Guilt as a means of coping with no control?

[Harri]

Hi.  I was reading through some old threads of mine and came across this from our Board Parrot Kwamina.  When he posted it to me, I skipped over his comment and question about guilt.  I had relayed a story about abuse my brother experienced from my mom and talked about feeling responsible and guilty for his experience.  Kwamina questioned that and rightly so.  I guess I was not in a place to look at it then.  Here is part of what he said to me:

... The guilt actually can give us a sense of control as if we as little children actually would have had the power to prevent all the abuse from happening. In a way I think that feeling guilty or assuming the mantle of guilt can also be an attempt of our mind to try and control the uncontrollable. How do you feel about this?
The Board Parrot

When I look at this now I can see what he is saying and how it does apply to me.  I do use feeling guilty about certain things as a way to feel like I had some control when really I had none at all.  That is a hard admission to make.  I hate feeling powerless, though I imagine no one likes it.

This guilt as a way to add a sense of control is also related to my fixer tendencies which are definitely a means to control things.  I self soothe by making sure everyone else is okay and happy.  If they felt upset, I was even more upset and so I would try to prevent things from happening that could result in distress.  Yes, I was trying to help others, but I was more trying to help me cope and manage my own fears, insecurities and inability to self soothe in healthier ways.

Can anyone else relate?

[TelHill]

This guilt as a way to add a sense of control is also related to my fixer tendencies which are definitely a means to control things.  I self soothe by making sure everyone else is okay and happy.  If they felt upset, I was even more upset and so I would try to prevent things from happening that could result in distress.  Yes, I was trying to help others, but I was more trying to help me cope and manage my own fears, insecurities and inability to self soothe in healthier ways.

Can anyone else relate?

Thanks for posting this, Harri. It's timely for me. I am struggling to get out of my fixer/savior role.  It makes sense that my self-induced guilt trips were useful to little me during mom's many bpd rages.

As an adult, the guilt has been overwhelming when a dysfunctional friend/relative messes up or asks a favor any normal adult would not ask. Helping them out & going the extra mile, when they can and should help themselves, relieves my guilt.  

I have been sitting on my hands lately...not helping so much. Knowing the origin of my guilty feelings helps me.  Tired of being St. TelHill. Thanks, again!

[GaGrl]

It makes me think of what happens with children prior to about age 7 -- that they experience events in such an egocentric way that they take all resposibility onto themselves.

Mom and Dad divorced? I did something bad.

My kitten died? I didn't feed it right.

And guilt moves in. I shoulda...

[JNChell]

Good topic, Harri. I can relate. Reading this brought a memory to the surface. At times, when I was a kid and would get into “trouble” and be punished, I can remember making apology cards for my parents with paper and crayons and laying them on their pillows. I vaguely remember feeling bad and responsible for the uproar. I don’t remember getting any response from the cards. Maybe a couple days of peace followed? I don’t know for sure, but maybe those cards were a sign of guilt. They were nowhere to be found when my Sis and I settled the estate. Maybe that’s a sign of where the true guilt resided. Interesting.

[Harri]

Hi GaGrl and TelHill and thanks for joining me.

TelHill, seeing my fixing behaviors as a means of controlling others so I could self soothe took me a while but it has helped me greatly too.  I am glad this post came at a good time.   I used to see my fixer role as me being arrogant in assuming I knew what was better for other people and not just that but that I was somehow qualified to help them.  Instead of helping them with healthy support, I was enabling them and using my role to control me, them and the situation around me.

I once mentioned to a former T that I was arrogant that way.  She snorted and said "that's not arrogance, that's control".  She did not let me get away with beating myself up but she also gave me no falsehoods about my own behaviors.  

I have been sitting on my hands lately...not helping so much. Knowing the origin of my guilty feelings helps me.  Tired of being St. TelHill. Thanks, again!

This is so hard to do... staying on our side of the street.  Heck, recognizing our side of the street vs. another's is tough.  So much conditioning and emotions to fight through right?  

GaGrl, I am glad you brought up the fact that this is a part of normal emotional development in kids.  Infants too.  The part that makes us stick here though is the conditioning of a disordered parent, whether BPD, NPD, co-dependent, mood disorder or whatever else I am missing.  On top the usual platitudes that many adults will say "take care of your mom" etc.  No!  Say "Your only job is to be a kid".  

Anyone else think this fits into why they feel guilt?  It might fit for you or it might not.  

[Harri]

Hi JNChell.  Good to see you.

Such a sweet image of you making cards with your crayons.  The rest of it though, the part on your parents is not at all sweet and makes me angry and sad.

I don’t know for sure, but maybe those cards were a sign of guilt.

I would agree.  I think what a healthy parent would do is read the card with their child and then hug them, accept the apology and reassure them they are loved and it is okay to make a mistake even if they get punished for it (I am talking about normal reasonable and age appropriate punishments here... not what we got).   As a parent, what do you do with your son?  Other parents?

Maybe that’s a sign of where the true guilt resided.

Not sure if I am reading this right here.  I do think the guilt resides with your parents and my hope is that some day you/we can all release it and put it back where it belongs.

[JNChell]

Thanks Harri.

Not sure if I am reading this right here.  I do think the guilt resides with your parents and my hope is that some day you/we can all release it and put it back where it belongs.

This is the ultimate goal. Thanks for pointing it out. It’s a weird thing to see something for what it is, and still not have a true grasp on it. Maybe it’s a matter of looking at it for a while. Moving a little closer while doing so. Gradually accepting it.

I’m fairly good with it all now. Not great, but good. It is what it is. Like you said, we have to place the guilt where it belongs. Nice to see you too.

I talk with my Son. He gets time outs. At times he really acts out when he is placed there. I do my best to let him have his fit on his own. Sometimes he really acts out and starts throwing his toys. Each time he does, I walk in his room and take what he’s thrown. He eventually calms down and says that he’s ready to talk. We do. I ask him why he was placed in time out. If he doesn’t answer, I start the process. Anyway, we talk through it and end it with a hug.

[Turkish]

Interesting topic. Gagrl is also onto something, comparing it to normal child like reactions which ties into your point about the emotion perhaps being a way to assert control. 

One definition: Feeling responsible or regretful for a perceived offense, real or imaginary. Can be part of the grief reaction.

Maybe guilt in some cases provides cover for things often out of our control, things we grieve, but are unable to accept weren't our wrongdoings.

Synonyms: culpability, guiltiness, blameworthiness, wrongdoing, wrong, wrongfulness, criminality, unlawfulness, misconduct, delinquency, sin, sinfulness, iniquity

That's a lot of nasty words, and grace is on vacation. 

[Longterm]

  I self soothe by making sure everyone else is okay and happy.  If they felt upset, I was even more upset and so I would try to prevent things from happening that could result in distress.  Yes, I was trying to help others, but I was more trying to help me cope and manage my own fears, insecurities and inability to self soothe in healthier ways.

Can anyone else relate?


 

I dont have anything to add really, just wanted to say that I can massively relate to this bit, it makes me feel sad.

LT.

[Harri]

Hi JNChell.  Sounds like you are doing well with your son.

One definition: Feeling responsible or regretful for a perceived offense, real or imaginary. Can be part of the grief reaction.

Maybe guilt in some cases provides cover for things often out of our control, things we grieve, but are unable to accept weren't our wrongdoings.
Synonyms: culpability, guiltiness, blameworthiness, wrongdoing, wrong, wrongfulness, criminality, unlawfulness, misconduct, delinquency, sin, sinfulness, iniquity

That's a lot of nasty words, and grace is on vacation.

I was missing the link with grief.  Thank you Turkish. 

Like with the example I used in the thread where Kwamina told me what I started this thread with.  Long story, but I refused to share a bedroom with my mother (she sexually abused me).  Instead, my brother gave her his room and he slept on the floor in my dads room or in the twin bed with our mom <cries>  I am not sure if she sexually abused him but I would consider this co-sleeping a 'soft' abuse (sorry, can't think of the word) and wildly inappropriate.  Parentification, covert incest...

Talking about it in T and again here has helped me let go some of the guilt.  I only realize that now as I am writing this.  Grief remains.  Grief about what I experienced, my brother and yeah, even that my mother was so damaged... and my dad did nothing and allowed it to happen.

Grief. 

Go figure.

Anyone able to dig under the guilt and find something else hiding there? 

[Harri]

Longterm, thanks for reading and joining us.  As you can see you are not alone.

If you have something you want to share, do so.  We get it.  If not, that's okay too.   

[Longterm]

 

I do feel as though some things are my fault, that I was not good enough, not worthy, I simply did not mean anything. I think I people please as a way to control my inner feeling of unworthiness. Guilt maybe comes from a place of feeling like I should not of existed and should feel so.

I am sorry you went through all that Harri 

LT.

[TelHill]

This thread is really, really eye opening!

When I saw the word guilt, I thought what's the obvious next step? Rebuke, punish, discipline, correct, etc. Make sure I don't do the bad thing again (whatever it is), but it's definitely no relief!  I punish my poor self a lot. I feel tired, on edge, unable to relax or sleep well, jumpy when the slightest thing goes wrong.  

I am so glad I made the connection here thanks to you bright people.    

Am sure everyone knows this connection, but me. However, will be doing a lot more self-care and self-soothing daily.  

[I Am Redeemed]

I think underneath my guilt is grief, as you mentioned, but if I look even further down, I find the primary emotion that I have been acquainted with all my life, since I can remember: Fear.

Fear that I never was, nor ever will be, good enough.

Fear that others have negative perceptions of me, and even worse, that they are true.

Fear that I can't make it in life, in relationships, in responsibilities, and in general.

Fear that I am damaged and am unfixable.

Fear that I somehow missed the chance to make good choices and it's too late now.

I have lived with anxiety and fear of one thing or another for over forty years. When I look at the things I feel guilty about, I find that I am really afraid that the truth about me is being exposed, and that truth (I fear) is horrible and cannot be faced.

I think that may be why my trauma response is "freeze", or "dissociative". I don't fight because I am afraid I can't win. I don't flee because I am afraid there isn't anywhere to go. Dissociation, checking out, avoiding, shutting down... the fear takes over. I freeze because I am afraid to do anything else.

[Harri]

Hi TelHill!  I am glad you joined us too.  

What I should be doing in this thread is making the distinction between toxic guilt and healthy guilt.

Toxic guilt:  unwarranted or inappropriate, the person takes responsibility for some wrong doing when there was no wrongdoing.  It is about the judgement we make about ourselves when we do these supposedly wrong things.

Healthy guilt:  warranted, based on fact and acts we have actually done.  It can serve as a moral compass of sorts, letting us know when we have acted against our own values.  It is what allows us to learn and grow.

When I saw the word guilt, I thought what's the obvious next step?

I think the first step in regards to combatting toxic guilt is to accept that we have limited control and are not responsible for how our parents feel or behave for example.

When I saw the word guilt, I thought what's the obvious next step? Rebuke, punish, discipline, correct, etc.

With healthy guilt, I do not see the purpose in any of these except maybe 'correct'.  I think a lot of us need to let go of our self-expectations that cause us to beat ourselves up for making a mistake or unintentionally hurting someone.  Healthy guilt serves a purpose here but I know I took guilt I felt even in situations where it was warranted too far and used it to further abuse and victimize myself.

Balance right?

[Harri]

Hi Redeemed, I was writing while you posted.  I am quite slow.  

Your post is interesting to me.  I have not made that connection before though I am aware of my fear keeping me stuck in old now useless roles.  I also know what it is like to have a fear response.  

I am interested in reading more from you or others on this.

Thanks for posting!  

[Longterm]

  IAR

That was a very powerful post that resonated with me. I feel like that came from a place of honesty/pain and I commend you for sharing.

LT.

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks Harri and LT  to both of you!

Harri, I think that connection came to me all at once in kind of a "things clicking together" sort of way. My thinking went like this: guilt is the first layer, shame is the next, grief is under that, and fear is the base of it all.

If I really, really pay attention when I first become aware of feelings of guilt, the next few emotions I feel, in rapid-fire succession, almost as if they are one emotion melded together, are shame, grief, and fear.

[TelHill]

Hey Harri That is the job to stop going overboard with the mea culpas and self-punishment for all guilt. 

IAR, that's a very insightful and helpful post. My coping mechanisms with the bpd parent colored all my interactions with people as a kid -based on fear as you say.  That's what brought me into adulthood.

I was the scapegoat to my bpd mom. I was a screamer, crier, complainer and smart mouth to my parents and relatives. I told them the truth and then some. No, why?, and so what? was my mantra.   I had to out-maneuver and outwit them.  I had to to keep my sanity intact.

At school, I wanted to do well because I liked learning and wanted to be financially self-supporting as an adult. Hiding out at the library was a great excuse for not being home right after school.  I wanted my miserable life as a kid to end as an adult. I was perfectly behaved to the teachers and afraid of the kids. 

IAR, there is a lot to think about with your post.  TY!