Part 2: Need advice regarding silent treatment

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

*mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338844.0

I too always felt, that one day my current wife would eventually leave (gut feeling), but it didn't expect her to go after my S32 autistic, and be physically abusive … yeah, the mind and the heart are always fighting, while the "gut instinct" sits on the sidelines, and says, "told you so!" ….

Hang in there SH4, Red5

Red,

Thank you so much for all of your insight.  It's very sad, but it's nice to know I'm not crazy and not alone in this.  Everything with your kids and step kids, that's when it gets hard.  I GET IT.  That was the straw that broke the camels back with me.  She made me choose between her and my kids.  So I lost it and said nasty things, that apparently, in her mind, justify a divorce.  I think I called her an evil B word and hurt her pride.  ((HUGS) to you.  You are going through so much that is the same as me.  It's hard and I know it will never get easier.  I just worry what will happen when I say enough already I do deserve better.

Thanks
SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

*mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338844.0

I too always felt, that one day my current wife would eventually leave (gut feeling), but it didn't expect her to go after my S32 autistic, and be physically abusive … yeah, the mind and the heart are always fighting, while the "gut instinct" sits on the sidelines, and says, "told you so!" ….

Hang in there SH4, Red5

Red,

Thank you so much for all of your insight.  It's very sad, but it's nice to know I'm not crazy and not alone in this.  Everything with your kids and step kids, that's when it gets hard.  I GET IT.  That was the straw that broke the camels back with me.  She made me choose between her and my kids.  So I lost it and said nasty things, that apparently, in her mind, justify a divorce.  I think I called her an evil B word and hurt her pride.  ((HUGS) to you.  You are going through so much that is the same as me.  It's hard and I know it will never get easier.  I just worry what will happen when I say enough already I do deserve better.

Thanks
SH4

[Enabler]

Let’s put that worry in writing, what do you think will happen?

I’ve been shocked in the past what does happen... to me, and to my W.

[Stillhopeful4]

Let’s put that worry in writing, what do you think will happen?

Enabler,

My thoughts are she will move out by Sept 1st at the latest, if not sooner.  I think she will wait until October to actually file for divorce.  I don't think she will keep in contact with me during that time.  I hope she starts to miss me before the holidays and my birthday.  This time is different than all the other times that she has left.  I think she's at or pretty close to "rock bottom".  I'm not sure she will come back around.

[Enabler]

Okay, what specifically worries you about what she is going to do? I can guess but it would be better if you told me.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Okay, what specifically worries you about what she is going to do? I can guess but it would be better if you told me.

Enabler

It worries me that she's going to buy a house which would be very permanent, or sign a one year lease.  She will need to buy all her furniture, she really doesn't have the money for this and will get in debt again.  She goes into flight mode and self destructs. The thing is I know she will come back.  Once she cools off, although it's been more than two months and she's completely miserable.  This is what she does, but usually she leaves immediately then comes back around in a few weeks.  It's happened with me multiple times and with all of her previous relationships.  She is angry right now that I'm showing her love because this is "all she ever wanted", even though I was always showing it to her she just wasn't receptive to it.  I love her and I want to stand by her and I don't want her to leave, but it's almost like I know she has to in order to miss me and our family.

Thanks,
SH4

[Honkytop]

One word, mindfulness…

Her inner wounded child is standing guard over her, … and is running the show … win at all costs, protect through control, I've read a lot about this … bpd is trauma based (?) … ie' childhood trauma … so you are arguing with a teenager, that is guarding over a six year old, or even younger … lots going on in there !

*Caveat … every case, relationship, person is different … I am only offering my own learnings, as it pertains to my own wife, and the ex-wife before her, "operational experience".

I did a lot wrong for a long time … "if only I'd known different",

This type of speech - communicative dynamic, … in which she is basically verbally attacking you, for lack of a better word, is nothing more than "bait" … projection, remember that.

Remember, when she does come out of it, there will be two modes … nice, and not nice, assuming she is not nice mode, and goes right back to a semi-rage type tone with you, she is now once again belittling you, blaming you, shaming you, placing all the fault with you, … this is projection … her feelings are her version of the facts, her inner "wounded self" is not going to allow you to gain the upper hand, to win, she is not going to be reasoned with … she is still very angry, … now … the four pillars of dialectical behavior therapy … are;

*mindfulness ~> (mental levity - lability)
*distress tolerance ~> (this one is crucial, don't take it personally, observe don't absorb)
*interpersonal effectiveness ~> (don't JADE)
*emotional regulation ~> (huge, keep your emotions in check)

You must practice this, when she is in your grill, this is pretty hard to do, but can be done with practice - rehearsal.

Basically, don't take the bait, … obverse, don't absorb, if you absorb, you are now taking it personally, and you will very soon, in seconds, minutes … you will slip into JADE, and then onto defensive mental hand to hand combat with her … and then its off to the races … another no win argument, and then right back to her fear of abandonment, and she will shut you out again, split you, and most likely right back to ST.

As you observe, say one liners, use "I" statements ….
* "I am listening, I'm right here, … "I am trying to understand your emotions" …

Now use SET (support - empathy - truth)…
* "Your feelings and emotions are important to me." … "Tell me what I can do to make you feel comfortable here, I love you very much, I want you to feel good about our marriage" … "I want to feel your emotions, feelings so that we can better communicate" …

Something like that.

*dial it down.
*don't make it worse.
*choose your words carefully, think and edit before you speak.
*be mindful of you own mannerisms, facial expressions, body language.

Remember, if she is "dialed up" and quickly approaching "full bloom" … there isn't any reasoning with her, there is no explaining the facts … she isn't going to listen to anything you say, she doesn't respect your version, your opinions … you aren't going to ever win, don't even try … be passive, and just listen … "gently push it along" … she is going to "jab", take cheep shots at you verbally, just don't take the bait.

You must understand, one of the biggest tenants of the bpd mindset is "victimization" … "I am the victim here, you are the persecutor" … "your just like everyone else, your out to get me, to hurt me, to destroy me" … that's what you may be dealing with, when the "side-ways" projections are coming out.

"I hate you don't leave me" … meanwhile they are pushing you away ?

Offer her instead ...

* "I respect your point of view, that's good for me to know now, I am beginning to understand how you are feeling now, thank you for explaining that to me."

Remember, 98.99% of her bravo sierra is projection … fact is, borderlines (spectrum?) will often, and unapologetically verbally abuse their closet partners, in your world, and mine, its our wives whom use us as an emotional teething ring …

I use this tool, when the going gets tough, and I'm caught short, and she is in my grill … the three "D's",
*disengage - don't JADE, don't try to fight it out, STOP!
*detach - stop contributing to her private argument, cut off the gas, the oxygen, maybe even leave the sector, "I'm going for a walk, I need some space, my head is spinning (be honest), I'll be back in 20 minutes."
*defend - engage mindfulness, introspection, mental inventory, "I love her, she is my wife, but she is not being reasonable right now, don't threaten her out of anger and hurt, ensure she knows that I'm right here, but don't fight anymore, this will blow over, remember the tools, SET, validate … don't take it personally."

Another "tool" … SLED
*S - STOP (just stop fighting, talking, speaking, she isn't listening anyways)
*L- Listen (mindfulness)
*E- Engage (tools)
*D- Defend (protect the marriage- relationship, don't go nuclear, tools tools tools, or detach before you lose it)

Whew! ... thoughts?

Red5

so valuable information. PRICELESS!
thank you very much!@

[Enabler]

As I understand it:

You're worried that she's going to spend money she doesn't have setting up a new life outside the family home.

You're not worried (less worried) about the prospects of her returning and believe that she will return in 'some period of time' down the track once her emotions have levelled out.

Have I got that right?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

As I understand it:

You're worried that she's going to spend money she doesn't have setting up a new life outside the family home.

You're not worried (less worried) about the prospects of her returning and believe that she will return in 'some period of time' down the track once her emotions have levelled out.

Have I got that right?

Enabler

Sort of.  I'm worried that her spending the money she doesn't have to set up a "new life" is not going to make her happy anyway.  I know her, I know her patterns.  Like I said, she has done this multiple times before.  As soon as she's "settled" she will text me and tell me it didn't help and she's miserable and misses all of us.  But it's like she needs to do it and feel it in order to realize it.  (That's where I start to feel down on myself, as if it takes all of THAT for her to realize she just left her entire family (wife, kids, grandkids & pets) to be alone because she feels her life is so bad).  I just wish she would realize the deep down issue and that she would even entertain the fact that she possibly has BPD so we can both educate ourselves and try new tools in our relationship moving forward.

[Enabler]

It sounds more like a frustration then a worry. I can see how the financial cost would be a worry as I guess the liability would fall on the family to pick up. The frustration being that she keeps doing this and cannot see her own dysfunction. Do you feel that there are any consequences that SHE will experience using this method of escape... does she bare the cost,? when she returns do you place any boundaries as to what she needs to do to STOP this cycle happening time and time again? What in the past have you done to pick up the pieces for her when she returns?

This is a pattern that works for her. She's somewhat oblivious about the carnage she inflicts on everyone else and I wonder whether or not everyone is so relieved to see her come back that they forget to make her feel any consequences for the choices that she's made. If you strongly suspect this cycle is likely to repeat itself, firstly, what choices are you wanting to make if she says "I messed up and want to come home", secondly what things are you going to put in place to make her aware of the consequences of her actions now.

This is a tricky one, in many senses I can see that you don't want to push her or alienate her, or even show anything but loving behaviour... but it's almost like the more you show her love the faster she wants to run in the opposite direction. When she gets emotional quiet, she reflects and comes running back. I'm in a similar position now myself. For me, it's almost as though every time I say "fine, there's the door, go fill your boots with freedom", she stops running, she's still walking but not running. I know I can thrive out of the relationship... heck even if she left me with the 3 kids (which would be awesome) and was never to be seen again... I'd totally boss life. I'm not afraid of her leaving OR deciding to stay... it's the limbo bit I struggle with.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Enable thank you for your reply!

What in the past have you done to pick up the pieces for her when she returns?

I pay off her credit cards and also pay all the current house bills so she lives there basically for free.

firstly, what choices are you wanting to make if she says "I messed up and want to come home", secondly what things are you going to put in place to make her aware of the consequences of her actions now.

She won't come back like that.  I will have to beg her to come back.  She will never admit any fault.  I will have to say it was all my fault in order for her to come back.

I'm not afraid of her leaving OR deciding to stay... it's the limbo bit I struggle with.

((Hugs) this is all so hard.

[Enabler]

What would happen if you let the proverbial land where it lands, don’t beg, stand back and wait (whilst internally dying I know)?

I begged...  it pushed her further away... I pointed at proverbial on the floor and said “look look... your proverbial on the floor”, all this serves to do was push her further away.

Do you want to recycle? Is there a way of speeding up the middle bit and guiding her to minimise the costs of that “moment of madness”?

If you don’t want rinse repeat then you need to do something different.

Enabler

[Red5]

I know I can thrive out of the relationship... heck even if she left me with the 3 kids (which would be awesome) and was never to be seen again... I'd totally boss life. I'm not afraid of her leaving OR deciding to stay... it's the limbo bit I struggle with.

This was my life after my first marriage ended, I was a single dad for almost five years… but here is where I messed up, I immediately started dating again, and I was completely clueless about personality disorders, if you can believe that, after what I'd been through in my first marriage…

Then I met "Q", my current ubpdw… I didn't allow time, or else understand that I needed to effectively "heal" from the last twenty-one years… at that time I was age forty-forty-one, and I'd been married since I was eighteen…

*I did not allow myself to heal*

*I did not understand that I even need to*

I imagine neither did "Q", she had also been married previously, for twenty years…

We had both dated in between, me one GF, her about four BF's… each of us had a eight-nine month relationship, romance immediately after we got divorced from our previous spouses.

In retrospect, even though me and "Q" dated for 3.5 years before we married, I still didn't "get it"… there were plenty of red flags, looking back now, but I was quite oblivious… I "thought"… once we get married, and their is stability, in our own home together, she will "calm down"… WRONG   !

She won't come back like that.  I will have to beg her to come back.  She will never admit any fault.  I will have to say it was all my fault in order for her to come back.

Step daughter told me this exact same line, about a week ago… she came down to visit her mom (ubpdw) in her new place, and to help lay new flooring… she called me from the airport the day she left, and wanted to know if "I" (Red5) was alright, and what I was thinking now, as her mum and me have been separated now for eight months plus… yes, exact same line… you (Red5) will have to beg her to come back.  She will never admit any fault.  you will have to say it was all your fault in order for her to come back… wow : (

She told me that her and her brother (steps) both love me, and my kids very much, and that "mom" is the one who is wrong, and that they both know I love their mum… we talked about ubpdw's cancer dx, and what this means… and she repeated what my own S29 told me a week prior… "mom is lonely" she said… she misses you, and the life she had with you and S32 autistic (?).

… wow : (

Red5

[Stillhopeful4]

What would happen if you let the proverbial land where it lands, don’t beg, stand back and wait (whilst internally dying I know)?

I begged...  it pushed her further away... I pointed at proverbial on the floor and said “look look... your proverbial on the floor”, all this serves to do was push her further away.

Do you want to recycle? Is there a way of speeding up the middle bit and guiding her to minimize the costs of that “moment of madness”?

If you don’t want rinse repeat then you need to do something different.

Enabler

Do I want to keep doing this over and over...NO.  Do I not want to give up on her...YES.  I am committed to her even if she's willing to give up on me and herself.  I want to help her.  I've always wanted to help her.  However, at the end of the day I do look at it and say geeee SH4 you have done x, y, z (and on and on) and what has she done for you...I got nothing  and that makes me very sad, because I am better than this...so much better than this.

[Enabler]

Do I want to keep doing this over and over...NO.  Do I not want to give up on her...YES.

Can I ask you to reframe what giving up looks like.

I think I used to perceive giving up as stopping fighting for my wife, fighting for my marriage. I don’t know about you but I have a strong and growing faith, and The fact that we were married in a church is important to me. My vow is not only to my wife, but also to God. Irrespective of my beliefs in God and whom my vows are with, you made a vow and I get the sense it’s important to you. Your word is your bond. Giving up isn’t stopping the aggressing for your marriage, giving up is removing the vital ingredients which could nurture a healthy relationship, an actually marriage rather than the contorted relationships we appear to have. Being true to your vows means NOT adding to conflict, it means leading the way with healthy behaviours, it means saying “if you want to be in a marriage, these behaviours are not welcome”. THE MARRIAGE, THE RELATIONSHIP is there for her, you don’t have to give up on leaving that space where a healthy marriage could occur. To be true to THE MARRIAGE do we have a responsibility to our vows to NOT move that space to a place where we know a real marriage cannot possibly evolve. 

It’s okay to say “I love you and I am committed to our marriage, this is how and where a healthy relationship can occur, our marriage will be waiting for you there.”

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

She told me that her and her brother (steps) both love me, and my kids very much, and that "mom" is the one who is wrong, and that they both know I love their mum … we talked about ubpdw's cancer dx, and what this means … and she repeated what my own S29 told me a week prior … "mom is lonely" she said … she misses you, and the life she had with you and S32 autistic (?).

… wow : (

Red5

Awww Red, I don't know how you do it.  It's so nice to hear that your step kids love you and are there for you during this.  It must be very hard for you with your S32 being on your own 

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

I think I used to perceive giving up as stopping fighting for my wife, fighting for my marriage. I don’t know about you but I have a strong and growing faith, and The fact that we were married in a church is important to me. My vow is not only to my wife, but also to God. Irrespective of my beliefs in God and whom my vows are with, you made a vow and I get the sense it’s important to you. Your word is your bond. Giving up isn’t stopping the aggressing for your marriage, giving up is removing the vital ingredients which could nurture a healthy relationship, an actually marriage rather than the contorted relationships we appear to have. Being true to your vows means NOT adding to conflict, it means leading the way with healthy behaviours, it means saying “if you want to be in a marriage, these behaviours are not welcome”. THE MARRIAGE, THE RELATIONSHIP is there for her, you don’t have to give up on leaving that space where a healthy marriage could occur. To be true to THE MARRIAGE do we have a responsibility to our vows to NOT move that space to a place where we know a real marriage cannot possibly evolve. 

Enabler

Enabler,

I think you lost me.  I read this 3 times and I'm not sure I'm getting it.  But to answer your question me giving up, which is what she wants (she told me this last night).  Would be to ignore her until she leaves, never speak to her again, do not text her or call her and try and fill her head with lies that I love her.  She basically wants me to pretend she or our marriage never existed and she wants me to move on and find someone else and leave her alone and stop "trying" to be nice and save/fix our marriage.

Thanks,
SH4

[Enabler]

One a piece of paper, draw a big circle in the top left hand corner. This is the space where a marriage can and should exist... this is what you CAN keep pursuing i.e. not give up on. This circle contains how a marriage should be (with or without BPD). You can stand, and you can wait in this circle till the point she AND YOU choose to let her back into the circle.

On the bottom right hand corner draw a small circle, that's where she is. This is a zone full of conflict and anger and other things that aren't conducive to a marriage. You keep coming out of your circle on the left attempting to drag her back to your circle... she doesn't want that, she wants to be "over there somewhere". She wants to surround herself with all these things which aren't conducive to a happy loving relationship and I suggest you don't try and go there. Don't try and move your circle across the page towards her, just stand still and stop.

Maybe eventually she'll decide she wants to come back to your circle. Shouldn't there be some conditions to her coming back in your circle, shouldn't there be some conditions that she leaves the things that aren't part of a health marriage into that good pearly white circle?

What I guess I am saying is that YOU don't have to give up on preserving a space for your W and 'the marriage' even if she wants to you to give up on the behaviours that she might associate with you 'fighting for the marriage' e.g. "I love you", "Please stop this". This doesn't mean pushing her away, it just means the very essence of standing. Focus you energy on deciding what is in that space, make that space your family space as well, how are you going to raise your kids without chaos, what clutter do you need to clear from it to make way for greater clarity.

Enabler

[Red5]

…to answer your question me giving up, which is what she wants (she told me this last night).  

Would be to ignore her until she leaves, never speak to her again, do not text her or call her and try and fill her head with lies that I love her.  

She basically wants me to pretend she or our marriage never existed and she wants me to move on and find someone else and leave her alone and stop "trying" to be nice and save/fix our marriage.

This ALL self loathing on her part… all of it!

My first (ex) wife told the the exact same things; several times during our twenty-one year marriage…
*I don't deserve you.
*The children are better off with you.
*I feel empty inside.
*I just want to disappear.

Yes, your wife is full of self loathing, she is hurting on the inside… this is so sad : (

Seems the more we reach out, the harder they push us away, as though they think they don't deserve to be loved by anybody.

That's something I've read many times… the borderline is actually incapable of real love, because of the childhood wounds…

*… but what is real love anyways ?

This is like a defective computer program, perhaps infected with a virus, in the operating system… each time you "boot up", that defective program activates… but it cant load properly, so it just "spins", and "spins… and finally locks up… the "blue screen"… that you cant reason with it, or talk to it, or interact with it… its just "blue"… with some code that keep running across the screen, incoherent "code".

This is the mind, and personality of a borderline… defective code was uploaded when they were children (?)… and it keeps trying to rectify itself to itself, it keeps trying to "fix" itself, but there are missing pieces, so no matter how hard it try's, it cant… it never can complete that function due to the defective programing that was infected by a virus…

This is maddening… I know,

I think the best we can do is what Enabler is saying (I've taken "liberties" here), Giving up isn’t stopping or egressing (eg' departure, think ejection seat) from your marriage, giving up is removing the vital ingredients which could nurture a healthy relationship, an actuall marriage rather than the contorted relationship we appear to have. Being true to your vows means NOT adding to conflict, it means leading the way with healthy behavior's,

Said another way (Red5's language)… since you cant communicate with a defective program (computer, mind, personality), you need to stop trying to do so… you need to refer to the "work-around-procedures"… try a new approach… install some spyware, get the hard drive re-imaged, find and delete the corrupt files that are preventing proper operation, and are creating the constant "pop-ups", and need for "re-boots"… if your way of communicating with your wife is not working, stop that mode of communicating… find out what works for her, her code, her laungage… right now she says she is leaving, and she wants you to find someone else… don't JADE with her… don't fight that with her… she is "stuck"… her mind is going round and round… and she wants to pull the plug in order to make the "round and round" stop, I don't think it has anything to do with you… this is her inner self controlling her… that sacred little girl inside is calling the shots… that scared little girl that is afraid of everyone and everything… and she is pushing you away… as hard as she can… "stranger danger"…

So what do you do… well; you show empathy, and validate her… but how?

* "I can feel your emotions, and I can feel your pain, and I know that you are hurting inside.", (empathy & validation). *

Her feelings are absolutely real and painful to her... no matter how illogical they may seem to you (us).

I think that the harder you try to hold on to her, and to try to convive her that she is making a mistake (again)… its only going to make her even more; want to leave… that's the tough part of all of this… and you've been doing it for eight plus years now… that scared little girl in there has got to be in control… always!

Kind of like telling someone… who has just fallen off their mountain bike, and twisted their leg, and has a huge bump on their head…

"Hey man, you ok'… you're going to be just fine, suck up that pain, and get back on your bike, we can still make it for beer thirty… the others are waiting, come on now, lets go!"

When an 'empathetic validative' remark may sound something like…

"Wow dude, that was quite a spill you just took, wow… holly molly man… look at your front tire!, and your knee, whoa… that's quite a gash on your head there too… that looks painful man… maybe you better drink some water , and catch your breath"… "I'll stay here with you ok."...

Any of my bravo sierra make any sense SH4?

I guess what I'm trying to convey, and not doing so well at it… is this… your wife is self loathing, she is not happy in her own skin (so to speak)… and that's a problem  … if she doesn't love herself, then there is not going to be any love for anyone else either, that includes you SH4… that's tough, but that's the way it is... if she was never taught how to love anybody, from childhood (?)… how in the world is she going to be able to give you love… well she's not… and that's what we all seem to deal with, in one extreme to another here…

Tough Stuff : (

Keep posting SH4!

Red5

[Stillhopeful4]

One a piece of paper, draw a big circle in the top left hand corner. This is the space where a marriage can and should exist... this is what you CAN keep pursuing i.e. not give up on. This circle contains how a marriage should be (with or without BPD). You can stand, and you can wait in this circle till the point she AND YOU choose to let her back into the circle.

On the bottom right hand corner draw a small circle, that's where she is. This is a zone full of conflict and anger and other things that aren't conducive to a marriage. You keep coming out of your circle on the left attempting to drag her back to your circle... she doesn't want that, she wants to be "over there somewhere". She wants to surround herself with all these things which aren't conducive to a happy loving relationship and I suggest you don't try and go there. Don't try and move your circle across the page towards her, just stand still and stop.

Maybe eventually she'll decide she wants to come back to your circle. Shouldn't there be some conditions to her coming back in your circle, shouldn't there be some conditions that she leaves the things that aren't part of a health marriage into that good pearly white circle?

What I guess I am saying is that YOU don't have to give up on preserving a space for your W and 'the marriage' even if she wants to you to give up on the behaviours that she might associate with you 'fighting for the marriage' e.g. "I love you", "Please stop this". This doesn't mean pushing her away, it just means the very essence of standing. Focus you energy on deciding what is in that space, make that space your family space as well, how are you going to raise your kids without chaos, what clutter do you need to clear from it to make way for greater clarity.

Enabler

I'm crying...this is so great.  Thank you so much for "drawing" this out for me and making me see it clearly!  I really can't thank you enough for helping me visualize this.

[Stillhopeful4]

Any of my bravo sierra make any sense SH4?


Red5

LOL, yes Red, I followed your BS very nicely.  Thank you.  So bottom line, is what you are saying...that she will never come around because she never learned how to love and this is how she will always be?

I can relate to so many things  you say and so many of the examples you have.  Thank you, it makes me feel not completely alone in this chaos.

SH4

[Red5]

...”So bottom line, is what you are saying...that she will never come around because she never learned how to love and this is how she will always be?”

You have shared that you’ve been married to your SO wife for eight years now, so take inventory... how she acted over eight years... what is her default behavior pattern?

Whom has she shown you she is, above and beyond her words, what she has told you, who is she as it pertains to her physical actions... Enabler has shown us the circles... I suggest a straight line... representing eight years, with  a hash mark declination separating each year... now start with the first year and right notes of what happened in that year,  write out both the good and bad... do the same for each subsequent year...

Now, add year nine... which is still blank... now what would you think these new notes are going to look like...what do you think you will be writing there after this #9 year passes... using year 1-8 as a guide... a template... what does the history tell you...

What will year #9 look like, do you think it will be different from #’s 1-8?

I know this is tough ; (

This is something we all face... some of us have even been doing this for a lot longer... so what makes us stay?

*fear
*obligation
*guilt
*commitment
*responsibility
*love

Why have you stayed this long SH4? 

Red5

[Enabler]

This is a great exercise not only from a reality check perspective but also to see patterns of behaviour. For example I never realised how little time there was between her leaving the last time till conceiving our first daughter. I never even considered her a bandaid baby, I guess I was just swept up in the euphoria of the recycle.

I guess my point is not that she won’t change, it’s that she won’t change until she wants to do the work and has an incentive to do so. Moving the relationship (the circle) to her just means that you will never achieve your goal which is a healthy marriage (with BPD in it). You may achieve other aims like having her physically with you, but it’s unlikely to stay healthy for long. The marriage as a space and concept isn’t achieved, you just have a housemate who runs off periodically and yells at you. Show her where that space is, show her in the way that you interact with your family, friends and other people, if she wants to come there then great, but let her know by your actions and boundaries  that there are rules and guidelines for being allowed in. 

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

You have shared that you’ve been married to your SO wife for eight years now, ... so take inventory ... how she acted over eight years ... what is her default behavior pattern?

Why have you stayed this long SH4? 

Red5

I have laid it all out... I know where and why it waxes and wanes.  It's about a 6-9 month cycle of good, then 6 of bad, then a discard and a recycle.

I've stayed so long because I do love her for the person she is deep down when she's not discarding me.  She has a great heart and love my kids and will do anything for us.  But when she's done, she's DONE.  She says she needs to get out and get away to make the anger and hurt go away.  She says it's just chaos in our house and she needs calm.  She does not see that she has any part of the chaos.  I don't consider teenagers coming and going and the dogs barking at 10 PM when they come home "constant chaos" like she considers it.  She said she hates that I have been so nice for the past 8 weeks and always trying to do nice things for her and telling her I love her.  And where has this been for the past 8 years?  It's been here, this is me, she just didn't see it.  It makes me so sad that she doesn't believe me.  She wants everything to be all about her and for the minute I might spend time with the kids because they need me she thinks I'm turning my back on her.  I'm not... I'm still here for you but I am going to give them some attention too.  I love her, I just don't think she will ever realize she has BPD and until she does can she ever move forward, with anyone, not just me?  My heart breaks for her.  I want her to be happy and I will support her even when she moves out.  Sometimes I feel like a fool, but she is my wife, for better or worse.  I want to stand by her and let her figure it out.  (But at the end of the day, there is something inside of me saying look, you are strong beautiful woman, she doesn't want you...just let her go...but I can't give up on her)

Thanks,
SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

Show her where that space is, show her in the way that you interact with your family, friends and other people, if she wants to come there then great, but let her know by your actions and boundaries  that there are rules and guidelines for being allowed in. 

Enabler

Enabler,

I try this, however when I do she says things like, see you don't care about me, you just want to go to park and have fun with the kids while I stay home and cry.  I try and tell her that it's been a few months and I stay home and talk to her while she's crying for hours and I might take an hour on the weekend and take the kids somewhere, I invite her to come, but she doesn't want them to have to be around her like this.  She says she needs to get out of the house and get away from it all in order to stop hurting and all her anxiety.  She has no other family really except for her elderly mom.  She say in the past that her friends are her family and she revolved her life around them and what they do...and always had a hand full of friends to do something with.  Our family has finally given her stability that she's never had for the past 8+ years.  I just don't know what to do.  I don't want to give up.  But I'm getting really sick of hearing that I don't love her and this isn't love this is a sick twisted mind %u*k.  I just want to be happy, I want her to be happy...and I want peace...I want to stop walking on eggshells that she's going to blow up if I don't get home and do xyz before she gets home or if I don't ask to do something with the correct tone.

I really appreciate all of your advise.  Thank you for taking the time to explain your journey and listen to mine.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

And on another note...

She says all the key words.  She says she needs to walk on eggshells around me.  She's also says she's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.  She talks about circular conversations, gas lighting and constant chaos.  She claims she has relationship troubles with all aspects of her life right now, family, friends, co-workers.  So my question is...how can she not see it... how can she not dig deeper, how can she blame me (remember her old therapist told her to read walking on eggshells and she's convinced I have BPD)?

I have so much hope, but I also know until she realizes this and starts using tools to help her stop turning her feelings into truth then she will never be able to work through any of this.

Thanks for listening
SH4

[Red5]

...just let her go...but I can't give up on her.

I can’t do it either, same with first (x) wife, I stayed way too long, but I tell myself... it was for the kids, result... single Dad for almost five years.

I can’t let go of my current wife either... even after she hit my Son... I still think I can fix things, practice “radical acceptance”, be on guard so her and my special needs Son can live under the same roof once again.

She has been gone and living on her own now for nine months come Aug 31st, she has bought a house, drives the jeep I pay for... and lives off of her disability... and meanwhile she is carrying a stage IV cancer dx.

Who am I kidding right?

But I have no intentions of divorcing her... which Dec 1st will be the required 1yr waiting period here in North Carolina  ...  meanwhile I continue seeing “T”, and I read, continue to learn and strive to increase understanding, and I work on “me”.

Even after nine long months, she is still so angry, she projects... she blames, she shames me... she has not budged in her demeanor at all.

We had a good evening here several weeks ago, I’d fixed a piece of furntiture for her, and spent some time with her, wine, a hug and the first kiss since separating... and what did she do, as soon as I got back home that night, she texts me, calls me and lets me have it, and what was it about... my Son once again... and when he will see his mother (x), and once she had a ‘beach head’ there, she opened up everything else... this went on for three hours, past the hour of midnight...

I did fairly well for a little while...’but she wore me down’... and I slipped into JADE... but finally disengaged... which was met with more fury... I guess she just needed supply that night, as we had seemed to be doing somewhat better up until that evening... can’t have that now can we : (

I can certainly relate to the cycle... we were on an eleven day cycle... with about every other year (Christmas) being a huge meltdown and extinction burst event... terrible... she would actually tear down the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve... yeah,

The fuse that set her off on my Son, was her elderly pup passing away the morning before... you see, there is always a fuse that pops and sets them off... no mindfulness  ...  no ability to process...  no self soothing... their version of this is to attack... so she went after my Son the next morning because he “was taking too long in the bathroom”...’we live in a four bedroom home with three bathrooms... he has his own, we have an “opulent” master bath... and there is a half in the laundry room...but she went after him... while he was getting ready for his day program... she was obviously dysregulates from our beloved pup passing... so she went after the autistic who cannot in any way properly process or understand her rage...  

But yet I too hang on as do you SH4,

Red5

[Enabler]

On a side note I just realised you were a she... it’s funny how advice really know know gender or sexuality boundaries... as we were.

Your W has an allergy to guilt and shame. It’s not uncommon at all, in fact I would go so far as to say it’s super common for pwBPD to reject any diagnosis or even fluctuate between acceptance and rejection. I can think of multiple board members who have had suicidal partners who have gone to secure units, been diagnosed and then later rejected professional opinion having accepted it in the secure unit. There seems to be a seed there, I don’t know how you fertilise that seed to grow. Maybe not refer to it as BPD and refer to it as being emotionally sensitive. There’s a couples therapy book (can’t remember the name) which is supposed to be super good. It doesn’t refer to BPD but the workbook (you read it together) may as well be a BPD therapy guide.

The thing is, sometimes you can only see the light when you’re in the dark

I wonder whether or not spending hours and hours talking to her validates the invalid, it gives attention to tantrums albeit ones full of sadness not anger. You are clearly caring and attentive , but sometimes she’s feeling stuff you just can’t find validity in and she needs to be left to work that out on her own.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

But yet I too hang on as do you SH4,

Red5

Red,

((Hugs) I can't imagine.  Your poor son and poor you!  Is your wife aware she has BPD?  That must have been really hard for you the night you went to visit.  It must have given you some hope...until you got home and she started.  I hope things get better for you.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

On a side note I just realised you were a she... it’s funny how advice really know know gender or sexuality boundaries... as we were.

LOL...I hope that is ok?

There’s a couples therapy book (can’t remember the name) which is supposed to be super good. It doesn’t refer to BPD but the workbook (you read it together) may as well be a BPD therapy guide.

I just bought "The High Conflict Couple"  Say's it doesn't reference BPD but is says it on the cover.  I started reading it.  She won't read it with me because she's "done trying".  She says I will never change.

I wonder whether or not spending hours and hours talking to her validates the invalid, it gives attention to tantrums albeit ones full of sadness not anger. You are clearly caring and attentive , but sometimes she’s feeling stuff you just can’t find validity in and she needs to be left to work that out on her own.

That's a good point.  When we talk she does say "this just confirms you aren't hearing me and this is the right thing to do" (regarding her leaving).  I hear her that she's angry and hurt and that she didn't want it to come to this, but this IS happening.  But it's also her choice to leave our family.  She says it's not a choice that it's what she NEEDS to do to stop the pain.  I can't understand that.  I hear her, but I don't understand.

SH4

[Enabler]

Similarly my W disowns the choice to divorce. Like most things whoch leave her open to being “responsible” for something she derives a narrative where she isn’t responsible.