Getting desperate

[merelytrying]

 

First of all, I love my husband. We've been together 10 years, and he's been emotionally abusive (off and on) for most of that time. I sincerely believe, though, that he has no idea what he's doing wrong. I only recently began to read things about BPD, and it sounds very familiar... emotional instability, intense fear of abandonment, severe outbursts of anger, paranoia, impulsivity, and pattern of unstable relationships. He's not suicidal, though, and I'm not positive about the feelings of emptiness...

I would like to stop walking on eggshells, but I've been doing it so long, and I'm kind of a nervous wreck right now. Getting a good night's sleep more often would help... he tends to wake me up several times a night for various reasons (to get him a tylenol or a glass of water, he's heard a suspicious noise outside, he gets up and decides to put dishes away, etc).

From what I understand, if he has BPD, he won't be able to understand my point of view if he's in the middle of an episode... so I'm trying to stop arguing or reasoning with him at that point. I'm here to try to figure out what else I can do. Suggesting we get therapy did NOT go well, because he can't admit that there's a problem.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I'm so glad you found us.  We "get it" and I'm positive we can help you sort through all these issues.

My first reaction to your post is "Oh my, we've got to help her get a better nights sleep." 

What would you like to work on first?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Finding a way to have some emotional stability would certainly be nice... I know sleep would help, but the whole BPD thing is a huge revelation for me... I need to be able to deal with those emotions honestly somewhere, and home is not a safe place to do that. I pulled into a parking garage today so that I could cry without my husband getting annoyed or thinking I'm attacking him (which is lately what he says I'm doing if I'm anxious/fearful/tearful).

It's not just that I'm admitting the abuse for the first time to anyone, it's the knowledge that all of his quirky personality traits actually add up to something, and he's not going to just get better any time soon. But it IS a relief to know there are strategies I can employ to at least help a bit. This week, I've stopped trying to correct him or reason with him when he's wrong, and that's helped a lot.

[formflier]

  This week, I've stopped trying to correct him or reason with him when he's wrong, and that's helped a lot.

Figuring this out and helping the relationship is a lot like peeling an onion.  Figure something out, look behind that layer, see how that changes things and start working on the next layer.

Your hubby is still adjusting to the new you for changes that have only being going on for a week.  Very wise changes by the way.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=191788.0;all

Is validation and invalidation a new concept to you?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

It's not a new concept... but I realize now that I haven't been doing a good enough job for either myself or my husband. I didn't understand that he really DOES need all that extra validation... that he really can't help overreacting to little things... that he really doesn't understand that I still love him... that the occasional paranoia is part and parcel of the same thing... that he really does feel the need to tell those little white lies for people to like him... and the same for the planned topics of conversation before we visit someone. And so many other things. It all started to sound so utterly ridiculous to me that I wasn't taking it seriously, and certainly not validating those feelings nearly often enough. And on the flip side, dissociation has too often been my method of coping. I knew quite well that I was doing it, but still chose not to deal with things. SO I have a lot of work to do!

Everything I read on this site and others just reinforces my belief that my husband has BPD... that bit in the last article about being both over empathetic and under empathetic was just one more. Also my new information today was that his sleep problems and chronic pain could potentially be related. Amazing. All of this is such a revelation!

[once removed]

validation is central...our loved ones tend to need more of it than your average person.

at the same time, id stress two concepts:

1. dont validate the invalid. dont over validate. validation is not about agreement, necessarily.

2. focus on "not being invalidating". because thats what often tends to throw gasoline on the fire with our loved ones, and if you are not being invalidating, you are, more than likely, naturally being more validating (and "naturally" is really essential. you arent validating if its unnatural.).

even as a lot of this is new information, you are extending a pretty good grasp on things. your husband struggles, and his perceptions, at times, may be distorted. this is important to know and not to forget. at the same time, if your husband accuses you of not loving him, you wouldnt want to "validate" that. you would want to not invalidate his struggle. you would want to validate, if not through words, necessarily, by consistently loving him...consistency is key for our highly sensitive loved ones.

[merelytrying]

I have a feeling that walking that 'validation' line without going overboard is going to be difficult for me... I tend to be naturally empathetic and want to be a peacemaker most of the time, so I'm going to have to watch it.

The problem now is that I don't know what to tell him, because he's noticing things are different... he just doesn't know why. He thanked me for not arguing with him this week, and noticed that I'm not as anxious (which is only partly true, but I'm trying not to show it when I am).

And this morning he told me that he'd been suspecting me of switching his coffee to decaf, since he hasn't been as nervous and jittery. Thankfully (I guess?) he's nervous this morning because of work, so he doesn't suspect me any more.

But what do I tell him? So far all I've said is that I'm understanding him a little better and trying to do better myself. Which he may or may not have heard.

[formflier]

So..."what to say" is often what people get hung up on.  And yes, a few preplanned phrases are helpful.

That being said, I hope that we can change your broad "attitude" or "Approach", as opposed to some kind of precise analysis that spits out "just the right thing to say.

Broad:  He has noticed difference...and is worried.   And perhaps worry about unspoken things.

So...blah blah blah, you switched the coffee blah blah blah

1.  Realize it's not about the coffee..it's about worry.  

Think about being "gentle and light", perhaps lean towards him and put a hand on him, "coffee smells good, something on your mind"?  (you can also read a list in the validating questions post)

My "approach" coming up with this question assumes 1.  not about coffee,  2 not about details, 3 let them know you are present and listening



https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Thank you.

I'll try to remember that I don't HAVE to have an answer exactly. And I'm glad to have the whole codependency thing explained, so I don't have to worry about that as well. I just want to get my panic attacks under control.

I guess I'm starting to feel guilty because I don't want to be dishonest. Where does one draw the line?

[Cat Familiar]

It’s not about “the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.” Most likely he doesn’t want to hear the nitty gritty, but just wants to know that you still love him.

I guess I'm starting to feel guilty because I don't want to be dishonest. Where does one draw the line?

Guilty? Dishonest?

Are there some things that you feel you have personal privacy about?

If not, where did the need to disclose everything come about? Parents? School?

I’ve been participating on this site for six years now without my husband’s knowledge. Why would I tell him? Our relationship has gotten so much better with what I’ve learned here.

If I disclosed everything: my motivation to be here, his difficult behavior that led me to find this site, everything I’ve shared here—that would be devastating to him.

I don’t at all feel guilty. I make sure to leave no trace on my computers. This is my private experience and in no way would sharing it with him be helpful.

[merelytrying]

I think I only started to worry about the dishonesty because things were seeming better for a few days there. After a rage [on his part] and panic attack [on my part] like we had just now, it's harder to care so much. It started because the mail delivery person made too much noise, and just snowballed from there. I guess all I can say is that I didn't do anything to make it worse... I'm just not able to avoid panicking at this point. Back into self-preservation mode.

[formflier]

I used to worry about "honesty" and/or "full disclosure".

Let me give you a real example from my relationship where  I "messed up honesty"

There was a new nurse (female..pretty good looking) at our church.  My wife used to have really bad paranoia.  Well she becomes paranoid that I'm doing the nasty with his nurse and a bpdish rage/attack/accusation session followed (use your imagination...it was really bad)

At some point I definitively claimed to "not know her" or "not know anything about it" (I don't remember exact words), but I was trying to save my skin an say anything to get out of it.

Here is the problem, I did know...my wife found out later that I did know and then..100% certainty that I was lying my azz off.

That was bad for a while and yes my wife contributed...but my dishonesty was the main part of that thing.

However, I could have said "I'm not going to talk about this now" or "let me reassure you of my feelings for you" or just about anything else and come out better, because those responses would be honest and "emotionally honest" from me.

Perhaps a good preplanned response for you.

"Babe..that sounds like an important question.  I'm going to clear my head and give it some thought.  Let's talk more tomorrow evening."

Then...exit, let her be happy..freak out..ride a broom..cast a spell, whatever.  But you honestly disengaged and can get some space.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

It sounds wonderful, FF... but I'm not sure I'm strong enough to implement these boundaries everyone talks about just yet (using walking away as a consequence, I mean). From the beginning of our marriage, if I've tried to walk away temporarily, that just escalates things. I tried it today (explaining what I was doing, not just leaving) and he got more angry, because he said he needed my help with something technical (that I was then unable to fix).

Now if it's important and I can justifiably need time to think about it, he'll sometimes buy that. Today's incident was nothing I could have solved, even with more time. Oddly enough, I have no idea why the mailman was noisy today. But at least that wasn't anything he could accuse me of causing.

What am I supposed to do if he's raging at me to do something that I believe is wrong or inappropriate? I spent several months at odds with some leaders at our church because of an email that I HAD to send (or be yelled at indefinitely). Thankfully it all seems to have blown over, but I don't want to be in that position again. It might be something worse next time.

Am I supposed to support him in his little white lies? Generally I don't make a fuss any more, unless the other person asks me afterwards if it was true.

[formflier]

Several questions swirling around and the details may matter.

For now can we focus on 2 things?

His respect for your no or your not right now.   Am I right that you don't get to say no unless he agrees or you can "justify it to him".  (Please tweak this so we get the right understanding)

Can you share details of this email and the churches involvement.  If you felt you needed to communicate (via email or somewhere else), how did a husband or church get involved in that.

Note:  I'm conservative Baptist type and have experienced many complications with church and BPD.  (so..mega empathy from me, but details very well may matter)

 

This can get better!

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Sometimes I'm allowed to say no, sometimes I'm not... I couldn't tell you the logic on when it's going to be one way or the other. It can go on for hours or days until I agree with him or do what he says.

This particular time was because of covid and our church (it's Baptist as well) choosing to remain a virtual service instead of opening again. I grew up in an evangelical church down south, and when they chose to open again, we listened to their reasons why. He took this as good fodder for argument and insisted that I email the pastor with this list of arguments (Biblical and otherwise). Putting only my name. I didn't think it was a good idea, but I eventually gave in. I tried to put it nicely, but the pastor did NOT take it well.

Thus far, I don't want to get the church involved in our problems... I've confided in one person there, but that's it. I'm sure you know better than I what the complications would be.

[formflier]

Why didn't he email the pastor his reasons?  They were his..right?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

I think he said it would sound better coming from me. And yeah, if he'd have written it, it would have been worse.

[merelytrying]

Hmm... It threw away my second paragraph. Anyway, I was just trying to say that most of the things he strong arms me into are damaging to other relationships, one way or another.

[formflier]

Hey..not criticizing here, want to make sure I have this right before giving advice.

So...for the sake of clarity.

He had an idea to communicate to someone.

He was not willing to "own" that communication.

You would not have ever even had this idea, let alone want to communicate it.

Even if you had this idea, it sounds like you would have communicated it very differently or perhaps kept it to yourself.

Yet, he wanted you to communicate this idea and you were resistant, yet he persisted and you decided to send it, knowing it wouldn't go well.  You "feared" that if you didn't send it..."it" would be worse.

Is that a fair summary?  If not, please correct.

If it is a fair summary, what thoughts and feelings do you have, after reading it laid out this way?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

All of that is perfectly true, if you take the emotion out of it... but the emotion is precisely the point. I am terrified of shouting. Always have been. So I'd say that the panic attacks were my primary motivation for writing the letter. There may have been an ounce of strategy on my part, based on past experiences (when he'd written the letter to someone himself), but I don't know. This may have been around the time when he shoved me into a wall because I was in his way. Which is more physical than his anger has been in the past (other than throwing things that are in his way). So frankly the details weren't that important... perhaps I shouldn't have bothered explaining. I just don't know how to get him to take "no" for an answer during one of these episodes. Now I feel more depressed and hopeless than I did before. I suppose it must sound ridiculous to everyone else.

[formflier]

 

So frankly the details weren't that important... perhaps I shouldn't have bothered explaining.

The explanation is incredibly important.  Please trust me for now, it will become more obvious as we move forward.

This is tough stuff and also important to be accurate when we focus on issues.

How about we take a breather and focus on some reading and background material? 

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

https://bpdfamily.com/parenting/06.htm

I just don't know how to get him to take "no" for an answer during one of these episodes. Now I feel more depressed and hopeless than I did before. I suppose it must sound ridiculous to everyone else.

One of the important things about finding a site like this is that you get to talk to people that have walked the path before. 

I remember looking at "solutions" and thinking that was impossible...she (FFw) will never accept that and then resigning myself to fate (bpdish fate at that)

Please be kind to yourself.  Get yourself an extra cup of coffee (or other favorite drink)..just because. 

Let's not focus on changing anything for now.  Focus on self care, some background learning and then we you understand your next step..we'll help you take them.

We've  got you!

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Thank you [yet again], FF 

You're right. It does help to have this lovely group of people here who all have very familiar stories... I felt so confused and so alone for so long, and this is so huge a revelation! Still, it's a lot to take in, and I appreciate the safe space to do so.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one feeling fatalistic now and then.  Yesterday wasn't as bad as the day before, and I handled it better, emotionally speaking. There were maybe 5 little things in a row that upset him quite a lot (a bug, spilled chips, a bag in the wrong place, etc) -- BUT we were talking on the phone to someone else at the time, and so it was all very quiet. Perfect timing!

This morning, he's really worked up over whatever was said in the first 15 minutes of Sunday school. I think it's more HOW it was said. Oh well. He keeps saying he's not going to log on any more (since he gets upset every week), but then he continues to do it. If he calls and "has it out with" the teacher like he wants to, I think she can handle herself. So I won't worry too much about it this time. I worry too much about what he's going to say to other people.

I'm trying my best to take care of myself, but I think I have a long way to go.