Planning future exit strategy

[UBPDHelp]

I have been mostly on the conflicted board the last few months. I’ve recently been bouncing here because I think I recognize my options are divorce or continue to live in constant dysregulation he!.

Brief recent history...a recent conversation turned abruptly to his discussing our “impending” divorce, child custody, support. He’s been making idle threats and comments about separating/divorce soon. These were random 1-2x a year the past 5-6 years, but the last year is frequently to say the least.

Here is the long thread from the conflicted board if you dare (or want more details/background).

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344645.0

It is fairly settled that there is NPD and BPD. I don’t know enough about either to know if NPD requires BPD, too, but BPD doesn’t require NPD, neither requires either or both require each other. That’s my brain twister! In fairness I should mention all of the wonderful advisors have done an awesome job helping and explaining, it’s just so much info to absorb.  

My current divorcing prep question is this:

One other thing I’m mulling/working through.

Despite such horrible behavior, I believe he either forgets or justifies it.

I believe he will be beyond dysregulated if I am the one to initiate divorce (hence disappointment at his apology). I was hoping he would stay on track and I could go under HIS choice.

So until I have set plans and a way to get out, I don’t intend on initiating. I will speak to L this week (I hope he stays away so I can, ugh).

Does anyone have suggestions here?  Flaws in this plan?

I know I’m probably overlooking things or may not understand how he may respond. Appreciate any insight/suggestions. Thank you!

[livednlearned]

Despite such horrible behavior, I believe he either forgets or justifies it.

It may be a combination of both. Whatever it is, the ways he manages his emotions solves a short term problem (control of _____) but creates a long-term problem (broken relationships, lack of connection).

I believe he will be beyond dysregulated if I am the one to initiate divorce

Yes, because the important point is that he's in the one-up position. Also, BPD scrambles rational arguments, especially when they are about interpersonal matters.

until I have set plans and a way to get out, I don’t intend on initiating

Do you feel comfortable gathering information and getting your ducks in a row for now, and making a decision when it seems to best suit your circumstances?

Let's say you have him served. He's living with you under your roof. What would occur next?

In my situation, things escalated to the point I couldn't answer the question whether I was safe or not. He had been locking me out of the house, closed a door on me as I was trying to get back in the house, hid my keys and purse, threw our dog, in addition to the usual yelling, drinking, etc. I left when it became clear he was about to financially abuse me. I received an email notification that access to one of my credit cards had been frozen and that's the day I left.

With advice from my lawyer and friends, I had prepared for leaving by opening a credit card in my name only, researching apartments, moving small amounts of my paycheck each week into an account in my name, rented a storage shed where I stored belongings and items that carried nostalgia for me (my son's drawings, photos, etc.) and important legal documents. I kept a journal on the cloud, tracked as much as I could in a calendar, and essentially prepared for the day when my ex either served me papers or changed the locks on the house.

In other words, I made the decision to make the decision, if that makes sense.

One thing I did the day I left was to draft funds from our home equity line of credit at my lawyer's recommendation. She didn't advise me to do it exactly, she said something like, "I'm not telling you to do this, I'm telling you that I've had clients who did this and there have been no repercussions."

So I did that, sort of like giving myself an advance. It gave me a lot more leverage than I would've had if I waited for my ex to decide on doling out funds. Did it make him angry? He! yes. But when I look back, I realize he had been angry about so many things I didn't do. I seemed to struggle when I actually did something to warrant his anger, but the anger was the same. It was freeing to recognize that, to be honest.

I have a sense that you will see more clear paths once you have a chance to talk to a lawyer. It's kind of like college. You think, "I'll become a _______" and then you start finding out everything that's required to get there. A lawyer will give you information on how things work, and some paths will open that you didn't know were there. Or you'll recognize that you can take path A or path B depending on variables your H or the virus or ______ present for you.

[MeandThee29]

Mine left and initiated the divorce after talking about it periodically for over a decade. It was constantly in the background for the last year or so together. Lots of gaslighting. There would be a big blowup the night before, and then he'd be on my case for being tired the next day, denying that it ever happened.  He used that sort of thing to convince his relatives that I'm crazy.

I was most worried about the finances, and for good reason. I had largely given up my career and was an older mother. He had threatened multiple times that we would be living in my car and going to the foodbank if he divorced me. There were indeed some very lean years, and I didn't recover financially until after the divorce and not because of him. I felt bad about the house we rented (a bit of a dump), not being able to take vacations, and having some lean Christmas and birthday holidays, but I did what I could.

I did investigate divorce laws and procedures here-and-there and talked to a lawyer at one point. I listened when people talked about certain attorneys in my immediate area and what they liked and didn't like about them.  When it came time to pick, I knew exactly what I wanted, and he was great.

[UBPDHelp]

It may be a combination of both. Whatever it is, the ways he manages his emotions solves a short term problem (control of _____) but creates a long-term problem (broken relationships, lack of connection).

Yes, because the important point is that he's in the one-up position. Also, BPD scrambles rational arguments, especially when they are about interpersonal matters.

Do you feel comfortable gathering information and getting your ducks in a row for now, and making a decision when it seems to best suit your circumstances?

Yes, I am trying to do this. I have a call with a L but we’re still stay home so I don’t really know if it’s safe to make the call. I’m pulling documents and have pulled some of my jewelry aside. I’m now going to work on mementos that are important to me and only are important to him as leverage. Nothing of monetary value, but sentimental value.

I’m looking at storage facilities. I want to make sure all billing is electronic. I don’t want a bill to accidentally show up. I’m trying to get my credit in order and get a job. Good luck to me.

Let's say you have him served. He's living with you under your roof. What would occur next?

If I serve, I believe it is a dysregulated nightmare. Possibility of broken things, although if he now knows I’m serious he may decide to focus on looking good and making me look bad. Regardless, if at all possible I want somewhere to go if I end up having to serve him.

My preference would to quietly plan, get as much ready and then when he threatens next, just go. I think it will be better if he feels he did it. Idk.

In my situation, things escalated to the point I couldn't answer the question whether I was safe or not. He had been locking me out of the house, closed a door on me as I was trying to get back in the house, hid my keys and purse, threw our dog, in addition to the usual yelling, drinking, etc. I left when it became clear he was about to financially abuse me. I received an email notification that access to one of my credit cards had been frozen and that's the day I left.

That is a concern but haven’t hit that point yet. I hope not to. He’s broken things and thrown things a couple of times, but never actually physically hurt me. But I know that could quickly change, especially if he feels he lost control.

With advice from my lawyer and friends, I had prepared for leaving by opening a credit card in my name only, researching apartments, moving small amounts of my paycheck each week into an account in my name, rented a storage shed where I stored belongings and items that carried nostalgia for me (my son's drawings, photos, etc.) and important legal documents. I kept a journal on the cloud, tracked as much as I could in a calendar, and essentially prepared for the day when my ex either served me papers or changed the locks on the house.

In other words, I made the decision to make the decision, if that makes sense.

It does make sense. If I can get enough together, I may get to that point if he hasn’t by then. But I have no job and nowhere to go and kids, so it’s not a decision I take lightly.

One thing I did the day I left was to draft funds from our home equity line of credit at my lawyer's recommendation. She didn't advise me to do it exactly, she said something like, "I'm not telling you to do this, I'm telling you that I've had clients who did this and there have been no repercussions."

I don’t have anything like that available. H hasn’t worked in 3 months despite being primary breadwinner. Just won’t even try to do anything and he could.

So I did that, sort of like giving myself an advance. It gave me a lot more leverage than I would've had if I waited for my ex to decide on doling out funds. Did it make him angry? He! yes. But when I look back, I realize he had been angry about so many things I didn't do. I seemed to struggle when I actually did something to warrant his anger, but the anger was the same. It was freeing to recognize that, to be honest.

I have a sense that you will see more clear paths once you have a chance to talk to a lawyer. It's kind of like college. You think, "I'll become a _______" and then you start finding out everything that's required to get there. A lawyer will give you information on how things work, and some paths will open that you didn't know were there. Or you'll recognize that you can take path A or path B depending on variables your H or the virus or ______ present for you.

I hope so. Without a job, my biggest concern right now is finances. I’ve always worked throughout our marriage. I stopped right before the holidays — my dad passed away, the hours kept increasing and the company changed directions again. I just needed to change. Waited to seriously start looking until end of Jan/beg of Feb and got two offers that were put on hold just as pandemic hit. One place is about out of business, the other has said they don’t know and may be laying off current people. So back to looking and now competing with a LOT more people. I’m a bit terrified of this.

We’ll see what the L says. Thanks for your feedback.

[ForeverDad]

He is probably like many of our ex-spouses, an expert at manipulating people, history and reality.  He's had years, probably much of a lifetime, honing his skills of misdirection, confusion, manipulation, blaming, blame shifting, sabotage and whatever.  Gaslighting comes to mind too.  Did you ever watch that 1944 movie Gaslight?  Or Pacific Heights?

LnL and the others listed a long list of insightful perspectives and practical strategies.  That's just scratching the surface of our accumulated experience and resources.

Let's use that word again... strategies.  Be strategic in everything you do.  He's an expert at making you feel cornered, confused, obligated, guilted, turning the tables in unexpected ways.  Then you feel sorry (in the past, hopefully not now) and want to be "fair".  "Warning, Will Robinson!"  This is not a time to  retreat, acquiesce or expose yourself in clueless ways.

Yes, it is hard, so very had.  But you have an edge.  We've seen these disordered patterns over and over.  It's almost like they have a BPD 101 class and a BPD Handbook.  Although he will be erratic and have moods all over the map, the overall patterns are almost predictable.  We've already listed some of them for you.  They do vary from person to person but overall almost anything he does, even if we didn't anticipate it, has been encountered here before.

Life does get better, well, eventually.  Right now it's rough and you don't know what's coming next.  We all have shared that here over the years.  I lurked in 2005, became a member in 2006, was a board advisor from 2007 to 2009 before it was just too much for me, since then I've been a frequent poster.  As for the legal issues, I separated in late 2005, divorce took about two years, final decree in 2008, returned to court for custody and majority time in 2010, got custody in 2011, went back and in 2013 I got majority time during the school year.  It was only after that last trip to court that her entitlement bubble was deflated enough that we haven't been back to court since.  Now our son is an adult and the orders are aged out.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel after all.

[UBPDHelp]

He is probably like many of our ex-spouses, an expert at manipulating people, history and reality.  He's had years, probably much of a lifetime, honing his skills of misdirection, confusion, manipulation, blaming, blame shifting, sabotage and whatever.  Gaslighting comes to mind too.  Did you ever watch that 1944 movie Gaslight?  Or Pacific Heights?

LnL and the others listed a long list of insightful perspectives and practical strategies.  That's just scratching the surface of our accumulated experience and resources.

Let's use that word again... strategies.  Be strategic in everything you do.  He's an expert at making you feel cornered, confused, obligated, guilted, turning the tables in unexpected ways.  Then you feel sorry (in the past, hopefully not now) and want to be "fair".  "Warning, Will Robinson!"  This is not a time to  retreat, acquiesce or expose yourself in clueless ways.

Yes, it is hard, so very had.  But you have an edge.  We've seen these disordered patterns over and over.  It's almost like they have a BPD 101 class and a BPD Handbook.  Although he will be erratic and have moods all over the map, the overall patterns are almost predictable.  We've already listed some of them for you.  They do vary from person to person but overall almost anything he does, even if we didn't anticipate it, has been encountered here before.

Life does get better, well, eventually.  Right now it's rough and you don't know what's coming next.  We all have shared that here over the years.  I lurked in 2005, became a member in 2006, was a board advisor from 2007 to 2009 before it was just too much for me, since then I've been a frequent poster.  As for the legal issues, I separated in late 2005, divorce took about two years, final decree in 2008, returned to court for custody and majority time in 2010, got custody in 2011, went back and in 2013 I got majority time during the school year.  It was only after that last trip to court that her entitlement bubble was deflated enough that we haven't been back to court since.  Now our son is an adult and the orders are aged out.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel after all.

Hi ForeverDad, thanks for the feedback and sharing your experience. It is daunting to say the least.

I’ve been spending time on the conflicted board, mostly because they know so much of my history. I’ve mostly settled that we can’t continue. I’ve had a hard time accepting that he isn’t who he used to be, likely never was, and trying to understand what is real and what’s not.

I’m convinced that he’s NPD.  There are so many things and he’s exerted nonstop NPD behavior throughout the quarantine. It’s always been there but something about seeing it without a break has made seeing it, even from before, so much easier.

I’m scared. I’ve been programmed to need to run every decision past him. And yet I make and implement most of them. I allowed him to alienate me — really my fault for allowing it. Most were minor transgressions that I thought would blow over but he just kept them alive, leaving me without much support. So, yes, scared.

 I just got a new job, so feel like I’m working on a big obstacle, financial dependence. But even that feels uncertain — it’s new, pandemic cycles, etc., but it’s a start. He still makes 4-5x what I will, but I could probably scrape by if I had to. Still will have 3 kids at home.

I’m tired. Physically and emotionally. I don’t know which way is up.  But I’m working on these things.

My biggest concerns right now are his reaction if I’m the one to leave. I’m planning to hang around for a while to make sure the job is good and get some things in order. If I have to go quickly, I have the minimum ready to do so. 

And, I’m worried that despite telling me no less than a dozen times that he wants a divorce or were headed for divorce, that he doesn’t really want a divorce. Mostly because how others see him is SOO important to him.

Appreciate the support and sharing. It truly helps, thank you.

Always open to any suggestions, lessons learned or things to look out for.

Again, many thanks!

[livednlearned]

My biggest concerns right now are his reaction if I’m the one to leave.

Hey UPBDHelp,

He's going to have all the reactions you imagine he might. Each one will be designed to test your resolve. He may try tears, then promises, then pleading, and if that doesn't work he might go straight to bullying, threats, withdrawal, aggression. Then back again. Unless he has something else that he perceives as better, it's probably more likely than not that he wants the control patterns in your relationship to stay the same. Meaning, you stay put where he can be mad at you all the time.

My ex also had strong narcissistic traits, but the underlying wound presented as BPD.

He said a lot of things and threatened even more but when I look back at his behavior, he didn't actually do much of anything except stay engaged in the fight. Even when I gave him what he wanted (the house) he still fought with me.

What might be helpful for you is to look back on your history with him and list all the ways he fights to get what he wants. Then, when you leave, add a check mark each time you see that behavior.

It can be helpful to depersonalize this stuff when you're in the midst of it.

The tugs at our heart strings can feel like all-or-nothing in the moment but for the most part, in BPD/NPD relationships, the behaviors are more about getting a need met in that moment, using whatever tactics promise the biggest payoff.

Very rarely is there an intent beyond that moment to repair and recover, in my experience. It's more about surviving that moment or narcissistic injury.

[ForeverDad]

The only thing you can fully control is your own actions and reactions.  The other will have his/her own actions, reactions and overreactions.  However, yes, you can try to maneuver events and timing so as to reduce or minimize problems.  You'll never get it to zero risk.  The key is to determine what you discern as a balanced approach, not rushing too fast nor delaying too long.

What LnL described are what we call the ex's extinction bursts, the virtually automatic triggered responses to our newfound boundaries and decisions.  Put some forethought into it, plan for you to have support nearby at sensitive times and proceed as you deem appropriate.

Your concern about who should leave first might be a legal matter to discuss with your lawyer.  If you're worrying about the fault or guilt emotions, then realize understand the marriage is failing or failed, you're just deciding the timing.  Beware of the unrealistic FOG we often face (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).

[UBPDHelp]

Hey UPBDHelp,

He's going to have all the reactions you imagine he might. Each one will be designed to test your resolve. He may try tears, then promises, then pleading, and if that doesn't work he might go straight to bullying, threats, withdrawal, aggression. Then back again. Unless he has something else that he perceives as better, it's probably more likely than not that he wants the control patterns in your relationship to stay the same. Meaning, you stay put where he can be mad at you all the time.

My ex also had strong narcissistic traits, but the underlying wound presented as BPD.

He said a lot of things and threatened even more but when I look back at his behavior, he didn't actually do much of anything except stay engaged in the fight. Even when I gave him what he wanted (the house) he still fought with me.

What might be helpful for you is to look back on your history with him and list all the ways he fights to get what he wants. Then, when you leave, add a check mark each time you see that behavior.

It can be helpful to depersonalize this stuff when you're in the midst of it.

The tugs at our heart strings can feel like all-or-nothing in the moment but for the most part, in BPD/NPD relationships, the behaviors are more about getting a need met in that moment, using whatever tactics promise the biggest payoff.

Very rarely is there an intent beyond that moment to repair and recover, in my experience. It's more about surviving that moment or narcissistic injury.

Hi LNL,  I feel like I’ve grown this past week where this all just makes more sense. I’ve stopped (mostly) concerning myself with what he’s doing — which was predominantly fueled by my uncertainty if I was understanding the situation, being reasonable in my conclusions. Was it me?

I also stopped believing he could change or believing he ever really was the person I fell in love with. Doesn’t matter because he definitely isn’t now and zero interest in ever being. AND, realizing that it could simply be my choice. I choose not to do this anymore. And if I go by his word, I don’t want to make him miserable. Ugh. There you go — I choose.

As my resolve grew, my older kids opened up and shared some stories that I wasn’t aware of and a couple I was but hadn’t realized at the time the impact. Done. I thought most of the disorder was outside their eyes, but they were more aware than I thought. He’s also just spiraled the last several years.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your experience, it really helps to hear survivor stories. Thank you for your support!

[UBPDHelp]

The only thing you can fully control is your own actions and reactions.  The other will have his/her own actions, reactions and overreactions.  However, yes, you can try to maneuver events and timing so as to reduce or minimize problems.  You'll never get it to zero risk.  The key is to determine what you discern as a balanced approach, not rushing too fast nor delaying too long.

What LnL described are what we call the ex's extinction bursts, the virtually automatic triggered responses to our newfound boundaries and decisions.  Put some forethought into it, plan for you to have support nearby at sensitive times and proceed as you deem appropriate.

Your concern about who should leave first might be a legal matter to discuss with your lawyer.  If you're worrying about the fault or guilt emotions, then realize understand the marriage is failing or failed, you're just deciding the timing.  Beware of the unrealistic FOG we often face (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).

Hi ForeverDad,

Happy Father’s Day!

Thank you for your input. I read it last week and couldn’t make it through without tears. I let it sit and have had time to think it through.

It’s true, it really is about the timing. That time is quickly approaching.

I am so angry at him, at myself and then I feel sorry for him. But, I know that’s fleeting because it’s only a matter of time before he’s up to his old tricks.

As I said to LNL, it suddenly hit me that I could choose. It wasn’t just his choice and just as she mentioned, I’m a good punching bag so why would he choose?

I’ve had enough. I’d like to try for a happy, peaceful future. My kids deserve better. I deserve better.

I’ll share momentarily my planning...would love some feedback. 

[UBPDHelp]

So I’ve formulated a general plan and need to have a couple backups.

1. Will have calls with Ls in the next week to week and a half.  This will be tough because H refuses to go back to work. I believe he is using covid to decrease his pay and quit his job at this point.

2. I will talk to a couple Ts for me and kids. Decide where we’re comfortable.

3. I need time to put money together, fix a couple credit issues so I can rent/buy a place. I don’t want to stay in the house with him, but not sure I should leave either. Goodness knows he won’t.

       If things go awry, I may have to do something quickly, which I’d prefer not to.  On the other hand, renting for a year to get my things together AND have peace may be the answer. Just need to understand legal consequences of doing so.

4. Starting to gather more stuff. Need to get a storage unit to bring things to over the next few months. That’s a big part of covert plan so we can go quickly.

Need to figure out timing of letting him know I want a divorce. Not sure when that will be...will see what L says.


H is a L, and a very adversarial one at that. I am concerned about whether the two I’ve picked (so far) will end up conflicted out. I haven’t heard him say their names, so hoping not, but it could be.

I also am not sure HOW to tell who really is a HC divorce attorney.

Also, very concerned about financial support when he’s refusing to really work. He does some, but mostly shirks his responsibility.

And, any input on any tricks he might pull. He did tell me I am clinically paranoid. Umm, it was a joke I made and he knew it, but I can see him stewing. For the record, I’m not paranoid. Just done with the bs.

Anyway, please lmk if I’m missing any initial steps and any advice you all are willing to give. It is so very appreciated.

Bless you all.

[ForeverDad]

A lot of what we share is to help you see a better perspective overall.  And education is a huge part of the solutions, along with strategies, improved communication skills, etc.

About choice... have you read this fable as written by Edwin H. Friedman: The Bridge?  Follow the link, I think you'll want to print it out or bookmark it.

[UBPDHelp]

A lot of what we share is to help you see a better perspective overall.  And education is a huge part of the solutions, along with strategies, improved communication skills, etc.

About choice... have you read this fable as written by Edwin H. Friedman: The Bridge?  Follow the link, I think you'll want to print it out or bookmark it.

Thanks ForeverDad, of course I can see myself in the fable...I’ve been holding that rope for at least 5-7 years, likely more subtly unaware the entire 25 years. There used to be more, many more, good times. Now they virtually don’t exist. In all honesty, some may be because I can see now and I don’t believe any are genuine.

I’m going to reread this thread for help/suggestions, but can you tell me one or two ways to “know” a L can really handle a HC divorce?  Should I (could I even) ask for recommendations of previous HC divorce clients?  I don’t have any divorced friends to ask and I don’t trust my judgment.

How much should they know about personality disorders and how much should I share about my belief?  I feel like the text messages will give a flavor even if they can’t be used in court.

I don’t want to go into this to disparage him, but just to ensure L knows what I’m up against.

H has said he would let me decide custody and that there are formulas for alimony and child support. I’ve looked them up and he would need to pay me a lot. Granted he really stepped up his income the past 5-6 years with kids in college, etc. So, I dropped his income by a very generous 25% and he would still owe me a sizable amount. We have no real assets — house with mortgage, cars financed — so what are thoughts that most of this could be settled with mediation? 

Some specific issues for comment whether attainable of just wishful thinking...

I’d like him to maintain life insurance so that if anything happens to him, I can ensure the kids are taken care of. Idk if the minor children can be listed as beneficiaries (I believe so), but what would need to be in place to ensure the 10 yo didn’t make the decisions (aka lots of video games and slushies)?  Is this something I can ask for?

His behavior is erratic and he seems to be battling anxiety (he says) and depression (seems apparent).  Although he hasn’t put his hands on me or the kids, it has sometimes felt he is steps away.  I’m probably letting my imagination get the best of me, but I also have concern about kids spending a lot of time with him unsupervised. I have no “cause” (I mean his uNPD/uBPD feels like I do), so any measures I can take to ensure the kids are safe while with him?  They have phones but potentially they could be taken away or not on them. Open to any thoughts.

And, we live in a somewhat expensive town. I can’t really afford a place on my own, but depending on any support I may get, I might be able to. Obviously there’s a lot of time until that’s known/decided.

Any thoughts on trying to stay in same town vs a fresh start (not too far)?

Sorry to keep coming with more questions.  Took me a long time to land here. Now sorting how all of this will work.

Thank you!

 I’ve gotten really good at seeing the behaviors, some at predicting behaviors, but still stink at dealing with behaviors.

[livednlearned]

I’ve gotten really good at seeing the behaviors, some at predicting behaviors, but still stink at dealing with behaviors.

I would focus less on whether you stink at dealing with behaviors and more on being kind to yourself. Talking this way to yourself just helps mean people do their job  

These marriages, the parenting relationships, the divorces -- they are insanely difficult. You're here getting support, working hard to solve what might end up being the hardest thing you've ever done in your life. You've raised three kids despite being married to a mentally ill adult child who undoes most of the things you work so hard to set in motion. Don't let anyone, including you, diminish the strength you have.

There is a flickering flame of self-love in there that needs to be protected at all costs. You will be surprised how much can flow from that self-respect if you work to preserve it.

Here's an article about how to size up your lawyer for a high-conflict divorce: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

If you start a thread asking for advice about questions for the L friends here will be glad to help  

[ForeverDad]

Yes, get local legal advice.  Interview at least a few attorneys.  Ponder what their approaches would be, the strategies they would be inclined to use, etc.  You don't want form filers or hand holders.  This almost surely won't be a standard low conflict divorce.  You will probably need a problem solving lawyer with tested strategies.  You can even ask the lawyers, "If you were facing a case like mine, who would you use to represent you?"  After all, they know they're not going to get every person who walks in the door as a client.  And ethically if they're not up to the task then they should point you in the right direction.

Yes, he should maintain the policies.  About life insurance, I think most companies will not allow a minor to be a direct beneficiary.  What I did on my policies was to list my son this way:  "In trust for {child} pursuant to will dated {date}."  Then my will handled how the assets would be apportioned with a selected trustee.  I'm not sure how you would enforce your ex complying, that may be a question for your lawyer to address.

Be aware that if his life policies are through his work, they may terminate when he leaves that job or retires.  And if it's a term policy then it has an end date and no benefits after that end date.

I cringe a bit when I read a newer member writing about being "very generous" to the problem ex.  Since your ex probably is not as fair as you, you need to be careful not to Gift Away too much since the risk is high your sense of fairness is unlikely to be similarly reciprocated.  My point is that while you may end up with negotiated amounts that are less than the calculations might indicate, you be at that point when you finish negotiations, not from the start.  Does that perspective make sense?  For example, you may use that adjustment in ex's favor as part of your strategy to gain something in another parenting matter that you need more than the full sum of money.

[UBPDHelp]

I would focus less on whether you stink at dealing with behaviors and more on being kind to yourself. Talking this way to yourself just helps mean people do their job  .

Agree.  Part of the reason I believe I’ve been stuck in neutral is because I’ve listened to his demeaning me for so long that I just didn’t believe I would be able to manage without him.

A big thing is questioning my confidence in myself — interestingly he berated me as a bad decision maker, a hillbilly, rube and yet relied on my input the majority of the time. Always “what do you think?”  And the kicker is he would then take credit for the decision.

On the other board I likened this to a ventriloquist throwing their voice. I spent so much time looking at the voice that I didn’t see where it was actually coming from.

These marriages, the parenting relationships, the divorces -- they are insanely difficult. You're here getting support, working hard to solve what might end up being the hardest thing you've ever done in your life. You've raised three kids despite being married to a mentally ill adult child who undoes most of the things you work so hard to set in motion. Don't let anyone, including you, diminish the strength you have.

True, and I’ve buried both my parents and alienated my sister (he did this BUT I let him, so it really is me). 

Now that my kids understand I’m serious, they’ve shared more with me about how disturbing it was growing up with dad. The older two insist he was always horrible.  I don’t recall it that way, but I suppose they remember mostly the last ten years. Last night they told me they never told me some of the things he said to them because they thought I agreed. Devastating.

My third is, no question about it, riled and despises him. I don’t want that and have gently tried to reroute the thoughts while validating good reasons to be upset and tools to manage. But I can’t direct so will be setting up time with a T.  Kid three has endured the time of him being most dysregulated.

Kid four sees dad as amazing (still on precipice of anything real world) — blissfully unaware of any issues. I have caught a glimmer here or there. Because kid four is still young and doesn’t see it, I worry that this will be hardest on them understanding why the family is not together.

There is a flickering flame of self-love in there that needs to be protected at all costs. You will be surprised how much can flow from that self-respect if you work to preserve it.

I’m working on it. I’m okay being imperfect but my confidence is growing. It is my choice too...it just is.

Here's an article about how to size up your lawyer for a high-conflict divorce: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

If you start a thread asking for advice about questions for the L friends here will be glad to help  

Thank you LNL!  I’m so appreciative of the kind words, show of support and display of reality — all things sorely missing in my life.

[UBPDHelp]

Yes, he should maintain the policies.  About life insurance, I think most companies will not allow a minor to be a direct beneficiary.  What I did on my policies was to list my son this way:  "In trust for {child} pursuant to will dated {date}."  Then my will handled how the assets would be apportioned with a selected trustee.  I'm not sure how you would enforce your ex complying, that may be a question for your lawyer to address.

Be aware that if his life policies are through his work, they may terminate when he leaves that job or retires.  And if it's a term policy then it has an end date and no benefits after that end date.

Good points. There is a policy at work kind of for keeping the business going if he or one of the other owners died, wouldn’t be for family. We have personal term policies that are nearing the end (like 5 years — were for older kids, didn’t update with younger kids) and are getting expensive.

I need about 10-12 years to get the younger two raised, so may need another policy, for a lesser amount.

Thinking of making him show proof it’s paid at every interval. Or, I manage the policy and make him pay for it. Idk. I assume the L would have recommendations.

I cringe a bit when I read a newer member writing about being "very generous" to the problem ex.  Since your ex probably is not as fair as you, you need to be careful not to Gift Away too much since the risk is high your sense of fairness is unlikely to be similarly reciprocated.  My point is that while you may end up with negotiated amounts that are less than the calculations might indicate, you be at that point when you finish negotiations, not from the start.  Does that perspective make sense?  For example, you may use that adjustment in ex's favor as part of your strategy to gain something in another parenting matter that you need more than the full sum of money.

I hear this. I don’t need as much as the calculators say and would definitely agree to less to be done with it. But wouldn’t start there.

Of course, some would depend on his approach.

I need to think about my minimums — support, belongings, custody.

Thanks for ForeverDad!

[GaGrl]

We definitely had term life insurance requirements built into our settlement agreement.

[formflier]

You are getting wonderful advice here!  When is the conversation with the L?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all,

Just a quick update. I spoke to the lawyer. I was extremely nervous because she works in the same county as my H and I can’t help be nervous that H would find out before I’m ready. She assured me that all of our conversations are confidential. We didn’t get to my husband’s name yet to determine if there’s any conflict. That will be soon.

She deals with high conflict divorces, in fact has worked on either side of many L’s getting divorced. She offered a few strategies that I have heard on here re: using rage text messages as leverage for something I want in exchange for not letting his reputation be tarnished by his behavior. Or child custody, etc.

A concern or two I have — she said we might lend to mediation, largely because courts are shut down and he may want to protect his professional reputation. I’m not sure how I feel about this. I know BPDs/NPDs aren’t great candidates for mediation, but he would come across about as bad as someone could without being a true criminal. I’m not sure the desire to preserve his reputation is enough (I think the messages, broken things, etc., would paint a terrible picture personally and professionally). Any thoughts?

I feel it’s a possible negotiating tactic, but also feel it may demonstrate she’s not up to the task. Idk.

The second thing is that her hourly fee is about half what my H charges. She’s family law, he’s a litigator. Idk if that explains the difference or if not, it’s an indication of her ability or lack thereof. I guess I need to see what other family law attorneys charge per hour.

So after the concerns, here are the down sides.

Courts are closed or barely open and there’s a backlog — one reason she said more people are open to mediation.

Since he’s “self employed” and he took a covid hit, this could impact alimony/child support. Anyone hearing the same thing? 

Also because he’s owns his own business, she said it may require a business evaluation. She said that can get expensive 6-10K. But, he may want to avoid going into their books so it could be another negotiating point. Idk.

Re: the inheritance, it’s familial property in our state and even more so because I’ve used some to pay household expenses during covid. I don’t love it, but I can accept this. She also said it could be a tool if he wants something from me (like his last name back).  And she thought because he’s an attorney and he told me to set up a separate account, I may be able to keep more of it.

I asked about “paying” some of it back when he’s bringing home money again. She said technically I could before papers were filed, but that it might p!ss him off.  She instead suggested I pay off familial debt so there’s no headache there. Sounds reasonable to me...thoughts?

She gave me her rate, the rate of her legal assistant (half) and said if I help going through bank state,ents, etc., it can save some time. She estimated, based upon a wide range of hours it would take as being anywhere from 10-25K, plus bus eval and any specialists, etc. So much for having any nest egg when done, especially if he gets half.

She doesn’t think I need to wait based on Covid (future remains uncertain) but also said with my new job it could make sense to make sure that goes well.  I think I’d be more comfortable getting past the initial 90 days. LMK if anyone has thoughts.

She said based on the length of marriage, his higher income, etc., I would be entitled to alimony and child support. How much, no idea.

Actually, I’m open to all input on this. Open to all comments, suggestions. Anything.

Thank you!

[ForeverDad]

We often warn that mediation attempts in the early stages of divorce typically fail in our sort of cases, the ex is still too entitled or controlling.  However, your lawyer is right, he may limit his behaviors if he trys to maintain his public appearance.

Believe it or not, many of us do reach settlements, just later in the divorce process, often just before a major hearing or the trial.  In my case, I arrived at court for my Trial Day, the entire day was reserved for the trial, and was greeted with the news that after she could no longer delay the process - the temp order strongly favored her - she was then ready to settle.  And we did, only took half the day.

Be careful when you do settle, the lawyers will be in a rush to wrap everything up in a bundle and lots of prior issues and asset/debt calcs can get lost in all that action.

[UBPDHelp]

We often warn that mediation attempts in the early stages of divorce typically fail in our sort of cases, the ex is still too entitled or controlling.  However, your lawyer is right, he may limit his behaviors if he trys to maintain his public appearance.

Believe it or not, many of us do reach settlements, just later in the divorce process, often just before a major hearing or the trial.  In my case, I arrived at court for my Trial Day, the entire day was reserved for the trial, and was greeted with the news that after she could no longer delay the process - the temp order strongly favored her - she was then ready to settle.  And we did, only took half the day.

Be careful when you do settle, the lawyers will be in a rush to wrap everything up in a bundle and lots of prior issues and asset/debt calcs can get lost in all that action.

I think mediation might be possible, would be my preference. I’m reasonable, want what I’m entitled to, not looking to punish him or take more than my fair share.  Would rather not spend 10s of thousands on fighting to get to a reasonable point. But, I’m prepared if that’s the route he chooses.

I have my minimums I’ll accept.  I will ensure they are included (maybe not exactly how I want, but that they are).

Thanks ForeverDad.  I feel my resolve is strong but my mental/emotional strength needs rebuilding before proceeding. Four months in quarantine with him and I’m beat.

 

[formflier]

I would hope you could interview several Ls.  That's not to suggest there is anything about this particular L I don't like.  

I would flesh our your "minimums" and have those really tight (in your eyes) and let the Ls look over those.

I would also flesh out "what you want".

It's also important to understand what all the formulas say that you get.

Then you lay all those next to each other and see what things match up and where there are gaps.

Also in this is your expected L bill (realizing that could be in your "want" group for him to cover).

Basically what I'm suggesting is that after L meetings I would hope you have a realistic idea of your life post divorce, a realistic view of "cost of divorce" and a realistic view of "cost of staying put"

Those things are more quantifiable and then you have to mix those together with your "emotional costs" of doing either course of action.

I'm wondering if you have any idea what kind of L your husband is (as in how does he respond to disadvantage, advantage, does he try to settle or does he regularly stack on additional claims).   While we can never know for sure how he would respond to a divorce action, I think you can make some reasonable assumptions based on what you know of him.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I was able to settle 95 percent of our stuff in mediation with n/BPDx. We were in separate rooms, which I requested. There are pros and cons to that but I think it brought out his narcissism. He seemed to want to impress the other lawyers and didn't have to fight as hard to my face because it wasn't there to see 

You can settle the things you can settle, and then leave outstanding items as outstanding. Meaning, "the parties agree to x, y, and z but cannot agree on a, which will default until the matter is heard before a judge." Then my L and I waited a while before we raised issue a before a judge (which for us was sole legal custody), when there was clear documentation that n/BPDx could not handle joint legal, impacting our son's well-being.

The high-conflict part for us didn't really take root until we had to make good on items agreed upon in the initial order. 

He wouldn't refi the house, he wouldn't give me the title to my car, he wouldn't pay off the credit card he was ordered to pay. All the things that were laid out clearly in the mediated order.

The way it worked for us, the mediator wrote up the order in long-hand (after 9 hours of haggling) and then later both parties reviewed what she wrote. Both parties made some revisions and then we went before a judge to have it entered.

Given that your ex has an issue with emotion regulation, he may be feeling one way in mediation, then another when he reviews the doc, then another when he submits revisions, then another when he's in court.

The radical acceptance aspect of this is knowing that things won't go smoothly and using that knowledge to give yourself some advantage. For me, that meant always having hard deadlines with day/date, and natural, reasonable consequences if those deadlines were not met. Lawyers will do this courtesy thing where they offer to write up the order. It costs more if your L does it, but it also allows you some wiggle room to get your language in there, including the natural consequences.

A natural consequence to someone who stonewalls is to transfer the responsibility for getting it done to you.

Most importantly, you don't want the judge to decide on consequences for you because he or she may issue a stern warning and simply say: Get this done. In which case you just spent a couple thousand dollars for your ex to get a second bite of the apple.

For our exes, we need the consequence to be clear as day for two really important reasons. One, so you can act without having to go back to court. And two, if you do go back to court, the judge essentially orders the outcome you want.

[formflier]

Hey UBPDHelp,

Luckily I've never actually gone through this process, but I have prepped for it several times.  I've also watched from the sidelines as my SIL (like my wife but way worse...waaay) went through it.

My BIL (still a good friend) had an acceptable outcome with mediation.  They did the thing where they were in the same place but in separate rooms and mediators went back and forth.  BIL realized going in he wasn't going to get "what he wanted"...but was looking for "acceptable".  

If you choose to proceed, I would encourage you to try this.  

Note:  I have done this type of mediation for other matters and found it worked quite well, even when a settlement wasn't achieved.  Basically it clarified how the other party was looking at things.


Now...since I feel "I know you" from the conflicted boards I've taken the liberty of pointing out some critical things, because I think I have a feel for you and how your pwBPD responds to you.

He wouldn't refi the house, he wouldn't give me the title to my car, he wouldn't pay off the credit card he was ordered to pay. All the things that were laid out clearly in the mediated order.

So, while I don't think your pwBPD will go down this route "full bore", if his emotions get out of whack..he could for a while.  I also think it's unlikely that he will exactly follow the order and will test boundaries..test the order and your willingness to hold him to it.

I'm thinking of "the dish thing" with your pwBPD.  He picked it up (so kinda did what was expected) but then left several more out later (likely to "show you" who was really in charge).

Important point...everything has to be crystal clear "pwBPD to sign over car title within xx days of  this order being signed by all parties."  (but wait..there is more)

"if car title not signed over within xx days of this order being signed, yy will happen and any and all costs and fees associated reimbursed by pwBPD."

See how both parts are very important!


 

Given that your ex has an issue with emotion regulation, he may be feeling one way in mediation, then another when he reviews the doc, then another when he submits revisions, then another when he's in court.

The above will happen.  Be prepared for this.  Don't get drawn into a fight.  If you don't like something...give it time for emotions to change.  Use this knowledge to your advantage!

 For me, that meant always having hard deadlines with day/date, and natural, reasonable consequences if those deadlines were not met.

This is worth repeating...and repeating.  
  

 

 One, so you can act without having to go back to court. And two, if you do go back to court, the judge essentially orders the outcome you want.

And repeating...

Essentially plan for and get an order that "supports the worst outcome" and then when it goes better than that you are ok.  If the worst does show up...you are ready.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Me again  

I wanted to add your L might be really good and not know to do this thing with the built-in consequences.

Because for an L, it's not painful to go back to court. He or she won't naturally be thinking: "The opposing party is going to ignore this order."

Most parties get an order and they follow it.

I say that because your L might be puzzled why you're closing the loop on something that doesn't seem like one, especially in the beginning. You're essentially bringing your own expertise to the table, which is knowing that your ex will not follow the order because of his PD.

Anyway, this is advanced stuff. You have time before this becomes a thing. You'll have an opportunity after mediation and before things get signed and sealed.

During that window is an opportunity to turn to friends here for finger snaps and feedback. It's extra rough when you're going through something high stakes for the first time AND your ex is an attorney. I totally get it. I found great advice from friends here that helped not only with my legal battles but also helped me be a better boss to my lawyer  

[formflier]

You're essentially bringing your own expertise to the table, which is knowing that your ex will not follow the order because of his PD.

From what I've learned about the pwBPD in this case I would be "surprised" if he goes "full bore" like LnLs did.

I also would be "shocked" (yet pleased) if the pwBPD in this case didn't "try something".  Since it will be impossible to predict ahead of time which part of the order will be "challenged", you must..must...make the entire thing "tight".

You have time before this becomes a thing. You'll have an opportunity after mediation and before things get signed and sealed.

Yes there is time but this "mindset" seems very different than the mindset UBPDHelp has had in this relationship for many many years.  (Please don't take this as criticism!)  

It is important for UBPDHelp to know now that there will be a big change in "thinking" and "approach" that will likely feel uncomfortable.  

I think other posters have made the point about "be careful trying to be reasonable" or "deferring" to the other party.  

 better boss to my lawyer  

Very important to realize that the lawyer is the advisor...keep in mind who the boss is.

Best,

FF