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Author Topic: Need help with my wife PART 2  (Read 571 times)
Brooklyn1974
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« on: June 26, 2020, 12:33:56 PM »

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345030.0

Thank you for the advice.  At least my daughter is opening up some to my wife, however my wife's response has been cold.  She's still staying over every night and my daughter told her that's she's tired of worrying about that and asking.  My wife responded 'Just assume that I am staying over every night' and my daughter replied 'No, that's not fair.  Either stay at home or stay at the apt.'  to which my wife had no reply.  

My daughter came to me upset saying my wife was blaming me for everything (which is expected).  I told my daughter it's not about blame, it's about healing.  Not sure about my daughter's recital if my wife is coming, I was able to purchase an extra ticket for my daughter's aunt who she wanted to come in place of her.  I know my daughter is upset but I don't want her to feel guilt if the ticket was given to her aunt instead.

It's just the coldness that I can't stand.  Been reading a lot of BPD material in how they come into a relationship with grand and then along the way they start to devalue the person they are with.  I know that's the place I am at.  I have suspicions she didn't go to her counseling since my daughter was suppose to go in two weeks and when I asked my wife how it went all I got was an 'OK'.  I then asked about our daughter if she thought the counselor was a good fit and her reply was that the counselor never mentioned anything.  The counselor kept telling me that I know her better than anyone and to always use your gut-instinct.  Right now though my instinct is telling me everything negative.  

I'm starting to feel it's hopeless.  When she's usually upset at me it doesn't last.  She actually called her dad and asked if he could take her sister out of the nursing home (who is disabled) and live with her.  Mind you she lives on the second floor and the stairway is very narrow.  Of course her dad said fine but it was her step-mom who said no, that she needs too many doctors and care.  It's this sort of crazy thinking that is going on in her head and her father who is not mentally there is encouraging it.  It's like they feed off each other and I just have to watch the train wreck happen.  It's so upsetting that now I am taking care of this house, my daughter, three dogs and she just ups and pretty much vanishes if not physically, definitely emotionally.  Heck, even the dogs are feeling it, they aren't themselves.  Very mopey.  Last night my daughter said to my wife 'Mom, what is going on?  You are not you'.  It made perfect sense but to my wife.. who knows.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 03:29:45 PM by Harri » Logged
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babyducks
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 07:38:19 AM »

Thank you for the advice.  At least my daughter is opening up some to my wife, however my wife's response has been cold.  She's still staying over every night and my daughter told her that's she's tired of worrying about that and asking.  My wife responded 'Just assume that I am staying over every night' and my daughter replied 'No, that's not fair.  Either stay at home or stay at the apt.'  to which my wife had no reply. 

it sounds like your daughter is acting more like the adult in the family.    there is a phrase for this.   it's called parentification.   it's not fair to your daughter.    she shouldn't be the one establishing boundaries about what is acceptable family behavior.   have you given any thought about this?

I have suspicions she didn't go to her counseling since my daughter was suppose to go in two weeks and when I asked my wife how it went all I got was an 'OK'.  I then asked about our daughter if she thought the counselor was a good fit and her reply was that the counselor never mentioned anything. 

have you asked your wife if she went?   

you mention a lot the type of conversations your daughter is having with your wife.   what kind of conversations are you having with your wife?
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Brooklyn1974
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2020, 10:36:27 AM »

The conversations I have with her are not about us or our future.  I wanted the counselor to talk with her first, since I know I would probably get black lash from my wife.  I talked to her last week about it, telling her I do love her and that the future with us is not like what is was these past three months and that our marriage isn't defined by the last three months.  

If I go off the other end and try to rehash the things she has done, she will just bolt.  These are things I believe the counselor needs to address with her.  

She still has not stayed over night at her place and my daughter is still getting hurt by all of this.  Crying quite a bit.  Hopefully the counselor will see her next week.  My wife seems to have finally noticed when she told me last night that our daughter is having a very hard time with this.  For over two weeks we tried to explain to her how much she is hurting but she either would not reply or she would just tell my daughter it's all dad's fault to which my daughter gets angry and tells her no it's all your lying and I don't trust you.

My wife seems more preoccupied with the pain she is having from her elective surgery she had without telling us a week before she moved out.  

I see the counselor again today, my daughter asked me to look into making her dog an 'emotional support dog'.  My daughter has taken the role of mother to her mom and I have told my wife that above all else this upsets me the most that our daughter loses her childhood over this.  When my daughter asked about how much longer will you have this apartment, my wife replied 'That is up to the counselor'.  I was floored.  Just another attempt to push the can down the road and not step up and be honest.  My daughter had her ballet recital this weekend, my wife missed out on her getting ready because her dad at the last moment called her in the morning and she went to breakfast with him that I guess lasted 4 hours.  My wife just about missed the start of the recital as well coming in as it started.  I asked her a couple of times to please not be late.  Then yesterday my wife promised my daughter to take her to her co-worker's son's birthday party but it didn't happen because my wife was pre-occupied with another event.  It's these types of events that are just stacking on top of each other for my daughter.  My daughter and me have both realized that we cannot depend on her.  

Honestly I believe my wife needs some sort of in-patient therapy.  Part of me is also scared of her.  Last year she physically attacked me bad.  When I told her I would call the police she glared at me and told me to.  Telling me she would mark herself up and say I did it, and she was defending herself.  My side-business I work with the police and told them this.  They told me if they came to the door and saw marks on her that I would be sent to jail.  I then asked about a voice-activated recorder and he told me that if I used that, I could be charged for wire tapping.  So I am basically screwed.  My daughter would be my witness if it happened when she was there but otherwise I am the one being blamed.  

Though when she attacked me she was drunk, even sober she has that capability.  That night when she told us she was moving, the anger in her reminded me back to that night she went after me.  That night when she went after me, all I did was walk through the front door and didn't even say anything.  She just jumped me.

When her mind is like this, there is no telling what she can do.  It's part of the reason why I am trying to work this out, hoping she will get counseling and start to work on her issues.  I have read up on guys that got divorced to BPD women and the stories I read is just plain scary and horrifying.  The one guy mentioned they had 25 guys in a support group that were married to BPDs and 3 of them committed suicide.  I am not thinking of that but there are times when I think of the future it does become depressing especially if she doesn't get counseling.  Without that I know things will only get worse no matter if she keeps this apartment or not.
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babyducks
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 06:45:48 AM »

 I wanted the counselor to talk with her first, since I know I would probably get black lash from my wife.

how do you think that conversation is going to go?   do you sense that your wife will be honest and forthcoming with the counselor?    do you believe the counselor will be able to establish a good relationship with your wife?

 I talked to her last week about it, telling her I do love her and that the future with us is not like what is was these past three months and that our marriage isn't defined by the last three months.  

how do you define your marriage?   how do you want to define your marriage?

If I go off the other end and try to rehash the things she has done, she will just bolt.  These are things I believe the counselor needs to address with her.  

for me, one of the things that happened in my relationship was I became so focused on my partner and her behaviors and actions, that I stopped paying attention to me.   I didn't address what I needed to take care of myself.   how can you get your feelings addressed right now?   

She still has not stayed over night at her place and my daughter is still getting hurt by all of this.  Crying quite a bit.  Hopefully the counselor will see her next week.  My wife seems to have finally noticed when she told me last night that our daughter is having a very hard time with this.  For over two weeks we tried to explain to her how much she is hurting but she either would not reply or she would just tell my daughter it's all dad's fault to which my daughter gets angry and tells her no it's all your lying and I don't trust you. 

how are you helping your daughter right now?

I see the counselor again today, my daughter asked me to look into making her dog an 'emotional support dog'.  

how did your second visit go?

 Last year she physically attacked me bad.  When I told her I would call the police she glared at me and told me to.  Telling me she would mark herself up and say I did it, and she was defending herself.  


My side-business I work with the police and told them this.  They told me if they came to the door and saw marks on her that I would be sent to jail.  I then asked about a voice-activated recorder and he told me that if I used that, I could be charged for wire tapping.  So I am basically screwed.  My daughter would be my witness if it happened when she was there but otherwise I am the one being blamed.  

this is dangerous Brooklyn1974.   it has happened to more than one member here.    have you ever heard of a safety plan?    its a well thought out plan on what to do if violence breaks out.    you come up with it before... when you are calm... with the help of DV people.   It protects you and your wife from having an argument degrade into violence.     typically once violence has occurred it becomes very very difficult to save the relationship.    did you mention this to the counselor?     


'ducks
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Brooklyn1974
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2020, 01:18:00 PM »

Excerpt
how do you think that conversation is going to go?   do you sense that your wife will be honest and forthcoming with the counselor?    do you believe the counselor will be able to establish a good relationship with your wife?

Quite frankly I don't know.  The psychologist was able to see through her.  Our counselor knows that she has BPD and her prior psychologist.  I believe the counselor can establish a good relationship with her, however whether my wife continues to go, I am not sure.

Excerpt
how do you define your marriage?   how do you want to define your marriage?

Excerpt
How I define my marriage now?  It's not much of one.  I am not getting anything I need from her.  How I would like it to be?
For her to work on her issues and use the counselor, instead of me as an emotional punching bag.  To show respect to me and our daughter and want to build a future with us.

Excerpt
for me, one of the things that happened in my relationship was I became so focused on my partner and her behaviors and actions, that I stopped paying attention to me.   I didn't address what I needed to take care of myself.   how can you get your feelings addressed right now?  

I don't know the answer to this question.  I wish I knew.  I wish I could address them and for her to understand.  In the past 3 weeks, I lost 15 pounds.

Excerpt
how are you helping your daughter right now?
Constant communication.  Our counselor is going to meet her, me and her dog at a park on Tuesday.  My daughter had the option for her mom to come with but she didn't want her to.  I asked my counselor how could my wife seem to just turn on our daughter.  She replied that my wife being a BPD, she was probably an awesome mother when our daughter was younger (which she was), however now that our daughter has an opinion and is catching mom in lies and deceit, my wife can't process that in a healthy way.  The counselor said the kitten (my daughter) is now turning into a full grown cat and she believes my wife will continue this behavior unless she gets help.

Excerpt
how did your second visit go?
She was able to put some things in perspective and asked me when was the last time I felt loved by my wife.  That question brought the tears out.  Because honestly I can't remember when.  I can't remember when my wife hugged me, can't even remember the last time she asked me how I was doing.  The counselor asked about intimacy, there is none, though my wife could easily have sex.  The only time we kiss is during sex.  That has even dropped off.  Been months now.  I just don't know why she doesn't want to just get a divorce.  What is she expecting?  Just for me to grovel at her feet and for her to believe her behavior is acceptable?

Excerpt
this is dangerous Brooklyn1974.   it has happened to more than one member here.    have you ever heard of a safety plan?    its a well thought out plan on what to do if violence breaks out.    you come up with it before... when you are calm... with the help of DV people.   It protects you and your wife from having an argument degrade into violence.     typically once violence has occurred it becomes very very difficult to save the relationship.    did you mention this to the counselor?

Yes, she wanted details of that night.  It's why I left when she said those awful things to my daughter, I saw the demon come out.  She agreed that I am basically in a no-win situation.  She asked if I was suicidal, I told her I was not but it's easy to get depressed when you don't seem to have an answer you can safely count on.

I remember two months after my ex-fiancée cheated on me with my best friend, I was going through my mom's old photo album.  Came across a cut-out newspaper article from the 1950s.  The article was about a body they found along the railroad tracks.  The guy had my grandfather's last name.  Asked my mom about this, she told me he was a very good-looking guy with great charisma and a pure gentleman.  The woman he married mentally and emotionally tortured him.  She would even make him bring her a bucket to go to the bathroom in and then make him dump it out.  Well back then divorce was taboo and a social disgrace.  One night he went to the town bar, got extremely drunk and laid himself on the railroad tracks.  My mom back then promised me to never let a woman dictate your own self-worth.  It's what I have held on to these past 16+ years.  Though we have good times together, with her mental illness so much is missing.  







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babyducks
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2020, 06:42:40 AM »

it sounds like you have found a good counselor and had a good productive session.

I noticed this in what you wrote:
For her to work on her issues and use the counselor, instead of me as an emotional punching bag.  To show respect to me and our daughter and want to build a future with us.

you also have a role in this Brooklyn.     You do not have to allow yourself to be treated as an emotional punching bag.     You can establish healthy and reasonable boundaries about disrespectful treatment.    this is a two way street.     its not all on her.   

having a mental illness doesn't give her permission to name call or rage or physically attack you. 

it's your responsibility to establish boundaries around acceptable behavior.

what do you do now when she calls you names or blames you for something?



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Brooklyn1974
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2020, 03:17:17 PM »

What should I do?  I am trying to follow the JADE but when it goes to far I tell her to stop.  She continues her behavior. I took off Thurs and Friday.  Again she's been staying overnight.  Thurs she left at 7:30am to go to her apartment to 'work' and didn't even say bye to our daughter who was still sleeping.  I had to deal with my daughter being upset.  That night my daughter told her she didn't want her to stay overnight and I told my wife maybe it's best you leave since even when you are here it doesn't seem like you are.  She still stayed.

Promised my daughter we had today, Saturday and sunday.  Phone call this morning, instead of spending it with us, she went to a co-workers place to get more furniture.  I told her that I will not accept her coming and going and if she plans on doing this for the foreseeable future I need to make decisions.  Her response was that what I was doing is controlling and I'm not listening.  I told her I understood she was stressed but that I am not making her come back, I am just stating a fact.  She of course got upset, just like the counselor said she would.

She admitted that she didn't do her counseling.  Her friend came over.  So that tells me she is not taking us seriously.  She told me she has counseling the Tues. afternoon.  I take my daughter that morning.  My daughter didn't want her mom to take her though my wife said she should because my daughter is upset at her.  

So it continues.  My wife still is blaming us that she said she wants to live her life to the fullest.  She thinks the small apartment she rents from her ex that she wants to Air BnB it.  Told her that you cannot subrent and her reply was "Well I know the landlord really good".  So that tells me she's hurting for money, I will not pay her bills.  I have mixed emotions of betrayal, anger and sadness.  The more this goes on the more likely this will won't work out.  She's trying to play it off by saying just let things go and see where they land and you and our daughter worry too much about me.

Unbelievable.  All I want is some sort of clarity.  I told her it's confusing for me and our daughter for her to be spending every night here and her reply was 'Just think that the apartment is my work office'.  She is out of touch with reality..
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babyducks
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2020, 08:08:17 AM »

how about you come up with a plan about what you want to do?    how about you come up with a plan that gives you some clarity?

what if your plan looked something like:
for the next 6 months I will commit to working on our relationship, learning communication tools,  understanding what you are dealing with and continue to go to the counselor.     I will work to be a better father, husband, person.    And I would like it if you would commit to the same.


that's just a suggestion of course.

what can you do to make things better for you?
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Brooklyn1974
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2020, 12:48:42 PM »

It just seems no matter what I do, nothing is working.  She basically ditched us Friday and Saturday to get more furniture for her place.  Saturday was a disaster since she changed plans to do this.  My daughter went (which I advised against) but an hour into it, they were at the apartment when the other people came with the stuff.  My daughter called an hour later, they were still there, my daughter pleading with her mom to take her home.  I heard them laughing in the background with my daughter saying the people there were laughing at her because she was crying.  I was furious!  The one woman actually told my daughter that she would be back tomorrow to deliver more.  What a bitch!  My wife stood there and tolerated the whole thing.

The past four days, I told my wife twice not to stay overnight and that there is no reason for her to be here since when she is here she is emotionless and doesn't seem like she even wants to be here. She ignored me both times.  My daughter has taken way too much emotional abuse and it's apparent that my wife can careless.  The longer this goes on the more I feel I need to completely end the marriage.  It's like something has snapped in me.  

I know what I need to do to work on myself, been doing the counseling and seeing her with my daughter tomorrow.  However my wife in this month that she's had this place has not had one session.  She continues to blame her stress on us and to me it's an reasoning for her to continue her behavior.  It's just a combination of everything that has taken it's toll on me.  I don't trust her, every time it seems like I should give her another chance I get burned.  Even simple things such as being at a place at a certain time never happens.  Friday she ditched us to get furniture leaving at noon, telling us she would be at our family's party by 5pm.  She didn't show until 8pm.  No apologies, no regret from her.  

The lies, the lack of any sort of emotion really has me thinking do I want to be married to someone like this anymore.  I told her last night to not stay the night, told her I am giving her what she wants and to let you go.  I meant it.  She sat there in silence like she didn't know what to say.  I said this because it's suppose to hit 100 all week long and my house is 110 years old.  My one dog needs to be in a crate when no one is there and I don't have central air.  The crate is far from the AC so it's warm in that part of the house.  My wife doesn't work in her office yet and she said she was planning on spending the day at her apartment.  My daughter was upset because of her dog.  When my wife said to me 'Oh, you just want me to be a prisoner here', that's when everything changed for me.  I just don't want to do this anymore.  It's confusing to my daughter and I refuse to be chasing someone who's mind is so messed up and won't even entertain the thought that they might be the one with issues.

Sorry for the rant.  I can work on myself everyday but to a person who has BPD it doesn't matter to them.  Can you ever fully trust a BPD spouse?
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Brooklyn1974
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2020, 01:24:43 PM »

Just an update that things continue to go south.  She continues to be emotionless and my daughter is taking harder each day.  She continues to miss times to pick my daughter up and when I intervene (for my daughter) my wife continues to tell me and her that we are trying to control her.  I told her last night that if she does not love me then to let me go, to leave and stay overnight at your place.  It's been a month now and I still get the cold shoulder.  She has been told by me and our daughter to not stay overnight yet she continues to.  Is that the fear of abandonment?

I don't know what to do anymore, my counselor sees me and her not until the 23rd (the counselor took a week off) and it's apparent my wife has continued plans to be at that apartment for the future.  I continue to do all the housework and she continues to just trash it in the sense that she won't even pick up after herself.  I told her I cannot continue this way that she either gives me something to work off of or to just leave.  I get silence in return.

I've been keeping my daughter busy but her anxiety and sadness is getting worse.  My wife refuses to talk about any sort of feelings with herself or our daughter and just tells me 'this is part of the reason why I left'.  Though I try to talk to her about it's our daughter's reaction to the whole situation it's like talking to the wall. 

Is there any thing I can say or do that can get my wife to even think about the hurt she has caused?  If I can't then I feel there is no hope left in this marriage.  I have a feeling that others are influencing her either her father, ex-bf or co-workers who only know 'her' side of the story.  She can be extremely charming when need be. 

I've had discussions with my daughter about letting her go and to start focusing on short-term goals and on things that would make you happy, however it's no substitute for a mother who is gone at least emotionally.  My wife keeps on saying 'I am not dead' but in a sense she is.  For the longest time she would mention that she's in 'survival mode' and perhaps that is a BPD thing, I am not sure.  I am just looking for some advice again. 
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2020, 08:00:03 AM »

I was hoping babyducks or someone that has experience with BPDs can help me.  My wife is still spending every night at the house but is cold and distant to me.  I do all the housework (she will do laundry now and then) but also continues to argue and be cold to our daughter.  My daughter gets frustrated about her apartment and her second phone and my wife flips out when my daughter brings this up, which upsets my daughter and then screams and cries.

She's had this apartment for a month and a half.  Last night things got the best of me and I talked to my wife.  I asked her if she had any feelings for me left and her response was to say 'I am pushing you away', asking her why she wouldn't tell me and got upset.  I told her that I love her and that I would never abandon her and she said I am smothering her.  How?  I don't know, since I don't bring up the apartment, her second phone, etc.. 

So I told her that it's best she starts staying at her place overnight and her response was that I was being controlling.  I responded by saying perhaps you are afraid of losing control?  I told her it hurts and it's confusing to see her every night and the weekend but doesn't even ask me how I am doing.  I haven't gotten a hug from her in years.  I mentioned to her if she gave me some affection that you would see a more relaxed me. 

Was this the right thing?  We have our first couples therapy on Thursday.  I went twice, she went once and so did my daughter.  My goal is for her to want to be back with us to not play the blame game and focus on healing.  My daughter told her to leave and that one morning you will wake up and realize what you did and want to come back but it might be too late.  My wife didn't have a response to that.  The relationship between those two used to be so extremely close and now it's so cold and distant.  Please, any advice?
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2020, 09:26:50 AM »

I apologize for the late reply Brooklyn.

a couple of thoughts...  first for anyone following along... let's talk about JADE for a minute.    JADE stands for Justify Argue Defend and Explain.    You want to be careful to limit your Justifying, Arguing, Defending and Explaining to what is necessary only for clarity.    In other words explain yourself once... but if you find yourself in an endless loop of JADEing you want to stop, end the conversation and walk away.    the reason you want to stop is by constantly covering the same ground, the same topic over and over you are only adding emotion to the conversation not understanding.

Last night things got the best of me and I talked to my wife.  I asked her if she had any feelings for me left and her response was to say 'I am pushing you away', asking her why she wouldn't tell me and got upset.  I told her that I love her and that I would never abandon her and she said I am smothering her.  How?  I don't know, since I don't bring up the apartment, her second phone, etc.. 

 a couple of thoughts here.   first -   if you want to have an emotional/relationship conversation with your wife try try try to do it when you are calm, and certain of what your message is.    not coming out of a place of frustration or upset yourself.    I know this is very hard to do.   

she said she is pushing you away and you responded that you love her and you would never abandon her.    Can you see how this is invalidating to her?   I am sure you meant this to be reassuring.     but that isn't how it came across to her.   she probably heard this more as 'what you feel is wrong'  and 'what I feel is better/right'.   

most people confuse validation.   they think it means agreeing with or accepting.   at the basic level it means acknowledging.    "Yes I can see you are pushing me away.    I would like to talk about that if you can?"

She could feel smothered because her feelings are overwhelming to her, and she can't find a way to express them and get them acknowledged.    People with BPD fear engulfment.    it's the opposite of abandonment.    it's a complicated BPD symptom.       Have you heard of it?

She could be turning off her emotions - being cold and distant because she is overwhelmed.     She is having trouble processing her emotions.    Smothering, Controlling... those kinds of messages usually speak to BPD sliding into dissociation.      again this is a complicated BPD symptom.     very simply it works like this.   pwBPD have highly intense painful intense emotions... when they become to much to handle the emotional system starts to shut down.   it's not a deliberate decision.    I would compare it to ... when you run 5 miles... by the time you get to the 5th mile your body isn't functioning as well as when you started.    your body is starting to protect itself by turning things off or down.

does this make sense?

'ducks

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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2020, 09:40:54 AM »

Yes it does.  Thank you.  Wish I had you by my side last night.  Is there something I should say to her today or just be quiet?  She has been messaging me about our daughter but nothing about us.  Is it too late to validate her emotions? 
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2020, 09:51:33 AM »

pwBPD do better in a highly validating environment.    Validation is a skill.   Like playing the piano.   You practice and start small.   

it's not too late to validate but you want to keep it current.     She is texting with your daughter but keeping appropriate boundaries.   You can validate that ...   

questions can be validating... "you are texting with daughter today...   do you think that is going okay?"

if she responds just say something simple, be mindful of overloading her already stressed emotions,   stay neutral and mildly positive...   

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281066.0

this is from the workshop section of this website.    it talks about engulfment...

the workshop section goes into more detail than I can cover here.   I hope you visit.

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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2020, 09:59:35 AM »

Thank you.  I read what you posted and your link.  So if she's in fear of engulfment by me telling her to stay overnight at her place how would she interpret that? 

I watched the 'Don't walk on eggshells' video and read most of the lessons but it's so difficult to remember it all especially in the 'heat of the moment'.  Honestly this was the first time I mentioned about her feelings towards me and I should have known better.    If she does actually not come over during the evenings/weekends I believe the best course of action is to not contact her right?  This is just so frustrating.
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2020, 10:21:12 AM »

everyone has some fear of engulfment and some fear of abandonment in them.   you do.   I do.    everyone does.    with pwBPD they tend to feel it more strongly and have poor coping skills to deal with it.

fearing engulfment can look like this:    "he doesn't really care for me.   he doesn't really know me at all.    he just wants me to be what he needs to make him happy.   I have to give up everything I want,  I have to give up what would make me happy."

I know this is very frustrating.    You have to hold many difficult some times contradictory  ideas in your head at the same time.    You want to figure out what is best for you,  what is best for you daughter.    You want your wife to be able to communicate with you and your daughter.    You want some action while your wife is treading water.   that's a lot to balance.

Telling her to stay overnight at the apartment as a way to force a decision,  as a way to manufacture certainty will probably not be as productive as you hope.      pwBPD have poor problems solving skills especially at times of stress.   from what you write I am guessing she isn't able to make decisions right now.

she could be looking at 'stay overnight at your place' as controlling depending on how you phrased it... she could see it as forcing her to make decisions.    that isn't to suggest this is fair to you.    it's not.    it's that balancing act of expressing what you want/need, in ways she can understand and tolerate, while respecting her thoughts and feelings are different...   that's a lot to juggle.

'ducks
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2020, 10:26:37 AM »

She mentioned that I was being controlling when I told her about staying overnight at her place.  Any suggestion what I should say to her about this? 
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2020, 10:37:12 AM »

She mentioned that I was being controlling when I told her about staying overnight at her place.  Any suggestion what I should say to her about this? 

it would depend on what you want Brooklyn, and what you are thinking.

do you want her to stay at the apartment so you can begin to process the end of the relationship?   

do you want stay at the apartment hoping that she will hate it and come home?

do you want a couple of nights and peace and quiet to think?

why do you want her to stay at the apartment and what do you think that will bring to you and your daughter?

I want to say that there isn't any right/wrong answer to this.   it really does boil down to what you want and feel.    but it is important to be certain it is what you want/feel.    that you are clear and confident in the direction you are taking and how it reflects what you think/want.

make sense?

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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2020, 10:40:35 AM »

It does make sense. 

I want her to feel wanted and to not feel engulfed or abandoned.  I honestly make an effort not to try to be either of those.  I do want her there but want her to be warmer to us.  Do I give her an option to stay?  My daughter is at my folks with her friend today and I told her yesterday that I would get them after work, when she said she would.  To be honest I was pretty direct with her last night it was just the emotions of not feeling loved.  Remember I haven't had a hug from her in years. 
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2020, 10:59:57 AM »

I want her to feel wanted and to not feel engulfed or abandoned.  

I get it Brooklyn, I really do.    Still you can't control, change or fix what she feels.   That's up to her.

If you want her to stay,... you can give her the option in a way that feels reasonable to you.    You want to be consistent with your message.    You do not want to say one day "go to the apartment"  and the next day "stay here".   that would be confusing for anyone.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

you need to put the very hard work and effort in to figure out what you want, what you will tolerate in terms of behavior, and how to express those messages.

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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2020, 12:20:00 PM »

It's hard not to want to fix the one you love.  I know we all need improvements but it's like watching a train running down the track and you see the track broken and know it's going to derail but nothing you can do to stop it.

Honestly it's very hard for me to think about myself.  I know, it's pathetic.  I don't put my self-worth into her (at least I don't think I do) but when I was engaged before to someone else and she cheated on me with my best friend (we were suppose to get married that year) I took it very hard.  I was suicidal.  The Dr. just wanted to shove paxil in me which made things so much worse.  It took me a year of self-reflection to get back to me.  I was single for 3-4 years but every time I dated someone they wanted to sleep with me on the first or second date.  At first it was an ego boost but then I realized none of these women wanted to really get to know me.  It was disheartening and left me with a hollow feeling.

My wife and I were best friends for a year and honestly thought I knew her inside and out but things changed when she moved in.  I attributed to her moving in, graduating college (she went back and graduated at 26) and starting a new job along with the wedding plans.  Proposed in February and she wanted to get married in August.  Little did I know all the emotional dysfunction underneath.

As for today, I promised my daughter I would go home for lunch to check on the dogs, I don't have central air and it's like 100 degrees here.  Never did I think my wife would still be at the house but she was.  Figured she would have taken the rest of her stuff out of the house like she said this morning.  However she was there, she didn't take anything else out and was acting like nothing happened from last night and this morning.  I didn't say anything I figured I would let the counselor talk about it on Thursday.  I emailed my counselor and she confirmed that it's upsetting and confusing but she can't give direct advice.  She said her role is for us to learn to communicate more clearly so we can figure out what we need from each other.  She doesn't have expertise in BPD so that is worrying.  I don't know how Thursday is going to go, she really hasn't given us much advice even for our daughter except to keep her busy so she's not dwelling on the situation.

I just want to live a happy life, I know about BPD but part of me just wants to say 'Life is complicated enough, it shouldn't be this hard to be happy with someone you love'.  Thank you for letting me vent and giving me excellent advice.  So grateful for you.
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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2020, 06:19:07 AM »

It's hard not to want to fix the one you love.  

hmmm,  I'm not sure about this Brooklyn.    it might be hard but I have to wonder if it is fair?    I think there is some balance between being caring of... and being caring for.     


Honestly it's very hard for me to think about myself.  I know, it's pathetic.  

most of us share this characteristic.    we are way too willing to put ourselves second.   and we always think we have good reasons to do so.   and yet it bites us in the butt over and over.     what can you do today to take better care of yourself?    just for today?

   I emailed my counselor and she confirmed that it's upsetting and confusing but she can't give direct advice.  She said her role is for us to learn to communicate more clearly so we can figure out what we need from each other.  

most couples counseling works from the idea that both parties are willing to try and resolve issues.    and that both parties are equally invested.     when there is abuse involved this is harder to make happen.

she is right about not giving direct advice.    she can help coach you to identify what you think is the best thing to do ... she can't tell you to take one course of action or another.    it's more like helping you find things within yourself.

'ducks
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2020, 07:11:24 AM »

babyducks going to need some advice again.  Wish you were our counselor.  We had our first counseling session yesterday.  My wife did it by video at work, surprised she even joined and talked.

I left more confused then coming in and the counselor was basically awe struck.  I let my wife do most of the talking since the counselor asked me what I wanted from this session before we called my wife.  I told her I wanted clarity and let her do most of the talking since I am not getting any answers from her.

Long story short she wants a 'break' in the marriage/relationship however she wants to focus on 'my' house (bought it before we got married) the dogs and our daughter.  Asking her what she means by this she doesn't want any affection, no 'I love you' basically platonic.  This is very difficult for me and I told her this.  My wife didn't seem to care, she was playing the victim.  Telling us she wants her independence and she needs structure and wants to keep busy.  She seemed to have no care that this was hurting me and saying our daughter sees me upset so then she gets upset.  Like I should be ok with this all?

I left and didn't text or call her, my daughter tried calling her but no answer at first.  My daughter kept asking how the session went and all I said was that mom is still confused.  My daughter finally got her on the phone and I guess my wife asked my daughter if I wanted her to come over for the night.  I really didn't.  I mean I just basically heard my wife tell me 2 hours prior that she doesn't love me.  I told my daughter 'I don't know' and my daughter started crying hard while on the phone with my wife.  It hurts a lot to see my daughter this way so I relented.  My wife told my daughter she would be there by 8pm (this was around 6:45).  8pm went, no wife, 8:30, no wife.  Not until about 9:30. During this time my wife was not picking up her phone or responding to texts my daughter was sending. I texted my wife that if you are going to be late our daughter has major anxiety and believes she is up to something and our daughter needs to be a priority and be treated better.

My wife came in and was upset because I didn't want her there.  She kept asking me why.  I mean, really?  So I had a private talk with her and told her that this is too hard for me.  18 years and reverted to being a friend?  During this talk she was going back and forth and first saying 'I am being consistent and you're not.  That I need a break.'  Well if you want a break then why spend time at the house?  She classifies the house as a prison because she's still 'working from home' due to covid.  She finally went back this week for 3 days a week then told right before our counseling session that it's been scaled back to one day.  

She kept saying she was 'done' and I asked her 'Have you ever sat me down and talked to me about what was bothering you before you got to that point?' and her response was 'Why would I do that?'  I was dumbfounded.  She then said she would rather see me happy with someone else than struggle with her.  It's like she is trying everything in the world to either end it or push me so far away that she can justify what she's doing.  All I know is that I can't live like this.  She kept blaming me for everything, even for a part-time job she wanted at a convivence store 5 years ago in which I told her I didn't think that was a good idea because of our young daughter and that they could be putting her on 3rd shift.  She was also drinking heavily during that time.  Yet if I try to talk about past things she has done that involved me to show her I was always there to support her, her response is always 'I don't want to talk about the past'.  

Am I so devalued that there is no hope?  She said that the apartment was suppose to be for a month so she could get peace but there has been none.  Well, honestly did she think everything would be roses?  That my daughter would be ok with this?  When those two would get into arguments my wife would always threaten to leave and my daughter would push herself against the door or try to take her keys.  I was always the referee.  So when she did leave that night, she made my daughter's worst fear come true.  She also admitted to me that her ex-bf comes over every two-weeks to collect the rent.  I asked her why can't you just mail it?  Her reply 'He does this to everyone, he doesn't want his tenants knowing his address'.  Such a BS answer.  

Do you have any advice for me?  The counselor really couldn't give any except tell my wife that I have a choice in this too and at some point I will call it done.  I've been reading about limits and when I told her last night my limit was 'If you are going to be late then please let your daughter know'  If you can't let her know then you won't be allowed at the house so late at night.  My wife's response 'I am late to everything and that will never change.  If need be I will just give her a later time then what I am expecting to be there for her'.  She's not giving me anything to work off of.  She tells me she's not cheating and that it's 'business' with her ex, but honestly I don't believe that especially since she tried to convince me before nothing was going on the other two times she cheated.

It's getting depressing.  This is very hard for me since I am naturally an affectionate person and I need love in my life.  I know by telling my wife to stay away it's going to make my daughter hate me since she refuses to go to my wife's apartment.  I am in a no-win situation.  It hurts very bad.
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2020, 07:48:33 AM »

babyducks I need your advice again.

We have counseling this afternoon again.  My wife has still been distant to me and my daughter is still having issues with the whole situation.  My daughter had a melt-down on Friday and Saturday night towards my wife.  She continues to believe her mom is still not telling us the truth in regards to her ex-bf. 

I cannot keep acting like 'just friends' with her.  It's hurting me inside so much.  My wife is already running in money issues which I will not help with.  In regards to her and me, is it advisable to tell her today that if she continues to want a break in the marriage and/or doesn't love me to just end it?  She continues to stay overnight at our house and during the weekends.  She basically uses her apartment as an office.  She still has her second phone and refuses to even bring it into the house.  I don't bring up the relationship or her ex or her second phone.  I figure at counseling is the best way to approach it.  I asked her last night if anything has changed since the last session between us and she didn't want to talk about it, so I figure nothing has changed. 

I just don't want to sit silent while she continues to have contact with her ex-bf.  Do I just sit back and watch everything unfold?  When I asked the counselor this her response was that I know her best and to follow that advice from within'.  However this is extremely confusing.  My goal continues to be her wanting to want to be with us and to show love and affection.  It's been two months since she has 'moved out' if you call it that.  I have taken your advice and to not talk to her when my emotions are high or my anxiety is kicking in.  I've also been doing a lot of reading and watching BPD lectures on YouTube to get more insight. 

My daughter wants me to ask 'tough questions' today towards my wife (her mom) because she wants resolution.  I don't blame her, it's been very difficult for us.  Any advice on how to approach today's counseling?
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