Guilt and who’s blaming?

[Ozzie101]

So, my H (uBPD) and I are in a bit of a rough patch, thanks in large part to a very stressful moving situation.

For the most part, we’re able to discuss things better than we used to. We can at least acknowledge we have different approaches. I get stressed or worried or frustrated, but I focus on the end goal and how to get there. H gets angry and fixated on who’s to blame for the situation, how people aren’t helping or on ways he can public ally humiliate the people involved. I know from experience that he won’t actually do anything, but it’s exhausting to listen to. Especially when I’m struggling to hold on to any kind of hope myself.

Anyway, something that bothers me is that he tends to minimize some things. For instance, when we’ve had calm discussions about our relationship and the instances of things getting heated, I’ve told him that I can handle his venting. But when it gets turned on me, that’s problem.

For instance, he’s gained a lot of weight recently (he was eating more and doing a lot of snacking late at night after I went to bed). He got on the scale and disregulated. He went off about how it makes him angry that I’m thin and it’s my fault for not telling him he was getting fat. (Honestly, I didn’t notice until he pointed it out.) also my fault for letting him eat half a bag of chips (when I was slapped).

He wanted an example so I gave him one. But now, he complains that he’s attacked for everything. That everything he does is wrong or all his fault. That I can’t just let things go.

The things I can’t let go are his frequent verbal abuse tirades and physical abuse (blocking me or trying to smash items I care about) from three years ago. Except there were some more instances late last year so they’re not as “past” as he thinks.

My T says, and I agree, that it takes time to recover from that or to fully reestablish trust. It just hasn’t been long enough.

He also complains sometimes that he feels like he’s the only one who has to do any work or change. I’ve told him my T and I are working on me, too, but he doesn’t trust her.

This concerns me. Before he was apologetic and anxious to change. He is working on himself and has found a T he likes and meets with regularly. Now it seems he’s in denial/minimizing mode.

Any advice, insights or tips on how to deal with a situation like this? Despite some bad episodes last year, his behavior and attitude have mostly improved from 2.5 years ago. It’s the minimizing that gets me.

[kells76]

Hi Ozzie101, nice to hear from you again.

Despite some bad episodes last year, his behavior and attitude have mostly improved from 2.5 years ago. It’s the minimizing that gets me.

Here's the picture I put together in my head of what's going on:

~2-3 years ago, there were X number of behaviors (let's say Blaming, Minimizing, Shouting, Paranoia, Raging, etc etc etc, whatnot), and they were all at a "9 out of 10". I am envisioning "an equal, high level" of all behaviors.

Now, there are still X number of behaviors, but Blaming, Shouting, Paranoia, and Raging are now at 4/10 (or whatever) each... it's just Minimizing that remains at a 9/10. So, one behavior sticks out above all the rest... at the same level it used to be at. Not worse, but not better.

Is that close?

And does he minimize the same occurrences/incidents now, that he did back then? Same theme/content, or different? You mentioned that

Before he was apologetic and anxious to change. He is working on himself and has found a T he likes and meets with regularly. Now it seems he’s in denial/minimizing mode.

So the minimization is around his issues ("I'm not that bad... I'm really mostly a good person... My venting isn't a problem")? Versus around your experiences ("It wasn't that bad for you")?

Just working to get a better feel of your situation...

[Ozzie101]

Hi Kells!  

That sounds like a pretty good assessment of the situation as I see it.

The minimization is kind of both. He insists he’s not a bad person. I’m over-sensitive. He will insist he doesn’t remember doing or saying something (followed by “but I believe what you’re telling me”).

Back when our issues came to a head in early 2019, he seemed to be horrified at what had happened and wanted to fix it.

Now, it seems that if it takes me a while to get back to normal after an outburst or if past instances still have an impact on me (earlier rages coming back to me when he disregulates — my T says that’s normal for trauma), he gets annoyed and frustrated.

But, yes, he’s also minimizing his behaviors. He’s just venting. Or animated. Or that’s how he processes things. If I’m not properly receptive, he will get angry with me and say he’s always being blamed for everything, he’s the only one expected to change. Not true. I know I share some of the blame for things.

What bothers me is that I feel like I don’t have space to recuperate. Or I’m expected to dismiss legitimate abuse so he doesn’t feel bad.

But I could be reading it wrong. And maybe I need to change my approach if he feels attacked? I really don’t know. My T says he has to, at some point, accept what happened and that, yes, most of the work is his.

It’s all just so confusing mentally and emotionally.

As for issues, they morph depending on what he’s stressed about at the time. For a while it was his family. The. His job. Then SS10. Now the house. My family is almost always tied in somehow. (A couple of weeks ago he managed to turn a rant about real estate agents into one about doctors like my dad). Weight? He’ll go off into how some of my family members are “chunky.” I can always predict he’ll work in people I care about.

Last night he said maybe he needs to just have a not-connected third party to vent to about that stuff. Might be a good idea. My only fear would be he would choose someone who just validated him and amped him up more.

[formflier]

A broad comment:

I think you should resist commenting on him and also letting him comment on you.

Stick with...we should each work with our own Ts for self improvement.  It's obviously working.

The follow up with

I want to be your wife...not your T or judge.

Question:  What does "having space to recuperate" mean..what does it look like?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Good suggestion. I kind of figured my commenting on that wasn’t helpful. I try to keep it to “I feel” statements. But I’ll be more vigilant. And I’ll try a statement like that when he asks me.

To me, I think recuperation looks like just being able to feel safe. To be quiet. To mentally sort through what happened and how I feel without fear of further lashing-out or without him talking over and over about what happened the night before.

[Cat Familiar]

One of the difficult things I’ve discovered is that having a partner with BPD and being able to share my thoughts and feelings about an interpersonal incident between the two of us are two mutually exclusive dominions.

That said, things are great with my current husband, so there’s little opportunity for conflict. But when there are disagreements, I tread very carefully and keep most of my thoughts and feelings to myself. Yeah, I know, not ideal, as to what we think a healthy relationship should encompass.

What I do share is very thought out, edited, and said in as few words as possible. I aim to say things briefly in words that are unlikely to be misinterpreted.

This usually eliminates defensiveness and dysregulation. Then he can chew on what I’ve said, or not.

It’s very different than having a partner whose shoulder I could cry on, but I’m not really the crying type, so as a self contained introvert, this works for me.

I’ve found that if I put out the concept, sometimes he will surprise me and have an epiphany that simulates an empathetic understanding of my situation, or something similar. I’ll reward and validate that and hope to encourage that behavior.

So a “normal” relationship it isn’t, but he’s very supportive in other ways, so that counts for a lot.

I hope this isn’t too wordsalady.  

[Ozzie101]

I probably am too wordy. I try to be very careful about my word choices, tone, etc. But I’m sure there’s room for improvement. I usually don’t say anything at all as he winds down. I just listen and journal later or share with my T. But lately he’s been asking me for input on things (for his T). Or he’ll ask why I seem distant or upset. Often, I’ll make something up or he very vague but that may just increase his anxiety and insecurity.

[formflier]

There also can be a place here for bluntness and choices.

"Hey babe...I really appreciate the question and I'll give it some thought.  Please also consider if you really ...really want to hear my judgment about this.  Sometimes it seems that after these types of questions there is bickering or unhappiness about my answer."

pause

"I want a pleasant and relaxed evening together.  I'm also willing to think through and answer these questions.  I'm not willing to bicker over it. It's not good for our relationship."

pause

So..what would you choose?

You get the flavor..

Anyway...for me..in my relationship "bickering " seems to be an acceptable term for light dysreglation.  I use it when I want to describe what I want to avoid.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I like that suggestion, FF. I’ll mull that over for next time he asks.

[GaGrl]

It occurs to me that one reason he isn't as horrified at his behavior and eager to make things better is that, after this length of time, he knows you aren't going to leave.

[Ozzie101]

You mean he feels more secure? That could be. I’ve gotten a lot stronger but I haven’t left. A couple of years ago, I did leave temporarily and that seemed to shock him big-time.

ETA: Not that that’s why I did it. I was genuinely planning to leave.

[GaGrl]

Yes, that is what I was thinking -- he feels more secure. But that doesn't mean he can continue his behaviors without consequences.

[Ozzie101]

Very true. He’s managed to (mostly) keep it together the last few months. But I’m always aware we could slip back into one of his cycles again, us being together seems to help. But in another month or so, I’ll have to go back to in-office work. I fear that could cause some problems.

[Ozzie101]

Something else I’ve noticed: alienation attempts.

This has been going on a long time, I guess. When there’s someone I love or am close to, he’ll argue all the reasons that person is bad. Or doesn’t care about me. Or has ulterior motives.

He’s done that with family for years. But I see him doing it with the lady who cuts my hair. My doctors. Now, our realtor. (She and I get along well.) If there’s a coworker I talk about frequently or get along well with.

It really seems to be a pattern. I see the pattern now and no longer let it sway me. If I like someone or don’t agree there’s malicious intent, that’s just how it is. But it gets exhausting. Anyone else deal with that?

[Cat Familiar]

Very common with pwBPD—these people are taking away the love my wife should only give to me, so therefore I must make her realize how bad they are and then she can give me all the love that was given to them.

OR

She loves these people and they see my faults because they don’t like me and they will persuade her to leave me.

[formflier]

Hey Ozzie101

I figured I would share a recent example of what I still deal with and perhaps that can serve as a realistic view into the future.

Quick reminder:  My wife is more likely PPD than BPD and there is a "core injury" of her parents not wanting her (she was a twin..the 2nd to come out, so she "ruined" the pefect older sister and brother family...)  They didn't know it was twins until she came out and was basically ignored for all her life.

Anyway,

Things are so much better.  Much like Cat Familiar has said..it's better and often appears normal, yet I realize I must be mindful.

For several weeks I literally could not have given an example of "an issue".

My wife is a teacher and is very stressed about next years school and transgender policy.  She is convince that the showers will be filled with men "identifying" as women and leering at our daughters.  

We are working through figuring out exactly what our local policy is as a result of the Biden executive order on this issue.

OK..FF is working through the policy...my wife "knows" that there is nothing that can be done and our children will be abused..raped..leered at... (ok..you get the picture)

My wife basically wants to pull our children out of school...and home school or send them to religious school or...?

Here is the thing, as I understand the policy a parent that affirmatively requests privacy for their child has the exact same rights as a trans person that requests to go to the bathroom they "identify" with.

(note...I may not understand it correctly...this is work in progress and new policy)

My wife has no interest in waiting, process...reading policy...she "knows"

So...

Monday morning I had slipped out of bed to go pee and figured I had another 20 min of sleep and snuggling before we had to get up (our normal routine).  I get back in bed, put my mask for cpap back on..and had just got back in snuggle position with my wife when..

FFw: "so we can't put off talking about next year school any longer" (oh..does anyone think we haven't "talked"..she means decide and be happy with decision)

FF:  sort of mumbling  "Ok...let me wake up and have some coffee"

FFw:  (in full alarm BPD rage..freakout mode)  "you never want to talk you always put things off and never listen to me" (blah blah blah)

FF:  "I'll chat when I wake up"

FFw:  "You always have some excuse"

FF:  "I won't be part of these types of talks" (and I left the room)

FFw: Bpdish rage you could hear even though I was in the kitchen..died out after 10 minutes.

She was grumpy and banged things getting ready and barely gave me a peck when leaving for work.

She was normal that afternoon and since.

I did send out a calendar invite for Saturday brunch to discuss this.  Oddly enough she hasn't responded to the invite or email about it.

All other logistical type emails and texts she has responded to.

I don't do relaitonship stuff via text/email...unless it's completely positive.  

I was addled for most of Monday morning...but I look on this as a "win" and really don't think it will ever get much better than this.

This is a real issue...we probably aren't going to like the outcome (although hopefully we can live with it) and pwBPD simply don't do stress well.

I certainly "do stress" differently...yet I'm not sure I would say I do it "well".

Ozzie..back to you.  I do think there is much more improvement you guys can make...and I also suspect that a couple years from now you will be able to explain the improvement..yet somewhat still be disappointed that "it" is still there...from time to time.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Probably true, yes. There is definitely room for improvement. I think some advancements have been made but we’re nowhere near “there” yet.

The house is our current “situation.” There have been a lot of communication problems from the sellers of the house. However, we finally seem to have turned a corner. They’ve provided the info we asked for (including one thing actually early - a miracle). However, no matter what happens, H is unhappy. He’s convinced they’re acting maliciously (despite evidence to the contrary). He’s convinced our agent is in cahoots with them. He’s insisting that even though we have everything we’ve asked for, he’s going to refuse to sign things and delay closing again. Why? To “show them.”

I get that we don’t want to be foolish and sign off without proper docs, etc. But we have those now. He’s focusing on some very minor issues. He talks about wanting to punish them. I know this is a BPD thing and common for him personally too. However, this situation also affects me big-time. If this deal falls apart, we will be homeless in a horrible real estate market. I don’t want to foolishly sign off but I also don’t want to torpedo something that doesn’t have to be.

So, I’m working on managing my own anxieties.

Cat, that’s pretty much what my T said. Like I said, it doesn’t work. But it is frustrating and emotionally draining!

[formflier]

I do lots of real estate.

If you want, I can look at those minor things and help you create SETS and validating ways to respond.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

One is on a closing date modification. We were waiting for quite some time to get the signed document back. Turned out, the sellers’ agency had the signed document but had some technical problems so we got it a day after they had signed. (It’s notarized and time stamped). H wants to push our agent for an explanation about this. But what he’s told me he really wants is for her to blast the other agent and to demand that no other agents in her firm (one of the biggest and most-respected in the city) ever do business with him again. He won’t be satisfied until that happens.

Another is on the repairs. The sellers agreed to do repairs and they have the right to hire who they want. Likewise, we have the right to accept or reject the repairs when they’re done. The contractors chosen are not the top names. However, I can’t find anything to show they’re not competent and respectable. He wants to demand an explanation for why they didn’t choose the most expensive places in town. Again, the seller has the right to choose.

We’re in agreement that we have to have everything documented before we close and have to make sure all is to our satisfaction. But it’s starting to feel like he’s worked himself up to the point that absolutely nothing could possibly be good enough. There will always be something wrong. We’ve been down that road before.

Knowing him, he will probably cool down and back off. I just fear that won’t happen in time to prevent more stress and complications by another delay in closing.

[formflier]

hmm...sorry...can't help much there.

He can make sure he never does business with them again...it's not the other way around.  It just isn't.

I've done a bazillion contracts and closings and I don't think I have ever known or revealed who did repairs..especially ahead of time.

I'm sure that when asked for proof, especially about stuff that isn't obvious (like say cleaning and sanitizing a well) that you give them the paid bill and then they know the business.

But...he seems to think that he gets to demand who, how, when etc etc on getting the repairs done.

If that is what he wants...he should have asked for price reduction and got it done himself.

That's usually what I do when I'm buying. 

"in exchange for price reduction of $2k, buyer agrees to waive inspection concerns on items 353, 455, and 612 on the inspection report."

you can also waive some and demand some are fixed.  Just all depends.

let me think here.

Does flattery work on your hubby?  "you've worked so hard on this.  Isn't it more important that you decide who you do business with in the future..than controlling others decisions?"

or something like that.

How long until closing?  Will you take possession at closing? 

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I’ve tried. And I’ve tried redirecting. “What do you want to do if we don’t get answers?” “What will our plan be?”

We close Monday. And we agreed to give them an additional two weeks (they’ll pay rent, which will cover some of our expenses as well). And we’ll have the right to do additional walkthroughs if projects aren’t complete by closing. Contractors are in short supply right now, leading to some flexibility in a lot of real estate transactions here.

It’s also in the delayed occupancy that they are responsible for any damage to house or their own property while they’re living there. An attorney friend approved it. Anyway, I’m not too concerned about that. A lawyer signed off and these people are respected professionals.

The thing with wanting our agent to respond certain ways is very much in character. H was that way with the trouble regarding my parents’ friends (my parents should have called their friends out and publicly attacked them). He’s destined to be endlessly frustrated there. Not everyone is going to feel or react the way he wants.

I try to be empathetic. But it’s hard to be validating when he’s being so high-conflict with such high stakes. And keeps cycling into how everyone is conspiring to “get us.”

Anyway, a lot of this is my fault. I know what he’s like and how he can be. We make some progress, but any stressful situation brings us back. I’m aware of this. I know there are things that won’t go away (without a lot of time and work) yet I stay and give tacit approval.

[formflier]

Will there be an escrow that is held by attorneys until they move out?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Yes. And our state laws skew heavily in favor of owners/landlords. Once we own the property we are in a very good legal position. They have a place to go. They just needed two extra weeks until they are able to move in.

[formflier]

Solid!

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

My wife is a teacher and is very stressed about next years school and transgender policy.  She is convinced that the showers will be filled with men "identifying" as women and leering at our daughters.

Strangely, that is not what I've noticed from news items.  I never took count but my impression is that there were more reports about girls claiming to be boys, the reverse of common perceptions.

My mindset is that minors are to be in school for education, not gender what-isms.  Maybe I'm decades behind...

[formflier]

 
My T is aware of several in the school system and my oldest daughter is teaching at a high school in the area and her students are very casual about talking about trans of both types being "in the bathrooms".  Without revealing any more details..my T also informed me that she has more clients dealing with becoming "un trans" (going back to original..not sure of proper term) than she has (transitioning). 

It's a different school corp than where my kids go..but same county/state.

Sort of a separate issue.  I do think that the "pandemic" of trans in teenagers is much more tilted towards biological girls believing they are boys and needing to take testosterone.  It also appears that this has been going on long enough that we are just now starting to see some of those same biological girls in their early 20s decide they want to "go back" and be regular girls...and are having a hard time with reproduction due to testosterone taken in their teen years.  Pretty scary stuff.

Best,

FF