When the enabler is trying to manipulate

[Vanilla Sky]

I suspect my enabler father is trying to manipulate me.

A little context: I am NC with my uNPD/uBPD mother for 9 months, my father is her enabler, can't stand any conflict, and find ways to avoid accountability of his and my mother's behaviors in his religious faith. My brother was the scapegoat (that place is mine now) and my father believes that my brother wasn't part of the family in past lives and that is why he is "so different" from us. But I do remember the facts, my brother went through so much emotional and physical abuse from my mother, he ran away.

Last week my father called me early in the morning - it felt odd as he usually doesn't call, especially at that time. He was a little agitated in the call, it also felt odd to me. He said he was passing by my house and asked if he could come to give me a hug. So he came, my husband and I welcomed him. I asked if he was letting a passenger on my neighborhood (he is a taxi driver), that's usually when these short-notice visits happen. He didn't know what to say for a moment. It didn't take long for him to ask if I saw a video he sent about a guy that could do some complicated math in a short time. I said I haven't seen it yet and would check that later, and he insisted for me to take a look - again, it felt odd. I played the video and my husband said "we hear about people with autism that are really great in math". My father then starts to preach on us that spirits can influence someone's mind. We respectfully told him that it was not our belief, but that's ok. He insists on the conversation, my husband engages but I don't.

A few days later my husband tells me that he is now getting what my father is doing, and he won't engage in those conversations anymore. He said my father has been picking loaded subjects with him in front of me to see if my husband will get irritated. That my father may believe that he is under some mean spirit influence. What my husband was saying made sense to me but because I felt things were odd with my father. It's such silly situations and I get myself thinking that I might be exaggerating, so I replayed that visit from my father in my head and found many aspects that were unusual for my father to do.

Since my mother started giving me the silent treatment and I decided to stay NC, my father is guilt-tripping me to call my mother and "resolve things". I had many conversations with him since then, talked about my mother's abusive behavior, the effects of that on me, and that I needed some time for myself. I decided not to JADE with him anymore. Now when he is all on "she gave you life, she is crying all day" I say that "I understand this situation is uncomfortable for everyone, I understand that my mother is sad. We already had this conversation. I need my time". The guilt-tripping that always worked is not working anymore and I can see he is lost. It looks like he is using other manipulations now. I am not sure if he is picking on my husband or not, but if I see that happening again, that would be serious as it would show me how far he is willing to go to enable my mother and protect himself.

Can anyone else relate to this, seeing the enabler trying different manipulations? Do enablers go into Extinction Burst?

Thank you.

[Vanilla Sky]

Adding some more context. My mother picked a fight with my husband back in December to "test him" (her own words), my husband stood his ground politely. Not one word from him was disrespectful. My mother screamed at my husband, said they were no longer friends, slammed doors, left my house crying, and is not talking to me which I can only imagine being because I did not "defend" her against my husband.  She called my inlaws on the same day to tell them how horrible my husband is, which was absolutely inappropriate. She is not close to any of my inlaws. In my father's eyes, it's all my husband's fault for not "understanding that my mother is like a child and going along with her" and my fault for being an ungrateful daughter (?).

[zachira]

Vanilla Sky,
I am sorry to hear that your father is trying to manipulate you into participating in the toxic family dynamics. As you know, dysfunctional families will do everything they can to get the one who refuses to participate to be drawn back in. From my experience, I have found that I have to stop trying to figure out what there are doing to draw me back in. It is natural to keep asking why and try to figure out what is going on. What is important, is to not let yourself be negatively affected by what is going on, and you seem to have a handle on things to the point that nothing your parents do will set you back for any length of time. It just hurts and can sometimes may make you ask: What do I have to do to protect myself with the latest manipulations? Do you think there is anything you want to do differently than you are already doing?

[TelHill]

Hi,

My dad, the enabler, is like a weather vane - he turns where the wind goes - usually in the direction which serves him best.  Looking back, this is the way it's always been between us.

I'd be NC or LC if it weren't for them being 90+. They need some help. 

My dad has been gaslighting away and I've given into JADE a few times. (Your post is so timely for me.) What helps me is not to communicate much and to keep conversations brief and impersonal. Like BPD mom, any pressure to be a parent sets him off into anger/passive aggressive/manipulation town.

I can't change his behavior. It's hurtful for sure. The hurt is a good reminder of my family's dysfunction, and to lower expectations of getting love & support from them.

[Notwendy]

My dad, the enabler, is like a weather vane - he turns where the wind goes - usually in the direction which serves him best.  Looking back, this is the way it's always been between us.


I felt like this about my Dad too. I think it was because my BPD mother would just wear him down with her constant demands to get her way. She's relentless. I think eventually he just wanted a moment of peace.

I realized he lived with her all the time and I don't live with her. It had to be tough.

I don't think it's a good idea to give in/enable to keep the peace, but she really has a way of wearing people down when she wants to get her way.

Thinking about it this way helped me to not take his behavior as personally. I was more reasonable with him and he had better control with me. So if she had an issue with me, it was less stressful to take her side and be her rescuer. I don't know if he realized though, that a daughter still needs a father in many ways, and I wanted his attention and approval. Yet, he was only human and my mother demands a lot of attention. There was only so much he could handle.

[Jareth89]

@Notwendy, I agree with everything you wrote, but additionally from what I can see in my own brother and a few other examples these men lack the normal healthy aggression that is needed in a man which makes them more likely to be spineless and lacking in assertiveness. I also think the lack of manly aggression/assertiveness is somehow visible in their face and these controlling types of women can see this and possibly gravitate towards the more passive men. So while the men adapt their behaviour towards the controlling woman (having been beaten down), I don't believe that the necessary aggression was there to start with as a character trait, to be able to firmly reject her unreasonable behaviour.

It's not ok to take the path of least resistance. A mistaken idea that 'keeping the peace' leads to less chaos.

My brother tries to manipulate me on behalf of his wife. He carries out her errands. At the moment he is not much more than her receptacle...but hey whatever keeps the peace you know?

[Four Winds]

I agree with Jareth89 and Notwendy.  My brother seems to have no brain of his own anymore.  He is so totally dominated by his wife who controls him without her having to even put much effort into it.  He constantly monitors her moods and if she is unhappy about even the slightest thing he gets very uptight and takes it out on the kids, our elderly mother and me.  His wife is incredibly lazy and doesnt like to do any housework, so he runs around the house cleaning, tidying, doing the washing and all the shopping and cooking (after having been at work all day ), while she sits on her computer or watches TV.  She wont lift a finger to do anything resembling chores.  He covers up her lack of support by making excuses that she is soo busy that she hasn’t got time to do anything mundane like housework.  It’s pathetic to see him so diminished, he is like her guard dog constantly protecting and watchful and the minute she even raises an eyebrow at him he runs and spins even faster to do her bidding and will have no hesitation aggressively attacking on her behalf.

[Jareth89]

My brother seems to have no brain of his own anymore.  He is so totally dominated by his wife who controls him without her having to even put much effort into it.  He constantly monitors her moods and if she is unhappy about even the slightest thing he gets very uptight and takes it out on the kids, our elderly mother and me.

It’s pathetic to see him so diminished, he is like her guard dog constantly protecting and watchful and the minute she even raises an eyebrow at him he runs and spins even faster to do her bidding and will have no hesitation aggressively attacking on her behalf.

Uncanny description. In the years when my brother was dating her she was on much better behaviour than she is now but he would still be totally comfortable challenging her where necessary. Since last year, on the 5th year of marriage and after having a son (3yr old) there was an awakening. She underwent a metamorphosis into full-blown bpd/npd traits and my brother's behaviour altered at the same time (he must have been under considerable pressure to do so). Now he is exactly as you write - when she is emotionally volatile or there is something she is not happy about, he absorbs it and projects it outwards onto someone else. He could just stop the problem at the source which is to tell his wife to calm down and talk reasonably or request nicely, but I think that means going up against her 'electric fence'. Her parents interact with her in the same way as my brother - they absorb whatever she says, carry out her wishes whilst paying no attention to social etiquette. The fear must be that great.

[Vanilla Sky]

Thanks everyone for the replies  

zachira, I've been grieving the fact that my mother is seriously uNPD/uBPD and keeping my distance from her has helped to get where I am today. I am calmer and less triggered, my skin condition is improving and I'm no longer grinding my teeth at night.
But I get anxious every time I speak to my father and have to fight hard for days against the FOG he throws at me. I started to pay attention to his behaviors since my mother and I are NC. At some point, he even said "well, your mother is being nice to me now that she is angry at you", and we laughed at that, but that is far from being funny anymore. The peace between them wouldn't last of course, and now he needs me back there. Realizing that my father can actively manipulate to get me back in even after he has seen me emotionally destroyed, and having seen his lack of empathy towards my mother lately, was eye-opening. He is much more about protecting himself than is honestly worried about my mother's struggle. I am watching his actions and not only his words anymore. That makes his words affect me less now that I see he doesn't have the high moral ground in the family. I am finally seeing the family dynamics for what it is and not only my mother's disorder. I need to have better boundaries with him.

[Vanilla Sky]

Like BPD mom, any pressure to be a parent sets him off into anger/passive aggressive/manipulation town.

That is true with my father as well. I was explaining myself a lot to my father, choosing words carefully to not make him defensive. I found that it was important to let him know how I felt and what was happening to me, and now I have said everything I had to say. Continuing to explain myself would just be an attempt to make my father understand me, to make him accept and love me even when I am not the daughter that he thinks I should be. I still wanted (maybe needed?) to be my daddy's girl but it's time to let go of that fantasy.

I can't change his behavior. It's hurtful for sure. The hurt is a good reminder of my family's dysfunction, and to lower expectations of getting love & support from them.

It is a good reminder, yes.

Thanks TelHill.

[Vanilla Sky]

Hi Notwendy,

I think it was because my BPD mother would just wear him down with her constant demands to get her way. She's relentless. I think eventually he just wanted a moment of peace.
I realized he lived with her all the time and I don't live with her. It had to be tough.
I don't think it's a good idea to give in/enable to keep the peace, but she really has a way of wearing people down when she wants to get her way.

I relate to this a lot. My mother is also relentless. When she couldn't get what she wanted, she would become violent towards any of us at home. Sometimes what she wanted was to just discharge anger. She was very violent. Now that she can't be physically abusive, manipulation is all she has.  I've even seen a doctor getting annoyed after a 20 minutes appointment with her. I have empathy for my father that lives with her and is still abused by her. And at the same time, I have to protect myself from both of them.

Thinking about it this way helped me to not take his behavior as personally. I was more reasonable with him and he had better control with me. So if she had an issue with me, it was less stressful to take her side and be her rescuer. I don't know if he realized though, that a daughter still needs a father in many ways, and I wanted his attention and approval. Yet, he was only human and my mother demands a lot of attention. There was only so much he could handle.

My T told me that my father doesn't seem to have a personality disorder himself, but in the family relationship he is disordered. I am now realizing that my mother and father dynamics are so strong and won't likely change. They are both abused and being abusive towards each other.

[Harri]

Hi Vanilla Sky!

The same tools we use to help communicate with and keep us safe with our BPD parent are helpful when dealing with other family members who are still involved in the dysfunctional family dynamics.   Reading about your dad, boundaries and Don't Jade immediately sprang to mind as being helpful in this sort of situation.  I see that you already figured out that continuing to explain your position and trying to get him to hear you has not really been productive.  I know that pain well and I am so sorry you are experiencing that.  

You father has his own relationship with your mom and is definitely part of the dysfunction.  I don't think we can blame all of your fathers actions and words on your mothers pathology but I do think they compliment each other in certain ways.  I know mind did in spite of the fact that they had a miserable marriage.

Another thing that can help is to see your dads behavior as subconscious rather than deliberate acts of manipulation.  I think it is rare that manipulation is deliberate in these interactions and by deliberate, I mean thought out and planned.  People are generally responding on pure emotion and learned behaviors.  He is using dysfunctional coping skills just like your mom does and just like many of us who grew up in these sorts of families learned to do.  I am not excusing his behavior and I know it feels manipulative.  I see little value in assigning intent in most of these situations when it comes to helping us cope without being filled with *even more* resentment, hurt and anger.   Resentment, hurt, anger are all appropriate reactions I just question if the belief that these acts are deliberately manipulative are healthy for us or ultimately productive when considering how to respond and learn better coping skills. Most of the well known leading experts in the field do not believe the acts of a pwBPD are deliberate.  

at the same time, I have to protect myself from both of them.

Yes.  Again, boundaries, don't jade and self-differentiation will all help with this.

[Jareth89]

Do enablers go into Extinction Burst?

I think it's possible. In my enabler brother's case, the dynamic is that his peace is dependent on me cooperating with him because he is my SIL's advocate (ubpd/npd traits)...her frustration becomes his frustration...she deals with me indirectly through him. If she doesn't get what she wants, he has to try harder or face punishment, which obviously puts a great strain on my relationship with him. When her behaviour escalates so does his. My brother's task, designated by his wife, is to get me to submit to her after which he can have some peace. I don't want to submit to her, but neither do I want to see my brother punished.

[Jareth89]

Another thing that can help is to see your dads behavior as subconscious rather than deliberate acts of manipulation.  I think it is rare that manipulation is deliberate in these interactions and by deliberate, I mean thought out and planned.  People are generally responding on pure emotion and learned behaviors.  He is using dysfunctional coping skills just like your mom does and just like many of us who grew up in these sorts of families learned to do.  I am not excusing his behavior and I know it feels manipulative.  

Do you honestly think the enabler's behaviour is subconscious? They are fully aware of what they are doing and have made this choice because it benefits them in that they can remain in a relationship whilst not receiving too much abuse and if that means hurting others so they themselves don't get hurt (by wifey) then so be it! It's absolutely spineless, weak, selfish behaviour...totally lacking in courage. It's deliberate if the person knows what they are doing and why.

If the enabler's behaviour is so dumb and so lacking in basic awareness then you may as well call them unconscious.

[once removed]

theres a concept that i think can be difficult to grasp.

the fact that we feel manipulated, or the extent to which we do, is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the other persons thought process.

at the same time, that doesnt mean the actions arent manipulative.

my father is guilt-tripping me to call my mother and "resolve things".

this is an extremely common family dynamic when a rift occurs, whether its between siblings, or between adult children and parents.

one or more family members, in their discomfort (and often with the best of intentions) will do what they can to restore the peace, or they will gang up, or take sides, or...there are a lot of scenarios.

is what your father is doing inappropriate after you have reasonably signaled that you need your time and dont wish to discuss it further? it is. is it manipulative? sure.

is it the psychological warfare of a mastermind designed to weaken you or break you down? probably not.

your father is doing what he knows to restore the peace, and probably, on some level, to soothe his own discomfort.

" I say that "I understand this situation is uncomfortable for everyone, I understand that my mother is sad. We already had this conversation. I need my time".

this is a reasonable response. its one that you may need to repeat multiple times.

My father then starts to preach on us that spirits can influence someone's mind.

whats this about, or pertaining do? what did you think he was trying to argue about or get across?

[TelHill]

theres a concept that i think can be difficult to grasp.

the fact that we feel manipulated, or the extent to which we do, is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the other persons thought process.

at the same time, that doesnt mean the actions arent manipulative.

this is an extremely common family dynamic when a rift occurs, whether its between siblings, or between adult children and parents.

one or more family members, in their discomfort (and often with the best of intentions) will do what they can to restore the peace, or they will gang up, or take sides, or...there are a lot of scenarios.

Once Removed, I think this is the truth far more than I want to admit.  I'm not bpd but I tend to have some of the traits when I'm under pressure -- a little paranoid, quick to anger over small things, seeing myself as the wronged party a lot, with pity parties.

During rush hour on the highway today, some driver cut in front of me. I would have hit them if I didn't slam on the brakes. I was really angry. Well, maybe he was late to work or late to visiting his child in the hospital who was about to undergo a serious operation.  I forgave them and said a prayer that he had a good day. I felt calmer. The transgression became less important.

People do wicked things on purpose sometimes.  They manipulate.  Or they are having a bad day and not acting like their better selves.  There's always room to try to work things out peacefully first.

[Vanilla Sky]

Hi Harri  

Another thing that can help is to see your dads behavior as subconscious rather than deliberate acts of manipulation.  I think it is rare that manipulation is deliberate in these interactions and by deliberate, I mean thought out and planned.

When he says I should be grateful because she gave me life, that I should the bigger person, etc.. I don't see that as being a planned manipulation for example. I don't think he is consciously trying to make me feel guilty. This is his genuine opinion and he doesn't understand why I don't respond the way he thinks I should when he says those things.  What called my attention was this specific situation when he came to my house early in the morning in the middle of the week (not usual), pushed me to see a video (not usual) and was telling me how spirits can influence someone's mind. He knows I don't believe that, so I think he thought that since he couldn't communicate that directly, there was another way to do that. That way revealed to be manipulative - sending me a video so he could introduce the subject without making it clear that this is was he is thinking about my husband. I can't say for sure that this is what he was doing, but it is very possible to be the case. Manipulation was learned and practiced in our family.

I see little value in assigning intent in most of these situations when it comes to helping us cope without being filled with *even more* resentment, hurt and anger.   Resentment, hurt, anger are all appropriate reactions I just question if the belief that these acts are deliberately manipulative are healthy for us or ultimately productive when considering how to respond and learn better coping skills. Most of the well known leading experts in the field do not believe the acts of a pwBPD are deliberate.  
Yes.  Again, boundaries, don't jade and self-differentiation will all help with this.

Yes to all of this.

After giving some thought to it, I started to feel that it didn't really matter that much if he planned that move or not. It's a miserable marriage indeed and he is still in it because he has his own issues, but things get too hard when they can't triangulate, so I expect him to escalate things. Boundaries, not jadeing and self-differentiation will definitely be needed, I think I am finally learning how those things look like . I also think that stick to the facts and reality checks with my T and here at the forum will be very helpful so I don't get blinded by FOG but also don't exaggerate on some things.

[Jareth89]

How will anyone ever know with certainty whether their manipulations are deliberate or not?

[Harri]

Does it really matter?  No one is advocating standing there like a doormat and taking emotional abuse regardless of intent. 

It is about *us* learning and having boundaries, becoming self-differentiated and acting with self-respect while allowing others to be who they are while keeping us safe.  We can't control others and we can't force them to act in ways we want them to act.   

[Jareth89]

Does it really matter?  No one is advocating standing there like a doormat and taking emotional abuse regardless of intent. It is about *us* learning and having boundaries, becoming self-differentiated and acting with self-respect while allowing others to be who they are while keeping us safe.  We can't control others and we can't force them to act in ways we want them to act.   

Agree. Except that I do think there is capacity for the non-PD enabler to be worked on, if it is not left too late.

[Harri]

After giving some thought to it, I started to feel that it didn't really matter that much if he planned that move or not. It's a miserable marriage indeed and he is still in it because he has his own issues, but things get too hard when they can't triangulate, so I expect him to escalate things. Boundaries, not jadeing and self-differentiation will definitely be needed, I think I am finally learning how those things look like Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) . I also think that stick to the facts and reality checks with my T and here at the forum will be very helpful so I don't get blinded by FOG but also don't exaggerate on some things.

It is hard to see how don't JADE, boundaries, triangulation and self-differentiation look and it takes time.  That you can see this here is good.   

What you said about things getting to be too difficult when they can't triangulate is right on the money.  Triangulation is a way to bring stability to a situation, even healthy ones.  Everyone triangulates.   It is a normal and often healthy part of relationships.  It diffuses the tension and stress when there is another person involved.  When we refuse to be pulled into a *drama* triangle, we do not allow that stabilization to occur.  The stress and upset stays and often builds.  I can't remember if we have recommended the following article about Triangulation to you.  If not, read it.  It is a great and very confronting read of the role we play in the drama and conflict that occurs. 
Three Faces of Victim  If that is a repeat recommendation, I apologize.

Once removed made some really great and succinct points in his post.  Our feelings do not determine the facts of a situation.  We need to pay attention to how we feel and respond accordingly. 
 

your father is doing what he knows to restore the peace, and probably, on some level, to soothe his own discomfort.

Learned behaviors coming into play.

One thing that I used to remind myself of that helped a lot was to remember back when I was enmeshed (badly) and desperate to keep my mother happy and the lengths I would go to to make sure she stayed that way even while I was fighting her and upset at the way she treated me.  Remembering that has helped me immensely when dealing with and coming to a point of (mostly) peace with my brother and it is slowly helping me to resolve my inner conflict with my father and what he did and did not do.   It was easy for me to forget that at one point I was just like them in a lot of ways.  The details of our behaviors may have been different but the goal of keeping the peace and a high degree of self-interest was present and very similar. 

Was I being manipulative?  Not purposely.  Was I trying to keep the peace and stabilize things the only way I knew how?  yes.  Did other people feel manipulated?  I am sure they did.  We do what we know.

People do wicked things on purpose sometimes.  They manipulate.  Or they are having a bad day and not acting like their better selves.  There's always room to try to work things out peacefully first.

Yes.