I just don't understand

[Depression = 72% of members]

So I found out from my aunt this weekend that my dad is having surgery tomorrow to remove his prostate cancer, and he's been understandably pretty worried about it. We're still NC with them, a fact that has been difficult for me given the circumstances but I feel like is a necessary decision for the emotional well being of my family. Long story and lots of words on this board about that, but bottom line it's been a hard time for everyone.

Anyway, I felt like I needed to somehow reach out for support without stepping into the mess of our conflict. I started to text him, but that got into whether or not I needed to unblock him so he could respond, or keep him blocked (he has a very unique way of getting to me in a bad way).

I finally settled on a handwritten letter, that I sent via overnight mail to make sure it arrived before surgery. To sum it up it said I loved them, was concerned for his well being, and was praying for the best. I tried not to get into the mess, but did state that I could be hurt and angry but still love him and worry for him.

Anyway, I was in an out of town work meeting yesterday and got a call from my dad on my work cell (didn't block on that one). Then he called again, and again, and again. Basically 5-6 calls back to back. I sent him a text saying I was in a meeting I couldn't step out of. He asked me to call back afterwards, saying he had one question. Well my mind was everywhere at that point, and was pale with panic (they have that effect on me). I also thought maybe he had received the letter. I stepped out during lunch and called him back...

So in the first conversation with my dad in 3-4 months, his question was wanting to know what we've told our daughter about them and why she isn't seeing them. I told him we've told her nothing. So then he asked with shock "she hasn't asked about us?" I had to tell him no, she hasn't. He said that was hard to believe but he had to take my word for it.

After the call he sent me one more text... "I guess the fact she hasn't asked about us means she's already forgotten about us. Don't respond."

This is what we talked about, after 3 months of NC, after he said complete a-hole things to us (which I ignored), and right before he was about to have surgery. I did not see that coming. He keeps me on my toes, I'll give him that. And it works, too! I still somehow am having to fight feeling guilty. I should point out that my dad hasn't been to our house in over a year, but lives 2 hours away. Any time he's seen my kids in that time is because we went to him. He didn't come to my son's birthday party with the rest of my family because he had to work. Which is fine, his choice. He didn't come to my daughter's once a year dance recital because he had to work. Which is fine, his choice. In fact last time he was at my house was because my mom had a Dr appointment in town, but the appointment got canceled so he spent the time at our house making several comments about the wasted vacation time. But he had no problem taking a week of vacation time a few months ago to go stain his deck at his cabin. But my daughter not asking about him is somehow my fault.

I just don't know what to make of it. Part of me feels horrible about the whole situation. And part of me feels like a fool for wanting so bad to make sure he knows I love him.

[ProudDad12]

So I found out from my aunt this weekend that my dad is having surgery tomorrow to remove his prostate cancer, and he's been understandably pretty worried about it. We're still NC with them, a fact that has been difficult for me given the circumstances but I feel like is a necessary decision for the emotional well being of my family. Long story and lots of words on this board about that, but bottom line it's been a hard time for everyone.

Anyway, I felt like I needed to somehow reach out for support without stepping into the mess of our conflict. I started to text him, but that got into whether or not I needed to unblock him so he could respond, or keep him blocked (he has a very unique way of getting to me in a bad way).

I finally settled on a handwritten letter, that I sent via overnight mail to make sure it arrived before surgery. To sum it up it said I loved them, was concerned for his well being, and was praying for the best. I tried not to get into the mess, but did state that I could be hurt and angry but still love him and worry for him.

Anyway, I was in an out of town work meeting yesterday and got a call from my dad on my work cell (didn't block on that one). Then he called again, and again, and again. Basically 5-6 calls back to back. I sent him a text saying I was in a meeting I couldn't step out of. He asked me to call back afterwards, saying he had one question. Well my mind was everywhere at that point, and was pale with panic (they have that effect on me). I also thought maybe he had received the letter. I stepped out during lunch and called him back...

So in the first conversation with my dad in 3-4 months, his question was wanting to know what we've told our daughter about them and why she isn't seeing them. I told him we've told her nothing. So then he asked with shock "she hasn't asked about us?" I had to tell him no, she hasn't. He said that was hard to believe but he had to take my word for it.

After the call he sent me one more text... "I guess the fact she hasn't asked about us means she's already forgotten about us. Don't respond."

This is what we talked about, after 3 months of NC, after he said complete a-hole things to us (which I ignored), and right before he was about to have surgery. I did not see that coming. He keeps me on my toes, I'll give him that. And it works, too! I still somehow am having to fight feeling guilty. I should point out that my dad hasn't been to our house in over a year, but lives 2 hours away. Any time he's seen my kids in that time is because we went to him. He didn't come to my son's birthday party with the rest of my family because he had to work. Which is fine, his choice. He didn't come to my daughter's once a year dance recital because he had to work. Which is fine, his choice. In fact last time he was at my house was because my mom had a Dr appointment in town, but the appointment got canceled so he spent the time at our house making several comments about the wasted vacation time. But he had no problem taking a week of vacation time a few months ago to go stain his deck at his cabin. But my daughter not asking about him is somehow my fault.

I just don't know what to make of it. Part of me feels horrible about the whole situation. And part of me feels like a fool for wanting so bad to make sure he knows I love him.

[Turkish]

"I guess the fact she hasn't asked about us means she's already forgotten about us. Don't respond."

Love The Waif without rescuing him. 

You know he wants you to respond, yes? He feels unloved,  and unworthy of being loved,  as pwBPD do. 

It must hurt that he hadn't made more effort to visit.  You did the right thing by writing the letter.   Would say, "ball's in his court" but he's emotionally limited.  How do you think you will respond from here?  Hopefully, his surgery goes well. 

[zachira]

I agree with Turkish you took the high road by how you responded with the letter. You are smart in keeping tight boundaries, never knowing what hurtful irrational reactions you will get. It seems to come down to feeling good about taking the high road and not letting how they react affect you that much, as their bad behaviors are about them not you, and yes, it takes time and practice to be less negatively emotionally affected.

[Notwendy]

My father did something similar. I felt I had to have some boundaries with BPD mom and both were angry at me. He was seriously ill. I also reached out as much as I could to let him know I loved him. We didn't know how much time he had left.

I had tried to visit a bit. I wasn't able to be there as much as I wished I could have. It was a combination of not being able to travel - I needed to be home with the kids- and also how much of BPD mom's abuse I could tolerate- and his. He would snap at me too.

I had a wish- and that was for him to understand why I had to have boundaries, but to know I loved him. But he remained angry at me. I wished he would say some kind words to me before he died, but that didn't happen. He said hurtful ones.  My mother was also cruel to me on the day of his funeral.

Naturally, I was despondent after this. I was basically disowned. I wouldn't have cared if it was her idea, but I didn't know if it was his or not.

I didn't understand either. But I learned more about these types of relationships and family dynamics and it helped to understand more. The Karpman drama triangle helped me. It's important to not take this personally- as much as it feels personal. I learned to understand my father's role as rescuer. My mother was distressed over the boundaries and of course, that made me her Persecutor. The dynamics between them were strong.

These dynamics also helped stabilize their relationship. They had their own issues but they were more together when "bonded" against a common persecutor- my mother as victim, my father as rescuer. They didn't just do this with me, but with others- the "terrible" doctor, the "terrible" home health nurse. This was a pattern.

I had to draw on faith- faith that there is a God who knows my intention, no matter how my parents reacted to me. And also faith that it is OK to have boundaries- that I don't have to allow people to abuse me in order to be a good person. I attend an ACA group where some members have had to revise their concept of God- the one they learned from growing up in a dysfunctional home. I wanted to be a good daughter to my parents- but if their version of being a good daughter meant tolerating abuse, allowing my mother to treat my kids in a way I didn't approve- well, I could not do that, and I had to make some peace with that.

I am sorry your father is ill and hope his surgery goes well. I think what you did was great and I encourage you to continue to take the high road with this--- while keeping your boundaries. I still called my father to speak to him when I could- or the letter- like you wrote him, is perfect, if you can't call. Send him a get well card.  Behave with him as you would regardless of how he reacts.

Keep your boundaries. His reaction is true to family dynamics. You aren't going along with your role anymore. That makes the other family members uncomfortable. They will act out to get you back into your role. If this doesn't succeed, they may even cast you out. This hurts, but it is a pattern that dysfunctional families have. What you are doing is changing this pattern- for you and your own family because you don't want to act in a dysfunctional way. When you don't react to your father's angry words, and you stay calm and let him know you love him, while keeping your boundaries, you are changing this pattern for you.

Also, consider where he is emotionally. He's ill, he's scared, and he's dealing with the role reversals in the relationship with your mother. If he's the rescuer, he's now in a position to need assistance, at least until he recovers from surgery. If my father was my mother's "superman" this situation was difficult for him. He did act out. He was not in a good place emotionally. But he couldn't really get emotional support from my mother, or act out with her without consequence. Also, even though your father seems less dysfunctional than your mother, emotional regulation probably isn't a strong point for either of them.

This is tough Proud Dad. Keep the high road, keep your boundaries. Draw on your own faith in a Creator who knows your intentions. Your father loves you too, no matter how he is reacting in the moment.

[ProudDad12]

Thank you everyone for the help and support.

You know he wants you to respond, yes? He feels unloved,  and unworthy of being loved,  as pwBPD do.  

Yeah, that thought has been nagging at me. I should add that although I haven't ruled out BPD with him, he's mostly the enabler for my uBPD mom. We've suspected some major narcissistic traits, along with an unwillingness to ever apologize for anything, but I don't know how much of that is masking vulnerability. Either way, no matter how many extended family/friends/etc. are appalled at the things he says and his general tact and validate my actions to protect my family, I still struggle with guilt and feelings of responsibility.

How do you think you will respond from here?  

I ended up not responding at all. I've been down the road many times of being certain I was finally crafting the perfect response that would get through to him, that would finally make things better. But nothing ever did. So after all the responses I daydreamed (some in the vein of shot fired back, some in the vein of trying to console, etc), I finally settled on nothing. He got his shot off, and I knew my letter would be arriving later that day that said my piece (at least the non-argumentative half of it). I didn't see anything I had to say adding positive value, since it wouldn't be received as such.

I agree with Turkish you took the high road by how you responded with the letter. You are smart in keeping tight boundaries, never knowing what hurtful irrational reactions you will get. It seems to come down to feeling good about taking the high road and not letting how they react affect you that much, as their bad behaviors are about them not you, and yes, it takes time and practice to be less negatively emotionally affected.

Thanks, and yeah I think I'll be working on that for a while. I'll concede I've come a long way from 3 year ago, when a single text from him could wreck me for a day and echo in my head for weeks.

I had tried to visit a bit. I wasn't able to be there as much as I wished I could have. It was a combination of not being able to travel - I needed to be home with the kids- and also how much of BPD mom's abuse I could tolerate- and his. He would snap at me too.

I've been torn over the visit thing. I get the impression from our therapist an eventual visit from just me would be a great starting point. But the idea of stepping into the lions den of my parents and enabling siblings isn't a pleasant one. Even if everyone plays nice it would likely be full of passive aggressive digs. Not to mention a visit from me without our children would be akin to no visit at all in their eyes.

I had a wish- and that was for him to understand why I had to have boundaries, but to know I loved him. But he remained angry at me. I wished he would say some kind words to me before he died, but that didn't happen. He said hurtful ones.  My mother was also cruel to me on the day of his funeral.

I've had a fear my outcome will be similar. My siblings are in the same small town as them and completely enmeshed, so I've often wondered if I will even be welcome to my parent's eventual funerals.

I didn't understand either. But I learned more about these types of relationships and family dynamics and it helped to understand more. The Karpman drama triangle helped me. It's important to not take this personally- as much as it feels personal.

You know, I never really understood the practical value of the triangle at first. But the more I understand and experience, the more I do. In some ways it helps me to step back and look at this objectively/logically. Seeing the patterns, positions, etc, helps me to separate or alleviate the negative emotions and take it less personally.

I had to draw on faith- faith that there is a God who knows my intention, no matter how my parents reacted to me. And also faith that it is OK to have boundaries- that I don't have to allow people to abuse me in order to be a good person.

Same here, I've done a lot of praying for a lot of things during all this!

Also, even though your father seems less dysfunctional than your mother, emotional regulation probably isn't a strong point for either of them.

It's really not. Lots and lots of stories there. Many that don't have anything to do with me. Their arguments between themselves have gone to scary extremes.

This is tough Proud Dad. Keep the high road, keep your boundaries. Draw on your own faith in a Creator who knows your intentions. Your father loves you too, no matter how he is reacting in the moment.

Thank you so much. I always notice how our stories have so many similarities, and I really appreciate the insight.

[pursuingJoy]

Your relationship with your parents bears so much similarity with my husband's relationship with his uPBD mom. I've said it before - you are doing great. It takes courage and heart to do what you're doing, you're taking steps my husband isn't ready to take yet. Keep it up. Believe me when I say you're doing the right thing for you, your marriage, your family's wellness. The day will come when you'll see the benefits and how much this is worth.

[Notwendy]

I almost didn't go to my father's funeral. My husband was shocked when I said this. He knew how attached I was to my father. It didn't make sense to him.

But at the time, I didn't think he would want me there. When I visited, he would snap and rage at me. He didn't act affectionate at all. He had been with my mother constantly and  I think she was painting me black to him and over time, it changed how he saw me.

She's tried to do this to me with other family members. I loved an aunt on my father's side and my mother would make snide remarks about her to me, as if she was trying to cast some doubt about my aunt. She's also said things like this about me to others and I think she was doing this with my father.

I was able to say goodbye to him before he died. He was in the hospital, in the final moments and not responding. But once he was gone, the funeral was mainly my mother and her FOO. I was grieving and being around them was additional stress. The main reason I went was because my kids wanted to go. They loved my dad. I went for them.

Proud Dad- I hope your father recovers and isn't facing this for a long time. I wonder if in time, my father would have come around. It wasn't unusual for him to get angry at me if my mother was angry at me. My parents would go through this - if she was angry, I was the worst child in the world, then when she wasn't angry I'd be expected to forget all she said or did. But there wasn't more time for him.

I don't regret that I began to set boundaries though. I can't say I did it all perfectly. These are new behaviors and learning to interact differently takes some learning and practice and it involves our interactions with everyone. We aren't just co-dependent with our parents. It really became more about me than them, or anyone else. I did a lot of work on co-dependency. One large motivator for me was setting an example for my kids. I wanted to be better at this- as a parent too.

Dealing with my mother is still a challenge for me. Her behaviors have worked for her- why should she change? I don't want to mistreat her in any way, but I don't want to allow her to manipulate me. When I have a boundary with her, she perceives it as me being hurtful to her. I try to agree to what she wants if it is reasonable to me. But if I say no to her she perceives it as me hurting her. It's not easy, but I realize that in this situation, I have to tolerate being the "bad guy" to her, or be co-dependent. I don't regret that I choose to not be co-dependent- it's for a greater good- but it has involved a struggle between this and wanting to please my parents.

[zachira]

This personal story may be a little off topic and possibly relevant to your situation. When my brother was dying of cancer my mother with BPD abused him so badly that the social services had to get involved. My brother was terminal for many months and could die any day. My two other siblings with BPD tried to get me to not come and visit my brother anymore for some made up reason that made no sense whatsoever. I knew I wanted to support my brother, the only nice sibling I had, yet I knew he would be upset if I said anything that would upset mom, as he was terribly enmeshed with her until the day he died. I lived far away and would come once a month for a long weekend. I would sit in the living room with him for hours on end and quietly let him know that I loved him. We had some short caring conversations at different times. I felt we got closer and he came to know me for more than the horrible person that other family members often portrayed me as. You might just try being quietly present with your father as much as possible if you do decide to visit and you can continue to send cards/letters that talk about how much you care, though I would wonder if your mother would stop letting him have them. There are ways to show that you care for your father that your mother cannot undo.
As far as not being invited to your father's funeral, I would consider that to be a genuine concern. My mother was always angry about not being to able to control me. I moved abroad right after I got out of high school, and she and my father rarely heard from me. I was not notified that my father had died until the day of his funeral, something that has taken me years to understand. I have often mourned not being able to attend my father's funeral and maybe that was better for me in the end, something I will never know.  I think what is most important is you know you love your father and want him to know that while he is still alive.

[ProudDad12]

Your relationship with your parents bears so much similarity with my husband's relationship with his uPBD mom. I've said it before - you are doing great. It takes courage and heart to do what you're doing, you're taking steps my husband isn't ready to take yet. Keep it up. Believe me when I say you're doing the right thing for you, your marriage, your family's wellness. The day will come when you'll see the benefits and how much this is worth.

I really appreciate it! I'm certainly trying. I've been following your story as well (don't respond as much as I mean to), and I really hope your situation begins to improve as well.

I think she was painting me black to him and over time, it changed how he saw me.

I think that's happening on my end as well, but more from the vein of her playing the victim to its full extent, causing my dad to see me as a lost cause.

She's tried to do this to me with other family members. I loved an aunt on my father's side and my mother would make snide remarks about her to me, as if she was trying to cast some doubt about my aunt. She's also said things like this about me to others and I think she was doing this with my father.

I get the impression my mom is doing similar, but making my wife the target, not me. I'm sure our name is mud in certain circles now, but I'm at least taking solace in the fact that she isn't fooling my aunt and uncles, they've been on the receiving end of her drama too many times.

My parents would go through this - if she was angry, I was the worst child in the world, then when she wasn't angry I'd be expected to forget all she said or did. But there wasn't more time for him.

Yes! This completely. I con't remember if it was you or someone else who once said it was a "dry erase" form of blame, and it's so true. My mom can say anything she wants and acts shocked and hurt when it has lingering effects.

When I have a boundary with her, she perceives it as me being hurtful to her. I try to agree to what she wants if it is reasonable to me. But if I say no to her she perceives it as me hurting her. It's not easy, but I realize that in this situation, I have to tolerate being the "bad guy" to her, or be co-dependent. I don't regret that I choose to not be co-dependent- it's for a greater good- but it has involved a struggle between this and wanting to please my parents.

Same here. Due to her childhood, my mom has a singular goal of holding us all tight and close (too much so). So any boundary set or any hint of perceived wrong from her tears that goal away from her and the emotions go wild. At least that is the hypothesis we've come to.

zachira, I'm sorry to hear what happened with your dad and brother and how it went down, that must have been really difficult. While like you said, it may be a reality I come to see, I can't imagine not being told of a funeral until it was too late like that. I'm glad you at least got to spend some time with your dad before so he knew you loved him.

I try to take advantage of the time I have with them to do the same for both of them, but things always seem to get clouded in the midst of drama. I'm doing my best as I know how and will hope that's enough.

[ProudDad12]

So an update on my dad, health wise...

He had his surgery yesterday. My uncle happened to be there, and he heard what the doctor said directly. It sounds like it went well, and they didn't have to remove too terribly much and expect him to be back to normal in about 10 days. Sounds like good news.

Interestingly, it sounds like my mom is insisting on painting a much more dire picture, making it sound horrible and desperate. Apparently my uncle is also getting quite frustrated with the negativity. She also had a group of her friends at the hospital with her for support.

In addition to being relieved for my dad, a big takeaway here is it's really calling into question the legitimacy and severity of what I'm being told, something I've wondered from the beginning (and even questioned by other members here on a different thread). So I'm very grateful that my uncle was there and able to tell us something closer to the truth.

[Harri]

Oh that is good news about your dads surgery.  Still tough on everyone though.  How are you feeling about it all?

I'm very grateful that my uncle was there and able to tell us something closer to the truth.

Yes!   

[TelHill]

I’m happy to hear your dad has a good prognosis! It’s sad and very frustrating your mom is painting a less optimistic & untrue picture.

At least you can relax a bit more with your family for the weekend. 

[Notwendy]

I am glad this went well for your father.

My BPD mother's perspective is not always accurate. She could exaggerate, or minimize, or not tell the truth.

Unfortunately, this makes it hard to believe what she says to me. If it is something important, I try to fact check it with another family member. Not in a "triangle" way, ( I don't mention my mother or what she said) but just ask what is going on.

If your uncle is someone who can give you more accurate information, that is good.

Something like "hey how is dad?"
If uncle says " didn't they tell you? "
Say, "I just want to hear how he was when you spoke to him"  or something like that.

[TelHill]

My father did something similar. I felt I had to have some boundaries with BPD mom and both were angry at me. He was seriously ill. I also reached out as much as I could to let him know I loved him. We didn't know how much time he had left.

I had tried to visit a bit. I wasn't able to be there as much as I wished I could have. It was a combination of not being able to travel - I needed to be home with the kids- and also how much of BPD mom's abuse I could tolerate- and his. He would snap at me too.

I had a wish- and that was for him to understand why I had to have boundaries, but to know I loved him. But he remained angry at me. I wished he would say some kind words to me before he died, but that didn't happen. He said hurtful ones.  My mother was also cruel to me on the day of his funeral.

Naturally, I was despondent after this. I was basically disowned. I wouldn't have cared if it was her idea, but I didn't know if it was his or not.

I didn't understand either. But I learned more about these types of relationships and family dynamics and it helped to understand more. The Karpman drama triangle helped me. It's important to not take this personally- as much as it feels personal. I learned to understand my father's role as rescuer. My mother was distressed over the boundaries and of course, that made me her Persecutor. The dynamics between them were strong.

These dynamics also helped stabilize their relationship. They had their own issues but they were more together when "bonded" against a common persecutor- my mother as victim, my father as rescuer. They didn't just do this with me, but with others- the "terrible" doctor, the "terrible" home health nurse. This was a pattern.

I had to draw on faith- faith that there is a God who knows my intention, no matter how my parents reacted to me. And also faith that it is OK to have boundaries- that I don't have to allow people to abuse me in order to be a good person. I attend an ACA group where some members have had to revise their concept of God- the one they learned from growing up in a dysfunctional home. I wanted to be a good daughter to my parents- but if their version of being a good daughter meant tolerating abuse, allowing my mother to treat my kids in a way I didn't approve- well, I could not do that, and I had to make some peace with that.

I am sorry your father is ill and hope his surgery goes well. I think what you did was great and I encourage you to continue to take the high road with this--- while keeping your boundaries. I still called my father to speak to him when I could- or the letter- like you wrote him, is perfect, if you can't call. Send him a get well card.  Behave with him as you would regardless of how he reacts.

Keep your boundaries. His reaction is true to family dynamics. You aren't going along with your role anymore. That makes the other family members uncomfortable. They will act out to get you back into your role. If this doesn't succeed, they may even cast you out. This hurts, but it is a pattern that dysfunctional families have. What you are doing is changing this pattern- for you and your own family because you don't want to act in a dysfunctional way. When you don't react to your father's angry words, and you stay calm and let him know you love him, while keeping your boundaries, you are changing this pattern for you.

Also, consider where he is emotionally. He's ill, he's scared, and he's dealing with the role reversals in the relationship with your mother. If he's the rescuer, he's now in a position to need assistance, at least until he recovers from surgery. If my father was my mother's "superman" this situation was difficult for him. He did act out. He was not in a good place emotionally. But he couldn't really get emotional support from my mother, or act out with her without consequence. Also, even though your father seems less dysfunctional than your mother, emotional regulation probably isn't a strong point for either of them.

This is tough Proud Dad. Keep the high road, keep your boundaries. Draw on your own faith in a Creator who knows your intentions. Your father loves you too, no matter how he is reacting in the moment.

Hi notwendy, these are great insights into the dynamics of a family with a bpd mother. Again, our stories sound similar & always read something useful. It helped me make a sea change about boundaries and not taking things personally.

My dad is the least dysfunctional person  out of all my relatives  believe it or not.  I avoid my cousins as I’ve said before.

I have FB to keep up with the news from the small village my parents are from. My relatives are my “friends.” It’s jarring to read the hateful remarks they make about the usual subjects bigots kick at.  It’s nothing new to my ears though.

NW, you’ve made the tough and correct choices not to fix. You’ve not participated in drama. You’ve kept your life intact.

[Notwendy]

Thanks - I am glad my stories have helped others.

It took a while to process. Of course I took my parents' reactions and comments about me personally. It took some reading and understanding of the dynamics between them to understand it better.

I still question. As a parent, I can not imagine saying some of the things my parents said to me to any child or treating a child- and an adult child the way they did sometime. However, as I have gotten to be an adult, it's become more apparent just how mentally ill my mother is. How my father bought into her way of thinking is more of a mystery. He was competent and educated. But to have peace with my mother one has to mentally align with her thinking and at some point, he must have chosen this- at least when he was with her.

He had his career, and when he wasn't with her, he was different. But he too could not be without her for long. If we were out somewhere, she would call him constantly, but he would call her too. It looked like a difficult pair from the outside but somehow, they made a tight couple- and that became the main priority for him.

When I could no longer agree with her wishes, or the family patterns of behavior they wanted from me, this was not acceptable to either of them. It wasn't about me personally - it was about the family patterns.