Anyone available to listen... struggling tonight

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hey, I'm having a hard time tonight. Had a couple of truly traumatic conversations in the last week, and I feel numb and don't want to think of what tomorrow will bring. I'm not suicidal but called the hotline just to have someone to talk to... but was on hold, so gave up. So, here I am. Even with helping other people here.

[kells76]

Hey, I'm having a hard time tonight. Had a couple of truly traumatic conversations in the last week, and I feel numb and don't want to think of what tomorrow will bring. I'm not suicidal but called the hotline just to have someone to talk to... but was on hold, so gave up. So, here I am. Even with helping other people here.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey Kells-

What’s going on?  How can I help?

Warmly,
gems

[kells76]

thank you for being here.

DH and I had marriage counseling on Monday, and I let a lot out about how angry I was that it seemed like he was ignoring/not paying attention to/not valuing SD12. Nothing overt, but just stuff that seemed pointless and antagonistic. Our MC noted that we deal with processing stuff about the kid conflict differently -- I just want to "fix it and move on" and DH needs to process internally and not talk about it in the moment. MC suggested I ask DH if he is up for talking, and if not, that he suggest a time.

So, right after MC, DH brought some stuff up, and I started to freeze, but then thought I should use the tools, so I asked DH when a good time was for me to share more about the anger I struggle with. He said "right now" but even then I felt like I had a "radar" sense that it wasn't, but I "wanted to do what I was supposed to" and be "good" and use the tools, so I let it all out. He was angry and we escalated to him mocking me and swearing. I've been feeling numb and jumpy and have a tic since then.

The kids were supposed to be with us this weekend, but right when I got home, SD12 said she was "stressed out" and didn't think she was going to sleep well here, and wanted to go back to Mom's. DH started by telling her that she needed to be here so we could spend time together, and again it escalated to SD12 saying she'd walk back to Mom's. I felt like I couldn't leave that conversation (it was in front of SD14 as well) and I tried to be validating and empathetic but I felt so numb again.

DH took SD12 back to Mom's so it's just him and me and SD14 here. She is doing OK-ish but when DH got back, she had this whole conversation with him about how he wasn't listening to SD12 (it's true, he wasn't), and then DH was telling SD14 about his fears that they wouldn't want to spend time here, and while that wasn't as heightened as the other conversations, once again it was tense.

We are supposed to pick up SD12 tomorrow morning and I just don't know what I can handle. I am not suicidal but I am having those feelings of "wanting to not be here".

[kells76]

I feel like I "have to" be on DH's side to support his time with the kids, while at the same time I feel traumatized by how our conversation went on Monday and we haven't talked about it.

[zachira]

I think many of us have experienced being overwhelmed by our feelings by trying to do what is best for our family while taking care of ourselves. You are a wonderful stepmom and certainly are doing everything to help. My therapist suggested I focus on observing my feelings instead of the actions and feelings of others when I feel  overwhelmed, and it has really helped. Hope you are feeling better soon.

[Gemsforeyes]

I am so so sorry that your H could not hear your frustration without him lashing out and trying to make you feel “less than”.  My take is that when people use those demeaning methods as their “go -to”, it’s because they KNOW their actions and behaviors have been wrong.  And this time your DH does not seem to know how to apologize without making himself look worse than he already has...

I do understand the difficult position of being a stepmom, Kells.  I had three s-kids for the 19 years of my marriage.  At times it is exactly like walking a tightrope.  You are suspended between doing right by the children, and dealing with the challenges of adults who potentially cannot stand one another, but resent YOUR existence.  Yet the kids love you and look to you for comfort and guidance.

I don’t know whether your H has behaved like this in the past.  I’m hoping this is a one off...  and I’m sure you’re still feeling the after affects.  Sadly you cannot change what happened.  What you CAN do (and are ALLOWED to do) in the future, is to listen to your very keen radar; and not engage just because your DH says he is ready at any given time.  You will still be “good”.  There are no rules for what you are “supposed” to do and when.  Allow yourself some time to process... please give yourself the compassion and patience... just like you are “supposed” to grant your H time to process.

As for tomorrow and picking up your SD12... I can’t remember which member addressed something similar to this (maybe Livednlearned?)... but her advice and thoughts were REALLY wise.  She said something like... she’d take a measure of sorts of her well of strength each morning and figure out what she had to give (and what she didn’t) and she’d go with that.

Kells - you’ve had a truly hard, emotional week.  So perhaps in the morning, before picking up SD12, you have a quiet cup of coffee /tea and listen to music you love... or take a peaceful walk.  Breathe... something for you alone.  If you are feeling a bit fragile, know that and give less.  Respect where YOU are.  If your well of strength is more full, then give more during the day.

Either way, please try to keep things light for yourself.  And then when you’re ready (when kids are absent and you feel stronger), address your H’s reaction and unkind behavior.  But try NOT to allow his shortcomings to ruin your weekend.  Hard, I know.

Warmly,
Gems

[kells76]

The night when DH and I argued, he went for a long walk afterwards and be did apologize when he got back. He can get activated when we talk about kid stuff but this was farther than usual.

As much as I tell other people here to do self care, it's hard to take that advice. Mostly I just want to shut down and survive the next two days. I have a volunteer thing today that SD12 and I do together, and I guess if she wants to talk about stuff I'll listen, but really I just want to keep it superficial.

I do feel a lot of compassion for DH because the narrative about him from the kids' mom has always been, even when they were married, that he was the problem. So I don't want to do stuff that says to DH "you're the problem here" but lately it has been hard to watch and be there when he's interacting with sd12 in such a JADE-y way. The options seem like "don't get involved, and watch him shoot himself in the foot and then hear him wonder to me why things are bad" or "call him out on JADEing and he feels like he's the problem and I'm just blaming him and not owning my part".

I'm on my little phone and I guess I'll wrap up now, thumb typing is hard. But yeah, overall what I feel up for is surviving, just being numb and getting through it, and that's about all.

[Notwendy]

Kells- you are a great support to people here, to your H and also your step daughters. I think you might need some of that support as well.

You surely were a breath of fresh air to your H when he had just come out of a BPD relationship where likely he didn't feel he was supported much by his ex wife and you seem to be just the opposite. And here is my warning about looking for the opposite. The opposite of what you don't want might also come with it's own issues. One thing I am wondering is- are you doing too much? Where at one point he didn't have enough and took on too much himself, are you now carrying too much of the weight of the parenting here and is this resulting in the anger you expressed in the counseling session? I don't think one can do "too much" when it comes to looking out for the kids' best interest, but also if you are doing too much in the parenting relationship with your H, you are also going to feel unsupported and resentful.

I think it's great that the two of you are well aware of marriage and relationship pitfalls and are in counseling together and also I think what you two have achieved is way better than the relationship your H had with his BPD ex. However, better may not be without issues at all. I think this parallels my situation a bit in that I certainly didn't choose someone who acted like my BPD mother. However, that didn't ensure that my relationship was not without it's own issues and I didn't recognize the less obvious patterns that could create an unhappy situation for me. I observed that my BPD mother didn't contribute to the tasks of running a family or raising children much. I didn't want to be like her and not do my part. But I was not as aware of the possibility of doing too much, and the resulting feelings of resentment and emotional burn out from that.

Your H was in a severely dysfunctional marriage and by contrast your marriage is much better but that doesn't mean there won't be any issues and he might not recognize the more subtle ones between you and not be the best at managing them since he had to deal with much worse. In this case, if you are overfunctioning, you may need to take the lead on changing this- and it may turn out for the better for both of you. If you take care of your tendency to overfunction, maybe he will be able to step up a bit if he isn't already.

Unfortunately you have also had to deal with the BPD drama caused by the girls' mother and they are so lucky to have you as a step parents as you do so much for them, but also can you find some more time for self care?

[livednlearned]

He can get activated when we talk about kid stuff but this was farther than usual.

He sounds doubled down.

This may not apply to your situation and it's hard to write about...

But I wonder if he feels guilt about having/wanting his kids. One time, H and I were having what sounds like a similar argument and when we laid down our defenses (much later) we both admitted the worst thing to each other: We don't like our kids. We wonder about our lives without them. We wonder what was the point. I can share that here because I know I love my kid, and like him. I also know that sometimes I want to say the taboo thing and get it out of my system. If something happened to my son, I would be devastated. I honestly can't imagine how I would go on. H feels the same way about his kids.

Even so, it's also true that they are ungrateful and ignorant about the sacrifices we make and how hard we work, and what we went through to protect them. They're the kids, and even at 19, 21, 23, and 26 they are still kids. A lot of times we feel treated like pieces of s#*t. Sometimes I watch these historical shows where the kids are basically independent at 13 and I wonder how did we end up with these needy, dependent young adults.

I don't know if that's where your H is at but I wonder if he resents his kids just a little bit given how much chronic stress they represent.

It might be easier to spray some of that resentment outward to the safest person (without understanding what it is that he's spraying and why), which is you. The triangles in your step dynamics with the other parents are dizzying. Maybe H has no margin he can tolerate when it comes to peoplel taking "sides," and perceiving which one everyone is on. BPD dynamics introduce (or stoke the flames of) intense competition that can be hard to ignore. Inferior, superior; win, lose; one-up, one-down; right, wrong. It's exhausting.

As much as I tell other people here to do self care, it's hard to take that advice. Mostly I just want to shut down and survive the next two days. I have a volunteer thing today that SD12 and I do together, and I guess if she wants to talk about stuff I'll listen, but really I just want to keep it superficial.

Superficial can be a form of self-care for us. I love me some superficial when I need to preserve stores for myself.  

Some days I think it's a miracle H and I are together given our histories with BPD in both family of origin and ex marriages. Not to mention the step dynamics with SD23. We have essentially come to peace that I keep things shallow when it comes to parenting his kids. It goes beyond liking or not liking them and vice versa. It feels more like radical acceptance that I'm an outsider here. Weirdly, after years with so much skin in the game, it feels freeing. Especially after my initial instinct, which was to rescue those kids and be the mom they never had.

I know you guys have different dynamics so maybe superficial isn't sustainable for now. At the very least, maybe it's ok to be superficial or numb when you need to be and might even open some space up for other things to fill the void.

I do feel a lot of compassion for DH because the narrative about him from the kids' mom has always been, even when they were married, that he was the problem. So I don't want to do stuff that says to DH "you're the problem here" but lately it has been hard to watch and be there when he's interacting with sd12 in such a JADE-y way. The options seem like "don't get involved, and watch him shoot himself in the foot and then hear him wonder to me why things are bad" or "call him out on JADEing and he feels like he's the problem and I'm just blaming him and not owning my part".

I've been on the other side of this lately, where you describe H is at. For me, it's tables turned  

I'm usually the one pointing out what's breaking in H's dynamics with his kids.

H said some hard things to hear and it took a second for me to stand down and take in what he was saying (about S19). And by a second I mean, like, months. Honestly, I think it had to escalate in order for me to hear what H was saying. I'm a full-blown mama bear when it comes to S19 and that dynamic has to change, and H saw that before I could. For years (so it built up).

It's one of those those things in a close relationship where someone sees up-close how you're making a mess. And points it out. When you aren't ready to make the change for whatever emotional reasons.

overall what I feel up for is surviving, just being numb and getting through it, and that's about all.

Bessel van der Kolk talks about how humans are species who talk ourselves out of handling trauma in our bodies. Trauma can be as simple as a hard situation we are powerless to fix.

That's why I think saying taboo things helped H and I during a particularly bad patch, which every now and then we are able to arrive at together, without judging each other. It kind of helped release some of the stuck-ness we feel about being parents to these kids, the unconditional love stuff that sometimes does feel conditional.

Anyway, I hope you get some feeling back when you feel ready for them.

I am always amazed how tomorrow can be so different from today when it comes to how much I feel ready to handle.

As seriously as I take my self care, I seem to have no control over these other variables that determine whether I'm ready to tackle whatever big is going on.

Like, maybe H will sense you shutting down and he'll feel safe to take a tentative, apologetic step forward. Maybe you'll do something that isn't "following the rules" or being "good" and it will release some of this pressure that builds in our families.

I think it's family systems theory that talks about how a family is like a connected nervous system with each node reacting and responding to the others, nothing happening in isolation, a lot of it non-verbal.

Take whatever you need for yourself and see if the rest of the pack picks up on the signals  

[ForeverDad]

I'm a guy so please allow me to take another angle.  It's a story I've related over the years.  Back in my twenties and single I started to research my ancestry.  Until then all I knew were my parents and grandparents, going back.  Soon I was the defacto family genealogist.  I found out that my g-g-grandfather had printed two booklets shortly before the Great War, over 100 years ago, one on his family history and one on his wife's family history.  There were pages and pages of names, dates and places.  But I still continued researching since that covered only two branches of my family.

This was the 1980s and everything was on microfilm or required a visit to extended relatives, the National Archives (military records and pensions), county courthouses and cemeteries.  Lo and behold, one day I discovered his father, a widower twice over, married in a neighboring state.  And he had a half-sister!  Why wasn't it in his family's booklet?

Years later I made contact with the Jones descendants.  They said there was a land or inheritance feud when he was widowed a third time.  I concluded their side of the family didn't like how the husband got the wife's estate?  But today, over 140 years later, nobody is aware of their visceral hurts.  All I know today is that we missed out on having documentation in the family history of his third marriage, his daughter, her own marriage and children.

You're hurting.  Your hurt is real.  But as time passes you'll assimilate it and it will hurt less.  Your relationship has been dinged, just how much and for how long is up to you.  Gift yourself time to digest it, hopefully without too much indigestion.

[formflier]

 

I may have read your sentence wrong...but I will argue that sometimes shutting down is self care.

I do that often in the evening, because there are times you just need to let that day go...get a good nights sleep and then take on a new day fresh.

Hang in there!

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Thank you, I'm still here and made it through today. I'm sitting alone outside in the truck, I guess that's self care, . If I write much more I think I'll cry so I'll save the long stuff for Sunday night or Monday when the kids are gone.

It's been mostly fine today. We'll see how sd12 does tonight. If you hear from me again tonight it will probably be if she loses it again.

Thank you all for being here for me.

[GaGrl]

I am holding you in my heart tonight, dear Kells.

[Notwendy]

The teen years can be tough, even with well behaved kids. Yes, we love our kids but we may not enjoy all aspects of the teen age year. I know mine had me in tears at times- and they are good kids thankfully but the hormones and teen emotions were challenging.

This was also a tough time due to my experience as a teen with a BPD mother. I truly resented her at the time. So when my kids got angry at limits ( "you can not go out with your friends until you do your homework") I feared they would feel the same way about me. But I am a different parent and thankfully they don't.

I also feared that they might have BPD. Sometimes they acted like it at times but thankfully they don't have BPD.  But the difference is that teenagers might be overwhelmed with fluctuating hormones and emotions at their age- then they grow up. Emotional lability at times is a normal for a teenager.

One reason your H may be having difficulty with his teen age daughters is that their behavior at times could feel to him like BPD behavior and due to his issues with his ex, he may find this even triggering or not know how to deal with it. Yes, he loves them but if their behavior in the moment is reminding him of his ex, he may be reacting as if they were his ex.

And sometimes he may just have had enough of it. When I was a teen, if I was upset about something, my father would get angry and tell me to stop. If he was already angry at my mother-he'd respond to me in a similar way. I know I felt rejected and hurt at the time. In retrospect, knowing that he struggled with my mother's issues, he likely didn't have much understanding for an emotional teen age girl at that time.

Your H's experience with his BPD ex may make it hard to deal with his teen age girls. I don't know how soon the two of you started dating after he left his ex, but he may not have learned some tools such as not to JADE and when faced with something similar- he's using the tools he has when his daughters are emotionally acting out too. But this doesn't mean they have BPD.

[kells76]

Still here...

Struggling with what my role was in when the conversation with DH went downhill.

Timeline (note, I don't do well with remembering stuff verbatim because I shut down, but this is the gist of how things have gone):

Last few months: typical interaction about "needing to email the kids' mom" or "needing to talk about the kids" has been that it gets brought up, DH may ask for suggestions or I offer suggestions (50/50), if DH asks and I offer, I typically offer a "how about writing BIFF" suggestion, DH may come back with "but she's not going to like that" or "I don't think that's going to work" type thing. I would return with "what about what you want, does that matter" or "we need to get this done" type stuff. DH would either communicate he's done talking about this or might increase volume/tone/intensity. I would get the sense "this isn't going anywhere" and not be sure if he would be planning to actually email/talk/whatever, and I would just not say anything, but be fuming/angry inside. Later (usually ~30 min - 1 hr) DH would write the email/re-bring up topic/etc and it would get done, either all him or he would ask me to review an email.

~2 weeks ago: I was kind of shut down and DH asked if he had done something. I told him how I'd been feeling like we couldn't talk about the kids in a way where he was "there" in the conversation, and that I felt lonely because while I can talk about stuff here and do, I wanted to be able to talk to HIM about stuff. I also said I felt resentful and angry that it felt like we couldn't talk about the kids. He asked how long I had felt like that, and I said I didn't know, but a while. He suggested we set a time to talk about stuff, but I said we'd done that before, and the issue for me isn't when we talk but how we talk. He said something like "with your group [the message boards here] there's this specific vocabulary" and I said I didn't care what specific words we used but I had learned a lot here and it was really hard to feel like I couldn't share tools/ideas with him for how to make things better. He asked me for some tools/resources so I asked him to read "the power of validation". He ordered it.

Last Monday 2/7: had MC appointment and brought up a lot of this stuff. That appt was where the MC reflected that the situation with the kids has been traumatic and continues to be so. And, with kid related stuff, the way I cope with the unrelenting stress/anxiety is to process verbally/externally and "get it fixed ASAP" and move on (to lower my stress). The way DH copes with kid related stress is internal and a different/slower pace. This is sort of the opposite of how both of us deal with every other stress. MC reflected that he and his wife have agreed not to talk about high intensity relationship stuff after a certain time of day, that when they do it typically goes south. He suggested that I ask DH "when is a good time for you to talk about kid stuff" so that it isn't "all me doing the work" (i.e. resentment) and DH has an opportunity to take ownership for having a conversation, but control over when it happens.

Immediately after MC appointment (again, recollection is fuzzy):

DH: So I ordered the book, but you still seem upset, did I do something?

Me: No, everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong, I just don't know how to deal with my anger.

DH: (something else I can't remember)

Me: When is a good time for me to talk about my anger? (this is where something may have been going on for me -- I didn't really want to talk but felt like I should "try the new tool", and there may have been some "proving I'm doing it right" going on... not sure. Maybe DH heard something in my tone)

DH: Now is fine (this is where I felt like I heard a tone in his voice that seemed to me like it wasn't really)

Me: said I was angry at how it seemed like he was ignoring/dismissing SD12 in small but pointless ways (i.e. the other weekend she was trying to show him something and seemed to be talking directly to him, but he turned and talked to SD14 instead; "fake"/"joke" arguing/bickering about not letting her watch something, etc). That it was painful for me to be there and see it, knowing that it could be so much better and more positive instead, and that it all was just so pointless, given that she has a hard time being at our house anyway.

DH: something about how he didn't understand why I was so angry about stuff between him and SD12, and that they have their own relationship.

Me: I just don't know how to talk about this.

DH: We are talking about this.

Me: But are we really? (I start to cry and am shut down/frozen)

DH: talks a lot for a long time (I have a hard time remembering content), then says "Am I just f***ing monologing now", then says "Oh, I get it, I'm just supposed to affirm everything you say"

Me: Please stop

I think some time passes, and then DH went on a long walk.

DH apologized when he got back, he said he can be hurtful without even knowing it. I said Thank you.

We have not talked about this since 2/7.

Conversations with SD12 about staying night at Mom's and with SD14 telling DH what he did wrong were Friday 2/11. I have had a startle response / tic since 2/7, it's at work and not just around DH, but worse around him. 2/11 was calling the hotline and posting here. DH has noticed the tic last night and asked if there was anything to make it better. I said probably talking about stuff, but I wasn't ready.

...

It is hard for me to know what was my responsibility. Part of me wants to feel victimized because it's safe and comfortable for me to feel hurt. Another part wants to find responsibility for what happened "because it's the right thing to do". Part of me thinks what if it was mostly DH's fault? I feel like I don't want to dump on him. I also don't want to, if/when I see what I was responsible for, do a "fake" responsibility thing (like, when some people break up, they "take responsibility" for the breakup by saying "My problem was I gave too much" or "I just loved too much" -- stuff where it isn't really taking responsibility, but it sounds like it). Like, I don't want to just say "What I contributed to things going south was, I didn't listen to my finely tuned emotional radar that told me DH wasn't in a good place" or BS like that... but, that is also sort of true. I also feel like "if I don't find SOMETHING to be responsible for, then DH won't own up to his stuff, either".

Another really hard feeling is feeling betrayed. Like, I did what I was supposed to, I asked DH "when is a good time to talk", and my feeling is something like "he didn't hold up his end of the deal" or "he lied to me and said it was a good time, but it wasn't". I feel angry that he did that. I don't completely believe "now I can't trust him when he says he's ready to talk", but the resentful part of me wants to hold on to that "justified belief" that "now I get to feel justified and can finger point". It's sick but it's that "comfortable victim" mindset of "it's comfortable for me to believe I can't trust him now". But there's a part of that feeling betrayed that is real.

I suggested to DH last night that maybe we needed another MC appointment. He wondered if we could try to talk about stuff ourselves. I said I didn't know.

It is hard for me to untangle how much of not wanting to try talking about this with him is "real" and how much is me "clinging to something I know is an illusion" (i.e. "DH is not trustworthy") because it justifies my comfort of not being vulnerable.

It's a similar issue with the startle response/tic. How much of it is real/involuntary, and how much is "I am clinging to this outlet for my feelings because it is more comfortable than the alternative (talking)". I notice myself feeling like "I don't really want to work on getting rid of it" along with "I don't really want to work on bettering things" because when I am in pain and alone, that is familiar, manageable, and comfortable, even though it is miserable.

...

Then there is all the stuff with the kids but I will post about that another time.

[kells76]

And to fill out the other side:

DH feels like he is stuck between xW and me -- that we each have something we want him to do. DH has been frustrated with me before about this and it comes out as "stop telling me what to do". So, he feels stuck and then criticized by me.

[livednlearned]

Just making sure I understand...

There is a low boil when it comes to talking about the kids for you
It has to do with wanting H to use skills that you learned here/find to be helpful

MC said it has to do with how you guys talk about this: suggested you try it like x
You tried that way and there was a flash point, the opposite of what you wanted

When you both tried again, there is a lingering feeling of not syncing up with H
Shutting down was part of the low boil so that's out
Talking about it made it feel worse, you aren't sure why

You both, and particularly you, want to know where to go from here (if shutting down and trying to talk both feel painful)

You are doing some forensics on the conversation to understand how it went quickly from zero to 10

Is that in the ballpark?

[formflier]

Hey Kells76

I like to focus on small words and phrases when trying to turn a difficult conversation.

I'm wondering if in the future you can "turn"  "telling me what to do" into "what we have decided to accomplish"?

Plus..that might help you finish conversations better.

"So..babe have we decided to accomplish a, b and c"? 

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

DH: So I ordered the book, but you still seem upset, did I do something?

Just want to add that this suggests H received information as "kells76 has a complaint/criticism about me" versus "kells76 feels lonely"

Locating the source of your loneliness and anger in something he is doing may be making it hard for him to respond to your vulnerability authentically because your vulnerable feelings come out in glimpses and are then quickly shooed off to the side. Nothing to see here. 

He may also be purposefully narrowing the debate to "I ordered the book" because he is equally uncomfortable being vulnerable, not knowing if "this is one more thing I'm doing wrong as a dad"

What caught my attention in your recap is that you felt lonely, and then it slipped away and was hard to locate, even though that felt like a genuine emotion in all of this.

"I feel selfish for how lonely I feel" is maybe happening?

[kells76]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and care here. Gemsforeyes, zachira, Notwendy, ForeverDad, Gagrl, thank you guys. Don't want to leave you out, and I want to interact more with what you've shared and suggested. Will do so as I continue to destress/relax.

Lnl:

There is a low boil when it comes to talking about the kids for you

If "low boil" means "long-term/chronic low-grade tension", then yes.

It has to do with wanting H to use skills that you learned here/find to be helpful

Yes, and I think that's why even at the start, when things were just as if not more stressful and weird, the conflict wasn't between US -- because we were in the same space. Over the years it feels to me like "I've picked up these skills/tools/ideas and see how things could be better... but you are still back there?" So in addition to the stress coming from the kids' mom, now there's the stress of DH and I not being on the same plane, as it were.

MC said it has to do with how you guys talk about this: suggested you try it like x
You tried that way and there was a flash point, the opposite of what you wanted

And I'm on board that there are two separate issues to deal with; one, actually figuring out whatever logistical thing re: the kids, but the meta issue is how we even talk about that.

When you both tried again, there is a lingering feeling of not syncing up with H

Haven't tried again since MC -- drama with SD12/SD14 instead. I've been pretty shut down and not touching "hey, about that conversation last Monday" at all. But, the scenario I create in my head is "if we try again, who knows, it might just explode again, because even agreeing that it's a good time to talk doesn't work"

Shutting down was part of the low boil so that's out
Talking about it made it feel worse, you aren't sure why

I know not talking about it isn't a solution, and I genuinely am not trying to punish DH or do "silent treatment". We are chatting, just not about resolving anything. At this point my belief is "talking about it made it worse... because I felt betrayed".

You both, and particularly you, want to know where to go from here (if shutting down and trying to talk both feel painful)

DH seems very open to "let's just try talking again". I feel... not opposed to it, but so... like I just don't care. Sure, we could talk, or we could not talk. Whatever. We could talk and it could be fine... once... or not. Who knows. Resigned, I guess. Exhausted.

You are doing some forensics on the conversation to understand how it went quickly from zero to 10

Yeah... It feels like the "safest" way that I can do needed work. Not thinking about it at all is not healthy, and is like a 0 on the scale of "working to make things better". Talking directly to DH would be like a 9. Dissecting it here feels like "I'm at least trying to do something to make things better" but at a 3, which I can kind of handle right now, instead of a 9.

The forensics include "am I accurately seeing my responsibility in what happened, whether it was 0%, 100%, or other".

[kells76]

What caught my attention in your recap is that you felt lonely, and then it slipped away and was hard to locate, even though that felt like a genuine emotion in all of this.

Yes. And I think that is part of why I have such a hard time when he "monologues" because it comes across to me not as him sharing how he feels or problem solving, but building a wall of words between us, and I am left alone on one side.

[kells76]

I like to focus on small words and phrases when trying to turn a difficult conversation.

I know! 

I'm wondering if in the future you can "turn"  "telling me what to do" into "what we have decided to accomplish"?

Plus..that might help you finish conversations better.

"So..babe have we decided to accomplish a, b and c"?

I think that ties in with what LnL is picking up on, too. I feel lonely and like we are not together on the kid stuff. I do want us to be together on it, able to talk about it and problemsolve together. Like Notwendy said, my overfunctioning is a variable in there too.

The dynamic is typically:

kells76 believes DH doesn't want to talk about issues re: the kids, because it is too stressful. DH would probably agree "it is stressful for me to talk about kid related issues". kells76 is concerned that time-sensitive task X won't get done because DH isn't engaging with it. kells76 tells DH she will just send the email about X. Or, kells76 tells DH, "we need to figure X out, it's coming up this week", there is conflict between DH and kells76, DH comes back to baseline and writes the email, and has kells76 "do the tools on it" before sending it.

It's the feeling of "if I don't either do it, or remind DH that it's really important, it won't happen, and because it is about spending time with the kids, it CAN'T get dropped, because that communicates to them that they aren't important".

So yes, using more "we... us... together..." language could help, and having it be an open-ended question versus a "did you send the email" question.

[formflier]

Does he acknowledge he monologues?

A chronic issue..that simply may never get better (or be as good as it gets) in my marriage is that when my wife is about 1/2 way dysregulated...she will start monologing.  Except it normally turns in  a speech with questions and demands for answers...no opportunity for me to answer and being pizzed off that I don't answer.

Maybe I can break mine down into the above and about 1/3 of the time when she just seems to want to talk...so I can't talk.

Is there anyway to break down the monologues into categories?  Perhaps if even 1/4 of them get better...it's better.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

the words I was hoping you can target are "tell" versus "accomplish".  (perhaps you can brainstorm other words similar to "accomplish" that you can be deliberate about substituting in.)

Also (kinda switching gears). 

What if you said/asked "would you like to talk about (kid issue) or just agree to do a and b"  (kinda like many things in congress and "accepted by unanimous consent" (or whatever they say).



Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I feel lonely

I have a feeling this is going to need some special care  

If you're an over functioner you will be quick to check this off (e.g. "made my feelings known, check") and move to problem solving, preferably with you directing.

Versus "I feel lonely" with the actual emotion. Feeling it in the body, letting it actually be felt between the two of you.

How did H respond when you said you felt lonely?

[Cat Familiar]

My sense is that there is a discrepancy in vulnerability between you two. It sounds like you are trying to be open about your emotions and the impact of these issues with the kids and ex.

While it sounds as if he closes himself off, not only to you, but to his daughters, as a self protection strategy.

So while you’re attempting to have a conversation, you aren’t on the same page. Perhaps your vulnerability scares him a bit and he shuts down more. And you react to him closing off.

[Cat Familiar]

Another issue that may be arising is that he might be feeling “less than” by your request for him to learn some of the skills that you’ve incorporated. And instead of sharing a feeling of inadequacy with you, he might be moving toward a mansplaining or talking down strategy?

[kells76]

CF:

While it sounds as if he closes himself off, not only to you, but to his daughters, as a self protection strategy.

It's hit or miss. Sometimes he does a great job at hearing them and connecting. Things are a LOT better with SD14 who opens up to him MUCH more than to me, which is fine. The "good connection" times with SD12 sometimes come after a blowup. Or, if not after a blowup, then only if I make him aware "hey, SD12 needs support".

It is hard for me that it seems unpredictable. Will DH be empathetic, available, and calm? Or will things escalate? I don't always know. Or, I have a guess based on tone, but I either know it's not effective to say "hey, you say X, but you sound like Not X", or I ignore my guess. The not knowing is the hardest for me. If he were always activated etc in these conversations, at least I would know. But maybe 45% of the time it's fine and 55% of the time not.

His mom had BPD traits and his dad was Aspergers-ish. So that is part of where he is coming from.

Perhaps your vulnerability scares him a bit and he shuts down more. And you react to him closing off.

I think so. I tend to cry before getting totally shut down, and I think that makes it worse for him. When I cry is typically when he will do the monologue wall, and yeah, then I react to that.

Another issue that may be arising is that he might be feeling “less than” by your request for him to learn some of the skills that you’ve incorporated. And instead of sharing a feeling of inadequacy with you, he might be moving toward a mansplaining or talking down strategy?

Possible, though the monologuing has been his activated thing as long as we've been together, and not just about the kids/skills. I see it more as a "DH thing" with DH as an individual (he tends towards intellectualizing/analytical) vs mansplaining.

FF:

Does he acknowledge he monologues?

When he said "am I f***ing monologuing again" was the first time I heard him reflect that he does it. We haven't talked about it. Kind of my theme, I guess -- not talking about it.

...

He did make a MC appt for this Monday. I am sort of open to working on stuff with DH before then, but if not, MC might feel safer to me.

...

More in a bit.

[kells76]

FF:

Is there anyway to break down the monologues into categories?  Perhaps if even 1/4 of them get better...it's better.

In terms of content? That is tricky. By the time we are at that stage, I have usually lost some short term memory ability, and I am trying to mentally "escape". My "freeze" response is really strong so I am physically there but mentally trying to "not be there".

I believe the content is about how he is feeling, but in a "reporting"/"intellectualizing" the feelings kind of way, versus a "I feel vulnerable and am letting down my guard to share with you" kind of way.

Well, OK, now that I think about it, some other content might be: "I hear what you're saying. But I don't think so/I don't see it that way". Or, "I think you (kells76) are doing/feeling this because of X, Y, and Z".

So, this isn't really fair, because it's not DH reporting on the content, it's me trying to remember, and it's biased.

But, I guess there could be 3 content categories:

-Reporting DH's feelings from a distance;

-Repeating some "tools" phrases followed by "but"; and

-Analyzing why I (kells76) am feeling/doing what I feel/do.

...

Re:

the words I was hoping you can target are "tell" versus "accomplish".  (perhaps you can brainstorm other words similar to "accomplish" that you can be deliberate about substituting in.)

OK, so, moving the tone of the conversation away from "kells76 telling DH what needs to be done" and towards "how can we together accomplish our goal" -- is that close to what you're thinking?

"meeting a goal" or "wrapping things up" or "getting a plan" could be close.

...

What if you said/asked "would you like to talk about (kid issue) or just agree to do a and b"  (kinda like many things in congress and "accepted by unanimous consent" (or whatever they say).

That might take some groundwork. Are you thinking the options are "talk about X or kells76 does X", or "talk about X or DH does X"? Could you share whom you envision doing the "agreeing to do a and b"?

I think that has some potential down the road... I think we first need to get "having a non-activated conversation about the kids" down and then it could help to have ground rules like that -- where we figure out OK, do we want to just talk? Or is there a decision that needs to be made? Right now those are really mixed up and both are activating/escalating.

[kells76]

LnL:

If you're an over functioner you will be quick to check this off (e.g. "made my feelings known, check") and move to problem solving, preferably with you directing.

Versus "I feel lonely" with the actual emotion. Feeling it in the body, letting it actually be felt between the two of you.

How did H respond when you said you felt lonely?

I think I have a belief that I will feel better inside if we can solve the problem. Hence my intensity/velocity to "just get it done".

I don't remember how DH responded when I said I was lonely. I brought it up in MC too but I don't remember either time if DH picked it up. I think last Monday after he took a long walk and came back, I think he said "I'm sorry you've been feeling so lonely."