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Author Topic: Do you go with the notion that the acts of pwBPD are not deliberate  (Read 254 times)
Jareth89
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« on: October 08, 2019, 12:12:16 PM »

Mod note: This post was split from the following thread as it merited its own disussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339972.0

In your experience, do you go with the notion that the acts of pwBPD are not deliberate'?
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2019, 07:15:21 PM »

Was the wife's outburst because he told her about your discussion? Does he share everything you say with her so you can't have a private relationship with him? What caused you to be split black and were you on good terms with her before this or has your relationship with her always been unnatural and strange and do you think she always saw you as an enemy?

My brother seemed so relieved after the penny dropped that this might be what was wrong, but I specifically requested that he please NOT tell his wife about the BPD/NPD issue as this would not be in her best interests and would create more problems for him.  I think that he told her, or that she extracted the details of what we talked about out of him (they “share everything”) and that this was what sparked her huge reaction.  I now assume that everything we discuss will be relayed back to her. 

My brother and I have always had a very close and very happy relationship.  We got on really well together but have been apart as I have been living overseas for many years.  His wife always made difficulties whenever I came back home for my short annual holiday.  For example she would arrange that they had to be away somewhere else for almost the whole time I would be coming back home to see him.  I had booked flights planning these dates months in advance and then suddenly the plans would be changed at the last minute.  He was always making excuses about this.  For various reasons, he (and SIL) then moved countries to come live in the same city as me and the story has gone from bad to much much worse for us.  I think that she always saw me as the enemy, (..he is not permitted to have affection or time for anyone else - only her) but she was less and less able to hide it once we were living closer and spending more time together.  There are so many times I have wished that they had not moved and instead stayed where they were. 
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2019, 03:24:29 AM »

In your experience, do you go with the notion that the acts of pwBPD are not deliberate'?

Jareth89 my instinct is that the acts of pwBPD are quite deliberate.  The machinations which they apply can be so cunning and so strategic that they truly must be deliberately thought through.  However once you become more alert to their modes of operation (which are so incredibly well hidden behind the mask) your judgement of what’s actually going on and your abilities to sidestep their acts can become more improved.  Learn to trust your instincts, but many times their acts can leave you gasping with awe and amazement at just how inhuman and heartless they can be.  But I guess that’s down to their lack of empathy which is at the root of their behaviour. 

Can you give some examples of acts which you were subjected to that you think were deliberate?

I know that you are planning to tell your twin brother about his wife’s problem.  Do you have anyone else who could do this for you without them thinking that you are behind this?  Are your parents making much progress with learning about this disorder?
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Jareth89
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2019, 09:49:34 AM »

My parents have been destructively obstinate about the idea that SIL has a PD, that brother is changing because of it and that the dynamics could be dangerous because her parents are slightly PD as well. So since last year my SIL turned against me, then she persuaded my brother to start acting the same way, then her parents started mirroring her behaviour (they defend her it's like a domino effect), then finally my parents resented me for telling the truth. My parents still don't know properly what they are dealing with, but they are coming round.

I have arranged for someone to come to the house and talk to my parents about the SIL situation so that the peace can be restored between me/parents, since we need to be a support for my brother when I confront him. Separately I have a clinical psych with whom I have gone over some of the dynamics. My brother first needs to readily acknowledge that something is wrong. I could have a chat with him myself and then pass him over to the psych (who will already know about his case)......my only concern being that he may not take the discussion with me seriously. I don't think I can force a psych on him unwittingly and it's hard to get someone else to do this who hasn't witnessed and been on the receiving end of the behaviour.

I don't know how scheming and deliberate she is, but she did spend all last year turning my brother against me when I told her a piece of good news -medical-, which might have looked like a sabotage attempt. It went on for months. She was definitely not happy that I had not been visiting her as often due to me working on literature, so maybe it was punishment for me abandoning her. But she didn't seem to like the fact that I had found my answer (it's in the literature, it's not hidden). I think she had been using my medical condition as a way to denigrate me to my brother and now that I got something positive out of it she can no longer use this as ammunition to devalue me. I don't know, it was very strange since most people would be ecstatic so her reaction stood out. Also it gives me an opportunity to move my life forward (marriage, family etc etc) and to finally get back to being me, which she might fear removes her from being centre of attention. When I talked to her mother casually about choosing the sex of a child, her mother quipped 'our priority is X' (her daughter's son) and walked away. She was spiralling emotionally at the start of last year with my brother, before I started to experience frictions with her.
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2019, 10:46:28 AM »

It will be very important indeed essential that your parents are across the PD issue and that you are all on the same page.  This can take some time as the dysfunction zones in and out depending on the circumstances.  There are occasions when things are quite smooth and seemingly normal and they might indeed question whether you are on the right track or not.

After I told my brother about the PD problem with his wife, he became more and more outraged and very bitter and resentful towards me.  We argued (in our whole lives together we had never really argued before) and he kept referring back to how I had told him that his wife had a mental health problem..he did however say during one heated conversation that he could never ever face up to or admit that she had something like this wrong with her because then everything he has worked so hard for regarding her in his life would all be for nothing.
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Jareth89
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2019, 03:43:08 PM »

........he did however say during one heated conversation that he could never ever face up to or admit that she had something like this wrong with her because then everything he has worked so hard for regarding her in his life would all be for nothing.

So he knows the truth then, just is impotent to take any action. Has he ever tried to set boundaries down with her such as telling her she can't dictate the terms of his relationship with his sister? In my brother's case I wonder if her parents know what she doing inside her relationship with my brother and want to keep them together at any cost (they cover for her).
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2019, 06:17:31 PM »

Buried deep deep down inside, he knows the truth and our mother, bless her strongly feels this too.  But he has been so emasculated and FOGGED that he has turned himself into a mouse around her.  He told me that his wife’s perception of reality is poles apart from the reality.  Her perception has now become his own reality.  This is his survival strategy.
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2019, 06:33:04 PM »

Your SIL’s parent are covering up for their own daughter.  What you are having to face up to is that their loyalties will always lie with her. She will be painting you black and will be working hard behind the scenes at reinterpreting whatever you do (even the most well intentioned good deeds) into the negative.  Your brother is living with this day in day out and he will start to agree with her perception of reality (even if only to get a moments peace).  Best advice I can give Jareth89 is to start to pull back, take action by recognising that you are under siege and work on calming, protecting and strengthening yourself.  Take extreme care to side step flare ups with her and her family, its like living in a minefield.
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2019, 07:18:23 PM »

Helpful also to try remove yourself from the triangle if at all possible.  The SIL tried to make all her issues about me, it was all my fault, I was identified as always being the problem.  This gave her and my brother something to bond over and this somehow seemed to strengthen their relationship. What it basically did was take the heat off each other as they had a third party to blame for the dysfunction.  Projection projection projection.  Once I made myself a smaller target, they then had to deal with each other more as I wasn’t such a convenient punching bag giving them supply.  My aim was that my brother would perhaps be better able to see her dysfunction more clearly.  To hope he could recognise it for what it was rather than the two of them joining forces to attack and blame me as the cause of everything that made her unhappy.
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2019, 01:06:43 AM »

In your experience, do you go with the notion that the acts of pwBPD are not deliberate'?

hi Jareth89,

i know youve given this question a lot of thought.

its a vague question that does not have a yes or no, right or wrong answer.

think about it. youre talking about millions of people.

youre talking about any number of possible actions. and what does "deliberate" really mean, in context?

are people with BPD robots, incapable of thinking anything through, with no conscious thought process? of course not, and the literature doesnt suggest anything like that.

are they also generally emotionally reactive and impulsive? they are.

bpd is not a set of skills. its a mental illness. its a lack of skills, and a set of maladaptive coping mechanisms.

if you want to deal with someone, either constructively or destructively, you have to know what makes them tick. and you have to examine actions in context.

if i say something hurtful to you, maybe im deliberately trying to hurt you. maybe you took it the wrong way. maybe i said it because i felt you hurt me. see what i mean?

i think, rather than seeking a blanket answer to whether x amount of people are doing x action "deliberately" or otherwise, its important to look at our conflict with others in context. from there, its much easier to respond, however we choose.

what do you think?
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2019, 06:11:14 AM »

I think, rather than seeking a blanket answer to whether x amount of people are doing x action "deliberately" or otherwise, its important to look at our conflict with others in context. from there, its much easier to respond, however we choose.

I agree there isn't a blanket answer. People with BPD also are individuals with their own separate motives. For my BPD mother I would answer both yes and no. She can be extremely calculating and malicious. This is deliberate. However, when she is dysregulated, she isn't in control- she's in a sort of altered state. Sometimes she doesn't even recall what she said or did at these times. Also while her actions can be cold and deliberate, she seems oblivious to the hurt she can cause- due to the fact that she's overwhelmed by her own feelings. She truly believes she's a victim, and so isn't focused on how her behavior affects the people closest to her.

As to my father, of course he knew. But his enmeshment with my mother was as strong as her BPD. I also wished for him to have some boundaries, but it was difficult for him to do. While I understand your concern for your brother, I would also caution you to consider that there is more to this relationship for him than one can see from the outside.

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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2019, 02:03:22 PM »

Hi, Jareth89. This is a question that I’ve seen several times on the boards in different aspects, so you’re not alone in your concerns. Most of the advice and guidance that I witnessed, as well as received myself, is that we have control over one thing in these situations. Ourselves. I believe that your brother has expressed his feelings and given you a definitive answer. Being a bit blunt here, it sounds like those involved are becoming more upset than anything else. We know that things don’t improve when they’re heading in the opposite direction. I understand wanting your brother back, but he’s an adult that has made an adult decision about his wife. I believe that you’ve gotten your point across about what you believe is happening to the people that you want to include in your thoughts and concerns. They know how you feel. Perhaps it’s time to leave it where it is for now and allow things to unfold naturally. People will always see what they want to see and we can’t do anything to change that. Disrupting a natural process rarely turns out well. Thoughts?
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2019, 03:13:40 PM »

As to my father, of course he knew. But his enmeshment with my mother was as strong as her BPD. I also wished for him to have some boundaries, but it was difficult for him to do. While I understand your concern for your brother, I would also caution you to consider that there is more to this relationship for him than one can see from the outside.

Sure he has his own dysfunction and weaknesses but I saw his sharp discomfort at the rapid change in her behaviour last year - his visible disgust and confusion means that he is not oblivious or necessarily condoning the dysfunction. He has adapted as a method of survival, especially given that he has a son, and likely she is emotionally blackmailing him. More than likely he is also suffering severe confusion. If her rapid change in behaviour affected me so badly, imagine how it is affecting him. I saw the suffering in his face last year as her PD blossomed. In this case, I don't see him 100% as a willing participant, I see him as feeling trapped and adapting as a coping mechanism because he is not yet ready to contemplate what his wife's behaviour means. What it will mean is this:

Ego death - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E55Z_GDVXM8

I think the main reason why men (married/children) stay in relationships like this is what FourWinds posted about her brother..........'he did however say during one heated conversation that he could never ever face up to or admit that she had something like this wrong with her because then everything he worked so hard for regarding her in his life would all be for nothing'

While my brother is not innocent, he definitely isn't the driver or perpetrator of this situation. Additionally if his wife was exhibiting these traits while they were dating he would have ditched her. Ditching her carries a big cost to him now...what price freedom?

Controlling or coercive behaviour can be overlooked as victims might be seen as colluding or consenting to the behaviour.  In some circumstances the victim may not be aware or ready to acknowledge, least of all be ready to report that they are being abused. Do not assume that compliance, dependence, denial and other responses are collusive. Rather these reactions might be better understood as ways of coping or adapting to the abuse. Other reasons why controlling or coercive behaviour may not be identified early or reported include feelings of self-blame.....  https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-intimate-or-family-relationship

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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2019, 03:51:17 PM »

Excerpt
In some circumstances the victim may not be aware or ready to acknowledge, least of all be ready to report that they are being abused.
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2019, 04:23:49 PM »

WTL i've moved on from debating whether my brother should be confronted or not - i've made my decision. I'm also aware of his role in the dynamics of the relationship which is fairly complex. Every case is individual and needs a thorough assessment before deciding what the best course of action to take is. I'm guessing that it took you over a decade to come out of your relationship. It's good you came out finally. My brother will be given the truth and then we will see after that.

My brother has not expressed his feelings or given me a definitive answer, since we haven't really talked about this yet. If you are referring to him telling me to f-off, then you misunderstood. I get along with my brother really well. When I told him he was being manipulated, he bowed his head - he knew I was right. His comment right after to 'f-off' was actually telling the truth to f-off - he couldn't handle the truth. He later apologised to me. See what an ego death (involuntary) or a 'travel into the underworld' means.....I would tell that to f-off as well. You need courage to handle that.

It's always possible for someone to succeed or have a more efficient outcome than the ones that went before them. I don't adhere to crab mentality: 'If I can't have it, neither can you'. Being an adult has nothing to do with suddenly finding yourself in a narc cult of 3.
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2019, 04:42:28 PM »

So what is your next step? How do you plan to discuss this with your brother?
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2019, 04:43:40 PM »

Hi, Jareth. You’ve made your decision and I understand that. Before we part ways I’d like to share something with you. My sister is a PhD psychologist with focuses on PD’s and children. Makes sense given our childhoods. After it was finally over between S4’s mom and myself, and after discussing it with my sis, I kind of hinted around the idea on why she didn’t clue me in. She basically said that I wouldn’t have listened and that I had to find out for myself. She was right. She was also always there when the rug was pulled out from under me, but she never encouraged or tried to persuade me to leave S4’s mom. On the Bettering and Conflicted boards here, there is a strict policy that members do not encourage others that are trying to stay in and find a way to make their relationships work, to run. Your brother wants his marriage to work. I encourage you to step back and take a look at who this is about. You say it’s about your brother. I encourage you to read on the Bettering and Conflicted boards about ways to support your brother if this is truly about him. I also encourage you to read up here and ask questions about validation, listening with empathy and communication when it comes to pwBPD. Best of luck to you.
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2019, 07:03:34 PM »

WTL if I told you it was about my brother would you believe me? I always state the truth. I'm not sure how this could be about me.

Your PhD sister was right...in your case. That was also her individual choice as well as professional. Your sister lives in another state, so i'm assuming she wasn't regularly in physical contact with you and didn't have regular contact interacting with her SIL. So she's also not in the same dynamic i'm in with brother and SIL. How many years did it take you to get out? I think you know the health consequences of being in a relationship like this...at least c-PTSD? There are even people who are now seeing cardiologists. Did your wife ever try to cut you off from your FOO (your sister?).

Please do not pretend to know my case, or who my brother is, or what his thoughts and choices are. You don't know of the interactions that I have witnessed that have informed me of his mindset. I understand the advice you are giving but you aren't in a position to tell me that I am 'going against the grain' or that my choices are incorrect and ill-advised. Each case is dependent upon the non-PD spouse's capacity to handle the information. I already talked this over with a psych. My brother is not on the 'bettering and conflicted boards'. This thread was put here to get the correct attention (from the spouse of pwPD), nothing else.

I know how to support my brother. Instead you could admire the fact that I have his back....as others have done. Encourage, not detract. I could be wrong but it feels like devil's advocate. If I can tell my brother about his wife's condition, he can start to spot and offset any harmful behaviours his son might be receiving.

pwBPD - validation, listening with empathy etc etc etc .....been there done that. For the narcissist, it is never enough? How about validation, listening with empathy to the FOO who are often badly treated by the pwBPD and their enabling appendage.

In one of your posts you mentioned 'We talk a lot about not being caretakers for disordered individuals. Then why do we have to validate them and constantly adjust how we communicate with them etc. to try to keep the peace? This sounds like care taking. Constantly having to readjust for another person.'

Read the stories on here of SIL's and parents and gain an understanding of their perspective and how absurd the pantomime looks from the audience. I received invaluable advice and insight from them.They are the injured parties and yet they are still willing to help those that hurt them.You are damn lucky your sister was there for you at the end of the sharade. Not referencing your case, but for the enabler to treat the FOO badly and carry out crazy's wishes and then expect them to still be there for you after how many years of mistreatment? Great expectations....

« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 07:09:13 PM by Jareth89 » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2019, 08:34:04 PM »

I just wanted to say as well that attitudes towards the enabler's relationship will differ depending on how close his FOO is. If it's a fairly tight knit and happy FOO with a lot of respect for the family as a unit and a good history, then the reaction to pwBPD will be the strongest, because there will be serious objections to pwBPD destroying valued family bonds - obviously. This is not the norm for when people marry into families.....you respect the family you marry into and you add to the family. You don't break apart - again this is obvious. So my family's attitude has been pretty strong. My parents acknowledge SIL's behaviour but don't want to see anything fractured and generally they are way out of their depth with this. So it's down to me and the psych.
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2019, 11:13:23 PM »

I just wanted to say as well that attitudes towards the enabler's relationship will differ depending on how close his FOO is. If it's a fairly tight knit and happy FOO with a lot of respect for the family as a unit and a good history, then the reaction to pwBPD will be the strongest, because there will be serious objections to pwBPD destroying valued family bonds - obviously.

This seems like a family truth.

Excerpt
This is not the norm for when people marry into families.....you respect the family you marry into and you add to the family. You don't break apart - again this is obvious. So my family's attitude has been pretty strong. My parents acknowledge SIL's behaviour but don't want to see anything fractured and generally they are way out of their depth with this. So it's down to me and the psych.

Attitudes (feelings) and reactions aren't necessarily the same.  It seems like you (with your psych as a back-stop) are the only one who is willing to take action, yes?  You see your brother as trapped, so it's an understandable feeling.
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2019, 11:14:09 PM »

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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2019, 05:27:35 AM »

Turkish, from what I've read it's very common for even the strongest families to be split about this. It's hard to know what to do because the decision is basically the lesser of 2 evils - there are consequences either way. It was beyond the scope of what they could understand when I told them. I might add that these kinds of circumstances can make people ill and it's not something to be taken lightly. My parents are coming round but it has taken a long time, time which I could not really afford myself. I'm dealing with a psych but as mentioned previously I have arranged for someone separately to talk to my parents. I just wanted to say that absolutely not every case is the same.....there are undeniable similarities across cases which is why the accounts of SIL's/parents are so valuable here. FourWinds offers incredible clarity/analysis on the behaviour patterns between the pwbpd/npd and enabler.....that kind of information can educate psychs. The individual character traits of the enabler determine how this information will be received. Plus, the length of time exposed to brainwashing. Same theory for how to bring someone out of a cult, which is true in his case because of her parents. WTL talks about how the family must be there for when the enabler has exhausted himself with his delusion......there is the possibility that after such a length of time there is nobody left for the enabler to run to.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 05:33:33 AM by Jareth89 » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2019, 08:51:43 AM »

Helpful also to try remove yourself from the triangle if at all possible.  The SIL tried to make all her issues about me, it was all my fault, I was identified as always being the problem.  This gave her and my brother something to bond over and this somehow seemed to strengthen their relationship. What it basically did was take the heat off each other as they had a third party to blame for the dysfunction.  Projection projection projection.  Once I made myself a smaller target, they then had to deal with each other more as I wasn’t such a convenient punching bag giving them supply.  My aim was that my brother would perhaps be better able to see her dysfunction more clearly.  To hope he could recognise it for what it was rather than the two of them joining forces to attack and blame me as the cause of everything that made her unhappy.

This is exactly what I have witnessed, but how do I stop her from finding fault with me and encouraging my brother to think the same way....and then be on the receiving end of the complaints? I already don't share my life details with either of them so there is nothing for her to feed on. Is it ever possible to have a relationship with someone who sees me like this?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 08:57:07 AM by Jareth89 » Logged
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