Talking with a new court appointed countelor

[CoherentMoose]

Sounds like your "Ju-jitsu Parenting" skills are being severely tested.  Has to be heartbreaking for you.    jdc

[worriedStepmom]

Do you get any response if you don't engage oldest and instead tease the kid you're trying to talk to?  "I'm the worst manipulator in the entire world, huh?  How long do you think it will take until I can talk you into standing on your head and yodeling?"

Or something truly off-the-wall like that?  Perhaps paired with your example of a yodel.

Alternatively, a firm "I'm talking to X child right now.  It's impolite to interrupt."  Then turn to X and focus on feelings - "how do you feel when big brother interrupts you?  Are you frustrated or irritated or relieved?" / "Does it make you feel sad when someone says I'm trying to manipulate you?"

[Wilkinson]

Do you get any response if you don't engage oldest and instead tease the kid you're trying to talk to?  

Usually not.  One time my 12 year old flipped me off and my mother who was right there, said, "Do you have a license to be flying that?"  in a funny way not reprimanding.  Once they know he's watching they usually won't engage.  On another occasion, I did tease the same kid and it made him smile.  I pointed out his smile, and then he went into a total melt down.  Maybe I'm over speculating, but part of me wonders if the meltdown was to make up for the fact that he smiled at me in front of his brother.

"Does it make you feel sad when someone says I'm trying to manipulate you?"

That's a good suggestion.  I'll try that angle next time.

[Sluggo]

Wilkenson,

Good evening.  I do not know your story very well, but know that I have lived it also. 

Was married 18yrs with 7 kids... day I left in 2016 kids were 16,14, 11, 8, 7, 5, and 2. 
Been to 4-5 therapists from 2010-2016. 

Parental alienation was awful.  Many manifestations of the extreme alienation during the years after the separation.  One example that comes to mind: daughter who was 8 is special needs with dwarfism.  She could not wipe herself when going to bathroom.  It was something that was a matter of routine until day I left and then she not go to restroom unless older sister helped. **Mom told kids in front of me that I was sick to want to have my daughters at my apartment by myself***

My 8 year old spent night with the 6 yr old.  My 8 year old with dwarfism did not go the restroom for almost 24 hours.  She would not allow me to help her.  The next day in morning still holding it in,  she went to a neighbors house who she did not know...  i only had met once as I just moved into neighborhood...  with intention to ask him to help her go bathroom.  A total stranger over her father.   My 6 year old told me that is why they snuck out of house.  Luckily neighbor did not answer door. 

Crazy stories of total rejection of me happened all the time.   It was awful, but like you said I got use to it some. 

Now 4 years later it is better with all but oldest 2.  My 15 yr just told CPS that she feels like she doesn't have to walk on eggshells in my home or feel paranoid.  CPS has been called on my by wife a couple of times to investigate allegations. 

The youngest 3 always felt comfortable showing love to me.  Middle 2 much harder but have softened.  However, the success with the middle 2 came only after mom abandoned them telling court she voluntarily gives up all custody and visitation.  Only wants visitation 30 days in summer.  It was the long uninterrupted time with them that seemed to help the most. 

The older 2 were never made to come to my house ...  by the time the court ruled on the contempts and final hearing, oldest 2 had already turned 18 and told.me that they would not come. 

I share your pain.  It is so hard.  'Ryan Thomas speaks' videos and online courses was very helpful for me to keep perspective  and dr. Childress book foundations. 

 

[Wilkinson]

Thanks Sluggo.  It is hard.  There's a book that just came out I'm trying to work through.  It's a textbook so it won't be easy.  It's Parental Alienation Science and Law by Demosthenes Lorandos and William Bernet. 

I've spent so much money and racked up so much debt on legal costs.  It feels like things are starting to move in my direction, but I don't know what the end result will be and how much more I'm going to need to spend. 

What sickens me is all the stories of parental alienation that I am now hearing and nobody seems to be able to find help from mental health professionals or the courts.  It's as if, they can't prove it or don't understand it so they proceed if it doesn't exist.  However, if someone was physically beating a child, they all step in. However, the emotional and psychological abuse of parental alienation can have just as bad of consequences on children, if not worse.

[livednlearned]

If I ask his sister about the books she is reading, before she can say anything, he'll pipe up, "She doesn't have to answer you."  When I say, I'm talking with her and would like to know what she says, and that it is a benign question, he as often told me to stop trying to manipulate her. 

Ugh. He is weaponizing the word manipulate against you when in fact he's the one engaging in it. I don't mean to minimize the abuse being done to him by your ex and the tragedy of alienation abuse, because he's a child and clearly influenced by her behavior, but he is having an effect on the potentially beneficial relationships with the rest of the kids. 

How would you feel about dissecting the word manipulation for him?

"If I was trying to manipulate her, and I'm not saying I'm not, because manipulation means that I want something, and I do want something. I want to have a loving relationship with my children. I think that's pretty out there for everyone. No ulterior motive there.

However, if I'm not mistaken -- maybe you can correct me if this doesn't sound right -- I think you're using the word manipulation to imply that I want to take advantage of her in some way. Is that what concerns you? That I'm trying to get something I want at her expense?

I'll be honest with you. If I was trying to take advantage of you guys, I probably wouldn't do it by asking you what you're reading."

I know people don't really talk like that but the gist is to call him out on his own BS.

He's trying to control and manipulate his siblings by accusing you of doing what he doesn't want them to notice, which is that he's not letting them have a relationship with you.

[kells76]

Oooh, yes, what LnL said.

If you just go straight at it with him and have a conversation about manipulation, I wonder if it could go like this:

You: "So, manipulation is when a person tries to get another person to do what THEY want, not what the other person wants, right?"

Son: "sure whatever"

You: "OK, so we basically agree on what manipulation is. So if someone wants to do something, and someone else steps in and is like "no you don't want to", would you call that manipulation?"

Son: "fine I guess"

You: "Do you think people know when they're being manipulative?"

(fine to get an answer either way -- Yes they do, or No they might not. You can roll with either direction -- all setting up the double bind)

You: "Huh... I'm confused, then. Sis could tell me about her book if she wanted to. I hear you say to me, about her, that she doesn't have to. But if she wants to... and you don't want her to... hmmmm. That's... interesting."

...

It's a construct, and the conversation won't go like that, but the goal of it is to put him in the jiu-jitsu armlock. OK, you want to bring up manipulation? Let's go there! Let's go there so far, and so hard, that you have to face something about yourself.

I know people don't really talk like that but the gist is to call him out on his own BS.

Yes. And review your Dr. Childress before picking up that conversation. He has some good ideas on how to not "go too far" with the armlock -- how to basically drop the conclusion in your kid's lap and not "force them to see it", but to make it inevitable that they either have to face it, or "escape".

[Wilkinson]

Yes. And review your Dr. Childress before picking up that conversation. He has some good ideas on how to not "go too far" with the armlock

Thank you.  This is all very helpful information.  It's really been hard to think through it when it happens.  I've really been struggling to read up on it because it's so depressing to learn more about parental alienation.  I usually feel worse whenever I learn more about it.

[livednlearned]

It's so hard to catch this stuff when it's happening.

One of the things that helped me was to talk to a child psychologist about how to respond. Not a psychologist who was treating my son, more like a consultant for me. He came into a few sessions with my therapist, and I had a list of repeating scenarios/conversations that the child psychologist helped me figure out how to address.  

A handful of ready phrases that you can use, especially with your older child, can be priceless.

My dad likes to say you can't win a pissing match with a skunk. We have to learn how skunks behave and get a few pro tips from professionals so we don't get sprayed.  

Alienation is like a 40 lb skunk.

[ForeverDad]

I often felt trapped in sudden "ex wins or I lose" dilemmas.  It was like she knew how to spring them on unsuspecting me.  Over time I learned the value of not responding immediately and giving myself time to ponder a better response.

For example, you don't have to respond immediately to son's pressuring.  Maybe a simple, "Let's talk about this later" will buy you time to frame some of these strategies to fit the situation and yet not be in the midst of the tension.

[kells76]

It's really been hard to think through it when it happens.  I've really been struggling to read up on it because it's so depressing to learn more about parental alienation.  I usually feel worse whenever I learn more about it.

Sorry it took me a while to reply. DH has the same struggle. I have to slow down and ask him "Are you up for hearing some ideas now, or would later be better" type questions, instead of just plowing forward with "I read about this new triangulation dynamic and let me tell you about how it's exactly what's going on" blah blah blah. He is getting better at talking through new tools with me, but it has taken a long time. As stepmom, I can sometimes switch over into "abstract" mode because it's just less personal. DH hurts a lot when the kids (really, their mom & stepdad) do the "I don't want to come over" stuff. Parenting has been extremely painful for him, and I think reading about PA-type stuff just reinforces the pain. So, you're not alone.

Watch any good rock climbing videos lately? Do anything else to take care of yourself?

[Wilkinson]

Watch any good rock climbing videos lately? Do anything else to take care of yourself?

I haven't watched much TV lately.  I did some outdoor work with a friend though and that was nice.

[kells76]

Yeah. In between the buckets of rain dumping here, I'm trying to get more veggies planted in the garden. Yesterday: radish seeds.

The Japanese knotweed is taking over the side yard. Ugh, a big project. Maybe this weekend I'll try to get it out, down to the roots.

What kind of outdoor work do you tend to do?

[ForeverDad]

My metropolitan area is overrun with invasive honeysuckle brush.  Yuck!  They crowd out native plants and you can't even walk through the forest anymore.  Well, I went out and was uprooting some, usually after using a limb lopper to cut some of the roots first.  (If you leave the root ball it will just send up multiple shoots worse than the initial trunk.)

Now I have pushback from my heart specialists that my new defibrillator implant is logging heart arrhythmia whenever I am too intense in my activities.  I should have known I was better off relaxing while watching my movies.

[GaGrl]

In my yard, I have azalea and hydrangea to be pruned, and they have to be pruned very precisely. Outside my dence, we have kudzu and honeysuckle to be cut back 4' from my fenceline. I need to transplant a palmetto tree, a crape myrtle, and a rose bush.

Lots to do.

Zen time.