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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: My wife has filed for divorce Part 2  (Read 1007 times)
Stillhopeful4
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« on: December 16, 2019, 06:25:44 AM »

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341629.0

Weekend update:

I still haven't seen her/spoken to her/texted her.  It was a rough weekend.  I struggled a lot.  There were a lot of pics on social media from her "work" Christmas party...she was having a grand old time.  She even had a shirt that had something you can touch on her boobs.  I was in shock because she's so self conscious about her boobs and would never even let me touch them but yet everyone at work was having a grand old time rubbing the words...ughhh I can't.

Then yesterday she saw my daughter.  W asked her how my birthday was.  D23 told her we didn't do anything and I have been really sad.  W told her she doesn't want to hear it because this is that I wanted and it's ALL MY FAULT because I have treated her like POOP for the past 10 years.  And that I abused her so badly she can't even see me because it's too much for her to handle emotionally.  I was beside myself when my D23 told me this.  I gave this woman the world, sacrificed SO much for her.  I did so many things for her and I received very little (if anything from her).  The thing is I never wanted anything from her other than love.  I just don't even know how to proceed.  Clearly this is the dialogue she's made up in her head to get through this.  I know it's said that BPD's distort the past to make it easier for them to cope.  I can only imagine what she's telling everyone else if this is "the story" she's telling my daughter.  Also, my W must be in A LOT of pain to look back on the past 10 years of our relationship and blame me for all that has happened and think that I treated her like POOP all this time.

I wanted to text her last night, but I didn't.  I feel bad for my D23 having to listen to these lies, which by the way my daughter knows are lies.

This is so hard.  Any suggestions on how I should proceed?

SH4

« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 01:44:25 PM by Harri, Reason: split thread due to length » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2019, 08:35:35 AM »

Thoughts?  Advise?
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2019, 10:11:00 AM »

Hi SH4,

Sorry for the slow response.

It's your W's truth. Often people take the situation now and extrapolate things back into eternity... you were horrible to me today... you have always been horrible to me and you will always be horrible to me in the future. It's nonsense in many respects.

It's good that your D is able to absorb this information and relay it back to you without attempting to add her own opinion to the mix, that takes great emotional strength from her. That said, there might come a point where your D may want to take herself out of being a conduit between you and your wife. I suspect that your W knows this information gets back to you and as such your daughter is like her messenger of fury passing on her hateful words back to you. Is this okay for her? What reason does your D have to speak to her (they could have a strong relationship your D might not want to give up)... and it's kinda working wouldn't you say?

Leave your W to have these thoughts, try and emotionally detach yourself from what bitterness she feels towards you.

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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2019, 12:00:36 PM »

It's your W's truth. Often people take the situation now and extrapolate things back into eternity... you were horrible to me today... you have always been horrible to me and you will always be horrible to me in the future. It's nonsense in many respects.

So how do people validate nonsense?

Is this okay for her? What reason does your D have to speak to her (they could have a strong relationship your D might not want to give up)... and it's kinda working wouldn't you say?
My D maintains a relationship with her for 2 reasons that she's told me.  1. For the kids, they love her.  2. The fact that my daughter "knows" we will get back together and she doesn't want to harm the relationship with W. 
My T suggests that my D tell W not to talk to her about me at all.  I have asked D to do this but she's like mom she just starts talking...and she knows if she does anything but grin and nod that W will take it the wrong way and shut down on her.

I just don't know how I should proceed.  Do I still try?  How can I try if she refuses to see me or talk to me?  At this point, what does trying even look like?

SH4
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2019, 03:12:05 AM »

When you say I have dismissed how W sees things or how members have told me where she might be coming from...can you explain this to me?

I offended that she stood up in front of people and told "her story" that was mostly lies.

Excerpt
I didn't share the info in a vindictive way.  I sent her a text that was very nice and reaching out in hopes that "boss" could help.

(there is no other way, by anyone, that telling someones employer that their employee has a personality disorder would be received)

W told her she doesn't want to hear it because this is that I wanted and it's ALL MY FAULT because I have treated her like POOP for the past 10 years.  And that I abused her so badly she can't even see me because it's too much for her to handle emotionally.  I was beside myself when my D23 told me this.  I gave this woman the world, sacrificed SO much for her.  I did so many things for her and I received very little (if anything from her).  The thing is I never wanted anything from her other than love. Clearly this is the dialogue she's made up in her head to get through this.

So how do people validate nonsense?

SH4, this is just within your last few posts.

if you review your posts, you will see, all along, that when your wife has a complaint about the relationship, its dismissed by you out of hand. its dismissed as projection (you say its really her not you), or self/relationship sabotaging actions (by you) are dismissed as "reactive abuse". or you say you dont really love her, but you are only clinging to hope as a result of a trauma bond.

you are indeed in a difficult position. not only has divorce been threatened, your wife has filed. statistically, the odds of coming back from this are extremely rare.

right now, you are about out of good cards to play. apologizing was a good move, but that can only go so far, especially when communication is cut off.

there are children in the mix, which is about the extent of communication right now. a blended family, lots of complicated relationships. you and your wife are both using your daughter as a go between. your wife vents to your daughter, you vent back, daughter takes your side.

how would this look if you got back together? one of your wifes primary complaints is about feeling shut outside of the family. this is protracted; how would it be resolved?

how would any of the protracted, long term conflict between the two of you be resolved?
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2019, 06:35:35 AM »


how would this look if you got back together? one of your wifes primary complaints is about feeling shut outside of the family. this is protracted; how would it be resolved?

how would any of the protracted, long term conflict between the two of you be resolved?

I'm not sure how any of this can be resolved.  I've always had hope for us, even in the worst of times.  I am hoping that with some forgiveness we can work through it.  It doesn't sound like you think that's possible?

SH4

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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 02:11:07 AM »

It doesn't sound like you think that's possible?

its a rhetorical question.

right now, there is obviously little to nothing you can do.

if there is to be any opportunity to do anything, then its of serious importance to understand how things got to where they are, if youre going to be able to solve them in the future. i would argue the same is true even if the relationship is finished; and im on your side in hoping that it isnt. but i think that in spite of the advice you have gotten here, you have almost consistently sabotaged your own chances.

do i think its possible to reconcile?

i think you need more than hope. the belief that "love will prevail" is one that members on the detaching board are working through.

i think terms like "forgiveness" and "work through it" are concepts you are seriously underestimating, throughout this process.

i think if its possible, at all, its going to take that radical mindset change ive referred to; and that could be too late. i dont want to get your hopes up.

i dont bring up your wifes perspective for the sake of bringing it up.

understanding the perspective of the person we are in conflict with is vital to resolving the conflict. over and over, you have dismissed her perspective, even arguing that its past time to understand where shes coming from, and time to stand up for yourself.

so, at this point, i would have to ask:

what is it, do you think, that you have to forgive her for? what is it, do you think, that she has to forgive you for? given the opportunity (which may or may not come), how would you go about seeking forgiveness?
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2019, 07:04:22 AM »

so, at this point, i would have to ask:

what is it, do you think, that you have to forgive her for? what is it, do you think, that she has to forgive you for? given the opportunity (which may or may not come), how would you go about seeking forgiveness?

I think I have to forgive her for going outside of our marriage and having affairs.  Also, for leaving me multiple times seeking "something new".  From her perspective she needs to forgive me for treating her like "poop" (her words) for the last 10 years.  I'm not sure how to go about seeking forgiveness.

I understand that I need to try and see things from her perspective.  However, how do you see things that aren't there.  IE...  her insisting on "I have known for a very long time that you don't love me" when I do, I always have, and I probably always will.  Hypothetically, it would be like her saying I know you shot my mother in cold blood when in fact morally that's something I could never do and I was out of the country the day it happened. (PS her mom is alive and well...just an absurd example).  So I want to understand her perspective.  I want to listen.  I have asked her, in the past, why don't you think I love you...she replies with things like "it doesn't matter" or "you should know".  It's almost like she has no reason to leave and she's making up a story.  This brings me back to 2012 when I was diagnosed with cancer and at the exact same time she started an affair with one of our members...she sat and cried to me that she wanted to leave me but she said "I can't leave you, you have cancer, there is no way I can spin this and not look like a butthole to everyone".  She actually said those words to me...the day before she went home from my birthday party with the other woman and never came home that night and still can't remember what happened because she blacked out from drinking.

The fact is, my W had it great with us.  I hope one day she realize what she had, in the meantime I'm going to just try and get through the holidays and then start to refocus on me and do things that I enjoy with some of my friends I haven't seen in years.  I will not get into ANY relationships.  I don't want anyone else in my life telling me how to raise my kids etc.  I love my wife very much and I hope that someday she will realize it and change her mind.  With that said, there is a LOT of damage that we have both created in the past 6 months and I'm not sure how either one of us can move past that.

SH4
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2019, 04:54:19 AM »

Excerpt
This brings me back to 2012

when did the affairs happen?
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2019, 12:38:47 PM »

I understand that I need to try and see things from her perspective.  However, how do you see things that aren't there.  IE...  her insisting on "I have known for a very long time that you don't love me" when I do, I always have, and I probably always will. 

I've been following along with your story Stillhopeful4 for a while and I noticed the above clip.    I wanted to offer a couple of thoughts.

First, having a relationship with someone with disordered thinking means we have to live in a very complicated dynamic where there are multiple truths, some of which contradict the other.

Yes.    Seriously.    Honestly I think having a relationship with anyone means you live a complicated dynamic where there are multiple truths.

your wife's reality is very real to her.   it's how she truly thinks and feels.  and it's very important to her.     validation is about acknowledging her reality without necessarily agreeing with it.    You've read the workshops on validation right?

Here is one of the workshops, just in case:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

is says in that workshop:  Invalidation, on the other hand, is to reject, ignore, or judge.   rejecting, ignoring or judging someone's else opinions, thoughts or feelings damages any relationship.

so why do we do it?    all of us suffer from black or white thinking,...sometimes it's called all or nothing thinking.  we all do it.   sometimes a lot,.. sometimes less.   black and white, all or nothing conversations are not productive.   they go nowhere.   neither side can communicate.   both sides become further entrenched in their opinions, which can usually be boiled down to 'I'm right, your wrong".

the way to combat black or white thinking & all or nothing conversations is to live in shades of gray.   to practice looking and thinking about things from multiple perspectives.

'I see your point,   when I think about it, it looks different to me, but I can see where you are coming from.'

'that's not how it feels to me but I can understand (or try to) how you feel'

'I hear you saying that XYZ,  to me this is more ABC'.

my two cents
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2019, 04:14:58 PM »

It's your W's truth. Often people take the situation now and extrapolate things back into eternity... you were horrible to me today... you have always been horrible to me and you will always be horrible to me in the future. It's nonsense in many respects.

So how do people validate nonsense?

If you are trying to reconcile and/or put this divorce on hold, you will need to hold her grievances in higher acclaim than "non-sense".

The first tool, in my opinion, in that armamentarium is active listening and trying to understand what is bothering her in terms that make sense to both of you.

Obviously,  being treated her like "poop" for 10 years because is a gross generalization. And if you have not been an active listener, that is what you get.

A starting place (1) might be to ask if she will meet for coffee and tell you what troubles her about the marriage and promise you are there only to listen.

(2) Go and only listen and take notes. Ask simpleness clarifying questions. Listen with empathy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy)

(3) Share those notes with us and with your daughter and ask "what is she saying to me" and let us (and her) help you break this down to something that is actionable and meaningful to you.

(4) Let us and her then help you package up what you understand using words that will tell her you get it.

Done right, this will be a very validating (that you care what she has to say), empathetic, and a constructive first step to finding solutions and change.
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2019, 07:34:27 AM »

Good morning guys,

Christmas update.  Well we had a fight Monday before Christmas...more me telling her off for something she was trying to make my kids do.  I said nasty stuff and she never replied to me...just screen shoted my texts and sent them to everyone and their uncle as "proof" of what a horrible person I am...anyway Christmas Eve I sent a text apologizing for my nastiness but that she should not have gotten involved with this issue seeing she's removed herself from our family.  I did invite her to stop by Christmas eve and even told her she could stay over to watch the little ones open their gifts in the morning with no strings attached...I was greeted by a big F U.  She also screen shoted that text and sent it to the world, including my kids telling them that I was torturing her and what a horrible person I am.  Didn't see her or DOG1 over Christmas...the kids went to visit her on Saturday (after Christmas)...they said it was very uncomfortable and she did a lot of crying.  My DD23 said when they left she had to go back inside to get the babies blanket and W was hysterical crying.

Regardless:  my Christmas with the kids was WONDERFUL.  It was so calm, no drama, no walking on eggshells, no wondering who she was in the other room flirting with.  My DS16 even said it the next day while we were out driving around...he was like mom, I'm not sure how to say this and not hurt your feelings because I know you miss her (W) but Christmas was really NICE and it was one of the nicest ones in a long time! I told him that it didn't hurt my feelings and I agreed that is was really nice.  Also, my cousin, who's like my sister/best friend..(the one from the apartment that bought a house).  We made up the day before Christmas and were able to celebrate Christmas together which was GREAT!  (Apparently W is VERY VERY mad/hurt that cousin and I made up).

This is the very shortened version of the events over the past 10 days.

I hope everyone had a nice holiday.

SH4



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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2019, 07:36:00 AM »


A starting place (1) might be to ask if she will meet for coffee and tell you what troubles her about the marriage and promise you are there only to listen.


Skip,

I would love to do this.  However, she has told DD23 that she doesn't want to see me or talk to me ever again.

SH4
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2019, 07:36:58 AM »

when did the affairs happen?

2010, 2013, 2017

Those are the ones I know of.  There could have been more.

SH4

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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2019, 07:39:38 AM »

I've been following along with your story Stillhopeful4 for a while and I noticed the above clip.    I wanted to offer a couple of thoughts.

Thank you for writing to me babyducks!

Yes I have read up on invalidation.  It's something I have a hard time doing when "I'm in it".  Some of the things she says just blows my mind and I sit there dumbfounded...like how can you think/feel that.  Even if I don't say anything the look on my face says it all.  This is definitely something I need to work on for MYSELF and all of my other relationships.  I am trying but I do struggle with it.

Thanks again,
SH4
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« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2019, 10:20:54 AM »

Soo... I just got an email from my attorney.  Stating he got a fax from opposing counsel's attorney that I have been sending her aggressive and vulgar text messages "all week" and that I KEEP contacting her employer.

So I called him. Told him I only contacted her "employer" on Nov 15th, sent him the text, and explained that her "boss" has been my friend of 20+ years and is her friend etc and I didn't contact her in a bad way...he agreed that it wasn't the best to reach out to her, but once he got the facts he said W looks like an idiot trying to frame it as I'm trying to interfere with her work...and make it sound like this just happened...when in fact it happened the day she first contacted her attorney before she even met with her...she's met with her 2 times since and never mentioned this...hmmmmm  (For the record I have had zero contact with her work or any of her work friends including her boss since that one text message)

Then when I explained what led up to the 3 texts I sent on Monday 12/21 (all at like 9 AM) and sent him the texts...he said well that's not at all what she made it it sound like... so you used the "c" word...sounds like she deserved it. 

He said she's grasping at straws and the fact that she contacted her attorney over such pettiness is making her look like a complete fool.  I sent the email to my daughter and she thinks the "festivities" on Saturday and the fact I am now talking to my cousin again prompted all of this because why would she have not told her lawyer all of this last Monday when I sent the texts?  Why would she wait until today to contact her about it?  Why...because she is pissed off I am friends with my cousin now and W was counting on using her against me.  My daughter said she's going to cut all ties, including the kids, with W because of this.

SH4
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2019, 09:19:29 AM »

Thanks for you message SH4. Not wanting to cross threads here (but I’m clearly going to) but In your recent example of a legal letter (which cost money to draft and send, and your lawyers time to give opinion)  it’s tough to know where to start In not invalidating that. On the one hand you miss your W and in some senses want to reconnect and not cause more damage, but she’s now making formal ‘allegations’ against you via her lawyer. No they are not criminal but they do cost money to process and time to deal with. I’m sure your lawyer won’t be considering validating any of those claims in his attempt to protect you, plus he has transcripts of evidence which validate what you actually said... that said, I’m sure the lawyer isn’t looking to ignore the claims either. Your W felt abused by what you said so she turned that into an allegation.

It’s fine for people to feel what they feel, but when there’s real world impacts (cost, reputation, criminal charges)  does validation really cut the mustard or is there a point to just shut it down with blatant invalidation?

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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2019, 09:39:42 AM »

It’s fine for people to feel what they feel, but when there’s real world impacts (cost, reputation, criminal charges)  does validation really cut the mustard or is there a point to just shut it down with blatant invalidation?
Exactly!
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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2019, 09:50:28 AM »

Okay, my post was moved from my thread. I was reluctant to post that here. Why? Because blatant invalidation could lead to an arms race, and your wife has form in being litigious and that = $$$$$$$ and that’s your $ as well. You and your lawyer are going to have to make choices about whether you want to stimulate that arms race with fuel, or not.

I would be wise to remember lawyers benefit from fires as they are paid to put them out. The bigger the fire the more $$$ they make. Do you have a chance of starving this fire of fuel?

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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2019, 10:13:01 AM »

I would love to do this.  However, she has told DD23 that she doesn't want to see me or talk to me ever again.

Well, wait a bit. You had a fight 8 days ago after a month (±) of no communication.   Being cool (click to insert in post)

Have you been served with the divorce?
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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2020, 06:18:55 AM »

Do you have a chance of starving this fire of fuel?

Yes, with zero communication.
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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2020, 06:19:44 AM »

Well, wait a bit. You had a fight 8 days ago after a month (±) of no communication.   Being cool (click to insert in post)

Have you been served with the divorce?

My lawyer has been.  He's sending me something this week to sign and return to him.
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2020, 06:35:24 AM »

Yes, with zero communication.

My guess is that's your lawyers suggested course of action as well.
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2020, 08:11:33 AM »

My guess is that's your lawyers suggested course of action as well.

Yes that and I'm not allowed to post anything on social media, so they can't twist it.

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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2020, 08:17:24 AM »

or any recordable text other than through him (or without 3rd party advice) might be advisable
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2020, 09:10:27 AM »

or any recordable text other than through him (or without 3rd party advice) might be advisable

Meaning my kids shouldn't have any communication with her?
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2020, 09:44:11 AM »

I don't know about that but I'm suggesting you should stay off text and whatsap as well (at the very least keep it strictly for emergencies and well considered responses) .

Your children have their own relationship with your W, that said, if your W (and you) want to put your kids in the middle of this, they need to make choices with regards to how they handle that. Do you want there to be a free flow of information from you to your W via the kids, or do you need a Chinese wall? It strikes me that they need to manage what is and isn't appropriate information flow else you may need to do that yourself.
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2020, 12:47:25 PM »

Staff only This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342118.0
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