Requested help from GF's Friend and blew up in my face.

[strugglingBF]

I made a step this week and decided to reach out to one of my GF's best friends.  Probably the person who's opinion she takes most seriously.  I reached out to her Friend and was careful to stay general.  I simply said that things have been rocky and rough between GF and I (she is already aware of this being my GF's listening ear).  I mentioned that due to my joint therapy with GF, my personal therapy with that same therapist, and my online research, I am worried about GF and could use some help with something.  I did mention in there that the topic I wanted to discuss with her was serious and very real.  I did not disclose I was talking about BPD, but I did suggest needing help.  I want to add here that this Friend has witnessed most of my GF's life.  She has to know that my GF is her own worst enemy, she has witnessed BPD episodes (although she doesn't know enough about the topic to recognize it as such), has witness multiple moments of self-destructive behavior, etc.  Her friend is a smart woman who seems to have a reasonable mindset.  She has to know there is more to my GF than just the narrative my GF likes to spin to her...having a rough go at life and not being able to find a man that isn't an a$$hole.  She has had numerous destructive relationships with men (most of which involved multiple police calls, violence, abuse, etc.).  

Well, I am so glad I did not get into details when reaching out to said Friend.  Said Friend immediately called my GF and asked if she was ok and that she was worried about her due to my texts to her about me being concerned for M’s mental health and well-being.  I asked her friend not to mention any of this to my GF, because I will be "done for", but she did...immediately.  And it blew up in my face.  My only saving grace is that she did not give my GF all the details, and I don't think she will either.  But it was enough for my GF to know I reached out to her for help with said GF.  If I would have mentioned BPD in there, who knows what kind of wrath I would have on my hands.  Luckily, her friend kept it vague enough where I was able to spin it as wanting help from her friend to get my GF into couples counseling with me.  

Details of how this went down:  My GF text me moments ago and her text read "Think long and hard about this answer.  Do you think I need psychological help?" My response, "No, I think you and I need psychological relationship help, and I want to go to therapy together".  I knew exactly at the time why she was asking me that question, her friend told her I reached out.  I said "No" because a yes response would have exploded her into an episode.  So I lied and turned it into wanting couples therapy, which is actually true and she is well aware I want that.  We had some back and forth where I called out why she was asking (Friend talked to her about my texts).  She admitted to that and told me friend didn't give her details, and won't, but was enough to know I called her Friend for help.  Eventually I got this text, "Listen closely.  I 100% do not think I have any mental issues.  I think that whatever guidance you received from our prior therapist strictly had to do with you.  You can feel I am off my rocker that is fine.  I don't think you are crazy just unwilling to accept any ownership and always looking out for yourself.  I believe in helping people not writing them off or pointing fingers.  I am not opposed to getting help yet it seems like a stupid move if you are unable to own your issues.  If you want to be a team with someone, everything has to work with both people and both have to give."  I can provide so many details about that text but I don't know where to start.  She blames everything in the relationship on me.  If I try to talk about things I am unhappy with she tells me her items need to be fixed first.  Funny she mentions me pointing fingers (probably due to my JADE-related responses), yet all she does is point hers at me.  She is right, I do look out for myself and my kids.  I can also be co-dependent and put her needs before my own, going as far as neglecting my kids many times.  That is something I am working on, and my recent actions and stands I am taking are not going along with my prior co-dependent ways.  This is probably coming across to her as "always looking out for myself".  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

You've just learned a very important lesson the hard way: Always be very careful about what information you give and to whom. I'm sorry.

While your reasons for choosing this friend may have been sound, she's been your GF's friend for many years, which means her primary loyalty is to her. I'm glad she was responsible enough to not share details with her.

PwBPD have bewildering behavior sometimes and, no, it doesn't usually make sense to a Non who thinks rationally and reasonably. There's often a lot of seeming hypocrisy in there (often projecting, avoiding blame, etc.).

[strugglingBF]

That is why I was careful not to mention BPD until I knew she would help and keep things confidential.  It amazes me that her friend will not help, but whatever.  She basically said, GF knows where to find me if she needs me.  That is the whole point...GF will not come out and tell you that she has BPD and needs help.  I guess i cannot expect her friend to know what I know about the issue.  And her friend probably gets a watered down version of everything with regards to GF's actions.  I'm sure I am portrayed as a a$$hole that doesn't give a rip, only cares about himself...

[Ozzie101]

I understand the impulse to reach out to the friend. Believe me. I've been there. But, you don't really know how much the friend knows (or thinks she knows) or how she views the situation.

That's part of why it's usually not a good idea to go to people whose primary connection is to the pwBPD. There's no telling what they've been told and what they think about things. And, again, their primary loyalty is to the pwBPD, which means they're likely to do what your GF's friend did: talk to her.

If you need support, it's better to go to a therapist or come here or go to a trusted family or friend of your own.

It sounds like your objective was to get your GF's friend to intervene and help convince your GF to get help. Bringing in a third party to try to mediate or rescue has very strong whiffs of triangulation -- something to be avoided -- and can be interpreted by the loved one as a betrayal. Whatever problems there are in your relationship are between you and your GF to work out. I know BPD makes that difficult, if not impossible. But a third party won't make it easier and, as you discovered, there's a big possibility for it to blow up in your face.

[Reggie55]

I agree with others that this was a bad idea.  You can reach out to your GF's friend to organize a surprise party -- but that's about the only good reason I can think of.

Even if your intentions were noble (trust me, I've had the same idea myself), the outcome simply can't be positive.

[strugglingBF]

Clearly I should have run that idea past the board before taking action.  I got lucky this time.  If I would have mentioned BPD to her friend, she most certainly would have passed it on to her.  That would not have been good for me.

[once removed]

She blames everything in the relationship on me.  If I try to talk about things I am unhappy with she tells me her items need to be fixed first.  Funny she mentions me pointing fingers (probably due to my JADE-related responses), yet all she does is point hers at me.  She is right, I do look out for myself and my kids.  I can also be co-dependent and put her needs before my own, going as far as neglecting my kids many times.  That is something I am working on, and my recent actions and stands I am taking are not going along with my prior co-dependent ways.  This is probably coming across to her as "always looking out for myself".  

when there is protracted relationship conflict, believe it or not, both parties tend to feel similarly.

"hey, i have issues but i own them, and im working on them, the other person isnt". in some ways you are probably both right, but the big picture is that the two of you dont sound like youre on the same page. the solution seems to be that the other person needs to fix themselves.

what are the items she lists that she wants to be fixed? in her words?

[strugglingBF]

Hi Turkish and thank you for chiming in.  As far as items I need to fix, they change daily with whatever situation we are going through. 

The one that comes up the most is selfishness.  I really have no idea where this one is coming from, but it comes up anytime she doesn't get what she wants out of me.  I have put myself in a tough financial position to help her, I have neglected time with my kids (I get them every other week) to attend both events for her and her kids, I have run numerous errands for her and her kids throughout the relationship because they are all irresponsible.  Basically, when she needs me I drop everything, even my kids, and I am there.  She doesn't see any of that.  In the moment, she isn't getting what she wants so she says I am selfish.  She is actually very selfish, doesn't help me with anything even when I ask.  This is a hard one to explain because I feel like the more I explain the more I look like I am making excuses.

She wants me to be more of an extrovert.  I am definitely not an introvert, but I am not the guy who is going to command an audience at an event, or the guy who wants to be the life of the party.  I enjoy social events and I am first an observer, then I become an extrovert when I find the people i am most likely to get along with.  She is the type of person who wants to be known as telling the dirtiest jokes, who laughs the loudest, etc.  Those are not my people.  I am past the point in life where I want to go to a social function just to get wasted.  Unfortunately, the events we attend that are part of the industry we both work in, most people show up and drink themselves silly.  There is nothing appealing about that.  The conversations stink when that happens, the drama factor usually gets ramped up.  Seriously, there is some kind of major dramatic episode every time and these people eat it up.  I am over there screaming inside, "GET ME OUT OF HERE!" I would rather sit at home, or do something with a closer group of friends.  My GF still has not grown out of the, let's go to the bar and get smashed phase.   She doesn't want to do that all the time, but when there is an event of some sort I get super anxious because my GF's demeanor changes dramatically once she gets to a certain point of drinking.  Strange thing is she has dated guys who are the life of the party and she hated it.  Most of them cheated on her.  And she can't handle when guys talk to other women (especially beautiful ones).  If I bounced around a room at an event and talked with men and women, she would not handle the women part well.  Anything that has to do with females is a nightmare for me so I honestly avoid them, and the prettier they are the more they get avoided.  Yet, I will be with my GF talking to males in our industry and she will do thinks like touch their arms repeatedly while talking.  That kind of thing bothers me because it is a form of non-verbal communication.  Holy smokes, if I ever touched a woman's arm while talking to her it would be a bad night for me.  But it is ok for her to do it. 

I could honestly go on and on about all the things I am heard that I need to change.  the selfish one comes up the most and is also the one that bothers me because I have sacrificed so much to help her with so much and it is not appreciated or recognized.  The extrovert thing only comes up when there is an event coming up and she wants to use it against me.  She has literally told me before an event, "you either talk to everyone in the room or do not come at all.  If you are quiet at all it is going to be a bad night for you."  Talk about some pressure heading into an event. 

She has a very poor sense of who she is.  She will tell me that she loves her life and the fact she doesn't drink as much with me or spend at much time at the bar, then she will go opposite if she needs to and tell me I am changing who she is and she wants to go out to the bar more.  This mindset transcends a number of other topics.  Hell, I don't even know who she is or what she wants to be because it changes situationally.  She was getting away from wanting to drink all the time and go out and party, but then she got into a field of business where it is very present.  And she has hooked up with other females in the business that all abuse alcohol every time they go out.  And these females are always inviting her out.  BINGO...they hit on two major weaknesses for my GF...(1) needing to be liked by everyone, (2) not feeling left out of anything.  With regards to (2), if my GF is invited to anything she feels like she has to go regardless of how well she knows the person.  There is an aspect to her that want to go just to know what is going on, not even because she wants to be around the people or cares about the event.  She is also terrible at saying no, so while these women are doing shot after shot and placing one in front of her every time.  Even if she doesn't want to drink more she is not strong enough to cut herself off.  Any time she goes out without me I worry all night, just about how much she is going to drink or be pressured to drink, because I know she will not say no.  Also, she is not a pleasant person when she hits a certain point of drinking.

[Ozzie101]

Poor sense of self. The deep need to be liked and accepted. The changing behavior and personality traits to suit a situation. Those are all classic BPD symptoms.

The feelings = facts phenomenon probably comes into play here. So does a healthy dose of projection.

There's a common theme through a lot of your posts: fear of her reactions and how she will behave. That's familiar to me. I've been there. I've made progress to get away from it, but it's something I still have to work on.

If she goes to a party, drinks too much and behaves badly, how does that affect you?

Also, if she makes a mistake and needs you to bail her out financially, and you said no, what would happen?

[strugglingBF]

If she goes to a party and drinks too much, I honestly don't know how it would affect me.  She seems to hate everything about me right now, so would she use that to make a poor decision with another man?  Her vehicle is insured on my auto policy, if she decides to drive drunk and hurts someone that will come back on my insurance?  I will say that she usually doesn't get out of control drunk unless I am with her.  But with the right crowd, at the right time, at a time when she seems to hate everything that comes out of my mouth? Her actions and BPD mindset scares me because I don't know what can be justified if she chooses to justify it in her head. 

If I ever refused to bail her out financially, she would probably get angry and call me selfish.  Say that this is something a BF of hers should want to do.  This is what she wants in a relationship. 

[Ozzie101]

Why is she on your auto insurance?

Is bailing someone out (financially, socially, emotionally) on a regular basis something you really want to do? Is that what you want in a relationship?

[strugglingBF]

She is on my insurance because she would pay much more on her own due to her credit score.  Plus, we used to jointly own the vehicle that is now in her name alone, so we just left it as is. 

Your second question is a tough one.  Why do you ask such tough questions?   Let me think on that one a little longer. My initial response is no to all of those, but I feel obligated when it is someone I love and care about that can't take care of themselves very well.  I guess I just answered it by thinking out loud.

[Ozzie101]

Here's something else to think about : What is the difference between helping and enabling?

If you're helping her, but she makes bad choices and then those choices can have a negative impact on you (but not really on her), which is that?

[once removed]

She wants me to be more of an extrovert.  I am definitely not an introvert, but I am not the guy who is going to command an audience at an event, or the guy who wants to be the life of the party.  I enjoy social events and I am first an observer, then I become an extrovert when I find the people i am most likely to get along with.  She is the type of person who wants to be known as telling the dirtiest jokes, who laughs the loudest, etc.  Those are not my people.

i know what you mean.

this sounds like a compatibility thing. potentially, if the relationship continues to break down, a respect thing. the two of you dont like who the other is when you go out together.

its funny, because "opposites attract" is a cliche, but theres some truth in it. one classic example is the introvert and the extrovert (i know you said youre not an introvert). the extrovert is attracted to the introverts deep thoughts. the introvert is attracted to the extroverts social nature, and it brings them out of their shell. for a while. sometimes what attracts initially can put off later on.

she thinks youre not outgoing enough. you think her idea of outgoing is childish. youre cramping each others style. and you also resent her because shes a bit too forward but would be angry if you did the same.

believe it or not, this is an all too common conflict in relationships.

the question is, is it an irreconcilable one? any ideas about how the two of you might approach getting on the same page about having fun together, going out?

[I Am Redeemed]

Your second question is a tough one.  Why do you ask such tough questions?   Let me think on that one a little longer. My initial response is no to all of those, but I feel obligated when it is someone I love and care about that can't take care of themselves very well.  I guess I just answered it by thinking out loud.

Have you read this article?
Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation, and Guilt

How much responsibility do you think you have for another person who will not take responsibility for herself?

Do you think that your choice to be a Caretaker is helping her? Is it guiding her to a place where she can be stable and take responsibility for her own life? Or is it exhausting you and causing you to make decisions out of Fear, Obligation, or Guilt?

Here's another question- if she never experiences natural consequences as the result of her choices, how likely is it that she will come to the conclusion that her behavior needs to change?

[strugglingBF]

No doubt it is a compatibility thing.  We have come close to breaking up before over this issue specifically.  I told her that I don't want to be a bar hopping partier.  I am past that phase of my life and want to focus more on family and close friends.  I don't want to be stupid and run the risk of DUI's anymore.  I have too much to lose, I have kids to set an example for, etc.  I actually told her if this was going to be a problem we can move in different directions.  At the time, she appreciated that I was more stable and not a partier.  She liked the calming effect I have had on her life.  However, not that we do not live together, and her kids are 18 and 20 and want less to do with her (as most kids do at that age), I feel like she wants to act single again.  She has told me many times lately that she doesn't want to come to my house and sit with me and my kids (12 and 14).  Funny, because when her kids were younger we spent night after night (whether I had my kids or not) at home so that we were a presence in the house during some critical years.  Now that she is out of that phase it is like she doesn't care about my kids.  She will constantly try to talk me into going out and staying out till 1:00 or 2:00 a.m. when I have my kids and they are home alone.  I am not comfortable with it.  I am ok with leaving them for a few hours to go have a meal and a couple drinks with friends, but I don't want to leave them that late.  Problem is, once we go out and she gets a few drinks in her she doesn't usually want to stop.  And she has zero care about my kids being home alone because she used to leave her 8 and 10 year old kids alone all night to go drinking and partying.  She grew up a lot when she started dating me, at least I thought.  She has told me a number of times in the past 2 weeks that she will not sit at home with my kids moving forward, and if I want to she will go out to the bar without me.  I feel like she is basically choosing partying over me.  I could be just threats as she has not done it yet.  I would have never done this to her while her kids were younger and needed more supervision.  Her kids were actually my kids ages now when I met her.  So I have a good frame of reference/comparison to how differently she is acting with regards to our kids...then versus now.

[strugglingBF]

I am redeemed,

Yes I have read that and identify with all of it very strongly.  All of your points are valid and make perfect sense.  I will say that I am extremely afraid of what her retaliation will be if I break this cycle.  I feel like she will want to inflict as much pain on me as she will be feeling.  There is probably just an adjustment period, but what damage will be done during that period.  My mind gets the best of me...how far will she take retaliation?...verbal abuse?...infidelity?...

She is very immature, especially when angry, and she will use her anger/pain to justify her actions.  I guess if I approach it all with a kind heart and reassure her that I care about her and love her the whole time maybe that would help?  I have a tendency to lose my temper when pushed and delivering a message when irritated, upset, angry probably won't go over as well.  That is something I need to work on.  My demeanor, even when there is a hurricane brewing inside of me.

[I Am Redeemed]

I understand the fear and how it can drive you to do things you are not comfortable with doing because you are worried about her behavior if you set a boundary and stick to it. However, you have to decide whether or not you want to give someone else the power to control your actions and whether or not you want to live a life that is not authentic in terms of your values.

Have you seen this workshop on examples of boundaries?

Boundaries- examples

This workshop breaks down how to implement a boundary that upholds a value of yours and what type of action to take to protect the boundary.

Here is another one on extinction bursts, the escalatory behavior that can result when a boundary is set and upheld:

Extinction Bursts

One thing to remember is that it is up to you to determine your values (not your gf's) and decide what actions you can take to remain true to those values. You cannot control how another person behaves. Living life in a state of "I must do this so she does not do xyz" is not sustainable. There are consequences to making that choice, and most of the time those consequences are to your mental and emotional health.

Sometimes people will do very hurtful things to us if we do not do what they want us to do. It is up to you to decide how you will handle that if it happens, and what it means for the relationship. However, you must remember that everyone is responsible for their own choices.

How does it make you feel to think that possibly the only thing preventing an action that is hurtful to you (i.e., verbal abuse, infidelity) is your compliance with something that doesn't sit well with your values?

[strugglingBF]

With regards to your last question, very simply...NOT GOOD.  It is like I am just trying to manage my pain, or the possibility of it in the future.  What has the capability of hurting me the least.  I am not trying to argue that is healthy, that is just my reality.  It is a cycle I need to break, and I am aware of that.  It is like one of those things where I am like, "I will make my stand next time", or "maybe her threats won't be as bad next time so it will be a better time to make my stand".  Does that make sense?  Next thing you know, you are giving in left and right just to make sure you don't get hurt because none of it sounds pleasant.  Maybe I need to get hurt to learn my lesson.

I just gave in to something I did not want to do, drive an hour away to look at cars with my GF's disrespectful daughter that has now totaled 3 cars (most recent one is a DUI) and mommy (my GF) keeps getting her a nicer car each time.  She wanted me to go, I don't agree with her buying another car for someone who doesn't appreciate it, respect her, and will most likely total this one.  Make her earn it.  She doesn't deserve the privilege of driving, let alone a better car than she had before.  Anyway, I resisted until my GF started threatening to do all type of things and withhold things that I enjoy or are important to me.  She actually said she was going to stop liking football and stop watching it with me.  That was just one thing she threw out.  Stupid me gave in and went.  There is more to not wanting to go...we should have gone early in the day but she won't make her daughter get up instead of sleeping till 1:00 p.m.  I am of the mindset that...you need me because neither of you know what you are doing when buying a car, but you want me to adjust my weekend schedule because your daughter can't get up early one morning to accommodate my schedule...the one who is doing you the favor.  I gave in yesterday, but they went to look at another car this afternoon, once again around her daughters sleep schedule, and I refused.  She made it clear she didn't appreciate it this time either, but she didn't throw out the ridiculous ultimatums this time.  Actually, she might have thrown out one.  I didn't care.  I wasn't budging today.  I had stuff to do today as well, and I wanted to hang with my kids.  I honestly give two craps about her daughter getting a car.  Her license is going to be suspended soon anyway.  I did call her out on Saturday (the day I gave in) after we got back to town and were eating together.  I told her that what she is doing is not ok and called her out on her FOG-related ultimatums when she wants me to do something.  I didn't refer to it as FOG.  I just told her that I am aware of what she is doing when she threatens me into doing something and it isn't going to fly moving forward.  She didn't take it all that well in person, but I find it interesting that she didn't go all out again today when I didn't go.  I was expecting worse. 

[Ozzie101]

It's easy to get into that way of thinking "I'll make my stand next time" and before you know it, you're so far down the road you can't even see the start anymore.

By giving in, you may be avoiding whatever unpleasantness she can throw at you, but are you really avoiding hurt? Aren't you being hurt (just in a different manner) either way?

Even if she lightened up on the threats, there's a good chance they'll be back and continue. It's always worked for her in the past. Read what Redeemed said about Extinction Bursts: they'll continue (and maybe even get worse) for some time. But if you hold to your boundaries firmly, it should improve. Consistency is key.

Something that I've done in the past: Think through things my H could or does threaten. Then I ask myself: Do I really think he would do it? If he did, what would that really do to me? How could I respond or handle it to minimize the damage?

It makes those ultimatums and threats a LOT less scary.

What are some threats she could make, things she could do, that would actually hurt you?

[once removed]

However, not that we do not live together, and her kids are 18 and 20 and want less to do with her (as most kids do at that age), I feel like she wants to act single again.

it makes sense. who wouldnt, on some level?

I feel like she is basically choosing partying over me.

and she feels youre choosing the kids over her.

this is the essence of incompatibility: the two of you want different things.

you want more stability. youre done with that lifestyle. she wants to live it up...kids leaving home will do that. its a big transition. she wants fun, adventure, spontaneity. youre not into her idea of what that means.

the question is whether the two of you can sit down and work this out, and meet in the middle. can your provide what shes after in a way that works for both of you. can she give and take in a reasonable way that doesnt demand that you leave your young children at home? fundamentally, can the two of you get that spark back, have spontaneous fun together, or do you both want and need different things? id open the conversation up in a time of calm. id do a lot of listening, primarily get her side of things, what she wants, what she thinks could work, and bring it back here for feedback. then, with that feedback, id revisit the conversation with her.

It is like I am just trying to manage my pain, or the possibility of it in the future.  What has the capability of hurting me the least.  I am not trying to argue that is healthy, that is just my reality.  It is a cycle I need to break, and I am aware of that.  It is like one of those things where I am like, "I will make my stand next time", or "maybe her threats won't be as bad next time so it will be a better time to make my stand".  Does that make sense?  Next thing you know, you are giving in left and right just to make sure you don't get hurt because none of it sounds pleasant.  Maybe I need to get hurt to learn my lesson.

its a balance.

when youre in a relationship where you are ruled by the fear that it could end, youre not necessarily acting in a healthy, independent way. and that wont help the relationship, or your mental health.

having said that, changing too much too soon can destabilize a relationship. far better for the two of you to be on the same page, actively communicating, working together (healthy interdependence), than to unilaterally change the dynamics of a relationship that is already threatened.

ideally, be the leader; lead the relationship on a healthier trajectory. but work together, not at odds.

[strugglingBF]

I actually respectfully disagree with your statement on the first excerpt.  I understand that there is more freedom again when your kids get older.  Freedom and spontaneous is understandable.  Acting single with no regard for the other person in the relationship is not good.  Get out of a relationship if you want to act that way. 

I am actually a very spontaneous, adventurous person. We click very well in that regard.  I however, have responsibilities every other week that have to temper that during those periods.  She was in the same shoes when we met, and I tempered my spontaneousness and adventure when she had her kids and I didn't have mine.  Didn't try to force her to leave her kids or abandon her motherly duties because I wanted to go have fun right now.  That would be selfish of me.  But that is what she wants me to do not that she is "free".  I also don't really want a partner that would rather stay out till 2:00 a.m. instead of leaving an event with me at midnight because I don't want to leave my kids alone that long into the night.  Maybe that is selfish of me.  Do you think I am being too conservative by not wanting to leave a 14 year old and 12 years old home alone from, let's say 8:00 p.m. till 2:00 a.m.?  I guess I don't know at what age that is considered widely acceptable.  By the way, this is by no means an every weekend thing.  My GF isn't that much of a party-er.  She does, however, have trouble reigning the fun (drinking) in once she gets going.  She is not very good as saying "when", lets put it that way.  So staying out till 2:00 a.m. is pretty much a guarantee for over-drinking which is another reason I resist it.   

[Ozzie101]

That doesn't sound conservative or selfish to me. I don't have kids of my own, but I wouldn't leave them alone that late or that long. Especially if they didn't live with me 100% of the time.

Some of the problem here may be BPD (poor emotional regulation), but some of it is compatibility. You want different things. You see things different ways and may have different values. You've said (I believe) she was fine leaving her kids alone when they were younger.

Once made a good suggestion: sitting with her at a calm time, learning what her expectations and wants/needs are, then sharing them here before responding to her. Does that sound do-able?

[strugglingBF]

I am not okay with leaving my kids that long either, just didn't know if I am in the majority or the minority there.  I have no problem leaving them for a couple hours to go have dinner and a drink with friends.  I have a problem with leaving them for long periods.  You are correct, I only have them every other week.  They are very important to me, and I have to do the same amount of fathering in half the time being divorced.  They will never take a back seat to any woman in my life.  They will sit next to a woman in my life, and I need a woman who is mature enough to understand they will HAVE TO come first sometimes.  That is just part of parenthood, and it doesn't mean my partner is less important.  I have been in situations where we are out and my kids are at home.  My intent is to make an appearance somewhere, maybe have a meal and a drink, and get back to my kids.  She has zero care in the world.  But you are correct, she would leave her kids home by themselves much younger than my kids ages, for an entire night.  She would leave after they went to sleep without even telling them sometimes.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  That is scary.  When I met her she always told me I had a positive effect on her and her kids.  She liked that I didn't push her to go party and drink when she had her kids.  She grew to enjoy staying in for a period of time.  Right up until her kids got BFs and GFs of their own and no longer want to be home.   Now she doesn't want my kids cramping her style I guess.  Not living together anymore doesn't help this.  And she avoids my house while my kids are here because she thinks they dictate all of my decisions and she is frankly being immature and petty.  I am just trying to be a good father that is present during some critical years of my kids lives.  Just as I encouraged her to do when her kids were younger.  She is always telling me I don't think of others.  I hear that almost daily.  But yet she doesn't think of me at all when she wants to go drink or party.  I have meanwhile given in to her pressures of leaving my kids alone too many times, all because I AM thinking of her and putting her wants before mine and my kids. 

If things ever remain calm for a period of time, I agree that what we both want and the compatibility needs to be discussed.  Problem right now is that I can't have even the smallest of conversations right now without her attacking my every word.   

[once removed]

I am not okay with leaving my kids that long either, just didn't know if I am in the majority or the minority there.

strugglingBF, i think you will find that most people would be in agreement with you on this; myself included.

i dont know how much bearing our personal opinion has on the conflict between you and your partner. the question is can the two of you work it out, right?

Get out of a relationship if you want to act that way.

this is certainly one option. you could decide that this is an irreconcilable difference between the two of you and exit the relationship. i would not wait for her to do it.

since youre posting on the Bettering board, i presume thats not the outcome you are seeking.

right now, you are more caught up in the minutia of the conflict than seeing the big picture, or possible resolutions. i get that. its a frustrating situation, and to have a partner who is butting heads with your kids is stressful, and hurtful. but right now youre on a collision course that will have this relationship ending sooner than later.

try to set aside how things were before, early on in the relationship. these things change. things that are attractive about partners become points of conflict later on.

try to set aside how late is too late to leave the kids. i dont think thats really the issue.

try to set aside who is right or wrong. it wont help you resolve the conflict.

there are two primary issues here.

1. your partner feels like an outsider in the relationship. on one hand, shes pulling away from and resenting your children. that is probably less personal - less about them - and more about the strains on the relationship. on the other hand, she tried to include them on new years, and feels shut down as a result.

if you want to marry your partner, its really important for her to feel blended into the family dynamic, and to feel like she has a say. for you, its important that she have a good relationship with your children before youd ever want to take such a step.

2. your partner feels that a lot of the fun and life has gone out of the relationship. she may blame your kids, or she may imply that the solution is to leave them alone, but there are a myriad of ways to reignite the spark in the relationship that doesnt involve leaving your children at home.

this one is a big one for most women. i got dumped once over it. i had an ex that would come over, want to lie in bed and make out, and then that got old to her, while id gotten pretty used to it. men (generally) like predictability. women (generally), less so. 

there are potential solutions to both of these issues. you will need to be creative...there will be some trial and error in terms of what works. maybe it means some scheduling, in terms of times where the two of you can go out and socialize, and where the two of you can do "family stuff" that involves her and the children and bonds them. maybe scheduling isnt her thing and sounds boring, and you need to be more subtle in how you go about it. you will also want to let her have more of an input, if you want to move things to the next level. listen when she talks about parenting, and parenting differences. you may disagree, but focus more on the fact that shes trying to assert her way into having some voice if the two of you were to get deeper. treat it as more about her trying to find a comfort zone than a criticism of you. listen. bring what you hear back to this board and get some feedback. then revisit it with her.

you know her best. what do you think?

[strugglingBF]

Once Removed.  This is by no means said with any disrespect, but why are you so certain of you two issues when you only hear my side of the story.  I am trying to approach everything with my GF's feelings in mind, so I like where you are coming from.   However, she invited me to her location for New Year's Eve and I invited her to mine as well.  And when I offered to make an appearance where she was at, she found a different way to make it difficult (saying either come for the whole party or don't come at all).  For someone that supposedly feels like an outsider she isn't trying very hard, or making it very easy for me, to be an insider.  That night was about her wanting to control.  It is a common theme in our relationship. 

As far a marriage goes, that is the furthest thing from my mind.  I don't even know if I want/need to get married again.  Marriage is just a piece of paper that makes breaking up more difficult.  I know, that is a terrible way to think of marriage.  I would ideally like to be married again.  However, there is no way in hell I would marry someone that has BPD and is not willing to accept and work on it.  I just am not to the point of giving up on my GF yet because I love her like crazy regardless of her hurtful actions/words.  It is really a strange position to be in.

With regards to the fun in the relationship, I agree we need that re-energized.  And no, it doesn't need to include leaving my kids at home by themselves for long periods of time.  It is hard to re-energize the excitement when we are constantly arguing.  Even with the tools, I feel like right now she is just picking at everything.  I am not even JADEing lately.  Just trying to weather this storm.  I pretty much just have to agree with everything she says to keep the peace right now.  If I even have my own opinion on anything it is not received well right now. 

[once removed]

However, she invited me to her location for New Year's Eve and I invited her to mine as well.  And when I offered to make an appearance where she was at, she found a different way to make it difficult (saying either come for the whole party or don't come at all). 

so imagine a scenario between you and your best friend.

you invite your best friend over. you really want him or her to check out your new...anything. your new guitar, your new stereo, your new television. lets go with television in this case. you were thinking you and your friend could watch a movie on your new tv.

your best friend says "why dont you come to my place instead?".

well, thats not what you were asking. you wanted to show off your new television. you wanted your friend to come over, hang out at your place. watch a movie.

so your friend says "okay, ill stop by and check out your television, then i need to go".

sort of defeats the purpose, right? might make you feel discouraged? so why bother?

in a one off situation, you might be annoyed with your friend, and disappointed, but probably not a huge deal long term.

in your relationship, you are at cross purposes, fighting a lot. tensions are heightened. things that might be small stuff are bigger stuff.

add on top of that that if you have a partner with traits of borderline personality disorder, you have an inherently difficult partner, who struggles with feelings of rejection and being an outsider, who struggles to communicate her needs. and that may be putting it lightly.

As far a marriage goes, that is the furthest thing from my mind. 

how does she feel about this? are the two of you on the same page that youre not interested in taking things to that next step?