He took s4

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Our court system and everything has failed.  He took S4 and now he's not giving him back.  I spent all day trying to negotiate and talk him out of it with no prevail.  He's throwing his weight around and keeps saying they will give him custody. 

He blames me for destroying the family.  He tells me if I had just tried harder.  He tells me that if I had just waited, he's making more money.  He says he's going to get the assault charge dropped because it was an accident.

I didn't go to sleep till almost midnight.  I am exhausted from crying and trying to get my son back.

Then he sends a message out telling everyone that S4 is safe and home.  He tells me that his buddies say "now the balls in your court, oh, now she wants to talk".

I hate him.  I wish everything he stands for burns to the ground.  Oh.. the cherry on top.  His estranged mother and him mended ties.  I knew the day was coming, even though I hoped it hadn't.  She is telling him that I mean to her and this and that.

I'm at my ropes end and I just want to lay down and go to sleep.

[Frankee]

Our court system and everything has failed.  He took S4 and now he's not giving him back.  I spent all day trying to negotiate and talk him out of it with no prevail.  He's throwing his weight around and keeps saying they will give him custody. 

He blames me for destroying the family.  He tells me if I had just tried harder.  He tells me that if I had just waited, he's making more money.  He says he's going to get the assault charge dropped because it was an accident.

I didn't go to sleep till almost midnight.  I am exhausted from crying and trying to get my son back.

Then he sends a message out telling everyone that S4 is safe and home.  He tells me that his buddies say "now the balls in your court, oh, now she wants to talk".

I hate him.  I wish everything he stands for burns to the ground.  Oh.. the cherry on top.  His estranged mother and him mended ties.  I knew the day was coming, even though I hoped it hadn't.  She is telling him that I mean to her and this and that.

I'm at my ropes end and I just want to lay down and go to sleep.

[formflier]

 

How did he get your son?


Best,

FF

[Frankee]

There is no protective order or custody order in place and everyone keeps telling me that since his name is on the birth certificate, he has just as much right to S4.  Even though he doesn't have the birth certificate.  I was on my way to pick up the boys when he told.me that he picked up S4.  The daycare just let him take him because that's his dad.  They boys went there before and they've seen him.  What I don't understand is why they just let him go.

[ForeverDad]

The only thing with teeth is a court order.  (Even then it can be difficult to get enforcement.  But a court order is the first step.)  Otherwise it's a virtual free-for-all with "possession" being the trump card.

You've been hoping for a protective order.  That's been delayed or maybe even impractical with the slow courts.  Is it time to file for divorce, present your documentation and make your case to the judge or magistrate for a very limited parenting schedule in the temp order?  If drugs or alcohol had been a problem before, then you could ask for random testing or testing before his parenting time.

He's changed tactics a bit, he probably sees parenting as a way to (1) claim he's a good dad and (2) get back at you for reporting and supporting a DV case against him.

Time to get some legal advice for options.

[formflier]

Exactly.

Big deep inhale and exhale. 

In the eyes of the law (as things stand now), it's unlikely to make a case that he did anything wrong or you for that matter (when you "took") S4.

Wild wild west.

Uggg

Can you make a call again for the protective order and/or legal aid?

Best,

FF

[CoherentMoose]

Sorry to hear about the set-back.  Breathe, find a way to get sleep.  Eat well, exercise.  It's a long game.  Keep your eye on the prize.  Have a vision of your wished for end state and keep it front and center.  Make a plan and execute.  Start with small steps.  When (not if) you have to change the plan, change it and start again.  Small steps every day.  The advice in here is first rate. 

But the first priority is to make sure your as healthy and strong as you can be for your children.  You can do this.  Good luck.  CM

[I Am Redeemed]

Frankee, I am so sorry.

Can you contact the da, the shelter,  anyone in legal services?


My ex took my son the day I left. I tried calling child protective services but they didn't even try to make contact with him for two days and by then I had already gotten my son back. The only reason I got him back was because my ex had assaulted me the day I left and I reported it to the police who arrested him that night and returned my son.

Who is he going to get to watch your son while he works? His mother?

I hope you are documenting all of this and I hope you can get the protection order soon. This absolutely frustrates me to no end so I know you must just be horrified and angry.

And people wonder why dv victims don't "just leave "... when they do, the support and protection necessary for them is severely lacking.

[ForeverDad]

There is a term called ROFR — Right of First Refusal.  Sadly, it only appears in court orders, if requested or ordered.  What it means is that the parent in possession must make parenting time available to the other parent when the parent will not be personally parenting for more than a certain length of time.

This can be a two edged sword if that rule would apply to both of you and not just him.  I had one for a few years, it was helpful in the early years of separation and divorce posturing.  My version excluded school and daycare hours.

During the negotiation of a child custody agreement, a parent will sometimes ask whether he/she can have the “right of first refusal.” The idea is that if one parent is unable to care for the child during his/her designated custodial period, the other parent must be given the opportunity to care for the child before entrusting the child to the care of a third party.

Some issues with it are listed here:
https://www.lgtlegal.com/news/Is-the-Right-of-First-Refusal-a-Good-Idea-for-Child-Custody-Agreements-_168-news.htm

[worriedStepmom]

I'm so sorry, Frankee.  I know this has to be horrifying for you.

Do you think your ex will actually keep S4 long, or do you think he'll get tired of parenting and/or tired of playing the game when you don't cooperate?

At this point, it sounds like you have written documentation that your ex picked up S4 in large part just to manipulate you.  A judge is NOT going to like this.

Which means we have to try to get it to a judge ASAP.

[Frankee]

Thank you for all the support and feedback.  I have been trying to talk him out of it.  He isn't being reasonable.   I have a friend who is going to help me with a lawyer.  I think he is going to get tired.  He didn't even want to watch them two days while I went to work.  He's doing all of this to get my attention and force me to work it out.

He says he found a babysitter that has already met S4 and he likes her.  He won't tell me who.

I hate the fact it is the weekend and I can't do anything until Monday.  My head is killing me and I just want to go to sleep.

I'm going to have to do serious self care this weekend  Come Monday I need to be sharp.  I can already tell he isn't going to be willing to just give him back.  He wants to be heard and until he "feels" I won't  keep them against, he isn't budging.  He admitted he's a nervous wreck and he should be.  He knows he's messed up and he's hoping he can go back to how it was before.

[GaGrl]

He needs to make it through the weekend doing full childcare, and it won't be easy. At some point, he is going to want a way to bring S4 back and make it look like his idea and that he is doing you a favor. That's fine -- let him think that.

Also, my bet is that S4 will start asking when he can go home to mommy.I

In the meantime...yes, self-care so that you are super-sharp on Monday.

[Frankee]

I had a small window of hope.  He was going to drop him off on Tuesday.  By some messed up chance, he got served the PO papers today and now he is completely freaked out.  Refusing to give S4 back. 

It's only a matter of time before I hear from his family about the whole situation.  It's only a matter of time before he sends out his stupid group messages to his family and my parents about the crazy stuff I am doing to him.

I have been through a lot, but my gut tells me I need to be prepared for a downright nasty fight.  He has left a few voice-mail.  The last one was him crying about why am I doing this.  He has already blamed me for splitting the boys (when he took s4) and for hurting everyone (because I left him.. he really said that), and telling me I am messed up because of my ex before.

He's throwing some hard punches, but I have a level head and a good friend backing me up.  I know at this point, with the PO and the assault cases, I just need to put my faith in the courts seeing the truth.  He's not going to go lightly and already talked about me being in perjury?  I don't know he attempts to prove that.

[I Am Redeemed]

Every single thing you outlined that he said to you is exactly like what my ex said to me. It's really uncanny how similar the tactics are.

Do you have to communicate with his family? You could block them if they buy into his narrative and start harassing you with the "why are you doing this to him" crap. He's triangulating with them.

Save all the voicemails. It sounds like he's building your own case for you if he changed his mind about dropping off S4 after he got served with PO papers.

Is the PO for just you, or are the kids included on it? If they are, and it gets granted, he will be ordered to give him back.

Any chance of talking to legal services anytime soon?

[formflier]

Is the PO for just you, or are the kids included on it? If they are, and it gets granted, he will be ordered to give him back.
 

And so by "served papers", does that mean the PO is active an in force now?

 

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

The PO is for me and the kids.  I think that's why he freaked out and changed his mind.  He got served the paperwork, but nothing goes into effect until the judge decides what to do.  The hearing Nov 5th.

He flip flops on what he is doing.  Yesterday he blasted stuff all over Facebook about being a single parents, saying goodbye to S9, and a giant post about a narcissist.. which he didn't mention my name, but it was directed at me.  I have a second social media account that is strictly for the DV groups and I was able to see what he posted.

I don't really think he wants to keep S4.  He has made comments after the PO paperwork has been served that I have read between the lines.  Yesterday he said he was going to block my number, saying goodbye to S9 on social media, told me he didn't think I was a good mom.. blah blah.. now he's completely changed his tune... as usual.

[Frankee]

Oh wow!  I can't even.. I don't even know where to start!  His mother.. his mother!  Is after me now!  That woman that I was nothing but nice to and tried to get exbph to have a relationship with.. has now taken full fledged stand with her son and telling me how wrong I am!  All because he visited with her once!  And now she declares that he has changed!

I can't even... the attacks are starting to happen.  Please pray for my strength and my sanity.

[Cat Familiar]

Well you know what they say about blood being thicker than water. It’s understandable that she’d like to believe he’s changed—he’s her boy, no matter what.

You know him, and how much effort he previously put into being a dad. A four year old is a lot of work, as you well understand. Sounds like he’s grandstanding and trying to elicit sympathy

So sorry. Stay strong. Court is only a couple weeks away.  :hug

[GaGrl]

I can't imagine a judge will be happy if your H appears for a protective order that includes the kids, having taken one of the kids from the very situation meant to protect them.

It would benefit him to return S4 well before the court appearance, but his mother might be enabling him and letting him think he/they can do it. You know he can't.

[Frankee]

He's trying to get me to drop it.. I can feel it in his messages.  He throws his weight around and threatens me and the very next day he is trying to work something out.

I ignored his mom.  She's taking it way to far.  I told the DA everything and I honestly didn't think he ever sexually assaulted me, but when I told them about things that happened, they told me that is classified as sexual assault.  Now she's screaming at me.. why are you saying my son raped you?  Saying I have serious problems, why am I doing this to exbph, asked me why I kept going back if I knew there were problems, I married him, I had a kid with him...  just all the stuff spouted off by someone who has no idea what really happened.. it's just unreal.  I asked the DA for a copy of the PO.

I told my close girl friend about it and she says she would of bust down his door and taken S4 back.  I had to explain to her how I know that would go down so bad, especially when I have been in physical fights with him and tried to take S4 when he threw me out last year.

There was a moment where exbph warned me about what would happen if I left.  He even tried to say if I hadn't left him, nobody would of gotten hurt.  I feel like I'm d@mn Alice in Wonderland on a bad acid trip.

[Cat Familiar]

He’s on the losing end and he knows it. He’s doing everything he can think of to manipulate you. He will soon get tired of the parenting duties and he will be hoping you take your son back. But until then, he’s thinking that he can make you suffer and then be compliant with his demands.

Discount his mother—it sounds like you’re already doing that. Her allegiance is with her son, regardless of his history or his behavior.

And follow the letter of the law. I know it’s hard right now, but you want to do everything right and the court will see who is the responsible and appropriate parent.

[ForeverDad]

His mother.. his mother!  Is after me now!.. And now she declares that he has changed!

He's changed?  Ha!  You know he needs extensive long term therapy — and even that may not improve him.  And probably you can't convince her, maybe she will see reality when he reverts, maybe not.  As the saying goes, blood is often thicker than water.

Promises can't be trusted, only actions/improvements over the long term.

He’s on the losing end and he knows it. He’s doing everything he can think of to manipulate you.

And follow the letter of the law. I know it’s hard right now, but you want to do everything right and the court will see who is the responsible and appropriate parent.

Yes, follow the law but don't go too far.  By that I mean is you don't have to be super fair or overly fair imagining court will be impressed how nice you are.  You're a mama bear (finally!) standing up for herself and her children.  More or less there's a saying I learned here and it's often true... The parent behaving poorly often doesn't experience too much in the way of consequences, and the parent behaving well often doesn't experience too much in the way of credit.

So don't let him convince you to weaken your justified boundaries.  Best not to get into deep conversations with him, you won't convince him and there's risk he might manipulate/pressure you into making a legal retreat.  You  don't want to retreat into the past patterns.

Review the proposed terms of the PO.  Are there any impractical terms?  Likely it limits what contact he can have with you, including the conversations.  It's usually best to limit the contact to only the necessary items, usually just about appropriate child information and exchange details.

[formflier]

So...the "draft" PO is out there but isn't in effect..right?  (my state does it differently.  They normally issue ex parte and then have a quick hearing to modify)

When is the hearing?

Status of talking to legal aid about L.

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

He's changed?  Ha!  You know he needs extensive long term therapy — and even that may not improve him.

Review the proposed terms of the PO.  Are there any impractical terms?  Likely it limits what contact he can have with you, including the conversations.  It's usually best to limit the contact to only the necessary items, usually just about appropriate child information and exchange details.

His mother is just as delusional as he is.

He even said in a text message that he was going to give S4 back until.he got served the papers.. I really keep thinking.. what $h!t timing.  I am praying it happened this way for a reason. 

I glanced over the PO, but didn't read it in depth.  I was a little nervous honestly.  I need to read it closer though.

Until then, he’s thinking that he can make you suffer and then be compliant with his demands.

And follow the letter of the law. I know it’s hard right now, but you want to do everything right and the court will see who is the responsible and appropriate parent.

I discovered something I can do on my phone.  I can mute notifications for text message for specific people (got a new phone).  It's a pretty nifty feature. I muted it for him.  That way I don't get random notifications from him and his crazy $$ and drive myself crazy.  This way, when I am in a calm, collected, and prepared state of mind.. I check the messages he sends.  My state of mental health has improved since I did this.

So...the "draft" PO is out there but isn't in effect..right?  (my state does it differently.  They normally issue ex parte and then have a quick hearing to modify)

When is the hearing?

It's a draft.  Out court hearing is Nov 5th and the DA said nothing is enforceable until the judge makes a ruling.  It's very hard to keep myself together, but the date is approaching.  I know he's losing it.   I know he's afraid.  He flip flops back from being nice/wanting to figure something out, on the completely opposite side where he tries to make me feel like complete garbage for doing this to the kids.

[GaGrl]

Keep this at the forefront of your thinking over the next few weeks...

You are not "doing this" to your sons. Your H has created this situation, and it is not playing out as he wants.

[I Am Redeemed]

This way, when I am in a calm, collected, and prepared state of mind.. I check the messages he sends.  My state of mental health has improved since I did this.

Two years of no contact and my phone still stays on silent almost 100% of the time because the sound of a notification sets off my nervous system. It's directly related to receiving messages from my ex.

I think it's really good that you have your phone set to this. It keeps you from being tethered to taking in communication from him anytime he feels like sending it.

Definitely save that text because it is proof that he is vindictively keeping S4 from you in retaliation for you setting a boundary around being physically abused by him. It is also proof that he is still engaging in active abusive behavior because taking your son and withholding him like this matches the recognized pattern that abusers follow.

I had to go to court to get my protection order too. The paperwork was filed and my ex was actually in jail when it was served. The judge asked me why I wanted it, I told him briefly some of the physically violent things my ex had done as well as how he had used meth in the house while my son was present. He asked my ex if it was true, he said yes, and that was it. I don't know what would have happened if my ex denied it. But there was a police report and pictures of my injuries, and he was in jail because of the assault, so I don't know what they would have done.

His mother does sound like she is believing what she wants to believe. It's frustrating when there are people who buy the bs someone else is selling. Don't let it distract you from your truth. It does not matter in the long run whether she believes you or not. My ex tried very hard to convince lots of people that I was the crazy one. He still lives in a world where he is the victim despite all evidence to the contrary.

The court date is not that long away. Stay strong and speak your truth clearly.

[Frankee]

I'm having a real hard time today.  I don't know if others heard of the term dog whistling in abuse.. but I feel that way today.

He somehow videochatted with S9 off my old phone that I gave him to play games on, but doesn't have service.  I recorded everything that was said.

He keeps trying to figure out where I am at.  Before my court date, I am sitting down at my desk (finally got some furniture.. yay!) And going through everything.  I need to build a strong case and having him repeatedly try to find out where I am, isn't going to look good on him.  I am praying the courts will see I have constantly tried to thwart attempts from him to try to figure out where I am.

I really need to focus on getting some legal assistance this upcoming week.  Tonight I need to make a serious list.

I spent a good half hour in my bathroom crying because I could hear the underlining abuse, but my 9 year old is just a child.  H goes from telling me.. saying he doesn't want to see S9 and he's only worrying about his sin (S4) to.. talking to S9, telling him that he's his best buddy and loves him very much and is going to keep trying...  this is why I am going crazy.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello Franklee.  When reading your last post I was reminded of the term "flying monkeys" in reference to everything he is trying.  In my humble opinion, it's showing desperation.  His strength, his playing field is to engage you personally.  Your challenge is to ensure you stay away from his playing field and play to your strengths.  My GF had a similar issue and actually saw her ex walking around her condo looking for where she had "escaped" to.  The fortunate thing for my GF was a text to her ex stating he's been seen stalking and any further attempts at stalking would result in a TRO.  He was very afraid of a TRO as they were starting the process of divorce so he stopped trying to find out where she was. 

As for the old phone, it has two links to the "outside world", the cell link from a cell provider and WiFi connection to the internet.  I'm guessing you have not disabled the WiFi feature on the phone.  That is a weakness in your defensive wall and should be addressed.  What sort of games does your son play on the phone?  Can they be downloaded to the phone and then the phone put on Airplane mode?  Would your son know how to disable airplane mode?  I highly recommend you find a way to plug that weakness ASAP for the near term until you are better fortified legally.  Good luck.  CoMo

[Frankee]

Hello Franklee.  When reading your last post I was reminded of the term "flying monkeys" in reference to everything he is trying.  In my humble opinion, it's showing desperation.  His strength, his playing field is to engage you personally.  Your challenge is to ensure you stay away from his playing field and play to your strengths.  My GF had a similar issue and actually saw her ex walking around her condo looking for where she had "escaped" to.  The fortunate thing for my GF was a text to her ex stating he's been seen stalking and any further attempts at stalking would result in a TRO.  He was very afraid of a TRO as they were starting the process of divorce so he stopped trying to find out where she was. 

As for the old phone, it has two links to the "outside world", the cell link from a cell provider and WiFi connection to the internet.  I'm guessing you have not disabled the WiFi feature on the phone.  That is a weakness in your defensive wall and should be addressed.  What sort of games does your son play on the phone?  Can they be downloaded to the phone and then the phone put on Airplane mode?  Would your son know how to disable airplane mode?  I highly recommend you find a way to plug that weakness ASAP for the near term until you are better fortified legally.  Good luck.  CoMo

I messaged my girl friend in complete tears.  I told her I felt like I was fighting a losing battle.  I keep trying to remind myself that he may have a lot of people convinced of what kind of person I am, but he doesn't have the actual support I do.  I have four voicemails and if you had played them out in one complete voice recording.. you would think the person had schizophrenia the way they were all over the place.

He wants to keep using me leaving once a year, taking the boys out of school, out of state, shelters, moving around as ways to be slanderious and make me feel horrible.  Sometimes it works, sometimes I remind myself I was trying to get away.

I took the phone and looked it over.  He did go through Wifi and did a Google Duo Video Chat.  He even tried doing that my phone, but I declinded it.  I went onto the phone and blocked his number so he won't be able to call through Google Duo.  Him asking inappropriate questions to S9 because I wouldn't tell him is messed up.  I can't even tell my 9 year old our address or point out the name because I am scared he will accidentally tell exbph.  That's a constant state of stress.  You know S9 lied and told H that our neighbor was a woman... I never said for him to lie about the gender.. but he knew from what H has asked previously, it would upset H.

[Frankee]

Today:  13 calls, 1 video chat with S9, was able to chat with S4
Yesterday: 20 calls

Voicemail.. Can we just say sorry and start over.  Can we just be friends.  Can we just move forward.  Can we just share them.  I want to do 50/50, where we share the kids.

Voicemail..  Fine, I am done.  I am done with your lies about being in danger, we will just go to court, you take what you have, I will take, but I am just done.  I think you have gone off the deep end, I think you need professional help, and I have told you I don't want to be with you.

[Frankee]

I read an article on a case that happened where a mother lost custody of her children.  Something stuff out to me.  She was protrayed as anger, hostile, unreasonable, parental alientation, emotional issues.  It scared me.  It made me realize that effects of abuse can manifest in ways that can actually harm the victim when it's taken to court.  She lost her kids because after of enduring years of abuse, she was suffering from the effects and it made her look like the unstable one.

I decided to listen to everyone hear and focus on what I can handle.  I could spend day in and day out, crying and trying to shoo away the flying monkeys.  Or.. I can focus at the matter at hand.

Maybe I can get feedback on this approach.  Not listen to the garbage noise, but focus on the issues.  It's all about the kids.  He has made that clear.  Now.  My goal is to get them both back here living with me, going to school and daycare here.  He can see him on his days off.  I am trying to switch gears and from here out, stop getting roped into a you did this, you did that pi$$ing contest.  If something upsets me, I type out a message and I review the text to edit for emotional offsets.  I am trying to elminate his ability to know when something upsets me and try to feed off that emotion to get what he wants.

I think it is best to show that I am really thinking of what's best for the boys and weven though I am trying to figure it out still, I know that going about things the way I have, haven't been working.