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Author Topic: Is it really about looks, or something different?  (Read 371 times)
dindin
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« on: October 01, 2020, 01:34:13 PM »

Thanks for your answer. It does make a lot of sense, I'm kinda jealous of people who have this natural intuition for self-preservation and a buffer against rumination, jealousy, etc.. But what you're gonna do, I make up for it in other aspects of life, and I'll try to devlop one myself.

Now, on a completely different note. I wanted to ask you all about the force of attraction as it pertains to your ex BPD partners or romantic life in general. It vaguely connects to the topic of boundries I guess. I know this topic can result in a **** storm, as its very sensitive, and I would really ask you not to get into gender politics, red/blue pills, etc. Just your opinion, no identity politics please.

Here goes: is there a physical type (looks, demeanor, etc. something that you sense or see even without saying a word to them, like first time you see them) of a man/woman who is more likely to be cluster B, toxic, or similar? Now hear me out, there is a lot of context to this question:

Basically I took stock of who I am/was attracted to. I also tried to put myself out there and meet people whom in the past I would consider attractive, but not for the sake of dating or anything, but to really get to know myself in what I find attractive. So I would simply hit someone up in a bar, library, have a chat, talk to an old forgotten friend, etc. and just make a note of who that person might be. What they do, etc. And how I react to that. No dates, just chatting.

And I am kinda terrified of the patterns I observe. I have a type, no question about it. And what is crazy is that I didn't know these people, just found them attractive because of one feature or another, or from looks, so super superficial stuff. And yet, they all fit the same personality type, even after 1 or 2 conversations with them. In this small sample of people met in public places, work, etc., majority were either crazy artsy type, sex workers (!), or addicts of sorts. Not that I am a mother teresa or anything, no judgment. Just trying to get to know my own likes. Disclaimer: obviously I don't know them in any capacity after so little time, it could be a projection, but they shared that "info" willingly - I just listened.

Now, how in the **** does my subconscious pick these people? Is it really about looks, or something different? Someone said in this topic, that people usually pick other people that are similarly emotionally available, and I get that. But how do you know that from just finding someone "hot" or "interesting"? I have another theory, is that these people are easy to pick up because of their low self esteem or somethign, or chat up to, and I am no casanova in that regard, so I might somehow be aiming low in terms of effort when meeting people, and hence the effect. Like I pick up on subtle clues or past experience saying oh this means an easy effortless connection? Is that it?

But what do you guys think? Did you find out that you have a physical "type"? Was that all about looks? What's your thoughts on this?
I would especially like to hear girls opinion on this, or gay folks. Have you found some commonalities in demeanor, looks, fashion sense, maybe field they work in, of your partners in the past?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 08:43:24 PM by once removed » Logged
FindingMe2011
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2020, 08:41:55 PM »

But what you're gonna do, I make up for it in other aspects of life, and I'll try to develop one myself.

I did, so you can also.......I have always been described as one who will give the shirt off his back to help. Today I understand who to help.

Now, on a completely different note. I wanted to ask you all about the force of attraction as it pertains to your ex BPD partners or romantic life in general. It vaguely connects to the topic of boundaries I guess. I know this topic can result in a **** storm, as its very sensitive, and I would really ask you not to get into gender politics, red/blue pills, etc. Just your opinion, no identity politics please.

Interesting subject and I have evaluated every r/s that I have ever had. From a 13 year r/s, to the ones I dont remember their names. I would say 70% of them suffered physical or sexual abuse. What does this tell me? 7 in 10 women I meet, that Im attracted to, most likely fit this criteria. I believe subconsciously, the attraction/relation is the pain suffered in childhood. All unresolved childhood trauma appears to play out in adulthood for all, in some capacity

Here goes: is there a physical type (looks, demeanor, etc. something that you sense or see even without saying a word to them, like first time you see them)

Im a thin person, so I like thin. To each his own.........For me, body language shows interest and upon introducing myself, this would let me know whether or not to pursue. Eye contact, when and when its not happening, is also telling. Before I understood psychology in my younger years, some of us had a saying of "I see some f*** me eyes. I would presume these were the DSM5  heavy trait ed individuals, just as myself.

I also tried to put myself out there and meet people whom in the past I would consider attractive, but not for the sake of dating or anything,

Why would you not try to date, if attracted to them? Do you not find them attractive today?

So I would simply hit someone up in a bar, library, have a chat,

These had to be polar opposite conversations...........One is medicating, the other is learning. I wonder which one has more potential for an amicable r/s ? Bars are full of mental illnesses, just as the internet.

Now, how in the **** does my subconscious pick these people? Is it really about looks, or something different? Someone said in this topic, that people usually pick other people that are similarly emotionally available, and I get that.

Your subconscious is at least 3 seconds ahead of your conscious. For some it appears light years away. Its memory bank is trauma you have buried there, that you dont remember consciously but damn sure FEEL it. And yes people will seek others on, or about the same emotional availability level. In the past it was looked at, almost like a game. I was the youngest of 3 boys and testosterone ruled the house. I was taught to swing the bat 100 times in order to hit a home run. It still flows pretty well, just alot more controlled these days.

so I might somehow be aiming low in terms of effort when meeting people,

Or people you perceive to have an advantage over? I found this to be true of myself.

No dates, just chatting.

Talk is cheap. Go out on some dates with no expectations, when observing you become enlightened. I wish you well, Peace










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dindin
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2020, 04:54:21 AM »

Or people you perceive to have an advantage over? I found this to be true of myself.

Yeah, that rings true on some level. This oneupmanship is a tough habit to break. How do I practice it in terms of relating to other people in dating?

Why would you not try to date, if attracted to them? Do you not find them attractive today?

I find them physically attractive, but emotionally there is a shift. Also I don't want to date yet because of two reasons:
1) I'm in avoidance mode at the moment :D
2) I feel like it's a bit too early after the breakup. It's only been a few months.
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2020, 05:43:16 AM »

Its good to connect with how you feel but there is advantage of not building in too much anxiety. Took me 4 months to date again and it wasnt what i expected to be, was just good to feel appreciated again, it dispelled some of that magnitude of attachment and grieving. Just going out and taking things at ones own pace realising that its good opportunity to take things slower, practice a bit of these boundaries that is just really a skill to pick up. One of the most helpful things in my own recovery was to connect with others and learn to put some of that grieving etc on the back burner for a fee hours, appreciate the new person, some relief from ruminating. Plenty women out there just looking for a bit of friendship /company and happy to take things slow. My therapist told me the way to work on this anxiety and jadedness was to not hide from it but confront it to get over it
The key is doing it from a safer more healthier emotionally protective manner than i did previously

These arent things to be jealous of they can learn as a skill just like anything else.
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FindingMe2011
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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2020, 08:49:39 AM »

Yeah, that rings true on some level. This oneupmanship is a tough habit to break. How do I practice it in terms of relating to other people in dating?

If you are there for a selfish intentions, and cant explain this to the other, exit stage left................ Conversation, especially where and where not, the potential partner can go says plenty. The temptation or sometimes my own ignorance puts me in positions I have been in, in the past. As I recognize them, I correct them and move on. Relating my truth with others can confirm or deny what I believe. it also allows me to see where others stand.

I find them physically attractive, but emotionally there is a shift. Also I don't want to date yet because of two reasons:
1) I'm in avoidance mode at the moment :D
2) I feel like it's a bit too early after the breakup. It's only been a few months.


What does the emotional shift look like? For me it was seeing through people, I would once consider a potential partner, and understand it was a train wreck waiting to happen...........Avoidance is not your friend here. Neither is falling for the first person who shows you some attention. Interacting with those outside your comfort zone, speaking your truth, will allow you to change your truth some more............ I had always thought my way through things, my feelings lead me down the path. I have now learned to trust my feelings and they serve me well. I dont always like the answers.........but they are true. Experience is the only thing that makes one an expert. There are many mistakes made, in gaining experience. I wish you well, Peace
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dindin
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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2020, 10:00:08 AM »

If you are there for a selfish intentions, and cant explain this to the other, exit stage left................ Conversation, especially where and where not, the potential partner can go says plenty.

Can you expand on that? Don't think I understand.

What does the emotional shift look like?

Hm, it's this moment of intuitive: "ha, I know this! There it is!" followed by a slight mental throwing-up reflex. It's nothing against the person, but this is at such a low level, it can't be judgmental, more like you know not to put your hand in fire, thats not a moral judgment towards the fire. You know what I mean? And as I said earlier, this instinctive voice is so weak that it can be overcome by alcohol, feeling tired, etc. But that being said I am really proud I found it Smiling (click to insert in post)

Avoidance is not your friend here

To be honest, I don't know what's happening to me. I thought I was doing baby-steps, etc. But I have to admit I am anxious and avoidant. Have no idea where that came from. Is it normal after a bpd rs? I used to do a lot of stuff, I was a beast of fear-based discipline. And all I am left now is just anxiety. And now I can't get to the bottom of why I feel anxious. I don't think it's this negative voice that says: You aren't worthy of having good things happen, it's more like I mentally reverted a bit to being a kid, and that kid was in reality and is now simply scared. I feel in desperate need of some grown-up masculine energy if that makes sense. The false self was motivated by a host of well-established factors: to feel better than other people. But to change that to just feel better, requires some strong male energy that I have trouble finding, and this results in avoidance. Hard to explain. Any thoughts?

But with all this uncertainty and obstacles, I must say this is a fun adventure I got myself in. I never thought life could be so autonomous. Exciting stuff, despite being scary beyond belief.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 10:15:59 AM by dindin » Logged
JNChell
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2020, 12:11:04 PM »

Cromwell said

Took me 4 months to date again and it wasnt what i expected to be, was just good to feel appreciated again, it dispelled some of that magnitude of attachment and grieving. Just going out and taking things at ones own pace realising that its good opportunity to take things slower, practice a bit of these boundaries that is just really a skill to pick up.

This is an interesting take. Although it’s personal to him, it holds a lot of weight. What really stuck out to me is saying that once you got back out there, it wasn’t the same. Is that because of new knowledge and ways of thinking? Intuition? Maybe a combo? Things can definitely change after going through the wringer. It’s funny though. These aren’t normal break ups. These situations involve the part of our brain that ultimately decides our survival. The amygdala can age a person rapidly if cortisol is constantly pumped into your body. Stress and trauma.

Boundaries are important. It sucks to have to set them because that means you’re in a  :cursing:y situation.

To be honest, I don't know what's happening to me. I thought I was doing baby-steps, etc. But I have to admit I am anxious and avoidant. Have no idea where that came from. Is it normal after a bpd rs? I used to do a lot of stuff, I was a beast of fear-based discipline. And all I am left now is just anxiety. And now I can't get to the bottom of why I feel anxious. I don't think it's this negative voice that says: You aren't worthy of having good things happen, it's more like I mentally reverted a bit to being a kid, and that kid was in reality and is now simply scared. I feel in desperate need of some grown-up masculine energy if that makes sense. The false self was motivated by a host of well-established factors: to feel better than other people. But to change that to just feel better, requires some strong male energy that I have trouble finding, and this results in avoidance. Hard to explain. Any thoughts?


Man, you make perfect sense. You know what’s up. You’re gonna be ok. Anxious and avoidant is is pretty common after coming out of these relationships. I think the most important part is to try to figure out who we were when we entered these relationships. Man, I’ve been punched in the face and chest bumped into a a corner until I eventually put a hole in the wall. All the telling her to leave me alone and trying to walk away. She eventually got me cornered as was screaming in my face. Yelling “hit me mother  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post). I chose to hit in the opposite direction and put my elbow through the wall. When I did that, she told me that I was crazy. What a mind  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post)

Go your own way, dindin and be selfish about it. There is nothing wrong with doing that.

Process your feelings and research credible sources.

It’s normal to feel what you feel. You’ll see it eventually. It can’t be shown, it has to be seen.

You described it perfectly. The fire. You are mad. So am I. Rightfully so.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 12:26:50 PM by JNChell » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2020, 02:43:18 PM »

What really stuck out to me is saying that once you got back out there, it wasn’t the same. Is that because of new knowledge and ways of thinking? Intuition? Maybe a combo? Things can definitely change after going through the wringer. It’s funny though. These aren’t normal break ups. These situations involve the part of our brain that ultimately decides our survival. The amygdala can age a person rapidly if cortisol is constantly pumped into your body. Stress and trauma.

JNChell, I felt for those first 4 to 5 months that my life was on a complete autopilot, a very surreal experience but not in a scary way, it was dissociative along with the ego. Dating was easy, work was easy, just lived in the moment. why would it matter to be rejected for a date, when mentally the belief and grief was there that "the one" was already lost? to paraphrase something Wicker Man once said, coming from a vantage of nothing-to-lose is a highly advantageous place to be.

great point on stress effects. long term cardiovascular risk with the stress, short term gives a little bit of a performance edge I heard. thats the zone im in now, optimising stress to elicit performance gains. from this experience it surprises me how much our bodies can auto-fix, auto-repair, the key is keeping below that tipping point.
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« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2020, 03:17:25 PM »

I think I remember your autopilot days. It was a lot of not giving a  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post). Is that about right? Rightfully so. It’s a hard thing to come out of. You have a certain way of doing that that I don’t possess. I hang on to the wrongs that were done to me. You’re able to go out and not let those things hang you up. It’s interesting to me. I’m 44 and changing that isn’t likely, so I’m simply changing what I allow myself to be vulnerable to.

dindin, you’re an intelligent guy making your way through a bad situation. You found this community for a reason. Things will start to clear up for you. It just takes time.
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« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2020, 08:13:00 PM »

But to change that to just feel better, requires some strong male energy that I have trouble finding, and this results in avoidance. Hard to explain. Any thoughts?


Nothing to do with male/female..... Its positive energy you need and its not going to find you. Here are some pretty good thoughts.

Hm, it's this moment of intuitive: "ha, I know this! There it is!" followed by a slight mental throwing-up reflex. It's nothing against the person, but this is at such a low level, it can't be judgmental, more like you know not to put your hand in fire, thats not a moral judgment towards the fire. You know what I mean?

Take this line of thinking to everything...........Intuitive. It has no possible outcome, other than non-judgmental, if done correctly. Its the basis for inner peace. This will curb black and white thinking, it has to. The world is grey.

I used to do a lot of stuff, I was a beast of fear-based discipline. And all I am left now is just anxiety. And now I can't get to the bottom of why I feel anxious. I don't think it's this negative voice that says: You aren't worthy of having good things happen, it's more like I mentally reverted a bit to being a kid, and that kid was in reality and is now simply scared.

This is the subconscious attempting to regain its grip. You see better than most. This is how that child felt and the reason you developed ego defense mechanisms back in the day......You appear to not fear them. Allow them to flow, name them, attempting to understand them, until its next to nothing you feel. We only fear what we dont understand.

I must say this is a fun adventure I got myself in. I never thought life could be so autonomous. Exciting stuff, despite being scary beyond belief.

Alone for me, doesnt equate to lonely these days. Nobody has been able to keep up so far. This train waits for nobody, all are invited.............. Keep processing, being patient, kind and forgiving to yourself. You have alot to release and the more you process in healthy ways, the less the anxiety becomes.... I wish you well, Peace



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JNChell
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2020, 12:15:04 AM »

What’s up with the male energy thing?
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2020, 05:18:43 AM »

JNChell: What’s up with the male energy thing?

I guess I used the term in a gendered way, pardon me. What i was looking for is that drive/motivation/discipline, which obviously isn't a sex-specific thing. Despite liberal education, I guess I'm often stuck with language that is out of the '60s ;)

JNChell: Things will start to clear up for you. It just takes time.

I just discovered a book by alice miller, the drama of the gifted child. It's really fascinating how well it describes the dynamic that I had in childhood. Have you read it? You seem to have a really good grasp and focus on the childhood roots of all this, even in the context of BPD rs - could you recommend any books, podcasts or videos, or any sources really, that you found helpful?


Cromwell: coming from a vantage of nothing-to-lose is a highly advantageous place to be.

Could you write a bit more about this? Has this perspective integrated into your life later on? Do you still think of them as "the one"? I must admit at the worst times I kinda still have that feeling of missing out on something, but then I snap myself out of it and 99% of the time I see them as an "anti-one" :D It really helps to read on people stories here as a reminder of how lucky I was to dodge the bullet.

FindingMe2011: This is the subconscious attempting to regain its grip. You see better than most. This is how that child felt and the reason you developed ego defense mechanisms back in the day......You appear to not fear them. Allow them to flow, name them, attempting to understand them, until its next to nothing you feel. We only fear what we dont understand.

Not fear what? Defense mechanisms or the emotions itself? I am anxious as hell, but I am not scared in a way of not facing them. I let them in, and even if they are overwhelming I go at it the next day. It's hard but I try to stay with them. It was really helpful to not think of it as depression, but a state of a "scared child". Now that I'm reading that book I mentioned above, it almost seems like what I feel is this missing developmental stage that Alice Miller called as having hope and seeing the world as a positive place, that happens way early in childhood. This anxiety comes from the place of dread at the harshness of the world, that I somehow internalized. Because obviously the inner-critic talked me out of doing things, but even without him, there is this even lower level of just feeling dread and lack of safety that is even non verbal. Any thoughts?
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2020, 07:47:37 AM »

Dindin if you feel like reading what made me aware she or anyone else was/is not the one is chapters 1 to 5 of "psychological birth of the human infant" by Margaret Mahler. 1970s edition is on the subject of separation individuation process of development.

It opened my eyes to the reasons id attached to relationships rather than relate to relationships.

I noticed it when first few dates since no contact. A bit of attention a bit of attraction and ive found again the 'real' one, comfort from the last where od attached to the anti-one.

Difference is a day or two later i snapped out of it, remembered what id learned.

Its hard work because developed in this way, inclined to think that way, meet someone you like and this is automatic preprogrammed activity.

Maybe i haven't interpreted the meaning or her work entirely as she expects, but it was enough to dispel "the one" issue for good and im grateful for it, i know I can have all the things still i like and desire enjoy them without becoming enmeshed and therefore vulnerable. Its not necessary, disadvantageous, so why bother?

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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2020, 10:25:28 AM »

Hey, dindin. I take no offense to gender specific discussion. Personally, I think it’s important to be allowed to speak from a gendered POV. I appreciate it.

I have not read that book, but I have heard a lot of good things about it. Thanks to you, I am sold and adding it to my list.

As far as the resources that I tap into for information and insight, this community is at the top of the list. I’ve sat with a few therapists, but none of them came close to what this community offers. As far as books go, I’ve come to the conclusion that I enjoy reading about resilience. There is a three book series by Dave Pelzer that I would recommend to adult survivors of childhood abuse. “A Child Called It”, “The Lost Boy” and “A Man Named Dave”. I also enjoy reading books about special forces units in the Vietnam War. A lot of resilience in those. I also have several books on my shelf about personality disorders in parents and partners. If you suffer from childhood trauma, “The Body Keeps the Score” by Bessel Van Der Kolk is highly recommended. He also has some very insightful videos online.
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2020, 10:41:40 AM »

Not fear what? Defense mechanisms or the emotions itself?

The emotions themselves. At some point they did create fear and mechanisms were put in place to protect you. Its survival and the cost is a piece left in the past, arrested.

I am anxious as hell, but I am not scared in a way of not facing them. I let them in, and even if they are overwhelming I go at it the next day. It's hard but I try to stay with them.

This is where you need to make sense of all this on a conscious level, showing the scared little boy, (subconscious) there really is nothing to fear............ You can pull the subconscious closer to the conscious. This has created more peace for myself. I believe others have/can.

It was really helpful to not think of it as depression, but a state of a "scared child".

How can polar opposite terms (scared =adrenaline flow ...... depression = low energy ) become confused ?................. So to possibly feel alive (adrenaline) fear needs to be applied through distorted perception???...........I also struggled with motivation. Depression seems to have been my go to..... It was my normal so to speak. Maybe replaced fear with thrill seeking???? Interesting....

I mentioned above, it almost seems like what I feel is this missing developmental stage

This is the basis for ALL learned behavior mental illnesses...... Bi-polar, schizoid, from what I understand, are categorized as brain chemical imbalances. Could these really be measured with 100% certainty?

, but even without him, there is this even lower level of just feeling dread and lack of safety that is even non verbal. Any thoughts?

This is that scared little boy. Keep speaking with him putting this fear in perspective. Hes tired of surviving and wants to live. Allow him the patience, kindness, and forgiveness we all deserve. It takes time and if youre persistent he will catch up. Stay observant and intuitive.

I guess I used the term in a gendered way, pardon me. What i was looking for is that drive/motivation/discipline, which obviously isn't a sex-specific thing. Despite liberal education, I guess I'm often stuck with language that is out of the '60s ;)

So youre apologizing for being a man???? Maybe that aspect wasnt gender driven but much in psychology is....I have to ask what your definition of liberal actually means? Liberal should mean accepting of ALL ideas....This is NOT what our education system has done for decades. It appears more like communism. Many terms have been hijacked from our language, it really sucks, just as PC talk, its false...................Men commit suicide 4 to 1.....This would be a factor. I wish you well, Peace

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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2020, 10:51:34 AM »

Liberal should mean accepting of ALL ideas....This is NOT what our education system has done for decades. It appears more like communism. Many terms have been hijacked from our language,

Well said, FM2011.
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2020, 10:55:58 AM »

Thanks everyone for answering. I'll read the books you guys recommended.

How can polar opposite terms (scared =adrenaline flow ...... depression = low energy ) become confused ?.................


You know what. I don't have an answer to that. As I am sitting on my couch, I can feel the anxiety, it's almost as if someone/something was out to get me at any moment. I have no idea why I would call that depression. Even though I know depression well, and it's not this. For the last week or so I was calling this being depressed, what I weird thing to lie to myself about.

Edit: god ****, thinking about it gave me a flashback to another memory from childhood. As an early teenager my parents left me alone at home, and so much of this irrational anxiety just erupted then that I spent many nights unable to sleep, because I was afraid of being murdered. I completely forgot about it. It's exactly the same sensation.
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2020, 11:04:04 AM »

Go easy on yourself. As I said, this stuff is hard to navigate. The anxiety, that’s the amygdala. As you were being raised, your brain was developing. Being hard wired. The amygdala is the defense mechanism of the brain. Fight, flight or freeze. When triggered, it releases cortisol (stress hormone) into the bloodstream. Humans are habit forming, and that all starts with the brain. Your amygdala formed a habit to be on high alert due to your upbringing. Make sense? All hope is not lost. The symptoms can be managed and overcome, it just takes some work.
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2020, 01:52:09 PM »

As an early teenager my parents left me alone at home

You had this same perception long before this.......This was your perception as a teenager

, and so much of this irrational anxiety just erupted then that I spent many nights unable to sleep, because I was afraid of being murdered. I completely forgot about it. It's exactly the same sensation.

Its the same sensation, in a different form...........Your trauma. A developing mind that doesnt feel safe, isnt developing. I wish you well, Peace. Youre well on your way to earning some and well deserved.

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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2020, 03:04:47 PM »

Forgot to mention Jocko Willink. Check that guy out. There’s always something to take away from his discussions.
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2020, 12:43:36 PM »

It became apparent during therapy that this anxiety is also linked to another self-defeating thing I do. Namely, it seems that whenever I go on a few days being autonomous, or even think of taking care of myself, of trying to express the needs of that inner child, I punish myself. This takes form of subconscious fear of some catastrophy, lack of self care that results in little energy, problems of releating to the opposite sex in a healthy way at times, and extremely dark and hurtful fantasies and ruminations that are almost demonically concocted in my mind and used as a weapon against me being myself.

All these are completely subconscious and low-level. And we could talk about them only because some of that content appeared in dreams and from being in the presence of that fear I talked about. Weird? But from what I told about my childhood my T says it seems that I internalized the negative voice of my parents that killed self-expression and also internalized the feeling of fear itself from my mom.

So I asked how come I was more carefree and allowed myself some spontineity even in a toxic relationship at times, especially after a big argument, etc. My T said that I have a repetition compulsion to relive that stifling parental voice and the internalized fear of abandonment itself. So I chose partners whose emotionality allows me to feel secure at one moment and then rejected for being myself the next moment. It could be some kind of forced mortification for the sake of reliving the trauma.

Does that sound feasable? I mean I knew I internalized the critical voice, a "bad" judge - which I linked to my father - and was working on it with some CBT skills, and that worked pretty well. But it seems that I hit a wall, so to speak, that there is this deeper abandonment wound, that seems to be more connected to my mom, that my T says is linked to what kind of partners I feel attracted to, why I feel the need for that artificial high, and why I go into "immobilised" state when alone.

Does that make any sense? I could get some things wrong and added some of my interpretation, but this seems plausible to me. What is scary is that it somehow looks like a mild form of BPD, doesn't it? I mean the emotionallity of it, and the root cause, right? Except with the self not being completely lost, it seems on the same spectrum or soemthing... Is codependency really that similar but less severe than borderline?

I mean I knew there would be deep stuff, but I never thought it would go that deep and into some subconscious wounding from the maternal bond that happened before I could even speak. That is so far away removed from my previous view of the world, that it left me speechless. There's layers on layers of this. What do you guys think? Has anyone found similar answers for themselves?

Edit:
JNChell - oh, I read Jocko. Good stuff for leadership, etc.
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2020, 05:07:09 PM »

It became apparent during therapy that this anxiety is also linked to another self-defeating thing I do. Namely, it seems that whenever I go on a few days being autonomous, or even think of taking care of myself, of trying to express the needs of that inner child, I punish myself.

When you use the term autonomous ( not being controlled by outside forces)....I have to ask when your not autonomous, what controls you?......... What does not taking care of yourself look like? What does taking care of yourself look like?........

This takes form of subconscious fear of some catastrophe, lack of self care that results in little energy, problems of relating to the opposite sex in a healthy way at times, and extremely dark and hurtful fantasies and ruminations that are almost demonically concocted in my mind and used as a weapon against me being myself.

This sounds like depression...........Dark thoughts follow dark energy....Go for the walk, gym, beach, bike ride, run, something..........make yourself. This is the subconscious ruling. This needs to be confronted and battled. Start winning battles and eventually you win the war..........

All these are completely subconscious and low-level. And we could talk about them only because some of that content appeared in dreams and from being in the presence of that fear I talked about. Weird? But from what I told about my childhood my T says it seems that I internalized the negative voice of my parents that killed self-expression and also internalized the feeling of fear itself from my mom.

DreammoodsA-Zdictionary ..............Its never been off for me. Many times what I thought they represented, and what they actually did was completely different. Very interesting website......... Didnt kill self expression, just arrested it. Start expressing, you have some catching up to do.......... Many claim that the first 18 months of life, are mother/child only, for the most part. ( I believe this to be true from observation ) Just as many mental illnesses are created from helicopter parenting, as abusive ones. In both instances individuation is arrested, yet maybe one more severe?

So I asked how come I was more carefree and allowed myself some spontaneity even in a toxic relationship at times, especially after a big argument, etc

I would assume a big argument would be with girlfriend? Is this the argument you need to have with mom?
Maybe so the depression and the dark thoughts dont have a chance?

So I chose partners whose emotionality allows me to feel secure at one moment and then rejected for being myself the next moment. It could be some kind of forced mortification for the sake of reliving the trauma.

Yes, trying to get it right this time. But just as your dysfunction dictates, it could never happen this way........I remember asking my mom about my childhood in the early days. She told me more than I needed to know. It helped in my healing and gave some more understanding.

But it seems that I hit a wall, so to speak, that there is this deeper abandonment wound, that seems to be more connected to my mom, that my T says is linked to what kind of partners I feel attracted to, why I feel the need for that artificial high, and why I go into "immobilized" state when alone.

It held true for me. I married/dated my mother many times...........I joke when I meet women." I hate to say this but there's a 70-80% chance youre crazy, are you?"

Does that make any sense? I could get some things wrong and added some of my interpretation, but this seems plausible to me.

Perfectly good sense....If youre not sure, continue to attempt to prove this wrong. After many attempts this will become your truth. Believe in it until proven otherwise.

Except with the self not being completely lost, it seems on the same spectrum or soemthing... Is codependency really that similar but less severe than borderline?

Narcs shatter. Left to pick up the pieces and move on.........Borderlines needs a good false self to mirror, to complete themselves. They are said to be a bad, half self....When the mirror shatters the borderline looks for a new object to mirror. The narcs problems have just started. Unless he finds a fix.

That is so far away removed from my previous view of the world, that it left me speechless. There's layers on layers of this. What do you guys think? Has anyone found similar answers for themselves?

The world changes every second, as should your perception............. You will find not many get this far. I think youre well on your way to a much more peaceful life. I wish you well, Peace











 
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« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2020, 05:33:40 AM »

When you use the term autonomous ( not being controlled by outside forces)....I have to ask when your not autonomous, what controls you?......... What does not taking care of yourself look like? What does taking care of yourself look like?........

By autonomous I mean unhidered by fear and this internalized self-hate. I recognize these voices as installed and not necesserily mine. It's a head space more than anything.

By not taking care I mean something very basic. Like eating well, sleeping well, exercising, being unhindered in self-expression. All of this is on the back-burner because of anxiety, which is something that I haven't conciously felt since childhood.
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« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2020, 06:58:30 AM »

By autonomous I mean unhindered by fear and this internalized self-hate.

This would be impossible at this point. You have spent a lifetime getting here and to think you could do this. Its awesome your finding moments of calm, but this is far from over.

I recognize these voices as installed and not necessarily mine. It's a head space more than anything.

Oh they are yours and yours only....This piece is just full of ignorance. This teaching may take the rest of your life and possibly the most fulfilling part of your life. Are you up to it?

By not taking care I mean something very basic. Like eating well, sleeping well, exercising, being unhindered in self-expression

Habits take 30 days to get started. To just read something and believe you understand enough to make change would be ignorance on your part. Its not a spectator sport unless you just want to watch life pass you by, many do and it is a choice. These are very basic and moving on to something else, before they are mastered will assure you of missing things.

All of this is on the back-burner because of anxiety, which is something that I haven't consciously felt since childhood.

So now your making a choice to combat this the same way as you did as a child? I hope your not expecting a different result. This is an excuse. If you cant defend yourself, who exactly is ? Who is best qualified? Who has the most to gain or lose? Who wants to find genuine self love? Its not going to find you, your experiences to this point proves this, no? Its like walking through the swamp with boots on. One step at a time. I wish you well, Peace

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« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2020, 02:54:21 PM »

Thanks y'all for you kind words.

Today was a weird, weird day. Having read your response FindingMe2011, I kinda forced myself to actually do something, not think, read or meditate, but do. So the first thing I did was me being adult and taking care of everyday stuff, and for the first time in 2 or 3 months I made myself a healthy dinner. It might seem funny to you, but it is a big thing for me. I always convinced myself that I have no energy for cooking, going to a shop, etc. - especially after a long day at work, and I went to a restuarant or order food.

Having done that I simply got up and went to the gym. I was kinda aprehensive when I was going there, because in the past the only goal I had was to be "better than", and now it was a self care measure. As I was getting close to the entrance, what replaced the anxiety was this sudden surge of energy. Almost childlike. Instead of comparing myself to other people, being self conscious, I just went there as a kid to a toy store. Right from the bat I was chatting with the receptionist asking inane questions, but I had so much energy, I had to do it. And this coming from an introvert is really something. Then I was going from machine to machine with naive curiosity. There were a lot of people, and while in the past I would try to go there in the morning to be alone, I wasn't feeling any anxiety towards other people. I guess people with general anxiety can imagine that this is a big deal: not being self conscious in a crowded place at all - for the first time I think in my life.

Following that, still with that strange energy, I went to a store and bought playdough. I just saw it in the window and took it home, where I started doing stop motion animation. No perfectionism, no nothing like that.

I don't know what is coming over me. It isn't forced. I think I'm regressing to a level of a child or something, just a couple of minutes ago I got this really big urge to go buy a skating board and go to the skate park and ask guys there if they could show me how to ride it, just for PLEASE READs and giggles.

It's almost the end of the day, and I don't feel tired, despite chronic tiredness in the previous weeks. I'm not sure why I'm sharing this - I'm kinda happy and kinda embarassed I'm posting online about my playdough date with myself ;)
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« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2020, 04:44:37 PM »

So the first thing I did was me being adult and taking care of everyday stuff, and for the first time in 2 or 3 months I made myself a healthy dinner. It might seem funny to you, but it is a big thing for me.

I got one better. I spent 3 days curled up in the fetal position, on my living room floor, in between visitations from my children. ( they were my guiding light ) I now fear very little. Its been a hell of a journey and I wouldnt change a second.

I'm not sure why I'm sharing this - I'm kinda happy and kinda embarrassed I'm posting online about my playdough date with myself

This would be living........No regrets and do what comes to mind. Learn to be open with complete strangers. You will find they're not so much different than yourself. I wish you well Peace

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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2020, 02:18:20 AM »

I got one better. I spent 3 days curled up in the fetal position, on my living room floor, in between visitations from my children. ( they were my guiding light ) I now fear very little. Its been a hell of a journey and I wouldnt change a second.

Thanks for your answer.
I know this can be a sensitive subject, so don't answer if you don't feel like it. I just wanted to know if your relationship with your kids changed in any way -- I mean obviously the circumstances changed after the breakup -- but I mean the way you relate to them?

Anyone with kids can answer if they want, because the reason I am asking is that a lot of us here recognised that we are codependents (or narcs) - and having precisely these patterns in childhood from our parents probably caused it in the first place. They say that a narc + codepenedent couple is so disfunctional that it could lead to BPD in their child.

So how did the dynamic change when you recognised your own codependency?
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« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2020, 06:42:02 AM »

I just wanted to know if your relationship with your kids changed in any way -- I mean obviously the circumstances changed after the breakup -- but I mean the way you relate to them?

I can only speak for myself and it was night and day. I was able to become the parent I knew I could be. Many times in the dysfunction I would look at my children and knew there was something I should say/do, so I would do nothing or remove them from the BS with an outing. Its been almost 10 yrs, kids are adults, one shows codependent traits, (speak daily) the other, Borderline traits.( speak 1 to 2 times a week ) I had started counseling while in the r/s, kids were receptive but mom put a squash to it. She claimed they didnt need counseling, they spoke to her. There has never been anything but complete honesty with my children. Even as my truth has changed. The co dependent child has made huge strides and grows. The other although super intellectual (valor Victorian, law student) has emotional deficiencies and struggles with interpersonal r/s. She seeks me when things get tough. Im glad I finally know what to say and do. Too bad I didnt know sooner but I was doing the best I could. I still recommend therapy and so far they decline. I too will continue to do, the best that I can. Its not too shabby these days and I will encourage my children to live not survive, until Im no longer here.

So how did the dynamic change when you recognized your own codependency?

Again,  I can only speak of myself. When I could truthfully accept this, it was a game changer. Not that much had/could change, in that moment, but at least now I was aware. With my kids, it helped me understand where I was actually helping or enabling. Hard to do something about anything, if you dont understand. In all other r/s. I understand my weaknesses better. I pick up on things that have cause for alarm, not for the other person, but ME. I steer away from my dysfunctional traits, sometimes I see it coming, sometimes not. All becomes corrected as soon as possible. Its helped me look into what attracts me to others, healthy and unhealthy. This too has been a slow process but is also improving ... In a sense I have become big brother to my subconscious and we are still getting to know each other. He has alot of secrets, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

They say that a narc + codependent couple is so dysfunctional that it could lead to BPD in their child.

They say alot of things. Whats important is that EVERY family has dysfunction and all members have a choice in how to deal with it........We can pick our friends but not our family. Getting this right has made my life easier. Thanks for the convo, I wish you well, Peace

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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2020, 02:58:43 PM »

had started counseling while in the r/s, kids were receptive but mom put a squash to it. She claimed they didnt need counseling, they spoke to her. There has never been anything but complete honesty with my children. Even as my truth has changed. The co dependent child has made huge strides and grows. The other although super intellectual (valor Victorian, law student) has emotional deficiencies and struggles with interpersonal r/s. She seeks me when things get tough. Im glad I finally know what to say and do. Too bad I didnt know sooner but I was doing the best I could. I still recommend therapy and so far they decline.

I just realized that you must be older than I am, somehow I assume everyone on the internet is closer to my age +- 5 years, and I asked from the perspective of someone who struggles with his own parents, so for you to share it from that end, it really moved me in a way. If ever my dad who has strong, strong narc traits, said anything closer to what you said, and saw through all of this even in a fraction of how you did, I would drop dead from awe and amazement. You are a really good person, and I bet your kids can feel that energy. And thank you for sharing this, I owe you a beer if you ever come to this part of the world.

On my end, what you all guys said about this just being the beginning of the road and true inner work, you weren't kidding. I guess my impatience got the best of me. The roller-coaster just started. My T kinda hinted at the fact that I need to go through true abandonment trauma in a healthy, corrective way. That maybe the post-exBPD-relationship instability might be subsiding, but as we are getting to the core of the trauma and chronic loneliness, it's nothing compared to the relationship itself. I can literally feel my body burning as we touch on these subjects, and especially when I kinda build a relationship with my T - I can feel the fear of abandonment creeping in a theraputic relationship. Is that a good thing? Is that what they call transference? For a brief moment, when my T said she is going on a "longer break" I felt betrayed just like I did in past relationships. Never had that happen in therapy, don't know what to think about it.
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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2020, 09:56:13 PM »




I can literally feel my body burning as we touch on these subjects, and especially when I kinda build a relationship with my T - I can feel the fear of abandonment creeping in a theraputic relationship. Is that a good thing? Is that what they call transference? For a brief moment, when my T said she is going on a "longer break" I felt betrayed just like I did in past relationships. Never had that happen in therapy, don't know what to think about it.

Yes, this would be transference and good you see this, as all people do this to some extent. Some worse than others, just as all other traits. This would also be growth (congrats). I could imagine having a woman as a therapist could create this situation. Appears its what the doctor ordered, maybe? In treatment of BPD, the therapists takes the place of the punitive parent and attempts to teach a little different, the second time around..........................  Did you see this abandonment in real time, or later on? You have mentioned (doubting yourself) these feeling in previous posts. Seeing them from a different perspective has caused a little confusion. Now is the time to start feeling your way through life a bit more and leaning on your instincts. They are good. Seeing this should open your mind to investigate (objectively) everything you previously thought as truth.


If ever my dad who has strong, strong narc traits, said anything closer to what you said, and saw through all of this even in a fraction of how you did, I would drop dead from awe and amazement. You are a really good person, and I bet your kids can feel that energy. And thank you for sharing this, I owe you a beer if you ever come to this part of the world.


Without the economy crashing (which then lead to the divorce) Im not sure what may have happened? Maybe still in r/s? I always said I would divorce when they graduated. Who knows, but I know Im better for it.  Always good to help those that are attempting to help themselves. Lots of good people just need a nudge in the right direction.......... Anyone I come in contact with, feels my energy. With my kids Ive learned different methods of delivering the message. it works. The energy is either positive or content and still attracts alot of people, some good for me, some not so good. I avoid the stage these days. I have my biggest fan, me............. Im in the United States, you?........ Traveled some out of the country, not planning any, but you never know....I wish you well, Peace




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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2020, 08:20:46 AM »

In treatment of BPD, the therapists takes the place of the punitive parent and attempts to teach a little different, the second time around.


Is that the same for narc/codependents?

Did you see this abandonment in real time, or later on?

There was a 10 second delay before I knew what happened Smiling (click to insert in post)

You have mentioned (doubting yourself) these feeling in previous posts. Seeing them from a different perspective has caused a little confusion.

 You mean the feelings of attaching to the object other?
 If so then yeah, it was like observing an automatic process in what I thought was a completely indepedent brain. Like there are emotions present ready to jump on anyone who is in front of me, especially if it's a laaaady :D

You know what, just by accident I came across at a video on the internet that illustrates the point better than words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=UMassBoston

This video sums up all of my romantic relationship - as creepy as it sounds. Hahaha  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), with an added feature that my ex BPD partners were doing this not as a part of the experiment :D

Im in the United States, you?

Europe.

Anyone I come in contact with, feels my energy.

Can you tell a bit more about that?
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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2020, 06:29:57 PM »

Anyone I come in contact with, feels my energy.

Can you tell a bit more about that?

I can only speak from my perspective. This term also appears to be loaded, and will mean different things to different people. it appears to me when all people converse in any form, the subconscious also speaks. ( i believe body language is subconscious run, unless studied and used as a weapon) It appears in a cryptic way. When Im involved its what I hear, in very close to real time. Others around appear oblivious. Most are, the rest arent paying attention. Similar to you noticing your abandonment fear, while in therapy and being able to name it. I seem to be able analyze it, through deductive reasoning rather quickly at times. Sometimes in real time, or usually fairly soon. Its funny, the ones that take the longest involve my romantic relationships. Its from an indifference standpoint, not good/bad, black/white, just is. It doesnt expect a result. Just observes and asks questions. These questions typically, ask the person to question their own truth. You would be amazed at how many people will have referred to this conversation, as an argument on a later date. Interesting to say the least. Truth is hard to let go. Until you learn to do this objectively. Then I found the bonus of a healthier lifestyle. Actually it was the only possible outcome, if done correctly.....This also took many tries. I didnt count or put any expectations on anything. I just searched. I find new things daily. An inquisitive mind has no time for fear.

In treatment of BPD, the therapists takes the place of the punitive parent and attempts to teach a little different, the second time around.


Is that the same for narc/codependents?


I had the same question. Looking back this was the experience for me, a calm nervousness, but a little bit different sense on how this was going to turn out. A liberating nakedness of sorts. Your posts also seem to echo this.

There was a 10 second delay before I knew what happened

Interesting.... Do this consistently and your perception will have no choice but to change. The conscious will have more control, you live. The subconscious can only survive, everybodys choice, no?

. Like there are emotions present ready to jump on anyone who is in front of me, especially if it's a laaaady :D

Even today I have to watch myself with this. I steer away from crowds and figure out ways to create one on ones, with the laaaaady...Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).  ANIMAL INSTINCTS... Where do they appear in all of this? Slim if not missing.... All women will tell you smells, hormones, first look into eyes (interesting) and other factors play a large role.

Im in the United States, you?

Europe.


I wonder how much cultures play in all of this ? Seems to be some sort of factor, interesting...........I wish you well, Peace

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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2020, 02:51:23 AM »

Excerpt
Here goes: is there a physical type (looks, demeanor, etc. something that you sense or see even without saying a word to them, like first time you see them) of a man/woman who is more likely to be cluster B, toxic, or similar

no.

there is a stereotype (and i emphasize the word stereotype) of the young female with bpd: tattoos. piercings. wild hair. edgy.

in general, if anything, comeliness is not associated with clinical bpd; self destruction is.

Excerpt
I have a type, no question about it.

this is what it really comes down to.

Excerpt
Now, how in the **** does my subconscious pick these people? Is it really about looks, or something different?

you just have a strong association when it comes to who/what youre attracted to.

its kind of like when people say you cant just know who someone is from looking at someones social media. on the contrary, you can tell a lot. you can tell a lot about a person just looking at their prose. you cant tell everything, far from it, of course, but that isnt the point. you can find, or weed out, what youre looking for and are drawn to.

looks, body language, clothing, are no different. you can tell a lot from these things.

Excerpt
is that these people are easy to pick up because of their low self esteem or somethign, or chat up to, and I am no casanova in that regard, so I might somehow be aiming low in terms of effort when meeting people, and hence the effect.

youre probably onto something here.

heres the thing.

at this stage in your life, what you are attracted to is fairly set in place. you have a type, and by and large, you probably always will.

Excerpt
Someone said in this topic, that people usually pick other people that are similarly emotionally available,

we mate with people that are similar in terms of our emotional maturity. this is bowens family systems theory.

our emotional maturity is not fixed in place. it can grow. so while your attractions likely wont change much, what you are drawn to, and ultimately connect with, will very likely change.

that has tended to be the case for me. im still attracted to the same type of girl. some of them are toxic, some are not. the ones that are, im just as attracted to, but the sorts of things that at one time would have drawn me to them tend to repel me. im a different guy, who makes different choices, and is looking for something different.
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
dindin
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2020, 02:41:00 PM »

once removed: thanks for your answer, it resonates a lot. especially the bits about my "type" being pretty much fixed at this point and having to work with what is given and not necessarily fight against it

Having spent the last week or more researching, meditating, doing things against my fear and the comfort zone of inaction, having read the books by pete walker, but mainly from talking with my T specifically about this -- my truth distilled into the realisation that I suffer from cptsd. Up to now, I was kinda stuck between the definitions of codependency and narcissism, but each of them, or even both of them together, weren't enough to explain some things. Not only intellectually, but also in terms of my own intuition. Whereas complext childhood ptsd due to emotional neglect seems like a fit. I understand that these are just words and concepts, but it helps me kinda come to terms with my own borderline traits as well - and it explains it better than any categorization that I came across so far.

Still, cptsd is not a recognised disorder that therapists work with where I live, but my T said that if it makes so much sense to me and to them as well we would try a different approach which is propsed for precisely this problem: a mix of cbt, psychodynamic and trauma healing. And I have been to cbt and psychodynamic separately and they didn't seem to do much for me, whereas even one session of these working in tandem seems to really make a difference for me.

Is anyone familiar with cptsd? Has anyone come to similar realisations? We so often talk here and on the internet in a dichotomy of codependency vs bpd, or codependency vs narcissism, that I was really surprised to see that some effort is being made to have a more inclusive view of all these in terms of trauma. Which on an intellectual and intuitive level really, really resonates with me. Any thoughts?

I also know that some people think of these are just labels, but to have it explained intellectually and also for it to resonate with me intuitively kinda is a big thing for me. And also frees me of this weird (tri-?)dychotomy of narcissism, bpd and codependency, which never felt right forme.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:50:20 PM by dindin » Logged
FindingMe2011
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2020, 08:05:52 AM »

Having spent the last week or more researching, meditating, doing things against my fear and the comfort zone of inaction,

When meditating, does it become a breathing exercise or an out of body experience? Both are healthy, one helped me calm myself (healthy self soothe) the other showed me my fears.......... You cant fight your fears and expect a good outcome, they need to be understood.

having read the books by pete walker, but mainly from talking with my T specifically about this -- my truth distilled into the realization that I suffer from cptsd. Up to now, I was kinda stuck between the definitions of codependency and narcissism, but each of them, or even both of them together, weren't enough to explain some things. Not only intellectually, but also in terms of my own intuition. Whereas complex childhood ptsd due to emotional neglect seems like a fit. I understand that these are just words and concepts, but it helps me kinda come to terms with my own borderline traits as well - and it explains it better than any categorization that I came across so far.

I dont believe I have ever completely agreed with a persons literature on psychology. Ive studied many and seem to take something from many of them. Personally I think CPSTD could be related to almost all mental illnesses. Unfortunately the PC culture has also stagnated mental health, to create outs for the mentally ill (excuses) instead of genuinely helping................ At some point the intellect will do nothing more for you. It will become confusing and have you looking for outs. You need to learn how to feel your way through life. Thinking has gotten you this far. You raising your EQ not IQ is required. The only way to do this is experience them, know them by name, and gain an understanding with them. We only fear what we dont understand.

And I have been to cbt and psychodynamic separately and they didn't seem to do much for me, whereas even one session of these working in tandem seems to really make a difference for me.

It does come down to what you see. Anything that helps you move forward, should be exhausted. If you should become stuck again, try something new.

Is anyone familiar with cptsd? Has anyone come to similar realisations? We so often talk here and on the internet in a dichotomy of codependency vs bpd, or codependency vs narcissism, that I was really surprised to see that some effort is being made to have a more inclusive view of all these in terms of trauma. Which on an intellectual and intuitive level really, really resonates with me. Any thoughts?

For the most part, I believe trauma obtained early in brain development, is what people spend the rest of their lives experiencing.  Finding any just reason to project this trauma. The worse the trauma, the worse the projection. Everybody shows traits of everything, and all have a breaking point. Truly believing this allowed me to let go of labels. It appears to create more confusion by splitting hairs. I found it easier to deal with just INTIMACY/ABANDONMENT.  Nobody yet has convinced me differently. These are the roots and simplifying the origin (gaining the understanding of my past false perception, and why) helped me.

And also frees me of this weird (tri-?) dichotomy of narcissism, bpd and codependency, which never felt right for me.

Thats because they overlap just as all mental illnesses do. They dont work separately, its also a well oiled machine, created just so, to get through a day. .........................I remember pulling these cobwebs off, one at a time, sometimes exposing more of them.... .............. I wish you well, Peace

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