Update on divorce, etc.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So sorry about your elderly dog.    Just had to put down one of my cats that has had long-standing health problems. It’s never easy.

You’re getting a very clear picture of how intransigent she is.

[Cat Familiar]

So sorry about your elderly dog.    Just had to put down one of my cats that has had long-standing health problems. It’s never easy.

You’re getting a very clear picture of how intransigent she is.

[formflier]

Sorry about the dog situation.  Never easy.   

Can you insist on separate rooms so you don't have to actually see her?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks all. Eight or none years ago we had five dogs. We're about to be down to one. It's never easy.

I don't know yet how mediation will be structured. I will talk to my lawyer about it. My thought is that I want to let my wife decide how things will go. If she wants us to be in the same room, I can deal with that. I think the less she feels in control, the less well it is likely to go, and I think insisting on being separate will put things on a bad footing from the start.

[ForeverDad]

Some states don't allow the lawyers to be present.  If that's how it is done in your state, then you always have the option to declare a break to stretch your legs or use a restroom and you can quietly consult during the break.

Remember, mediation does not have to succeed, though of course that would be nice.  However, if she refuses to be reasonable in negotiations then you are entitled to declare the session failed.

Probably best not to put forward your best deal, good to hold some portions in reserve, because you can predict that even more will be demanded.  Negotiation is give and take.  Just be careful that you're not always giving and your stbEx always taking.

[babyducks]

I don't know yet how mediation will be structured. I will talk to my lawyer about it. My thought is that I want to let my wife decide how things will go. If she wants us to be in the same room, I can deal with that. I think the less she feels in control, the less well it is likely to go, and I think insisting on being separate will put things on a bad footing from the start.

so very sorry about the dog stolencrumbs.    I know that's hard.    they do pull at our heartstrings.

hmmmm.    I am not sure about the idea of letting your wife decide how things would go.      and I am not sure you being in the same room with her wouldn't be more than she could handle emotionally.    would you feel comfortable declaring the session failed or taking a break?      do you have a plan of how to protect yourself if she dysregulates?

I think ForeverDad raises a good point - what ever deal you put on the table should be calibrated to account for her being unreasonable.   because that is more than likely to happen.

thanks for the update.    appreciate hearing from you.

[formflier]

Please talk to your lawyer ASAP about who will be present and options for in person versus different rooms.

If you can post those options here..we can guide you.

I'm concerned about you being in same room..really concerned.  Perhaps if lawyer is present you can work out a "sign" to him ahead of time where he asks for a break.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

The only advantage I can see to being in the same room would be that both lawyers would be able to see how intractable and possibly deregulated she can get. That could help both lawyers with future strategy. You know your STBX's lawyer has his/her hands full!

The primary disadvantage I see in being in the same room would be triggering her to a level of suicide threats.

[formflier]

I think it would be helpful for both lawyers to see her in action.

Hopefully that can happen without stolencrumbs being in there.

Maybe there is a covid angle or something like that which can be an appropriate ruse.

Plus it can validate that the lawyers are driving the bus and all that..vice a requirement that stolencrumbs "has to" do this or that.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

The "normal" way mediation works in my state is the "shuttle" approach, where the mediator shuttles back and forth between the two parties who are in separate rooms. Unless she specifically requests something different, I think that is how it will go, but I am meeting with my L next week to talk about mediation.

I don't actually think she'll have a meltdown in mediation. She usually keeps it together when she is around other people. She will definitely play the victim, so there may be some tears, but I don't think there will be a total meltdown. I suspect she will either take an extreme and unreasonable position and refuse to budge, or we will seemingly make some progress only for her to torpedo it once the first day of mediation is over.

I'm still willing to give up a lot to get this over with. I am hoping her unreasonable offer, whatever it may be, is something that I can work with. I have no possessions or amount of money that is worth dragging this out longer than is necessary. My main concern is alimony, and I'm hoping I can trade home equity, retirement accounts, possessions, and anything else I can to reduce alimony and give me a chance to build my life back moving forward. Probably a pipe dream, but that's my hope. 

[formflier]

I would ask your lawyer if language can be put in there that says.

Alimony will be paid for X time as long as SC ex wife (fill in blank)..stays no contact..no emails...or only communicates via a court order app or whatever.

Make sure your L knows that whatever the conditions..she will not comply and you don't want to be divorced..yet still on the hook for alimony AND a life of constant horror communications.

Said another way..incentivize  her to behave properly and compensate you for her misbehavior...AUTOMATICALLY.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

A 13 year marriage would probably be viewed a medium length marriage.  Most states would probably ignore your time together before marriage.  How long have you been living separately?

If you've been driven from the home for some time, that would imply she's had sole use of your family's home.  Your lawyer could advise you on whether that would weaken her claim to alimony, or at least shorten it.

These days alimony is usually limited to half the length of the marriage, and generally less than that.  In my case, we were married for over 15 years when we separated and with her dragging out the divorce for two years we had the final decree just days after out 18th year ended.  I don't know how my lawyer did it but I paid alimony based on 1 year for every 6 years of marriage... that was 3 years total.

A perspective to keep in mind is this:  Many courts expect both spouses to separate their lives and Move On.  Alimony is generally viewed nowadays as an aid for the disadvantaged person to transition into post-marriage life.  It's not a freebie, though she may view it that way.

Another perspective is that if she doesn't currently work then you need to express the expectation that she needs to find gainful employment.  She may be very messed up, court may (or may not) ignore much of her messed up behaviors, but she is NOT disabled.

One more observation... If you go into mediation or later into court and you *expect* to pay alimony, then I predict you'll walk out stuck with hefty alimony.  Don't walk in feeling the loser before you even get started.  You know that saying about self-fulfilling prophecies.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with Forever Dad in that you don’t want to start negotiations from a perspective that you’re ready to freely hand over anything.

Look at your situation as an outsider would see it. She basically drove you out of the house. You had to live in your office and car. She expected you to be the gardener and handyman to do repairs on the house where she damaged countertops, broke windows, put holes in drywall.

Meanwhile you lived a meager lifestyle for years to support her living in the home you jointly owned.

If your experience with the opposing attorney is anything like mine, you will be surprised by some of the expectations pulled out of thin air. Legal proceedings are not a place for generosity of spirit. You need to be prepared for battle, not surrender.
 

[stolencrumbs]

First round of mediation was today. It was, um, not successful. We had another session scheduled for Thursday, but we cancelled that because unless her approach changes, nothing is going to get settled. The mediator was pretty quickly frustrated by my stbx. She didn't really even talk to me about any of her "offers" because they were so ridiculous. The mediator came in and chit-chatted with us a couple of times to just give stbx and her lawyer a chance to come up with something reasonable. That didn't happen.

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the irrationality at this point, but I am. The mediator flat out told me I would do really well in court, and that she can't imagine any judge giving her anything like what I'm already willing to give her. She told stbx that as well. Didn't matter. Roughly, stbx wants alimony in futuro, at 50% of my income (which was down from 90% where she started), me to pay for her health care forever, 100% of the equity in the house, half my retirement, me buy her car for her, and pay her moving expenses whenever she decides to move (and also help her buy a house somewhere if she finds a house she wants.) As the mediator said, she's living in la-la land. Any other suggestions were shut down pretty quickly.

My L said her L was exasperated. They met for a bit without us and he said her L just sort of threw up his hands and didn't know what to do. The mediator said stbx's lawyer, who the mediator has worked with a lot, seemed "beaten down" and was unusually quiet about everything. Yeah, that sounds about right. I can tell people all day that working with stbx on anything is a challenge, but I don't think anybody really gets it until they try to do it.

She did ask to talk with me at the end and I agreed. Prior to that we were in separate rooms. There wasn't really progress in the private conversation, except that I guess it kept some hope of mediation alive. It was fine and did not go off the rails, but she pretty much has no realistic idea of what it is she wants. She said she would email me some ideas she has that she says the mediator didn't want to hear. I'm doubtful those ideas will be helpful. She also said that she didn't want to go to trial and wanted to keep trying to figure this out. So I think the plan is to schedule mediation again at some later date and see how it goes then. My hope is that she maybe got a sense of the reality of the situation today and, given time to digest it, might readjust her proposals to more closely align with reality. Going to trial is not going to be better for her, and maybe she'll come around to seeing that. I think it actually would be better for me, but it's three more months and a whole lot more money to get there. 

All in all, a pretty frustrating and expensive day.

[Cat Familiar]

Aargh!  No surprises, huh?

Though it will cost more in lawyer’s fees, going to court might in the end save you a ton of money in the future.

Like so many soon to be ex-partners of PwBPD, you might be generous to a fault and negotiating against your best interests in mediation.

[Cat Familiar]

And an extra three months, though it seems like forever right now, will just fly by when you think about this whole process in retrospect.

[GaGrl]

And ...now you and the two lawyers know why mediation rarely works with a pwBPD. Not unexpected, and now you know more exactly what great expectations she has (and they are totally unreasonable).

Point by point, what is typical for a 13-year marriage to be settlement in court in your area? You might have your lawyer present your generous offer, along with the settlement that would most probably be court ordered in trial, and give her A weeks to accept your offer. If not accepted, that offer is off the table, and you take it to the judge.

[worriedStepmom]

Do you really think another round of mediation will be successful?

How many rounds of mediation are you willing to have (and how much are you willing to pay for them)?

Most likely case is you pay for mediation and then still go to trial...and possibly that she settles on the courthouse steps.

How willing are you to play hardball?  As GaGirl mentioned, give her two options and let her pick...and if she doesn't pick one, then in court you are going to ask that the agreement also include no contact, and if she violates it you can have her brought up on contempt charges for every single email she sends.

Your L might have some advice after this mediation session, but I think if you really want to be divorced soon and for as little money as possible, now is the time to stop coddling your W's feelings.

[formflier]

So...did the mediator give you an example of what you would likely get in court?

Has your L given you such a list? 

How do those lists compare?

So..you've seen the beast...you know that there is only one way out of this (possibly two)

Make sure you have a solid idea of what the likely outcome of a trial will be.  Ask questions if you present "fault" or "unreasonableness" on her part if it gets better for you?

Anyway...you need to know what that looks like.

Then tell your L to get to court ASAP...no more mediation.

The possible number 2 way to get out of it is a pre trial settlement.  Maybe even courthouse steps.

Instruct your L that you will ONLY accept something that is "less than" what you would get in court.  You might use her fear of court to your advantage here.

Sorry you had to go through with this.

Best,

FF

[mart555]

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the irrationality at this point, but I am.

Welcome to the club.  I wasted 3 days in mediation because we came to an agreement and then she reneged on it..  she wanted more.   I pretty much could have written your post.  Well in my case the mediator was useless and clearly had no clue about BPD and everything that happened.. "oh! maybe the kids could have a sleepover at mom's house" and a bunch of other stuff that really made no sense.  So my ex had her sense of entitlement inflated by her first lawyer, that mediator, and her lawyer.  Her lawyer #2 was more realistic so she dumped him.

Rushing to trial may or may not be a wise decision.  If status quo is in your favor, you may want to take your time.  Your lawyer would know best.  In my case I am risking lifetime alimony and my kids are getting older and will have their opinion heard, so I'm in no rush to go to trial.

Keep in mind that if your ex "settling things outside of trial" means "you accepting her offer".  I keep getting garbage offers from my ex, it's maddening.  Yet she blames me for not wanting to settle. 

Like you sometimes I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel.. or I see it and I'm not sure if it's a train or what.

[babyducks]

My hope is that she maybe got a sense of the reality of the situation today and, given time to digest it, might readjust her proposals to more closely align with reality.

Reality has never really been her strong suit Stolencrumbs.   

I am going to suggest that now you have communicated with her in person and the door is open for emailing ideas for mediation this will drag on.      I seem to remember that is not what you said you wanted.

I find myself in agreement with worriedStepMom, and others.     If there is nothing productive occurring take this to the next step.   I suspect that is uncomfortable to contemplate.    Probably goes against the grain.    if I understand what you are describing accurately... the best solution for both you and your wife is for you to take charge of this and push it towards resolution.

Sorry to hear that this continues to be a struggle.

'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

So the trial date is already set. It's been set for a while, and according to my L, it isn't going to change. It's in early October. So far as moving anything forward, there isn't much to do. It is moving forward towards that date. We basically have a few weeks to figure something else out or everyone is going to start preparing for trial.

I feel pretty certain that I will be better off financially, and probably in other ways, by just letting the court decide things. I would still like to reach a settlement that (a) I'm okay with and (b) helps stbx transition to a life where I am not supporting her. But I'm not going to bend over backwards to try to solve problems for her and come up with a proposal that satisfies her ever-shifting bundle of needs. I remain open to anything reasonable she might propose. Absent that, I will probably try to come up with a proposal before we get closer to trial. If we start depositions and trial prep and such, I don't really see any reason to settle anything at that point. I don't want to play "hardball," but my L is happy to do so and is actually pretty excited about the possibility of taking this to trial.

She did email me last night, and mostly it was about how bad she thought mediation was, how she felt bullied and was "terrified," and couldn't believe the things that were being communicated "on my behalf." No new suggestions for anything, but another promissory note that she would send suggestions when she got over the "shell shock" of mediation. So we'll see.

[formflier]

One of the things that has amazed me over the years is the number of people that have settled "on the courthouse steps"...many times quite literally there.

While I don't want you to "count on" this happening, I hope you will be prepared for that possibility.  Clarity on what will likely happen in trial is important so it's clear to you that any deal you take is "better".


Are you surprised at how mediation went?  Does that experience inform you about the next few months?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My experience in court was that it didn’t take long before the judge sent the two parties to separate rooms to come to an agreement. It was like mediation on steroids.

Neither party was pleased with the outcome. However in retrospect, I got away with a bargain. I paid off the credit card debt he accrued after our split and gave him some cash.

In return, the property and truck I bought with my inheritance were deemed my sole ownership, which legally they should have been, but he tried to claim 50%.

Now my home is valued in the million dollar + range. And I paid him tens of thousands of dollars to go away. I call that a bargain!

[ForeverDad]

One of the things that has amazed me over the years is the number of people that have settled "on the courthouse steps"...many times quite literally there.

While I don't want you to "count on" this happening, I hope you will be prepared for that possibility.  Clarity on what will likely happen in trial is important so it's clear to you that any deal you take is "better".

That happened to me.  Two years in separation and then the divorce process.  She forced us into every single step — temp order (2 of them both favorable to her), parenting classes, mediation attempt (failed of course), parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference (failed miserably) and a few continuances thrown in to delay even more.  I recently reread my lawyer's correspondence of the failed settlement conference where she threatened me if I sought custody.  Though the lawyers were witnesses, they said I couldn't use it against her.  But still, my lawyer wrote and tried once more with a settlement offer.  But yes I was surprised upon arriving at court on Trial Day that I was met with news she was finally ready to settle.  The reality?  She was backed into a corner by the process and could delay no longer.

[stolencrumbs]

One of the things that has amazed me over the years is the number of people that have settled "on the courthouse steps"...many times quite literally there.

While I don't want you to "count on" this happening, I hope you will be prepared for that possibility.  Clarity on what will likely happen in trial is important so it's clear to you that any deal you take is "better".


Are you surprised at how mediation went?  Does that experience inform you about the next few months?

Best,

FF

I don't think there's any settlement on the courthouse steps that I'll take. I want to avoid getting there. If I spend the time and money to get to the trial date, I'll take what the judge decides. I'm pretty sure I will do better at trial than I would do settling. I want this done, but if I just have to wait out a trial, I can do that. I have plenty of practice with patience.

I wasn't really surprised. I was surprised by how badly her lawyer seemed to have prepared her for what mediation would be like. It went more or less just like my L described. She seems to be completely taken aback by the process.

I was also a little surprised by how bad the mediator was at dealing with her. If she had told me her plan was to give stbx "a dose of reality," I would've saved my money. Everybody seems to think they are going to be the one with some magic touch that gets her to be reasonable. No, no, no, and no. I know her better than anyone, and that's not going to happen. If you want her to cut off her nose to spite her face, try that tactic. But I guess it's not the mediator's job to coddle her. She treated her like a normal human being. Fair enough. But that's not what we're dealing with here.

I don't know that I learned a lot. I think it reinforced that if there is going to be any settlement, it's going to require me jumping through her hoops and playing whatever game she wants to play. I don't intend to do that. I will give her another opportunity to be reasonable and take a settlement that will be better for her. If she's not interested, we'll go to trial and I'll let my L represent my interests. 

[Cat Familiar]

My experience was that even though my ex got the worst *pitbull* attorney in town, she was well aware that she was dealing with someone who wasn’t shall we say *normal*. 

At the end of the negotiated settlement in the side room of the court, she came in and I was there with my attorney as we wrapped up details.

She threw me a bone at the end when somehow the conversation veered to attorney’s fees. Apparently he owed her a lot of money at this point and she said that she’d just have to get it out of him in yard work, then rolled her eyes.

I mentioned that I thought he was working for an electrical contractor, her boyfriend. (Small town). She said, “Yeah, Brady says he’s not very good.”

This was balm to my ears. My ex had always asserted that he was an expert in everything, contrary to reality. And I had begun to believe that he was at least somewhat competent in something.

[formflier]

I don't think there's any settlement on the courthouse steps that I'll take. I want to avoid getting there.  

Hey...a bit concerned that this "point" might not be landing with you.  Perhaps "possibility" is the better word.

1.  I think you know on some level, you are going to trial OR you are going to pay her a bunch more than a judge would give.  Right?

2.  It's important that you have a firm understanding of what a judge would give.

3.  If...big IF...you are literally on the courthouse steps and are offered a deal that is BETTER than what a judge would give...how on earth does it make rational sense that you would reject that, spend extra lawyer fees and go to trial?

You know...YOU KNOW she is not rational.  Right?  

It isn't rational for her to "take" or "give" a deal prior to court, when she will get more at trial.  Right?

Yet...her fears and "stuff" may get in the way and she may "take a deal".

You should be prepared for that, but not "count on it".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I get it that you want to help your stbex transition and hopefully become more healthy.

I would separate that desire from the divorce proceedings/deal. 

Let's say you end up with a really favorable settlement.  You can always offer in the future to pay for a treatment program for your stbex or pay for other things that could help turn her life around.

In fact it's possible that might be more possible with a lesser settlement, because if you get locked into paying a high settlement, you may not have disposable income left to help her.  Because we know she will likely fritter away any money she gets to spend as she wishes..right?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

It occurs to me that you and your lawyer could construct your offer based on "moving STBX toward a healthy, independent life," and actually include in the offer payment of an outpatient DBT program.,

Hmmmm...just put it right out there.

[kells76]

actually include in the offer payment of an outpatient DBT program.,

and you could decide if you want that to be "contingent" on anything.

or if you would want it to be "the equivalent $ amount of alimony" (or whatever), but in DBT program payment format. Like giving someone a gift card instead of cash.