desperately need (my own projection... I don't know if he needs a job or not). The last news I had from him was a few weeks ago and the messages were full of paranoid ramblings, accusations, blame, and delusional thinking.

I think I am making progress, though, as far as emotions go. I made the choice last night that I would stop worrying about this because it's not something I need to focus energy on right now. And I did stop. I haven't thought about it since, except for while reading this thread. That's a far cry from the obsessive rumination i used to do.

[formflier]

IAR

You have a relationship with the person that asked.  There is an element of trust there,since you trust him with your car.

He obviously knows your ex's issues and history...so there was no new information there.

So...with someone like that, a question of "how is (x) doing" means a lot more than from someone that has no idea or is just a casual acquaintance.

I'll extend the thought a little bit more.  If you were looking to buy a car and you asked about what that this guy had worked on...and you asked "How is this car doing?"  You would expect him to say "Those people don't bring it to me anymore, I fear they are not maintaining it like they should."

He could "stay out of it"...just like you had that choice, but you knew what he was asking and you knew the impact of that hire on this guys business.

He would "know" the impact of you buying a poorly maintained car.

Does all this ring true to you...or am I looking at it weird?

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

FF,

You are absolutely right, and that is how I saw it as well until the inner critic kicked in and my emotions started clouding my confidence in my choice. I guess I was just reeling a little from the setback to an emotional state I thought I had worked past... but I seem to have found a centered place with it more quickly than I used to, so that's something.

I think part of it too is that I like "win/win" outcomes, and I feel responsible if I can't make that happen.

[formflier]

  the inner critic kicked in and my emotions started clouding my confidence in my choice.

It's good that you have this.  Self reflection and (even better) reaching out to others to help you evaluate what you did/how you approached it...is a wise thing.

I can still have some odd emotions here and there.  (about "the old days").  I think of it like an old sports injury flaring up.  Care for it and move on...realizing it is what it is.

Best,

FF

[Longterm]

Hi IAR.

I think the guilt is incredible difficult to handle at times but I feel as though you told the truth and that's what's important. What if you didn't and there was an accident as a result of you lying or not informing your exes old boss of his continued irresponsibility? That would probably make you feel a whole lot worse I'm guessing.

Setbacks are normal and to be expected I feel, your doing great and don't lose sight of that, you'll shake that guilty feeling off soon enough.

LT.

[I Am Redeemed]

FF, that's exactly what it feels like- an old injury flaring up, and then it goes away. It's also not nearly as intense as the original "injury".

LT, thank you. Those things went through my mind too. God knows it's a blessing he hasn't already caused an accident or injury to someone or something.

Just recently I tried to hook up the dryer I have had in storage since the last place I lived with ubpdh ex. I couldn't plug it in, and I realized that he had taken pliers and straightened out the third prong on the dryer plug in order to force it to work in the socket at our last house. I remember him saying he was doing something to make it work when we moved in there and the plug didn't match, but I assumed he changed the cord instead of this. What if that had caused a fire in that mobile home we lived in? I had to go get a new cord and change it out and the whole time I was thinking how careless that had been.

[once removed]

If I had said I don't know how he is doing, and he showed up looking like death eating a cracker (which is the description my coworkers gave of him the last time he showed up at my job, roughly two months ago) I'm sure the boss would have put two and two together.

those would have been the consequences of his actions.

For years my instinct was to smooth over my ex's actions, make excuses, hide them altogether, so he didn't experience the full consequence of his actions. Doing the opposite of that meant a barrage of insults and accusations being hurled my way

the power struggles are over. this dynamic died when the relationship did. youre not responsible (either way) for his actions anymore, only yours.

you feel guilt or shame over your actions.

from a friend to a friend, what im hearing is "i feel badly about what i did. thats uncomfortable for me. help me to feel better about it." i think your feelings are trying to tell you something valuable that has a lot to do with attachment.

if you did the wrong thing (in accordance with your values, not ours), its not the end of the world. it doesnt make you a bad person. its not about beating yourself up. its about owning it, and the choices you can make in the future. shame wins when we avoid that.

it sounds like you value telling the truth. but the truth is, you dont know for certain whether or not hes using drugs, even if you may have a pretty good idea. volunteering that information can make you legally liable, in fact. the truth is, even if "how is he doing" is actually an invitation to tell him about drug use, you dont have to take it. was there anything positive said about him? that also would have been the truth.

i dont think the truth here is black and white.

Thinking about it, if it were me

question: if your ex did this to you, and he told the truth, would you still feel that it was the right thing?

[Turkish]

The guy asked you that for a reason.  He had doubts. Your reputation as a credible witness was also online. You gave your credible opinion as a credible person. Your ex is responsible (or irresponsible) for himself. 

[once removed]

job referrals
looking to buy a car and you asked about what that this guy had worked on
credible witness

everybody: remember, we are talking about two exes, with a bad and painful history, who have bitterness toward each other, have not spoken in a very long time, and are headed toward divorce.

that divorce is a really important consideration when we are talking about reputations and disclosures made by either party.

[I Am Redeemed]

On my phone, so I'm not going to try to quote.

Yes, if he was contacted about the job and he showed up still in the mental state he was in as recently as three weeks ago, that's on him. But, as I said before, he didn't apply for this job. He has not spoken to this man in three years. He doesn't know that this man was considering calling him to work. That said, I doubt there will ever be legal repercussions to consider here. It's not like he was trying to get a job and I shut that down.

I don't know if he even needs a job. He was working with someone else after getting fired, probably off paper for cash, according to his mom.

I do value truth. That includes the truth about me. If my feelings are trying to tell me something, I want to know what and why. I want to know if the message is valid or invalid. I also want to search my motives for my choices. Self deception can cause people to believe that the motives on the surface are all there are. That's not always true...and I value truth...there are complex factors that can drive choices, decisions, thoughts, and emotions. My analytical self wants to untangle those. I believe there's progress and growth to be gained in that.

As for wanting reassurance so I feel better...why, whatever gave you that idea

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi I Am Redeemed,

Those thoughts and feelings of second guessing are all too strong at times, aren't they? Sometimes I can quiet the inner critic, but other times, those times when I am feeling vulnerable and down, tired, depressed...those are the times when the inner critic is the strongest. It's not all bad that you go back and take a look at what happened and learn/see what took place, but don't rake yourself over the coals for it. Grace, love, kindness...for you. 

I heard something the other day that poked at my sore places: "It's not your husband's lies that do the most damage to you. It's the lies you tell yourself."  The inner critic is far too good at telling me lies, and I am so quick to believe them. Hang in there. You bounced back quicker as you mentioned. That's a great sign of progress and healing!

 
Wools

[I Am Redeemed]

Thank you, Wools!

I have lived with the inner critic so long, as long as I can remember, honestly. It grew louder and louder over the years.

I would like to get to the point where I can self reflect without my emotions trying to label me as bad, flawed, wrong, undeserving, etc. I would like to stop the message that I have always screwed up and always will screw up.

I watched one of my favorite Christian speakers this morning talk about the lies we can believe, and some of the ways we deceive ourselves. The lie that "I am flawed and I will never have victory in my life" was the first thing she mentioned. I wrote that down. It's very much how I feel sometimes. The good news is that I used to feel that way all the time, so at least it's not like that anymore.

[Cat Familiar]

I totally understand the second guessing of oneself. To me, that indicates that you were looking at the situation from multiple perspectives. And that's commendable.    Too often people only view things from their own vantage point.

You were asked in the moment about his current state of mind. And you'd had a recent snapshot of what was going on with him. You answered honestly. All good.

If you had tried to shield him from the truth, to me, that would be a tell that you were still entwined and trying to protect him.

[formflier]

Here is another perspective.

Let's say your relationship was on the mend with hubby.  If you had mentioned he was doing better and that you were hopeful about the relationship, what do you think the shop owner would have done?

I'm guessing he would have offered the job.

Many small business people are not "just" about the bottom line. 


Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

FF, yes, I am sure he would have called him if he had heard that he was doing better and was stable, even if our r/s status remained the same. He was willing to forgive and forget the past (fired once from this job, quit the second time) but he was just concerned that he was not stable enough to be reliable.

Cat, that's what I was leaning toward when I said that my habit for years was to hide his behavior or clean up his messes. I thought I had to protect him from the fallout of his actions. Part of that was because I was afraid of his reaction if I didn't, part of it was being afraid of being judged for remaining in a r/s with him, part of it was because I thought I was helping in some way if I kept him from being fired, arrested, broke, homeless, etc. and all of it was to avoid feeling guilt and shame in myself.

I have broken the pattern to smooth things over, rescue, protect from consequences, which really is huge for me. It's no longer the instinct I have. The guilt and shame still linger a bit. It wasn't nearly as strong as before, though, because I didn't feel the immediate pull to avoid it. It happened after the fact, and it was kind of like a residual emotional feeling- not as intense as it used to be. It was still uncomfortable, but it was like I was able to analyze it while still feeling it. I don't know how to explain that, but I know that before, the feelings were so prominent that they were overwhelming and I couldn't focus on anything else.