H gave ultimatum, what it communicates, and what I intend to do -processing

[Our abuse recovery guide]

It is okay to cry.  And yes, this is really hard stuff.    I swear managing our own reactions to changing things and setting boundaries is harder than dealing with the responses from our family sometimes.

I think taking time to get some healing under your belt and learning to manage your own distress is what is most important as that is/can affect your marriage and even you ability to be present with your baby. 
 

So wise, I keep coming back to that Harri.

Recap,
My Husband had a big reaction to the thought of me having contact with my mom again. Even though no time frame is even being discussed right now. I believe that  he saw my distress,  affect change, dissociation and anxiety about dealing with my siblings ...and all his repressed anger came out in a flood. His repressed (valid) feelings about it all. I'll call it my dysfunctional family drama mess, that he has been trying to help me carry/figure out for years.

SO he bluntly said 'I don't know what you want to do, but I never want to deal with your mom again, because it will come back on me, and she can't see her granddaughter either!

I talked to my Therapist. She helped me understand he wants to protect his castle. He wants to protect me and my baby. Anger coming from him is a common emotion that (men) especially have. He wasn't trying to invalidate what I have been doing in counseling or not be there for me. He was just feeling his feelings.

More came of the discussion. If I could have my husband magically on board with a relationship what actually happens now. I want him on board because I really do not desire a relationship with my mom that does not include my daughter and husband taking part.

So... I have my boundaries in mind. HURRAY. I've worked hard on them. A+.
My Therapist then asked if my mom was capable of respecting these boundaries consistently and long term.
I answered from my gut. No. I don't think so.

( I could state them here but feel they are personal and I would go into length about each) ...

I think my Husband wants to throw in the towel permanently to keep me and our daughter  safe. If he could tell me what to do, he would say "I don't want you to "try out" these new  boundaries, good as they are I don't think they will work." (Again, he has not said it, but my therapist and I think this is what is underneath the anger.)

And I cannot disagree. I think he is trying to prevent me from "breaking up" with mom again, in the event that she disrespects boundaries. He wants to avoid  From the incredible strain that will exist on our entire family of 3 even if i go from NC to LC.

So from my side of things. I am taking Harri's advice. I am hearing and dealing with everyone's reactions but my own. And I need time to have my reaction.

But being painfully honest right now. My life has been better without my mom in it.


Societal guilt and intense grief push me towards her.
I have not needed my mom for anything for close to 10 months. I haven't needed a phone call, a check in, a coffee date, etc. I haven't had a blow up, a rage text, a crying fit of hysteria. A financial bail out, a threat, a fear of her disapproval and FOG.  And it has been freedom like I have never felt. (Even though I am dealing with disapproving family..they are kittens next to her)
"You have a mother that you don't let see her only grandchild? Oh for shame, plays over and over in my head." (Maybe even from some members of this board will think I am horrible for not going lc)
Guilt that "everyone"  thinks i've labeled my mom as a horrible person.
Therapist said, "not horrible. unhealthy."
I am grieving. grieving.

So the last thought therapist left me with...How would I get closure?
Does this come from doing nothing different than now?
Sending a letter?

[Imatter33]

It is okay to cry.  And yes, this is really hard stuff.    I swear managing our own reactions to changing things and setting boundaries is harder than dealing with the responses from our family sometimes.

I think taking time to get some healing under your belt and learning to manage your own distress is what is most important as that is/can affect your marriage and even you ability to be present with your baby. 
 

So wise, I keep coming back to that Harri.

Recap,
My Husband had a big reaction to the thought of me having contact with my mom again. Even though no time frame is even being discussed right now. I believe that  he saw my distress,  affect change, dissociation and anxiety about dealing with my siblings ...and all his repressed anger came out in a flood. His repressed (valid) feelings about it all. I'll call it my dysfunctional family drama mess, that he has been trying to help me carry/figure out for years.

SO he bluntly said 'I don't know what you want to do, but I never want to deal with your mom again, because it will come back on me, and she can't see her granddaughter either!

I talked to my Therapist. She helped me understand he wants to protect his castle. He wants to protect me and my baby. Anger coming from him is a common emotion that (men) especially have. He wasn't trying to invalidate what I have been doing in counseling or not be there for me. He was just feeling his feelings.

More came of the discussion. If I could have my husband magically on board with a relationship what actually happens now. I want him on board because I really do not desire a relationship with my mom that does not include my daughter and husband taking part.

So... I have my boundaries in mind. HURRAY. I've worked hard on them. A+.
My Therapist then asked if my mom was capable of respecting these boundaries consistently and long term.
I answered from my gut. No. I don't think so.

( I could state them here but feel they are personal and I would go into length about each) ...

I think my Husband wants to throw in the towel permanently to keep me and our daughter  safe. If he could tell me what to do, he would say "I don't want you to "try out" these new  boundaries, good as they are I don't think they will work." (Again, he has not said it, but my therapist and I think this is what is underneath the anger.)

And I cannot disagree. I think he is trying to prevent me from "breaking up" with mom again, in the event that she disrespects boundaries. He wants to avoid  From the incredible strain that will exist on our entire family of 3 even if i go from NC to LC.

So from my side of things. I am taking Harri's advice. I am hearing and dealing with everyone's reactions but my own. And I need time to have my reaction.

But being painfully honest right now. My life has been better without my mom in it.


Societal guilt and intense grief push me towards her.
I have not needed my mom for anything for close to 10 months. I haven't needed a phone call, a check in, a coffee date, etc. I haven't had a blow up, a rage text, a crying fit of hysteria. A financial bail out, a threat, a fear of her disapproval and FOG.  And it has been freedom like I have never felt. (Even though I am dealing with disapproving family..they are kittens next to her)
"You have a mother that you don't let see her only grandchild? Oh for shame, plays over and over in my head." (Maybe even from some members of this board will think I am horrible for not going lc)
Guilt that "everyone"  thinks i've labeled my mom as a horrible person.
Therapist said, "not horrible. unhealthy."
I am grieving. grieving.

So the last thought therapist left me with...How would I get closure?
Does this come from doing nothing different than now?
Sending a letter?

[Harri]

Hi.   

From what I can tell from previous conversations about what closure means, is that it is different for everyone.  For some closure means getting some acknowledgement of the abuse we experienced with the pwBPD.  For others it is reaching a place of being able to accept our own experiences as real and valid.   For some, closure is possible with NC and others LC or even contact is required for closure.  I fell into the latter category with very controlled contact.  It is different for everyone. 

I understand where you husband is coming from in terms of wanting to protect you and your child and in not wanting to be on the receiving end of your own upset as a result of interacting with your mom.  It was a different post where you described how you respond when triggered and i get that too.  Boy do i get that. 

I say this with care and concern for you and a great deal of understanding as I have been there and I know there are several others here who can relate as well.  Being that affected by our pwBPD means we are still enmeshed on some level.   Breaking through that is what matters here.  I used contact to help me do that.  Others can manage it with NC.  Either way it requires continuing what you are doing:  therapy and working here and actively changing the way we respond to not just our parent but also how we respond to others around us.   We can help you with that and I am sure your T can as well.

So yes, that is my long rambling way of saying stay the course you are on while watching to see if certain tweaks need to be made at your end.  Are you using the time away from your mom and the resulting peace as a way to work on your own triggers? 

So... I have my boundaries in mind. HURRAY. I've worked hard on them. A+.
My Therapist then asked if my mom was capable of respecting these boundaries consistently and long term.
I answered from my gut. No. I don't think so.

  A+!
My mom did not respect some of my boundaries until about 2 years in and then I had to periodically reinforce them as she would try to push.  Some I was not flexible with at all as she would just ignore them until she died.  Those were usually my etched in stone boundaries that I built around me and how I would respond - the success of my boundaries was not contingent on her agreement.   I mention that as it may be an option for you in the future should you decide to have some contact with either your mom or siblings.  I find boundaries work best when i structure them around me rather than have them dependent on acceptance by the other person.

"You have a mother that you don't let see her only grandchild? Oh for shame, plays over and over in my head." (Maybe even from some members of this board will think I am horrible for not going lc)

How do you talk back to these thoughts when they come in your head?  BTW, I don't think you are horrible for not going LC with your mom.  You get to choose that.  We are simply here to support you as you make choices and maybe help you with offering a different perspective or even challenge you on a few things but it is all done as support and from a place of caring.

Guilt that "everyone"  thinks i've labeled my mom as a horrible person.
Therapist said, "not horrible. unhealthy."

  Sometimes I think my mom was a horrible person.  But yeah, unhealthy is a more accurate and centered way of speaking about her.  I am not always centered.  It is okay.  Anyway, I don't get that impression from you at all, not here and not in your other posts.  That is your inner critic piping in.   

I am grieving. grieving.

    I know and we are here for you.   It is all part of healing.  I know it sucks. 

Sending a letter?

That is your choice.  A lot of people will write one but not send it.  What would you say and what would your expectations be regarding a response?

 

[pursuingJoy]

Imatter, wow. You're doing some great processing with your therapist. You do a great job identifying the many layers, but if I could pick one statement that seems to recap what you're going through, it would be this:

I am grieving. grieving.

I had to let go of my NPD dad in a very similar way in 2006. I went NC, it got better with time but I still feel some pain today. I remember how hard it was to make sense of new realities (truth) after a lifetime of conditioning to believe he was the best thing since sliced bread. I know you're being patient with yourself and that's amazing because it takes time.

Trying to step into your shoes, and I'm wondering if on some level, you could understand that he wouldn't want to see your mom again, but it was harder to hear him set the ultimatum about not allowing your mom to see your daughter? Curious about your thoughts on this.

I'm impressed with the way you're striving to understand your husband beyond the words he says. Your pain causes him distress. He also does not have the emotional connection you have with your mom, so he will reach his personal limit more quickly than you will. This is your mom and you will need time to work through the emotional part of this pain. I'm sure a part of him can understand that.

For me, I've felt a strong sense of powerlessness in my position as the outsider. When I feel powerless, my emotional reactions can go a little overboard. I've learned that feeling powerless is a victim stance. I feel that others will have to give me a some power, or that I have to take it, to feel better, but that's not the case. I have the ability to dig myself out of my victim hole. Not sure if that helps, but maybe your husband is feeling a little of that too. 

So the last thought therapist left me with...How would I get closure?
Does this come from doing nothing different than now?
Sending a letter?

Have you thought any more about this?

[Imatter33]

Trying to step into your shoes, and I'm wondering if on some level, you could understand that he wouldn't want to see your mom again, but it was harder to hear him set the ultimatum about not allowing your mom to see your daughter? Curious about your thoughts on this.

PJ,
For sure hearing that stung because it almost seems like he can't make that decision without hearing out my side. Like he doesn't have the "right" to make that kind of statement and to be so final about it. Now his reaction was highly emotional at the time, and I know he can calm down to discuss it further with me, but his perspective will hold firm.  The truth that is harder to process right now is that if i didn't have a child, I feel the societal guilt would lessen and the grief. My mom told me when I was pregnant..."I'll be a good grandma I promise." I wrote it down on a scrap book and came across it the other day.
Feels like a dagger to my heart. Kill me. Dead. I didn't give much of an explanation to my mom when we went nc. And I just imagine her hateful and also heartbroken that I'm not allowing her to be a grandma.
Having my daughter here makes me want to go lc due to guilt alone.
Strangely I am feeling stronger as I write this. I am acknowledging these pitfalls in my thinking and seeing the work  I still have to do. l

I have been trying to carry the guilt of the grandma/baby dynamic for so long I haven't allowed myself to feel anything else.

(Closure can be)  reaching a place of being able to accept our own experiences as real and valid.  

My mom has caused me a lot of trauma in my life, that I am not even looking at yet. Real and Valid experiences.

Guilt is completely preventing me from the next step in healing.

Being that affected by our pwBPD means we are still enmeshed on some level.   Breaking through that is what matters here.  I used contact to help me do that.  Others can manage it with NC.  Either way it requires continuing what you are doing:  therapy and working here and actively changing the way we respond to not just our parent but also how we respond to others around us.   
Are you using the time away from your mom and the resulting peace as a way to work on your own triggers? 

Yes, I am but more intentional time needs to be spent in this area and I need to make my marriage higher priority. We spend a lot of time reacting poorly to each other.   I have many many many triggers. 


 

I find boundaries work best when i structure them around me rather than have them dependent on acceptance by the other person.

I cannot have boundaries that work if I don't respect myself. And work on undoing damage done to my self esteem.

How do you talk back to these thoughts when they come in your head? 

 I am going to work on the negative self-talk. And i am going to let myself feel my feelings about my childhood/adulthood that was miserable due to BPD. I had a rough upbringing by an unhealthy mother that made life complicated, all about her needs, and scary. She scared me for years. I am worthy of a healthy life.

I am going to write a letter at some point, (with no intention to send it when I am ready too and then see how I feel.)

 

[Harri]

Hi again!

Strangely I am feeling stronger as I write this. I am acknowledging these pitfalls in my thinking and seeing the work  I still have to do.

Good.  You really do sound like you have a handle on what needs to be addressed and that is excellent.  Talking about stuff makes it clear and, I find, takes some of the shame away especially when others can relate. 

I have been trying to carry the guilt of the grandma/baby dynamic for so long I haven't allowed myself to feel anything else.

This is a good realization.  Guilt often covers up other stuff, other, deeper emotions and sometimes can be traced to distorted thoughts.  For example, a lot of my guilt was a way for me to feel like I had control and could fix things that were not working.  Guilt is tricky because sometimes it is a good thing, it serves as a moral compass.  Other times, guilt is masking something else.  So I am wondering what role guilt may have for you?  Does that resonate at all?

Yes, I am but more intentional time needs to be spent in this area and I need to make my marriage higher priority. We spend a lot of time reacting poorly to each other.   I have many many many triggers.

It is not uncommon at all for this to be true in marriages.  A lot of times we tend to bond with others where there are interlocking wounds.  Self awareness, which you have a good handle on, needs to be followed up with intentional work and you are doing that.   

Sometimes in recovery it can feel like we have so many plates spinning in the air and have to run from one to another to keep them all going... and then someone comes along and hands you another plate to spin.     Things settle.  Priorities get established.   Work is done and sure enough, those plates are just fine and eventually we no longer have to work so hard at them.

You are doing some very good work Imatter and making progress!  I can see it as I read your posts.   

[Imatter33]

"My mom didn't mess up a relationship with her granddaughter. In a lot of ways there is a clean slate there,  but I realized she "messed up" her relationship with me long before my daughter was born. Her birth was simply the catalyst to my nc. I had gotten to a breaking point. I may not be done feeling guilty about her and the baby being apart right now, but I see that my finding BPD family and getting counseling has been much bigger than "postpartum issues."

[GaGrl]

Imatter, in my family, it also was a birth that clarified to my parents that the future needed to be different.

My mother's stepmother was uBPD/NPD. She married my widowed grandfather -- he was 31, she was 18 -- after a two-week courtship, and she took on the parenting of my mom, then 6 years old. So, only 12 years difference -- plus mentally ill. Not good.

When I was born, the "going home from hospital" day was so bad, with BPD/NPD behavior and hurt feelings, that my dad became clear that their new family could not live in close proximity to mom's parents. Six weeks later, we moved 200 miles away.

Time spent with my grandparents after that were controlled and certainly not with the frequency of time with my dad's much healthier family (not to say they didn't have the usual family quirks).

My parents never completely cut off contact, although my mom did not physically visit her stepmother after her father's death.

As the grandchild, I knew by age 7-8 that stepgrandmother was different than my other grandmother. At age 10, my dad explained that she was not my boo grandmother and that my mom had a difficult relationship with her. I remember thinking, "Oh, good! She's not really related to me!" My sister and I were always something to be shown off to friends - - there was never any real warmth of love apparent to us as grandchildren.

I hope this helps with a grandchild's perspective. By protecting your baby, you are giving the baby a healthier family. I could have lived with NC and been fine with never having exposure to my mother's family.

[Harri]

"My mom didn't mess up a relationship with her granddaughter. In a lot of ways there is a clean slate there,  but I realized she "messed up" her relationship with me long before my daughter was born. Her birth was simply the catalyst to my nc. I had gotten to a breaking point. I may not be done feeling guilty about her and the baby being apart right now, but I see that my finding BPD family and getting counseling has been much bigger than "postpartum issues."

 

Great insight here!   

[Imatter33]

Imatter, in my family, it also was a birth that clarified to my parents that the future needed to be different.

Yes, The future does need to be different. I feel proud that the last 9 mo have been very different too. First time i have said that!

By protecting your baby, you are giving the baby a healthier family. I could have lived with NC and been fine with never having exposure to my mother's family.

Although not easy, because I long for my mom to know the joy of my daughter, I'm not sure it would sustain long term and the health and well-being of my daughter comes first.
Plus there is mine too!

Thanks GaGirl. 

[Imatter33]

I wish I could bypass my grief. Ugh.
The word mom, The name Mom, they alone trigger me.
I am thinking of writing a letter right?  I envision starting it with

Mom,
 And my heart hurts just in this alone.

The BPD mom is so different then the societal images hugely present this time of year.

I know I have plenty of options on how I want to address my letter but I can't skip the grief. I have no way of knowing if what i type next is  the letter" (not likely) but why not use this tool to get this stuff out in the open?

So to my peers on this board and to the honor of myself, I will say how I truly feel inside, not suppressing my grief.

Hi Mommy,

I sure love you. In a parallel universe we are the best of friends, and you have gotten to witness me become a mom too. In all my wildest dreams I didn't know having a baby of my own would be so amazing, just like everyone with kids always says.

I love watching you be a grandma. The songs sang. The books read. Remember all my fear at the thought of having a child growing up? Well now I have done it! I know you are proud of me.

In this universe.

Hi Mommy,
I sure love you. I bet you don't know that right now.

We haven't spoken in almost 10 months. You have missed a lot. I know you struggle at being a mom and I don't hold it against you. I just can't let things go on like they have been.  Sometimes I guess I hold it against you. Life is so much happier than you ever allowed it to be. The rumination on the negative and hurt areas of your life are not mine to bear. I have tried my entire life to take your pain away. To make you happy, and to be your emotional airbag.
Never hoping I had to be utilized, but prepared to  run to your defense or soothe you especially when you thought you were unloveable, or that someone else made you feel unloveable , or  lastly distract you from your pain, by any means necessary. Even if that meant ignoring my own needs, and desires.  THe thing that causes me the most pain is that your jealousy trumps joy.
 I need to get this out...

When X and I started dating and he asked to come to that movie with us because he was SO EXCITED to be with me, you screamed at me and asked me how I could be so selfish to not think of your comfort, and that you were not prepared to "meet my bf." You then made me call him and tell him not to come, when he was 5 min away from the theatre. To this day I think this one event has caused him to be closed off to you. I couldn't see then, but I know now this is textbook behavior that unfortunately I was super accustomed with.

I wish you would have hugged me, and said "oh honey, I know how thrilled you are to have a boyfriend. It's the desire of your heart. Of course he can come see this movie with us. I'd love to meet him.

I want to raise my daughter to be her own person and to not have to aim low because I may have a crisis she needs to save me from. I   The thing that causes me so much hurt is the way that you talked about my dad growing up. I couldn't tell that what you said was unhealthy, and I spent years hating him because you said too. 

Well thats it so far.

Mom,
I am not going to send this too you. I have read too much about BPD and studied too hard to know that the communication in this letter is YOU centered and not enough I statements. I didn't even get to boundaries or what that may look like.

Mommy,
I do love you even though you may not know that right now.

[pursuingJoy]

Imatter, you're doing great. Thank you so much for sharing your letter with us.
Keep it up. I know it hurts. This is hard work and it's worth it.

pj

[Imatter33]

Thank you.

 

[Harri]

Hi.

How are you doing after writing all of that?  Reading it all I could hear the hurt and anger but mostly I could hear the love and longing in you.

Well done.   

[Imatter33]

Well im sitting here reading and rereading posts i've made.
I felt lighter writing that.
Sad.
But lighter in acknowledging of the pain.
Currently I am trying to write something that doesn't JADE. I don't get how to do that. What would a letter that provides me closure be, if it wasn't an explanation of sorts? 

And I am completely at a loss for words.

[pursuingJoy]

We caution against JADE because it inhibits communication. I'm not sure JADE matters if you're writing a letter you won't send. I think this letter needs to serve your purposes, nothing else.    This is all about you.

[Harri]

Hi.  I agree with pursuingJoy that JADE does not matter when writing letters that will not be sent.

Write to release the emotions and to take care of you.  Not JADEing can come later when and if you decide you want to send a letter.

 

[Amelia Hope]

Dear Imatter,

I read your letters above and tears poured. I feel your pain.

I have some of the same struggles with my mom. I don't have any children, but I did get married last year and that is what the turning point was for me in realizing the way things were just weren't right. I was so used to trying to make my mom happy, not disappoint her, and avoid any conflict or condemnation. It wasn't until my husband (who tries to be understanding) had to be very honest about how he feels he and I can't live our life; how he feels he has to compete with my family for my affection; how the way my mom's feelings and reactions affect me is not right - then I realized I have to do some things differently (set boundaries, change my thinking, let myself take care of me).

But it is hard. It's hard in many ways. But one thing that hurts so badly is I do love my mom, very much. And so to desperately try to change and set boundaries for me and my husband; and then hear or suspect that she thinks that means I don't love her ... it's just awful. I wish I could tell her I do love her, really and truly. But I have to change some things for the sake of my family now. I need to be healthy and I need to get to be me. That doesn't mean I don't love her though. Oh, how I wish she understood that.

So all of that to say, I see those same sentiments in your letters and I know how you feel. I know every situation is different and I'm not saying I know 100% what you are going through. But I do identify with a lot of it. So I'll tell you what I need people to remind me of: Hang in there. You can do this. You (and your family) can be ok. Don't give up 

[Imatter33]

I read your letters above and tears poured. I feel your pain. . I was so used to trying to make my mom happy, not disappoint her, and avoid any conflict or condemnation. It wasn't until my husband (who tries to be understanding) had to be very honest about how he feels he and I can't live our life; how he feels he has to compete with my family for my affection; how the way my mom's feelings and reactions affect me is not right - then I realized I have to do some things differently (set boundaries, change my thinking, let myself take care of me).

This sounds familiar. I am happy for you that your starting to do this and have his support. This stuff is so hard to navigate. I really appreciate the reply. My heart is broken. My heart is hurting, but getting better all the time. Welcome to BPD family. This board has been tremendous in making me know I am not alone!

But I have to change some things for the sake of my family now. I need to be healthy and I need to get to be me. That doesn't mean I don't love her though. Oh, how I wish she understood that.

So I'll tell you what I need people to remind me of: Hang in there. You can do this. You (and your family) can be ok. Don't give up 

Appreciate it so much!