Are we all heading to court?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have tried to read as much as possible (and that's not necessarily a lot, due to time limits) around here. 

It seems that the advice from the veterans here relates to stories of when they, or another person, went to court, then X happened.

In the respected book, Splitting, the advice came clear to me to try everything to avoid court.  But, on this forum, it sounds like that's the only thing driving our divorces.

I've been doing a great deal to avoid court, and have myself a little scared to go anyway.  However, between setting boundaries, and deadlines, as well as having a voice in the divorce, most paths seem to lead to court. 

As a dad, I will just say that I am further concerned with not easily getting 50/50 custody, since my court is not very progressive in that realm. 

I'm making a list of pros and cons for going to court.  Advantages are that I can drive things forward. We're foundering waiting for STBX to have everything she wants before settling.

The cons to court are that it will incite a defensive / aggressive combative response in STBX (legal abuse).  And it will cost more. And take a long time. And studies say that settled and mediated divorces are better for the kids and co-parents future.

I'm looking at my reality and telling myself, that right now, I am getting the cons of going to court already.  She's delaying, which runs up the bills with each response or issue.  She's already adopted a passive-aggressive, victim mentality, and has recruited her lawyer to maybe see me as the devil (they seem to feed each  other at this point). And, under it all, I can't say a mediated divorce will be any better for the kids. 

So, I'm looking at my pros and cons, and just about to say let's go to court.  I'm already suffering. But, then I am concerned with leaving the wisdom given in Splitting behind.

How is everyone here balancing the pros and cons?
Did someone actually have a mediated divorce?

I was on here many months ago discussing mediation.  In the meantime, I am discovering over and over that STBX might just not have what it takes to mediate.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I have tried to read as much as possible (and that's not necessarily a lot, due to time limits) around here. 

It seems that the advice from the veterans here relates to stories of when they, or another person, went to court, then X happened.

In the respected book, Splitting, the advice came clear to me to try everything to avoid court.  But, on this forum, it sounds like that's the only thing driving our divorces.

I've been doing a great deal to avoid court, and have myself a little scared to go anyway.  However, between setting boundaries, and deadlines, as well as having a voice in the divorce, most paths seem to lead to court. 

As a dad, I will just say that I am further concerned with not easily getting 50/50 custody, since my court is not very progressive in that realm. 

I'm making a list of pros and cons for going to court.  Advantages are that I can drive things forward. We're foundering waiting for STBX to have everything she wants before settling.

The cons to court are that it will incite a defensive / aggressive combative response in STBX (legal abuse).  And it will cost more. And take a long time. And studies say that settled and mediated divorces are better for the kids and co-parents future.

I'm looking at my reality and telling myself, that right now, I am getting the cons of going to court already.  She's delaying, which runs up the bills with each response or issue.  She's already adopted a passive-aggressive, victim mentality, and has recruited her lawyer to maybe see me as the devil (they seem to feed each  other at this point). And, under it all, I can't say a mediated divorce will be any better for the kids. 

So, I'm looking at my pros and cons, and just about to say let's go to court.  I'm already suffering. But, then I am concerned with leaving the wisdom given in Splitting behind.

How is everyone here balancing the pros and cons?
Did someone actually have a mediated divorce?

I was on here many months ago discussing mediation.  In the meantime, I am discovering over and over that STBX might just not have what it takes to mediate.

[GaGrl]

Many people here have found that having one's lawyer set a court date was the factor that led to serious negotiations toward a settlement. You can set a court date and continue to work toward an agreement -- but the reality of the court date remains.

Some people settled within 24 hours of the court date. One settled the morning of the court appearance -- literally inside the courthouse.

My H's ex was being intractable on several items. He finally told her, " Fine. We'll let the judge decide, and I'll tell my lawyer to book a court date. "  She didn't want anyone to look closely at her business, so H had settlement papers signed within three days.

[SamwizeGamgee]

So often I hear that, and not just these forums, other divorce boards too.
The steps of the courthouse deals that go through.  Sometimes I hear of those agreements being better off for the giver than the original offer was.

I haven't filed.  I'm trying to keep things calm.  To get a date, I think I'd have to file.  to file would be to light up STBX and catch heck.  ..
...
Which really, after all these years, and all the antics now, looks like just another day at the office.

[mart555]

Court or not doesn't depend on you.  It's mostly up to the ex.  You can walk on eggshells as much as you want but eventually the stress just piles up and they explode when they face reality.

What I recommend is to prepare for mediation in a way that most of what you do can be used in court later.  It's a bit more effort, but likely less time wasted in the end. 

[MeandThee29]

We threatened, but didn't go to court.

Negotiations were stalled way down in the weeds. It had been going really nowhere for a month. It was a completely reasonable settlement. We gave them 24 hours to sign, or "see you in court." By then I think I could have handled it, but my attorney thought only the threat was needed.

His attorney told him, "Sign or I quit." That did it.

There was another time in closeout when my attorney threatened that with his. We had reason to believe that his attorney may have not communicated that, and that it just lit a fire under his attorney that was needed. It was signed shortly after that. Then two other times when we were actively talking about it, and it was signed. My attorney observed that attorneys don't like to take certain types of clients (these) to court and will sometimes do all they can to settle a case to end it. So sometimes the threat motivates a client and sometimes it's the attorney you are motivating.

As others said, it's a tool that you can always pull back on. In my area divorce trials are always booked 5-6 months ahead because they calendars are packed. Keep in mind that most attorneys require a large deposit for trial prep that you may or may not use. Mine always refunded that if it settled out of court, but be sure to read your retainer paperwork.   

[alleyesonme]

As others have said, I think the threat of a looming court date can suddenly and magically force BP's into action. I'm in the middle of a divorce right now, and I know my stbEX must be terrified of having to testify in a hearing or at trial, so I think that gives me some leverage in the long run.

I obviously don't know all of the details of your situation, but after what your stbEX has put you through, I think it makes sense to get the legal system on your side to start to turn the tables in your favor.

[defogging]

Mine is another case where just the threat of going to court made everything move along swiftly.  I filed, there was a month or two with a lot of noise from the other side, then a deal was signed in one mediation session.  Looking back, I'm pretty sure my ex's lawyer steered her heavily towards settling.  My ex behaved pretty crazily in the early days of the divorce, by the end her lawyer was making excuses for exPDw's behavior more than accusing me of anything.  I think her lawyer wanted nothing to do with explaining away her behavior to a judge.

In my situation it wasn't really any threats of court from my lawyer that made things move, just the reality that the court system was setting dates and they were going to be kept.  The more my ex stalled, the closer we got to having everything exposed in front of a judge, which provided motivation for a settlement.

I learned through the process that courts and judges aren't something to be feared, but rather a tool to be utilized.  My brain was so scrambled when I filed and I was extremely frightened of all the false accusations that could keep me from my kids, but slowly reality was re-inserted and it became clear how upside down the world was within our marriage.  Divorce is a terrible process to go through, but after the marriage and divorce I now know the best thing my ex can do for me is open her mouth, then everyone sees what's really going on.

[misterblister]

SamwizeGamgee, I was about to book a mediation hearing but my STBX is already waffling and sending troubling mixed signals.

Two decades ago before I married her, I ignored a still, small voice that told me she was an unhealthy person. Here I am again assuming she is basically a good and fair person who is going to do the right thing by our children, because in my mind that is who I married and fell in love with.

Thankfully the small voice is back and has loudly told me I am wrong. Her proven behavior in situations like this--situations I walked on eggshells to avoid this entire marriage--have always revealed a childish, self-righteous, self-centered, vindictive person.

My thinking is if my STBX throws away relationships with good people and  hurts our children emotionally when she's mildly offended, just imagine what she is capable of when facing the massive rejection and financial insecurity of divorce!

That is where I am at. I know nothing about the process otherwise*, but I would encourage you to do your best to see her as she is based on everything you know and have experienced. I can't afford to allow my denial to cloud the reality of this battle.

To my mind, I have already screwed up marriage so I will not screw up the divorce, certainly not due to nice guy syndrome. Tragically our courts and culture are stacked against fathers, so I feel I have no choice but to be the bad guy here and let her revel in playing the victim, which is fine with me if it means my mental health and that of my children is safer and healthier in the long run.

I will be seeing an attorney soon and making sure they understand what she is capable of, and then act accordingly based on their expertise.

* The mensdivorce.com forum certainly put fear into me and got me thinking hard about what to do. So many countless stories of men tortured and dragged by legal horses for years by vindictive exes, many of whom obviously have BPD. A lot of the guys were clearly nice guys who never saw it coming. That site offers a hyper-aggressive guide called "the list" that pulls no punches and insists you must absolutely file first or prepare to fight a losing battle. (The list assumes its readers can afford hulk lawyers).

[MeandThee29]

I learned through the process that courts and judges aren't something to be feared, but rather a tool to be utilized.  My brain was so scrambled when I filed and I was extremely frightened of all the false accusations that could keep me from my kids, but slowly reality was re-inserted and it became clear how upside down the world was within our marriage.  Divorce is a terrible process to go through, but after the marriage and divorce I now know the best thing my ex can do for me is open her mouth, then everyone sees what's really going on.

Yes, my whole perspective on attorneys and judges has changed. I had worked with attorneys before on other areas, but sitting across from a very powerful divorce attorney (40+ years of experience) was quite an experience. I realized that he was watching every tiny movement and nuance as we talked (shiver) in the early appointments. But over time he was much more relaxed, and I figured that he had measured me and decided that I was OK. Then the appointments were actually very pleasant.

He scared me a little in the initial interview when he went over reasons that might drop a client, but I understand now that he focused his work on a certain kind of client. Multiple times he said that he preferred to leave the bad clients to other attorneys and would have dropped my ex in the first interview.

He assured me that judges are just attorneys with certain experience and qualifications, and that he would prepare me extremely well and be there the whole time. His dad had been a judge. So I was less afraid of that later, and then of course never went. Now everything is done online with the attorney and client sitting in the attorney's conference room. That probably is easier for some people.

Another close-out issue was resolved last week, and I'm getting closer to the end of the end.

[ForeverDad]

Dear friend, you've been here for years.  We could figure the eventual outcome... divorce is the only solution, however imperfect it might be.  But you had to come to that realization and acceptance.

Ponder... do you think it would have been better to divorce five years ago, or now?  Five years ago you weren't ready and perhaps not positioned well enough to start.  But just think, if you had started 2 or 3 years ago, most likely by now a divorce would have been final.

But we can't make your choices for you.  You have well intended peer support.  We'll be here every time you need us.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you FD.  I have come to know and value so many wise voices here.  Yours is one of the clear and consistent voices.  Thanks again.

I can't say I'm rushing into this - that's for sure. It took me a few years of deciding, and then backing off from divorce. Then I reached a point at which I knew I was going to divorce, but was willing to sacrifice myself for an undetermined number of years in order to be present for the kids. Then, I realized that being a hollow dad in a house in which I'm not a real person, was not the solution.  It was short-term stoicism for no long term benefit.  And yes, every year of marriage - and I mean every year, every anniversary - was a year I looked back at, and told myself that last year would have been a better year to divorce.  I just kept my spiral going. 

After all this, I have pulled the proverbial trigger on divorce. What the same slow, quiet voice is asking now is if there's any real hope of a settlement, or, am I headed to court. 

Last week my lawyer was pointing out the negatives of filing and going to court instead of working on a settlement.  She told me, as though to discourage me, that it would be  year before a court date, then arguments in trial, a few months for the judge to rule, then a few months of motions, and then things that needed to be done if not settled - like selling the house under court order.  It's funny, later that day I was relieved to imagine that in the year 2022, or even 2021, I might be actually divorced. I guess things taking a "long time" is perspective.

My hunch is to not work on settlement.  Not worry about a serious settlement offer (that she has promised shortly). I could spend another several months, and thousands upon thousands of dollars, working and waiting on settlement offers, back and forth.  Only in the end to reach the same no-go issues.  And then have to resort to filing and going to court.

[alleyesonme]

Nothing wrong with preparing mentally and strategically as if you're headed for trial, but being open to settling at some point. Deadlines are often what it takes to get deals done, so it's possible that your stbEX will budge more as trial day approaches.

[MeandThee29]

It's a mess, for sure. I tried to negotiate with my ex on my own on his self-written agreement for several months, and then I hired my attorney as a consultant because I was getting very nervous. Finally, I was so uncomfortable that I emailed the actual document to my attorney, and he immediately emailed back that I needed an office appointment.

We decided to have him write a legal document based on the reasonable parts we had negotiated. When the document was done, I went to the office to sign it, and he gave it to his paralegal to be mailed to my ex with a cover letter that he was taking over. I wish now I had just done that at the beginning, but lesson learned.

Then he wanted to get a court date. I freaked out. I was NOT emotionally ready for that. I know now from later discussions that he felt like an exceptionally strong blow was needed, but he respected my desire to put that on hold. He did say that trying for a negotiated settlement should go no longer than 4-5 months. If it went beyond that, it probably wouldn't be effective. He strongly recommended against mediation. From reading the self-written agreement, he said that my ex was too unwilling and unreasonable.

Five months later, we threatened court and got it signed.

In your calculations, count on closeout as well. There was more of the same ugly games. I'm currently waiting on pieces that got tied up in closed offices and bureaucracies. One involved yet another drama flare but is moving again, hopefully to be finalized by January. The other is supposedly in the final approval stage. If we don't hear anything in the next few weeks, we may have a problem. Thankfully my attorney (now the original attorney's associate) has an excellent paralegal who is largely handling things, so my bills are just a few hundred a month when I need them.