Text from oldest - wants to stay with me fulltime

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I got a text last night from S14 asking what does it entail to stay at my house full time. It has been increasingly more stressful staying at mom's house. I'll just mention a few of things going on here: The ex is making accusations that S14 is using drugs / alcohol which is completely baseless, embarrassing him in front of friends with those baseless accusations, he's transgender and the exe's friends have approached him and told him that he needs to stop ( which is completely invalidating it's not something that you can just get over ). He states that it's chaotic at mom's and he doesn't want to get out of bed ( avoiding mom ) and says that whenever he talks to mom it turns into something about her and that she is really stressful to be around because she's just draining. I told him that we'll discuss it this Friday - he's 14 and really it's up to him where he wants to stay, I didn't disclose this last bit.

The ex broke up with my replacement the summer of 2018 he was the lightning rod for her borderline behaviours and it has since shifted over to the oldest because there is no other significant other in the house. What worries me is the other two kids that are shared custody - S12 and S8, S12 is autistic and he's split white while the oldest and the youngest are split black because they push back on mom. I feel bad to say this but I'm worried about how things are going to change at mom's if the oldest is out of the house - I'm worried that the youngest is going to become that lightning rod and he's had behavioral issues.

The school always has good things to say about S8 the problems mostly come from the daycare it could be because it's more chaotic, he can be really defensive which I get with the circumstances of growing up in two homes and trying to survive in a hostile environment. Sometimes he can be really frazzled after a weeks at mom's but usually the following day or the day after at my house he's better or I can generally talk to him about what is bugging him.

I thought that I would post this to share similar stories with members that have gone through something similar - the oldest is the lightning rod for borderline behaviours and if he is with me fulltime I worry that the youngest kid that is split black becomes takes the place of S14.

[Mutt]

I got a text last night from S14 asking what does it entail to stay at my house full time. It has been increasingly more stressful staying at mom's house. I'll just mention a few of things going on here: The ex is making accusations that S14 is using drugs / alcohol which is completely baseless, embarrassing him in front of friends with those baseless accusations, he's transgender and the exe's friends have approached him and told him that he needs to stop ( which is completely invalidating it's not something that you can just get over ). He states that it's chaotic at mom's and he doesn't want to get out of bed ( avoiding mom ) and says that whenever he talks to mom it turns into something about her and that she is really stressful to be around because she's just draining. I told him that we'll discuss it this Friday - he's 14 and really it's up to him where he wants to stay, I didn't disclose this last bit.

The ex broke up with my replacement the summer of 2018 he was the lightning rod for her borderline behaviours and it has since shifted over to the oldest because there is no other significant other in the house. What worries me is the other two kids that are shared custody - S12 and S8, S12 is autistic and he's split white while the oldest and the youngest are split black because they push back on mom. I feel bad to say this but I'm worried about how things are going to change at mom's if the oldest is out of the house - I'm worried that the youngest is going to become that lightning rod and he's had behavioral issues.

The school always has good things to say about S8 the problems mostly come from the daycare it could be because it's more chaotic, he can be really defensive which I get with the circumstances of growing up in two homes and trying to survive in a hostile environment. Sometimes he can be really frazzled after a weeks at mom's but usually the following day or the day after at my house he's better or I can generally talk to him about what is bugging him.

I thought that I would post this to share similar stories with members that have gone through something similar - the oldest is the lightning rod for borderline behaviours and if he is with me fulltime I worry that the youngest kid that is split black becomes takes the place of S14.

[kells76]

Hi Mutt, it's good to hear from you.

There's a lot similar between our stories. SD13 is almost 14 and has described herself as a boy (last June) and now genderfluid. (Note, for anyone who's curious, we do refer to SD13 as "she" and this works for her and our family situation)

She does tell us now and then about not being able to find anything at Mom's, how stressful it is there and how (some nights) she doesn't want to go back. SD11 was at a sleepover for one of our weekend nights, and SD13 was talking about how nice it was to be the only kid sometimes. She was also telling DH about how they had a no school day, and at Mom's someone (either Mom or Stepdad) said that if "everyone" finished their chores, they'd go do something fun. Well, SD13 finished all her stuff, but "nobody" else did (not sure if this is SD11 and their brother at Mom's, or if it included Mom too?). So, she did all her stuff, didn't get the fun reward, and then the biggest thing for her was that she didn't get any appreciation or acknowledgement for doing it. She told DH she feels like she gets criticized if it's not done, but not thanked if it is. And she has the sense that "if I don't do other people's work, it just won't get done". Again, not sure if this is Mom's work or siblings.

I feel bad to say this but I'm worried about how things are going to change at mom's if the oldest is out of the house - I'm worried that the youngest is going to become that lightning rod

I can relate to this. I suspect that the kids won't "switch houses" as a unit. SD11 is deep into getting attention from Mom and Stepdad right now. I know part of it is age, but I wonder if part of it is that SD13 is getting old enough to think for herself more and push back a little, so she's getting a bit of "black paint". SD11 is probably eating up the "painted more white" role because she was definitely the scapegoat for a while.

Part of me thinks it might be good for SD11 to "see what Mom is really like", I guess? But it would be so painful for her.

the oldest is the lightning rod for borderline behaviours and if he is with me fulltime I worry that the youngest kid that is split black becomes takes the place of S14.

We haven't crossed that bridge yet, but it is sounding less and less impossible. If it does happen for us, you wouldn't be alone in the kids not coming as a unit. I know Panda39's DH has 2 kids, but I think they did move as a unit?

SD11 is pretty tied to SD13 -- asking her opinion about what she should wear and do. So, if SD13 did move over here, it could prompt SD11 more than she'd naturally think, to come over as well.

Do your kids have those kinds of ties? Middle kid looking up to/idolizing older kid? That could be a factor at play.

Let's keep talking back and forth. We'll figure this out.

P.S. Also, am I remembering right that for a while your ex used your 14YO's transitioning as kind of a "weapon" against you? Like, you were the "bad dad" for wanting to take it slow and think about things, and she was the "supportive mom" protecting your kid from you? So, now, all of a sudden, Mom has these critical friends? And Mom just lets the criticism happen? Interesting...

[ForeverDad]

Who has majority time, you or the ex?  Or is it equal time?

Sometimes I'm a go for the throat guy, so to speak.  This is one of those times.  Hey, if you're going to shake the tree, just go for it, right?  Why not ask your lawyer about changing all the kids to majority time with you, and oldest of course full time.

[pursuingJoy]

Mutt, solidarity from this corner of the world.  The hardest part of parenting is watching your kids go through difficult seasons and not being able to make it go away. 

We've had every living situation under the sun and all I can say is, for all that I feared and the things that went wrong, there was unexpected good. My oldest learned who her dad really was. It broke her heart but she also learned how to maintain a boundary with him. Her little sister moved in with them (kells is onto something with the sibling worship). Oldest hated younger so I was worried about them attacking each other. Instead they built an alliance and worked together to defend themselves against their dad.

If your ex is not open to him moving in with you, I second ForeverDad's suggestion to talk to a lawyer. In our state, if the other parent contests, the child's opinion will be considered after a certain age but a judge still decides.

Thinking of you Mutt. This is so hard. Keep us posted.

[ForeverDad]

What I meant in my prior post is that if it's that bad with his mother and he wants to cut visits with her, then the court could/should agree to make changes to the younger kids' schedule too in your favor.  Why take action for one child and, in effect, assume other kids don't need their schedules adjusted too?

[Mutt]

And she has the sense that "if I don't do other people's work, it just won't get done". Again, not sure if this is Mom's work or siblings.

That’s a lot of pressure for a 13 year old and a bummer if you’re doing all of your and you don’t get the reward as promised - that must be disappointing.

Part of me thinks it might be good for SD11 to "see what Mom is really like", I guess? But it would be so painful for her.

You never know when a kid will get split. S14 does well at school considering dealing with peers that don’t understand or are scared off LGBTQ and he deals with anxiety and depression and has nothing but good things to say about me to the school social worker because he says that feels like I’m a supportive parent compared to mom. He gets honors in school he’s smart, he’s an old soul, emotionally mature for his age and he doesn’t deserve the animosity from exuBPDw.

I think that a part of the treatment that exuBPDw directs towards him is being of trying to over control the situation and us causing this rift or damage in the the r/s between those two. There were a lot of problems with his older sister ( not mine my ex had a child from a previous r/s and she’s 20 having her child now and I suspect that she has BPD traits from the stories that S14 tells me )

I think that there’s an anxiety and fear that exuBPDw is going to lose control of this r/s with S14 like she did with exSD20 and is trying to over control to feel like she’s in control. That’s how I interpret it. I said that exuBPDw won’t get help for herself because of me and maybe at one point I expected it if wanted it because of my ego but if she does it’s going to have to be because of the kids.

I know that underneath that I don’t give her credit on these boards because she does care for the kids. I am lucky in that sense compared to others and I am grateful. What I mean is that she wants a text or a call once that one of the kids get to my house they’re literally just across the street from me ( they moved away out of the city at one point too far to comparent according to the law but that’s another story for another time ) So if she didn’t care she wouldn’t care if they reached my house safely. That being said, she is undiagnosed and is emotionally abusive towards the kids because she doesn’t take care of herself it get help with dealing with self regulating her emotions and anger issues that are unwarranted for most if not all situations.

SD11 is pretty tied to SD13 -- asking her opinion about what she should wear and do. So, if SD13 did move over here, it could prompt SD11 more than she'd naturally think, to come over as well.

The middle one has a learning disability and is autistic but he’s highly functional and is motivated and works hard in school but he does his own thing with his friends etc. The youngest one is really attached to the oldest but realistically the oldest might be around for another four years but is welcome to stay home with me if he’s going to college or university etc.

When all of this happened 7 years ago they e been moving as a unit from both homes so there’s going to be another adjustment period but probably not as severe as the last time but the balance in the house will change and there’s no significant other that takes the brunt of exuBPDw that’s different this time and I’m not the one that’s the vessel for all of her anger either the divorce was finalized quite awhile ago and I don’t give her any attention so it’s mostly quiet except for that incident a couple of years ago.

Also, am I remembering right that for a while your ex used your 14YO's transitioning as kind of a "weapon" against you? Like, you were the "bad dad" for wanting to take it slow and think about things, and she was the "supportive mom" protecting your kid from you? So, now, all of a sudden, Mom has these critical friends? And Mom just lets the criticism happen? Interesting...

That’s correct.

We've had every living situation under the sun and all I can say is, for all that I feared and the things that went wrong, there was unexpected good. My oldest learned who her dad really was. It broke her heart but she also learned how to maintain a boundary with him. Her little sister moved in with them (kells is onto something with the sibling worship). Oldest hated younger so I was worried about them attacking each other. Instead they built an alliance and worked together to defend themselves against their dad.

This is what I was looking for thank you pursuingJoy, that the fact that it’s not all bad.

If he doesn’t want to go back here he’s old enough to decide so wherever he decides to stay it becomes the majority so if she’s compelled to take me to court over this and he doesn’t want to go back there’s going to have to be compelling reasons.

As I’ve stated in past threads my exuBPDw has a pattern so what I have to do is ignore her acting out and crazy making behavior and when it comes to court she hates it and she knows that she simply cannot function as well or follow me she can only go so far. What I mean is if stay calm and don’t react and and stay centered and continue being centered she can only go so far and she stops. It’s worked every single time against her. Now she would completely demolish me if I tried to play at her level which I absolutely stay away from 100%.

What I meant in my prior post is that if it's that bad with his mother and he wants to cut visits with her, then the court could/should agree to make changes to the younger kids' schedule too in your favor.  Why take action for one child and, in effect, assume other kids don't need their schedules adjusted too?

You have a good point this could be the catalyst to change the status quo. The oldest has said that he hates mom and even the youngest has said that. It pains me to hear that they hate their mother these are strong words but I cannot completely put myself in their shoes and understand absolute certainty what their lives are like from day to day with a borderline mom. Being married to one I get it but I can divorce her which I dud and she’s completely out my life but you’re parent is sick with this disorder I’m not something that I can completely empathize with.

My father to this day still has untreated anxiety, ADHD and narcissistic traits although I wouldn’t say that he has NPD traits he’s on the spectrum but he’s nowhere near as bad on the spectrum as exuBPDw I can empathize up to a certain point but having a mentally ill parent that’s undiagnosed and not helping themselves to improve their emotional and mental health I can relate with. I do what I do because of what I went through and I don’t want them to fall through cracks like I did when I was kid. I got kicked out 15 and lived on my own after 16 - there was a period where I was in foster care and group homes and I don’t want them go through that.

The youngest I’m pretty sure would stay with me, exuBPDw suggested it a couple of years ago that it might be a good idea sone kids stayed with certain parents I think that she was hinting at him because he’s been the black with her since after he was a toddler.

[worriedStepmom]

You've come a long way in your relationship with your oldest.  I'm so glad it is working out so well for the two of you 

I would encourage you to see if you could get custody of all of the kids. 

I know that underneath that I don’t give her credit on these boards because she does care for the kids. I am lucky in that sense compared to others and I am grateful. What I mean is that she wants a text or a call once that one of the kids get to my house they’re literally just across the street from me ( they moved away out of the city at one point too far to comparent according to the law but that’s another story for another time ) So if she didn’t care she wouldn’t care if they reached my house safely. That being said, she is undiagnosed and is emotionally abusive towards the kids because she doesn’t take care of herself it get help with dealing with self regulating her emotions and anger issues that are unwarranted for most if not all situations.

My H's ex is similar to this.  She genuinely loves SD12.  However, her emotional abuse escalated to cancel that out.  It was really hard for SD, especially ages 10/11 - mom constantly says she loves me, mom sometimes shows that she loves me, but other times mom is mean and makes me cry.    H got primary custody two years ago, and when it didn't get better he now has 90% custody.  That was finally enough to convince mom to get help and make changes; she's been doing a lot better in the last few months.  SD is a lot happier now - she gets the safety and security of our house, and mom is making more of an effort to be a good mom when they see each other.

If your youngest has long been painted black, I'd worry about what will happen when the oldest is gone.

[Mutt]

You all have a good point with full custody and to use Foreverdad’s words, I think that I won’t gain anything if I don’t try to shame the tree, I will I would have S14 at home full time but I won’t know with the other two. There is nothing to lose if I try but there is everything to gain if I do.

[pursuingJoy]

I know that underneath that I don’t give her credit on these boards because she does care for the kids.

It's a sign of maturity that you can acknowledge that she cares in the way she can. What if our exes are doing the best they can with what they have? Centering myself in this way has helped me guide my kids through their dad's dysfunctional behavior. 

What I mean is if stay calm and don’t react and and stay centered and continue being centered she can only go so far and she stops. It’s worked every single time against her. Now she would completely demolish me if I tried to play at her level which I absolutely stay away from 100%.

Hard earned wisdom, Mutt! My ex's bark was bigger than his bite too, especially when it came to court. Discovering that takes the fear out of these encounters, doesn't it?

I have no doubt you'll make the right choices. I know it's so hard to watch your kids go through this, even harder for them to come to terms with who their mom is and how that impacts them. Thinking of you all!   

[kells76]

Mutt, were you able to have any conversations this weekend?

[Mutt]

I wanted to wait for the right moment. I didn’t want to have a huge talk on the weekend that the kids got here. I didn’t want to be a bummer and my gf says that I’m insensitive- ages right that I dint pick the right moments to say things and I can be too forthcoming instead of saying things in a non direct manner. M constantly working on this.

I talked to him today and said that I didn’t forget about the talk that we’re supposed to have. He said that he’s still thinking about it and wants to talk to the social worker at school someone that is not directly involved. I said that’s a good idea and make sure that they’re objectionable and not biased as well.

He said that basically he doesn’t feel good when he’s at moms and feels a lot better at my house. He doesn’t like his room at moms it’s always chaotic with the kids and I could see that he was searching for a descriptive word when it came to mom and he said mom is agressive.

I said that you’re old enough to decide where you want to stay the door is always open and I said think about the effect that that may have on the youngest ones because they love you to death. S8 is really attached and I said I’m sure that your sister ( not my child ) that’s 4 is really attached as well.  

[Longterm]

Hi Mutt.

  He said that basically he doesn’t feel good when he’s at moms and feels a lot better at my house. He doesn’t like his room at moms it’s always chaotic with the kids and I could see that he was searching for a descriptive word when it came to mom and he said mom is agressive. 
 

It's a real issue when the pwBPD makes others feel anxious and I can relate to all you have said as I experienced it with my kids too. I like your term "lightning rod", I always felt like the exes anger and hostility needed to be directed at somebody, unfortunately it was the children and I still see (and feel) their anxiety.

I have also seen that their anxiety and general happiness has improved drastically the longer there is NC. maybe there will be a lot of anger thrown around along with accusations? In the long term it will probably be worth it so that your son can lead a happier, much calmer and much more functional life.

The other children may choose to jump ship too at some point, welcome them with open arms and show them a better life.

Not really much in the way of advice as you have been given plenty, if you can accommodate, go for it 

LT.

[Turkish]

If we could boil it down, S14 is of legal age where you at are to choose.  Your son's are far away. S14 may feel responsible for them, but also needs to feel safe. What a change from early last year when her mom cast you as the danger! Do you get a feeling that S14 feels responsible for his bothers?

[Mutt]

Do you get a feeling that S14 feels responsible for his bothers?

I certainly hope that the conversation that we had didn’t make him feel Obligation in FOG.

It’s an adult decision and I’m trying to show him to step back outside of yourself and look at it from different angles. How does my decision impact me? How does it impact others?

To your point I didn’t get the impression that he felt  a responsibility or duty to his siblings  - which is good because he’s been parentified enough.

I just want him to be a 14 year old and not worry about taking care of others.

[Turkish]

That's good. You, like me and so many others here, have learned that taking care of ourselves is paramount and necessary. 

[mart555]

I talked to him today and said that I didn’t forget about the talk that we’re supposed to have. He said that he’s still thinking about it and wants to talk to the social worker at school someone that is not directly involved. I said that’s a good idea and make sure that they’re objectionable and not biased as well.

Pretty much every other forum where people don't have a clue about BPD so I feat that the social worker will say "it's much better for a child to spend time with both parents" and that will confuse him even more.

Is he aware that his mom has BPD?  Mine made a huge amount of progress once he understood that he had been split black, and the push pull game.  (he's now 15)

[Waddams]

I support FD's point of going for it all if it comes to it.

I also support S14 talking to a counselor about the decision. Maybe a private practice in addition to the school counselor as well.

I'd shy away from encouraging S14 to consider impacts to his siblings. This is a very personal decision for him, about his own well being, and it's appropriate for to think about his well being as first priority. If he made the switch, he'd not be losing all contact and relationship with his siblings, either.

I've become a fan of involving courts and lawyers as little as possible, they burn up money/time/resources and don't really solve anything anyway. If S14, his mom, and you can come to an agreement that allows him to make this switch without need to litigate, I'd go that way and see how it settles with his siblings before going down the court path.

[ForeverDad]

If S14, his mom, and you can come to an agreement that allows him to make this switch without need to litigate, I'd go that way and see how it settles with his siblings before going down the court path.

In my experience, I realized that giving my ex choices, such as during an attempted negotiation, made her flame out.  So I learned not to 'help' her by offering a list of options.  So it may be better to present the matter as one where "this is what will happen".  Yes, son will likely still experience an extinction burst (raging and wheedling to pressure a retreat) but it may be lessened.

Maybe a concession could be for son to try his preference to the end of the school year.  I don't know what your current schedule is but when I got majority time with my son in 2014 the court limited it to the school year, the summer was still 50/50.  Of course, my kid did not have the issues/conflict with his mother that your son has, so don't open the door for ex to expect to have son back after school year end.

[mart555]

I certainly hope that the conversation that we had didn’t make him feel Obligation in FOG.

It likely is the case..  My oldest son really feels protective of his little brother.  It's kind of nice to see them as a team, they need it when they see their mom.