Filed for divorce Part 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345653.0;all

how are you doing stolencrumbs?    how are things going?

It's been a long week or so. I don't think the details really matter. More of the same. She sent more group texts to my family one night. Another night she drove around with all of her pills telling me she was going to take them all. She drove around because she didn't trust that I wouldn't come over and stop her or call the police to come over. She eventually came back home. And the push/manipulation to come back home is neverending. She tells me it's just the right thing to do. That I am her husband. That we need to be a team. That her sister just died. That the pandemic is bad and I shouldn't be living on campus. And then there are all the threats, which she steadfastly refuses to admit are threats.

It's all exhausting, though the last couple of days have been relatively quiet. And it's amazing how much better I feel when I get even a couple of days without having to go over there and without overt threats and hours-long meltdowns.

I told my lawyer on Friday to serve the papers next week. I guess that gives me a couple of days to tell my wife that is what is happening. I appreciate everyone's comments. There's a lot to think about with respect to me, and why I keep doing this, why I have stayed in this, why it's so hard to leave, etc.

At the moment, I'm just worried about telling her that I am moving forward with the divorce. There's a lot I feel like I could say, but I also feel like there isn't really anything more that needs to be said other than that I am moving forward with the divorce. Talking about it never helps anything, even though that is what she is going to want me to do. I'm trying to come up with something simple and concise to say that is not inflammatory, though that's probably a pipe dream. My desire to JADE here is strong. Even after all of these years, I still have some hope that there's a reasonable person in there somewhere who will understand why I'm doing what I'm doing.

[stolencrumbs]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345653.0;all

how are you doing stolencrumbs?    how are things going?

It's been a long week or so. I don't think the details really matter. More of the same. She sent more group texts to my family one night. Another night she drove around with all of her pills telling me she was going to take them all. She drove around because she didn't trust that I wouldn't come over and stop her or call the police to come over. She eventually came back home. And the push/manipulation to come back home is neverending. She tells me it's just the right thing to do. That I am her husband. That we need to be a team. That her sister just died. That the pandemic is bad and I shouldn't be living on campus. And then there are all the threats, which she steadfastly refuses to admit are threats.

It's all exhausting, though the last couple of days have been relatively quiet. And it's amazing how much better I feel when I get even a couple of days without having to go over there and without overt threats and hours-long meltdowns.

I told my lawyer on Friday to serve the papers next week. I guess that gives me a couple of days to tell my wife that is what is happening. I appreciate everyone's comments. There's a lot to think about with respect to me, and why I keep doing this, why I have stayed in this, why it's so hard to leave, etc.

At the moment, I'm just worried about telling her that I am moving forward with the divorce. There's a lot I feel like I could say, but I also feel like there isn't really anything more that needs to be said other than that I am moving forward with the divorce. Talking about it never helps anything, even though that is what she is going to want me to do. I'm trying to come up with something simple and concise to say that is not inflammatory, though that's probably a pipe dream. My desire to JADE here is strong. Even after all of these years, I still have some hope that there's a reasonable person in there somewhere who will understand why I'm doing what I'm doing.

[formflier]

  but I also feel like there isn't really anything more that needs to be said other than that I am moving forward with the divorce. 

Is this really needed? 

Will she be surprised at service?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Is this really needed? 

Will she be surprised at service?

Best,

FF

Yes, I think she will be. I don't think she should be, but she will be. And not telling her that it's happening would give her one more thing to beat me over the head with. 

[Cat Familiar]

And not telling her that it's happening would give her one more thing to beat me over the head with. 

This is a telling sentence. I’m not sure exactly what it is telling, but you know.

To deconstruct it, you let her “beat (you) over the head.” That phrase makes me think that you’ve tolerated her verbal abuse for a long time.

And it makes sense. You’ve been trying to keep her from harming herself for many years, so you’ve allowed her to harm you instead.

One thing I learned in my divorce with a high conflict suicidal person was that there was no way I’d ever be regarded in a positive light for initiating the divorce. I had to let go of wanting to be seen as a good person, because that was never going to happen. For that matter, I discovered that he was badmouthing me to anyone who would listen.

I think you will have to come to terms with letting go of the rescuer side of your personality. You cannot rescue her. You’ve given it your best for many years.

There will undoubtedly be a void since you’ve devoted so much time and energy to that. Perhaps it’s time to rescue yourself.

[formflier]

And not telling her that it's happening would give her one more thing to beat me over the head with. 

Hey Stolen Crumbs...remember, I'm on your side.  Several questions.

But you've told her.  Is that statement correct...she does no you intend to divorce her..right?

What if you tell her and the service shows up early...or late..or...

Does she give you the same courtesy you give her?

Again...will this be a surprise to her...yes or no?

If you do tell her, are you saying she won't beat you over the head?

The purpose of the divorce is to remove your heard from the chopping/beating block.  Why not do that now?

Will you remove it after the papers are served?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Hey Stolen Crumbs...remember, I'm on your side.  Several questions.

But you've told her.  Is that statement correct...she does no you intend to divorce her..right?

What if you tell her and the service shows up early...or late..or...

Does she give you the same courtesy you give her?

Again...will this be a surprise to her...yes or no?

If you do tell her, are you saying she won't beat you over the head?

The purpose of the divorce is to remove your heard from the chopping/beating block.  Why not do that now?

Will you remove it after the papers are served?

Best,

FF

Yes. She knows the divorce papers have been filed. She also knows I asked my lawyer to not serve the papers immediately. We haven't had any conversation about it since her sister died two weeks ago. So I think being served would come as a surprise to her.

No, she doesn't and wouldn't give me the same courtesy, but that seems like a dangerous principle to operate under. That she wouldn't do it doesn't mean that I shouldn't.

And sure, she's going to beat me over the head. But it won't be because I didn't "show up" and because I was conducting our life "on a screen." I guess I feel some obligation to have this conversation and to have it in person.

I think removing my head from the block is going to be a process. And I think Cat is right about giving on being the good guy here. She's obviously not going to see it that way. I definitely need to get more comfortable with that. My T has been telling me that for a very long time.

[formflier]

Gotcha on what your T has been saying. Are you able to take that to heart and act on it?

What has your L been saying about spending time with your wife? 

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

It's all exhausting, though the last couple of days have been relatively quiet. And it's amazing how much better I feel when I get even a couple of days without having to go over there and without overt threats and hours-long meltdowns.

As I read your post stolencrumbs I am forcibly reminded of a truism I have often seen ForverDad post on the legal board.

If allegations have been contemplated or threatened, then they will happen, given enough time.

a month ago your wife was making allegations of physical abuse.   and sharing them with your family and your employer.    jeopardizing your job, your reputation, your career.   the idea of you being alone with her, and going over there feels dangerous to me.    what protects you from these allegations?  what steps are you taking to keep yourself safe?  how are you protecting yourself?  in what ways are you taking care of yourself?

There's a lot to think about with respect to me, and why I keep doing this, why I have stayed in this, why it's so hard to leave, etc.

if it were me,   trying to put myself in your shoes,.. I think I would be exhausted, depressed,  fearful and conditioned.    maybe not in that order.    

the conditioning around she has a meltdown and you go defuse the situation seems particularly strong to me.    would you agree?    think I am full of  ?

it seems very difficult to even contemplate the idea that you are not required to treat her with kid gloves.   that is a 'dangerous principle to operate under'.    let me be clear.   no one here is going to advocate that you treat her meanly or cruelly.   what we are going to advocate for is for you to put yourself first.   your safety, your exhaustion,... your freedom.

You want her to wake up and understand your point of view... to recognize why you are doing what you are doing.   Trust me I get that desire.   I can see its a strong desire.   I can see how that would be the healthier thing for both of you.   What I can't see is how this will ever happen.     I've never read anything that you presented here that makes me think she identifies you as a separate individual with your own wants/needs/feelings with the right to make your own decisions and choices.

It seems you stay because you want to be the good/kind guy,  because you want your wife to be healthy, because you put your needs second, because you define yourself around or through her.       All things I can understand.    All things I have experienced even if not to the heightened degree that you experience them.

can I ask you?   what could you do to manage your own feelings of obligation to have the next divorce conversation in person?   how can you shoulder the responsibility of making good decisions for yourself?

respectfully
'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

As I read your post stolencrumbs I am forcibly reminded of a truism I have often seen ForverDad post on the legal board.

If allegations have been contemplated or threatened, then they will happen, given enough time.

a month ago your wife was making allegations of physical abuse.   and sharing them with your family and your employer.    jeopardizing your job, your reputation, your career.   the idea of you being alone with her, and going over there feels dangerous to me.    what protects you from these allegations?  what steps are you taking to keep yourself safe?  how are you protecting yourself?  in what ways are you taking care of yourself?

I don't know. I am probably not treating it as seriously as I should. Not that it really matters, but she did not specifically make those allegations to my boss. It was much more vague about me not being who they think I am. She did make them to my family. And it is scary that she could make them to others. She has threatened to tell the police that if I call them when she is threatening to kill herself. So I do take it seriously. I don't actually think she would follow through with any false allegations. She does these things when she's drunk, and I don't think she'd follow through with lying to people about it in the sober light of day. But I'm not *that* confident of that. I do have plenty of recordings of her making these threats, of her explaining what she claims she meant with the initial allegation, and generally of her being out of control and threatening. And I have the fact that I've never touched her on my side, which if it ever gets to that point, will hopefully matter.

if it were me,   trying to put myself in your shoes,.. I think I would be exhausted, depressed,  fearful and conditioned.    maybe not in that order.    

the conditioning around she has a meltdown and you go defuse the situation seems particularly strong to me.    would you agree?    think I am full of  ?

No, that sounds right. I haven't really thought of it as conditioning, but that seems accurate. And yes, the idea that I can not answer the phone calls, or not read the texts, or not read the emails seems wholly foreign to me. I'm better at not responding and not always going over there, but I don't think I've ever really just ignored a meltdown in progress. That's when fear comes into play. I am scared of what she will do. Being "ignored" definitely escalates things for her.

it seems very difficult to even contemplate the idea that you are not required to treat her with kid gloves.   that is a 'dangerous principle to operate under'.    let me be clear.   no one here is going to advocate that you treat her meanly or cruelly.   what we are going to advocate for is for you to put yourself first.   your safety, your exhaustion,... your freedom.

You want her to wake up and understand your point of view... to recognize why you are doing what you are doing.   Trust me I get that desire.   I can see its a strong desire.   I can see how that would be the healthier thing for both of you.   What I can't see is how this will ever happen.     I've never read anything that you presented here that makes me think she identifies you as a separate individual with your own wants/needs/feelings with the right to make your own decisions and choices.

I agree. I don't think there's any chance this happens. She's not going to see my point of view. She's not going to suddenly see me as a separate person who gets to make his own decisions. I know that. I'm not sure what keeps compelling me to try.

It seems you stay because you want to be the good/kind guy,  because you want your wife to be healthy, because you put your needs second, because you define yourself around or through her.       All things I can understand.    All things I have experienced even if not to the heightened degree that you experience them.

At this point, I think I am mainly acting out of fear. She has said a number of times that I don't know what she's capable of. That I don't want to see what happens when all good will is gone. That she doesn't care if she lives or dies, and that's a dangerous person to mess with. Etc. That all scares me. I do want her to be healthy, but I don't think I am helping her in that regard. I don't think I am actually the bad guy, and I am much more comfortable with her thinking that I am the bad guy. I definitely put my needs second, and I always have. I do still struggle with that. People tell me I've done everything I can do, and I think "no, I haven't." I could go back home. That's what she's asking for. I could do that. And I could live that life. I'd be okay. I'd be sacrificing what I want again, and not pursuing things that are healthy for me, and not doing what I want to be doing with my life, but I could just go back home. And I think that would be better for her in the short term, and things would be more calm for some period of time. I could do that. I don't want to do that. I'm not going to do that. But the idea that I could continue to sacrifice what is best for me in order to try to help her is still pretty powerful.

can I ask you?   what could you do to manage your own feelings of obligation to have the next divorce conversation in person?   how can you shoulder the responsibility of making good decisions for yourself?

Too late for this specific thing. I went over on Saturday and had this conversation with her. It was okay while I was there, though there was a mini drunken meltdown after I left. I told her I was moving forward with the divorce, and she gave me all the reasons why I shouldn't, why it's not the right thing to do, how much better it would be if I just came home for six months, and how bad everything is going to be if I move forward, and how she is not going to survive it all. But I have told her and at least feel like I have discharged that obligation. The papers will be served some time this week. I'm just trying to prepare for the fallout now.  

[Cat Familiar]

Please do everything you can to stay safe and follow the advice of your attorney.

[formflier]

Please do everything you can to stay safe and follow the advice of your attorney.

What is the advice of your attorney regarding your safety?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I don't know. I am probably not treating it as seriously as I should. Not that it really matters, but she did not specifically make those allegations to my boss. It was much more vague about me not being who they think I am. She did make them to my family. And it is scary that she could make them to others. She has threatened to tell the police that if I call them when she is threatening to kill herself. So I do take it seriously.

Where are your personal boundaries around this stolencrumbs?    I'm working to get some sense of where your boundaries are,.. and why.    Your wife has expanded her verbal and emotional abuse to include other people... your family, your boss, your sister in law,... your sister in law's boss.    where are your boundaries?    when does this become the line that can not be crossed?

I don't actually think she would follow through with any false allegations. She does these things when she's drunk, and I don't think she'd follow through with lying to people about it in the sober light of day. But I'm not *that* confident of that.

She has threatened to burn the house down.  She has threatened to turn the dogs loose to run in traffic.   She has threatened to charge you with domestic/physical abuse.    She has threatened to end her life.    but it sounds like you are telling me that's okay because she doesn't actually follow completely through.   She only burnt a rug.   She has only shared the physical abuse allegation with some people.   Oh my SC.    can we call this what it is?   it isn't "so it's a normal Wednesday" at the Crumbs.   This is emotional and verbal abuse.   It coercion, compulsion, duress, and intimidation.   Its a deeply unhealthy way of relating.    It's abnormal.    Its damaging.     I am going to say that it doesn't matter if she follows through on the threats or not.   This is a deeply deeply dysfunctional way of having a relationship.

No, that sounds right. I haven't really thought of it as conditioning, but that seems accurate. And yes, the idea that I can not answer the phone calls, or not read the texts, or not read the emails seems wholly foreign to me. I'm better at not responding and not always going over there, but I don't think I've ever really just ignored a meltdown in progress. That's when fear comes into play. I am scared of what she will do. Being "ignored" definitely escalates things for her.

so how is this going to work for you when she gets served with the papers?   she's going to meltdown.   and you are going to go over there to do what?  and are you going to keep doing this through the divorce process?  I recall your lawyer being pretty clear.   Stay away.   don't put yourself at risk.    from my perspective this is a horrible mixed message SC.   I am divorcing you but here I come to help defuse you.    how is that fair to either her or you?

it seems to me that at some point you will need to detach from these messages,   you will need to detach from the meltdowns.   what would be the first step for you to detach?   have you considered changing phone numbers?    changing email addresses?    could you add a second phone that would be your common every day phone and turn off the one she has the number too?     what would stop you from doing that?   what would begin to break this conditioning?

At this point, I think I am mainly acting out of fear. She has said a number of times that I don't know what she's capable of. That I don't want to see what happens when all good will is gone. That she doesn't care if she lives or dies, and that's a dangerous person to mess with. Etc. That all scares me.

that scares me too.    I think your wife is a lot more capable of acting on her threats then you seem to credit.   still dealing with your fear by defusing her behavior hasn't proven to be a win/win.    it seems to have prolonged the dysregulation.   it has kept both of you stuck in this painful situation.

People tell me I've done everything I can do, and I think "no, I haven't." I could go back home. That's what she's asking for. I could do that. And I could live that life. I'd be okay. I'd be sacrificing what I want again, and not pursuing things that are healthy for me, and not doing what I want to be doing with my life, but I could just go back home. And I think that would be better for her in the short term, and things would be more calm for some period of time. I could do that. I don't want to do that. I'm not going to do that. But the idea that I could continue to sacrifice what is best for me in order to try to help her is still pretty powerful.

I would disagree with you here SC.   I don't think you could actually do that.   I don't think you could actually live that life because she would continue with her severe expression of her illness.  you would be living at home but sleeping in your truck again... because she took a hammer to the kitchen.   Sacrificing what is best for you seems to be a deeply engrained idea.    Where do you think that comes from?    and why is okay to put yourself at risk for emotional abuse? 

respectfully
'ducks

[formflier]

  it seems to have prolonged the dysregulation.   it has kept both of you stuck in this painful situation. 

This seems to distill it down.

SC...it's undeniable that "part of you" is moving in a radically different direction.  Please see me standing and applauding those efforts.  Lots of work on your part to get you to this new place.

Just as undeniable, there is a part of you that is "stuck" or "responsible for" or...(struggling for the right words).  I'm curious about when and how you think this part of you will step back from all the issues surrounding your wife's mental illness.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Where are your personal boundaries around this stolencrumbs?    I'm working to get some sense of where your boundaries are,.. and why.    Your wife has expanded her verbal and emotional abuse to include other people... your family, your boss, your sister in law,... your sister in law's boss.    where are your boundaries?    when does this become the line that can not be crossed?

I ask myself that, too. And I don't know the answer. Or, rather, apparently the answer is that I don't actually have any. She does something awful, it changes things for a couple of days or so, and then I slip back into whatever it was I was doing, and whatever she did is treated like it didn't happen. When I look back on posts here, or just think about the last five years, there are so many things that I think any sane person would take as a final straw. Yet here I am. Even when I am actively pursuing a divorce, I am doing many of the same things.

She has threatened to burn the house down.  She has threatened to turn the dogs loose to run in traffic.   She has threatened to charge you with domestic/physical abuse.    She has threatened to end her life.    but it sounds like you are telling me that's okay because she doesn't actually follow completely through.   She only burnt a rug.   She has only shared the physical abuse allegation with some people.   Oh my SC.    can we call this what it is?   it isn't "so it's a normal Wednesday" at the Crumbs.   This is emotional and verbal abuse.   It coercion, compulsion, duress, and intimidation.   Its a deeply unhealthy way of relating.    It's abnormal.    Its damaging.     I am going to say that it doesn't matter if she follows through on the threats or not.   This is a deeply deeply dysfunctional way of having a relationship.

Yep. Agree with all of that. I still struggle with conceptualizing it as abuse. I sometimes think it would be easier if she physically abused me (more than she has). That somehow seems clearer to me. But I do recognize that it is abuse.

so how is this going to work for you when she gets served with the papers?   she's going to meltdown.   and you are going to go over there to do what?  and are you going to keep doing this through the divorce process?  I recall your lawyer being pretty clear.   Stay away.   don't put yourself at risk.    from my perspective this is a horrible mixed message SC.   I am divorcing you but here I come to help defuse you.    how is that fair to either her or you?

I don't really know what will happen, or what I will do. I guess my hope is that making the divorce process official and officially in motion and on a clock will help me redefine what our relationship is and start doing things differently. Probably wishful thinking, but I think it is at least a big step in that direction.

And I agree about the mixed messages. I have talked to her about that explicitly on multiple occassions. It makes me feel awful. I do not want to be her husband. I go over there and do things out of fear and because I don't want her to harm herself. But she takes that as there being some kind of hope that I am coming back home. I do hate that. I feel that mixed message pretty intensely, and I don't think it's fair to her. And when she is able to listen and talk about it, she agrees that it's not fair to her. But then she has a meltdown, and at that point, it's entirely up to me to stick to not trying to rescue and to not do what we both agree is something that is unfair. And obviously I'm not so good at sticking to it at that point.

it seems to me that at some point you will need to detach from these messages,   you will need to detach from the meltdowns.   what would be the first step for you to detach?   have you considered changing phone numbers?    changing email addresses?    could you add a second phone that would be your common every day phone and turn off the one she has the number too?     what would stop you from doing that?   what would begin to break this conditioning?

I don't really know what would break the conditioning. I haven't thought about changing numbers. I think part of me thinks I need to be able to bear whatever she is going to throw at me. It feels wrong to run away and hide, which is what changing numbers, etc. feels like. I'm sure that's not the right way to think about it, but I do think that. At this point, I can easily see this ending up with me getting an order of protection, and I guess that would facilitate the deconditioning. I've never wanted it to come to that, but it might.

still dealing with your fear by defusing her behavior hasn't proven to be a win/win.    it seems to have prolonged the dysregulation.   it has kept both of you stuck in this painful situation.

Agree, and I try to remind myself of this all the time. If I care about her, I need to do what might actually help, and the evidence is in that what I've been doing doesn't. It has kept us both in this awful pattern and kept both of our lives on a slow-motion trajectory downward. That's not loving or kind to either one of us. I get that, but I also struggle with really believing that.

I would disagree with you here SC.   I don't think you could actually do that.   I don't think you could actually live that life because she would continue with her severe expression of her illness.  you would be living at home but sleeping in your truck again... because she took a hammer to the kitchen.   Sacrificing what is best for you seems to be a deeply engrained idea.    Where do you think that comes from?    and why is okay to put yourself at risk for emotional abuse?

I think you're right that eventually something like that would happen, because she hasn't done anything to address the underlying problems. So at some point, there will be something that triggers her, and things will be back to what they were. I don't know how long it would take for that to happen, but I do think it would happen.

I'm not sure where it all comes from. At least part of it is from childhood. My older brother had very strong opinions about things and he always got what he wanted--we ate what he wanted, went where he wanted to go, did things he wanted to do, etc. I learned pretty early on to just be fine with whatever. Oh, that hamburger has onions on it and my older brother doesn't like onions, so I guess I like onions now because that hamburger's mine. I was always the "good" kid because I was fine with everything. I didn't ask for anything and I didn't complain about anything. And I was praised for that. So that's part of it.

The other part that I don't quite understand how it fits in, but I'm sure it does, and I'm not sure I've mentioned this on the board before, but I was abused by an older relative when I was younger--from about age 5 to age 8 or 9. I think that probably conditioned me to accept abuse, stay quiet about abuse, and to internalize that my role was to satisfy other people's needs whether I wanted to or not. 

[stolencrumbs]

What is the advice of your attorney regarding your safety?

Best,

FF

He thinks it's crazy that I would go over there, though he largely thinks that for non-legal reasons, and for reasons that seem obvious to everyone else in my life who has any idea what's going on. Legally, he also thinks I shouldn't see her, but he also thinks I will be fine even if she does make false allegations, though there's obviously risk of the hassel of dealing with all of that even if I am fine in the end.

And he, like a lot of other people in my life, worry about my safety more generally in ways that I do not--that she may get violent with me. Maybe I should worry about that, but I always brush off those concerns.

[formflier]

I think I see a solution that is NOT running but is a healthy way for you to start the detaching process.

Boundaries.  None of us can be available 24/7 to care for somone else.

Do you turn your phone off when you sleep?  How do you currently get "alone time"?

Here is what I see/recommend.

Get another phone that is for your future.  Start giving out that number (but obviously not to your wife).

Keep the old number and decide at the start of the week when you will turn it on AND for how long.

So...you decide that Monday from 6 to 630 you will deal with whatever messages are on your "old" phone.  Then you will wait until Wed at 7pm to check in again and so on and so forth.

If you are still wading through messages at 6:30...turn off the phone and go again in a few days.

After a few weeks you can stretch it out.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

The other part that I don't quite understand how it fits in, but I'm sure it does, and I'm not sure I've mentioned this on the board before, but I was abused by an older relative when I was younger--from about age 5 to age 8 or 9. I think that probably conditioned me to accept abuse, stay quiet about abuse, and to internalize that my role was to satisfy other people's needs whether I wanted to or not.

I think you are exactly right, stolencrumbs, and I am so very sorry you had to go through this.

Did you ever speak up about what happened to you to your parents or another adult? Were there ever consequences for this person?

Does anyone in your family know, and if you did tell them, how did they react?

I think a common thread for a lot of people (myself included) who tolerate abuse (when others would call us "crazy" for doing so) is that we experienced some type of trauma in childhood or at least an Adverse Childhood Experience. There's even an assessment (called the ACE) to determine the level of adverse childhood experiences one has had.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79772.0;prev_next=next

This really gives me insight into why it is so hard for you to recognize the extent of the abuse. Having experienced very traumatic abuse before, it may be that your brain is unconsciously comparing the degree of severity of abuse and concluding that what your wife is doing is not as bad as the "real" abuse you experienced.

There may also be a residual trauma response at play here. There are four "F" trauma responses: fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. A child exposed to repeated abuse may develop the freeze response and dissociate while the abuse is happening or as a means of escaping the abuse without physically running away. The fawn response generally means giving in to the demands of the abuser (fawning and becoming submissive or passive) in order to prevent the abuse from escalating and being worse than it already is.

If I had to guess, you exhibit a freeze/fawn pattern. You're trying to do the bare minimum to appease your wife because you fear that she will do what she threatens to do (and I think the only threat you are truly afraid of is that she will attempt to or actually kill herself). You want to set boundaries and protect yourself, but you are stuck (not totally, because you have filed for divorce, but you still can't bring yourself to not try to soothe her out of a dysregulation). The fear is keeping you frozen. Then you fawn to keep her from doing what you fear she will do. I'm a freeze/fawn type as well.

I think that the abuse you experienced likely ingrained in you the message that you can't protect yourself and that the worst thing in the world will happen if you stand up for yourself. What do you think?

[GaGrl]

Your boundaries need to be in place and exercised now, well in advance of your divorce.

Otherwise, you could be completely, legally divorced -- and she will still be calling you, and you will still be going to her.

Apso, the only way a P.O. can be successful is for YOU to respect it and not break it.

[stolencrumbs]

I think you are exactly right, stolencrumbs, and I am so very sorry you had to go through this.

Did you ever speak up about what happened to you to your parents or another adult? Were there ever consequences for this person?

Does anyone in your family know, and if you did tell them, how did they react?

Thanks Redeemed. I often don't know what to say in response to your posts because I just think "yep, that all sounds right."

No, I never told anyone about it. No one in my family knows, except me and the person who did it. I still see him at family gatherings. Nothing has ever been said about it. I've never told anyone other than a T and my wife. I regret telling my wife. She uses that sometimes to tell me "I'm f***ed in the head." And she has now made threats to tell my family about it, "since they think they're so perfect."

If I had to guess, you exhibit a freeze/fawn pattern. You're trying to do the bare minimum to appease your wife because you fear that she will do what she threatens to do (and I think the only threat you are truly afraid of is that she will attempt to or actually kill herself). You want to set boundaries and protect yourself, but you are stuck (not totally, because you have filed for divorce, but you still can't bring yourself to not try to soothe her out of a dysregulation). The fear is keeping you frozen. Then you fawn to keep her from doing what you fear she will do. I'm a freeze/fawn type as well.

Yep. This seems right. I think it's evident in what I do, but also by process of elimination. My response is definitely not fight or flight.

I think that the abuse you experienced likely ingrained in you the message that you can't protect yourself and that the worst thing in the world will happen if you stand up for yourself. What do you think?

I'm less sure about the last part. I think it ingrained in me the idea that I can't really stop it from happening, but if I just go along with it, it'll be over and I can be okay. Until it happens again.

Thanks for the insight here.

[babyducks]

stolencrumbs,

thanks very much for your reply.    its too convoluted to go into here but your reply actually helped me.  so sincere thanks.

I ask myself that, too. And I don't know the answer. Or, rather, apparently the answer is that I don't actually have any. She does something awful, it changes things for a couple of days or so, and then I slip back into whatever it was I was doing, and whatever she did is treated like it didn't happen.

this makes a great deal of sense.    you are repeating a pattern you learned in your youth.

I'm less sure about the last part. I think it ingrained in me the idea that I can't really stop it from happening, but if I just go along with it, it'll be over and I can be okay. Until it happens again.

I really liked what Redeemed wrote (as always).   I have a pretty high ACE score (adverse childhood experiences)   On the test she linked us to I am a 5 with a resilience score of 5.    those childhood experiences did create patterns in how I respond to things,.. and most certainly how I think about things.   I am not so much a freeze as I am a "freak out and hide under the bed".    

it makes sense that your childhood experience impacts how you process your current situation.   one of the things I learned over time is that coping mechanisms I used/learned as a child were pretty brilliant.   for a kid I did a great job of handing things.     hiding in the bed was one of the best things I could have done when I was 10.    without getting into details that really worked.    however,... it doesn't work now that I am an adult.    I have to learn to identify and change those patterns.  

Yep. Agree with all of that. I still struggle with conceptualizing it as abuse. I sometimes think it would be easier if she physically abused me (more than she has). That somehow seems clearer to me. But I do recognize that it is abuse.

what I wonder as I read this is... if you conceptualize abuse as normal.  "oh this is just what happens in families,   it's my job to endure it, bear what ever is thrown at me and that is how life works."

I don't really know what will happen, or what I will do. I guess my hope is that making the divorce process official and officially in motion and on a clock will help me redefine what our relationship is and start doing things differently. Probably wishful thinking, but I think it is at least a big step in that direction.

its a huge step in that direction.    its the beginning of a new life.   it shows a tremendous amount of personal work and dogged determination.      you are making progress!

I don't really know what would break the conditioning. I haven't thought about changing numbers.

we can help.           I like FF's idea of getting a second phone.     a new number.   don't turn off your current number but limit (in whatever way works for you)  the amount of time you spent connected to the old/original number.   that phone, that number is associated with trauma for you.    it's an actual physical connection to trauma.   I think it would be freeing if you can remove that from your life.   slowly to be sure.

I also like that you are thinking about a RO or an order of protection.    this might become necessary.  you are not going to be able to be in contact with your wife through some of the more intense moments of the divorce process.    I would suggest a buffer between the two of you.    have the lawyers communicate.   turn your phone off.   and you mentioned you have vacation time stored up... take your vacation (at appropriate moments)   and go someplace where it would be physically difficult to be in contact with your wife or go see your wife.  

The other part that I don't quite understand how it fits in, but I'm sure it does, and I'm not sure I've mentioned this on the board before, but I was abused by an older relative when I was younger--from about age 5 to age 8 or 9. I think that probably conditioned me to accept abuse, stay quiet about abuse, and to internalize that my role was to satisfy other people's needs whether I wanted to or not.  

I'm very sorry this was done to you SC.    I'm impressed with your insight in linking the two together and the guts it took to share this here.    

Nothing has ever been said about it. I've never told anyone other than a T and my wife. I regret telling my wife. She uses that sometimes to tell me "I'm f***ed in the head." And she has now made threats to tell my family about it, "since they think they're so perfect."

oh  .      words seldom fail me.   they fail me now.    

this is terribly abusive.    actually this is terribly loathsome.  Please take us seriously when we encourage you to protect yourself.    take your physical and emotional safety seriously.     your wife has no impulse control when it comes to what she could do or say.    she has almost no functioning sense of right/wrong that I can see from what you write.    is there a way you can blunt this attack in any way?   Lie if you have to ?    Prepare your family by telling them you are going through an acrimonious divorce and you anticipate many false allegations?   I'm very sorry but I've forgotten how the conversation went with you family after the false allegations of you 'beating her black and blue'.    how did that go?

hang in there SC.    you are in a tough spot.   but it is also clear you are moving towards betterment.    so very glad to see you making such progress.

respectfully
'ducks

[formflier]

Prepare your family by telling them you are going through an acrimonious divorce and you anticipate many false allegations?  

I would add to prepare them for false allegations that perhaps involve them and/or other family members they know (not just you).

I would not share any details...and I really hope this does not get out and around your family.

I'll say "ditto" to having trouble responding about someone that would threaten and use your vulnerability with them "against you".  That says a lot about your wife's character...not yours.

 

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

what I wonder as I read this is... if you conceptualize abuse as normal.  "oh this is just what happens in families,   it's my job to endure it, bear what ever is thrown at me and that is how life works."

I don't think I see it as being just what happens in families. Maybe I see it as just what happens to me, and my job is to endure it. I have a pretty low ACE score--2--and a pretty high resiliency score--11. I would generally describe my childhood as really good, and normal, and stable. But clearly the abuse as a child had an impact, and I can see the same thinking repeating itself. Even today, I tend to minimize the abuse I experienced. I tell myself it wasn't that bad. And the person who did it was young, too--a teenager. I make excuses. I minimize it. And part of me also thinks it was my fault, or that I was somehow complicit in it. I know that's not the case. I was a little kid and he was old enough to know better. I know it's not my fault. But I went along with it. I didn't protest. I didn't tell anyone. I think I remember on a few occassions thinking it was a fun game. I know all of that is a pretty normal response for a kid experiencing that kind of abuse. And I know it doesn't make me complicit in it. But I see that same thinking in my relationship now. I know a lot of what my wife does is wrong and abusive. But I do stick around. I go along with a lot. I don't protest very much, and didn't at all for a long time. And she always has a reason for doing what she does, and even if I recognize that none of those reasons justify anything, I can also see how from her perspective, it is my fault. That I've done something to bring this on, and so I should just deal with it. I can see that thinking is messed up in a variety of ways, but I do recognize myself thinking like that.

oh  .      words seldom fail me.   they fail me now.    

this is terribly abusive.    actually this is terribly loathsome.  Please take us seriously when we encourage you to protect yourself.    take your physical and emotional safety seriously.     your wife has no impulse control when it comes to what she could do or say.    she has almost no functioning sense of right/wrong that I can see from what you write.

My first instinct here is to defend her. It wasn't that bad. She only told me that a couple of times. She made the threat when she was drunk. She really isn't like that all of the time. When at baseline, she has a big heart. etc. I probably need to stop doing that so much.

is there a way you can blunt this attack in any way?   Lie if you have to ?    Prepare your family by telling them you are going through an acrimonious divorce and you anticipate many false allegations?   I'm very sorry but I've forgotten how the conversation went with you family after the false allegations of you 'beating her black and blue'.    how did that go?

I don't know. My family is aware of what's going on generally, and they certainly wouldn't be surprised by her making allegations. They didn't believe her allegations at all about me beating her. I don't know how good I would be at lying about it to them. I think I can just not give them any details. My wife doesn't know who in my family it was, and I don't have any intention of telling my family any details. If my wife goes completely off the rails for an extended period of time, maybe her doing this will just be a blip in the mass of chaos she will try to create. 

we can help.           I like FF's idea of getting a second phone.     a new number.   don't turn off your current number but limit (in whatever way works for you)  the amount of time you spent connected to the old/original number.   that phone, that number is associated with trauma for you.    it's an actual physical connection to trauma.   I think it would be freeing if you can remove that from your life.   slowly to be sure.

I also like that you are thinking about a RO or an order of protection.    this might become necessary.  you are not going to be able to be in contact with your wife through some of the more intense moments of the divorce process.    I would suggest a buffer between the two of you.    have the lawyers communicate.   turn your phone off.   and you mentioned you have vacation time stored up... take your vacation (at appropriate moments)   and go someplace where it would be physically difficult to be in contact with your wife or go see your wife.

I'll think more about these ideas. This may be wishful thinking, but I feel like what needs to happen is that I need to make a real commitment to change what I do, and really decide that I am going to do things differently. I don't think I've ever really done that, or to the extent I have, it hasn't come from a genuine commitment on my part to take care of myself, step out of this cycle, and start doing things differently. I feel like when I actually do that, limiting contact will be much more doable. But maybe not.

The papers are supposed to be served today. Deep breath.  

[formflier]

I'll think more about these ideas. 

Can you go ahead and get another phone or perhaps get yourself a good voice number?

There are other things like google voice, but I do 95% or more of my calling/texting from google voice and most of it is done on a chromebook instead of an actual cell phone.

Once you have a new number you can start switching your important numbers and people to that phone number and get comfortable that you are getting their calls and messages.   Perhaps by then you will be ready to  think about limiting contact with your stbex.

Let me stand back a minute and applaud and thank you.

The openness you are having here with your thinking and intensely personal issues is admirable.  It will help many many people to move through similar difficult life issues.

Thank you!

Remember...break things down into very small and manageable bites.  Get the new phone number first..then go from there.

OBTW...if curious about google voice I can chat more here or on another thread..whatever.  I love it...some don't.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Can you go ahead and get another phone or perhaps get yourself a good voice number?

There are other things like google voice, but I do 95% or more of my calling/texting from google voice and most of it is done on a chromebook instead of an actual cell phone.

Once you have a new number you can start switching your important numbers and people to that phone number and get comfortable that you are getting their calls and messages.   Perhaps by then you will be ready to  think about limiting contact with your stbex.

Let me stand back a minute and applaud and thank you.

The openness you are having here with your thinking and intensely personal issues is admirable.  It will help many many people to move through similar difficult life issues.

Thank you!

Remember...break things down into very small and manageable bites.  Get the new phone number first..then go from there.

OBTW...if curious about google voice I can chat more here or on another thread..whatever.  I love it...some don't.

Best,

FF

Thanks, ff. This is all hard, but this board has been immensly helpful.

I already have a google voice #. I use it mainly for signing up for things that are likely to generate spam calls, but I could transition to that being my main number, or sign up for a different google voice #.

[formflier]

Getting and using two GV numbers is tricky, even if you are trying to manage two gmails on one device.

I would recommend transitioning to GV as your main number.

Do you use a chromebook?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Getting and using two GV numbers is tricky, even if you are trying to manage two gmails on one device.

I would recommend transitioning to GV as your main number.

Do you use a chromebook?

Best,

FF

Yes, and I use an Android phone, so it's all pretty easy to integrate and sync.

I literally never check the current google voice number, and it's tied to an email account that I use exclusively for signing up for things online. I think I could easily get another number attached to my primary gmail account. I don't really manage the google voice number I have now or the email account it's tied to. I played around with it when i first signed up and it seemed pretty intuitive. Being able to text from the chromebook was nice.

[babyducks]

hello Stolencrumbs,

But I see that same thinking in my relationship now. I know a lot of what my wife does is wrong and abusive. But I do stick around. I go along with a lot. I don't protest very much, and didn't at all for a long time. And she always has a reason for doing what she does, and even if I recognize that none of those reasons justify anything, I can also see how from her perspective, it is my fault. That I've done something to bring this on, and so I should just deal with it. I can see that thinking is messed up in a variety of ways, but I do recognize myself thinking like that.

I am thinking of Pete Walker's book here, and if I remember correctly you have read it.    You are absolutely correct,  this is normal/typical thinking for people who have a trauma history.    Walker calls it "a disorder of assertiveness" or "the inability to express rights, needs and boundaries in relationship".     

there are real significant reasons for this type of thinking.    when we were kids we learned what kept us "safe".   it created  cerebral “wiring” and habits of automatically forfeiting boundaries, limits, rights and needs.   these habits were and are triggered by a fear of being attacked for lapses.

My first instinct here is to defend her. It wasn't that bad. She only told me that a couple of times. She made the threat when she was drunk. She really isn't like that all of the time. When at baseline, she has a big heart. etc. I probably need to stop doing that so much.

it was that bad SC.   that behavior was reprehensible.   I am not saying she is reprehensible but until she learns to behave better, and treat you with respect she is not a safe person to be around.   you have the right to be treated kindly.   if she can't do that regularly you have the right to remove yourself from abusive and denigrating conversations.

This may be wishful thinking, but I feel like what needs to happen is that I need to make a real commitment to change what I do, and really decide that I am going to do things differently. I don't think I've ever really done that, or to the extent I have, it hasn't come from a genuine commitment on my part to take care of myself, step out of this cycle, and start doing things differently. I feel like when I actually do that, limiting contact will be much more doable. 

I like this.   Okay.   Good.   Excellent.   How does this work for you?   When you have made a genuine commitment in the past... how did you do it?   Did you make investments, emotional, logical, financial to help support your commitment?    Did you invite people to partner with you along the way?   When you made the commitment to get your degree how did you reach the stage of being firm in your decision?

The papers are supposed to be served today. Deep breath.  

How did it go?    Are you safe?   Is your wife safe?

[stolencrumbs]

How did it go?    Are you safe?   Is your wife safe?

Not well, though I guess about as expected. I am safe now, and as far as I know, she is safe, though I have not heard from her today. They attempted to serve the papers. She did not answer her phone or come to the door. I suppose they will try again today. She then started with the texts and phone calls. More threats about accusing me of abuse (apparently she wants to claim that I have abused her for years and that she is terrified of me) and filing for an order of protection against me. (I have talked to my lawyer this morning. He is not overly concerned about this legally. I should stay away, but he's not particularly worried about the legal consequences of her doing this.) She threatened again to tell my family "my deepest, darkest secret." She did send an email last night to about eight people in my family, mainly attacking my SIL. She did say at the end, in all caps, that they should all ask me what happened to me as a child that was so bad. I had already talked to my immediate family and told them to expect all kinds of emails and allegations, so I think it'll be fine. I doubt anyone is going to ask about it, and I'm fine with that. In general, there was lots of vague talk about "blowing my life up," and how I'm going to wake up in a world where the only thing keeping her alive is a desire to get "justice." And, of course, all of her threats were conditional on whether she makes it through the night, and she reiterated that the divorce papers were her death certificate, and that I was choosing to kill her. I still listened to it all for much longer than I should have, though I felt like it was important to get it all recorded. Not sure what fresh hell awaits me today/tonight. Classes start on Monday, so I have plenty of work to do to try to keep me busy and not obsessing and worrying about all of this. She's going to do what she's going to do, and there's not much I can do about that. Still working on flipping the switch to not listening, not reading texts, not answering phone calls. I am definitely not going over there at this point.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s going to feel really weird changing your behavioral patterns, as you’ve been so accustomed to dropping everything to attend to her concerns. But as you continue to follow through with this, it will definitely get easier and you’ll establish a new pattern, one that is more supportive of your wellbeing.

Something for you to consider is that mental health issues or not, she is an adult and responsible for her choices. One of the choices she has made repeatedly is to not treat you with the love and respect that you deserve.

[I Am Redeemed]

They attempted to serve the papers. She did not answer her phone or come to the door. I suppose they will try again today.

I had a feeling she would do this, since she had a heads up that it was happening. What happens if she keeps avoiding it?

I'm glad you have made the decision not to go over there and that your lawyer is informed about her threats to make false allegations.

So you got everything that she said recorded? I would think that if you did, that would be good evidence if she should follow through on the false allegations threats. Also, abuse victims do not generally send harassing messages to eight members of the abuser's family, so there's that.

Even if you listened longer than you recognize as being a healthy limit, you've made an important step in choosing to not go over there regardless of what she says. You've also made an important step in being proactive by notifying your lawyer about her threats and recording for your own documentation of her behavior. That's good progress. It will get easier and as Cat says, yes, it feels weird at first when changing your behavior patterns and not following your instinct to jump in and rescue her from her own feelings. It does get easier though. One step at a time. The more space you get from her, the more chances you get for self care which helps you to settle your nervous system. That helps you make decisions from a centered place instead of a place of constant high alert. Prolonged exposure to abusive behaviors like these produce a flood of cortisol in our brains which keeps us in hypervigilance. It also interferes with our thinking and even the way we assess what is dangerous. Separating yourself from the trigger(s) for this continuous stress will help your brain to calm down and think more clearly.