New Guy. Made the decision to end the marriage, but it's complex.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi.
I've visited here a few times, registered twice, and this is my first day posting here.
Married, male, end of the line, made the decision to end the marriage, but it's complex. We're from 2 different countries and living in a third, there's the virus thing happening, it's not just about BPD, and, in this place, there's no real system for dealing with problems like mine / ours.
.
I'm not sure what to write, so here's my weekend.
Am I talking to the right people to deal with this here?
.
.

Friday, 14 May. Written Saturday 15th.
I need to journal this again.

At around 6pm, I came upstairs from my workshop and the apartment stank of stale PLEASE READ. We have 3 dogs, and it smelled like one had taken a dump sometime earlier somewhere in the place.
I asked Z, "Where was the PLEASE READ?" and followed with, "It smells like PLEASE READ in here".
Z agreed there was a PLEASE READty smell, told me it was the personal smell of Joe, the oldest dog, and that she hadn't hidden a turd somewhere.
I searched out a stinking, opened jar of prahok in the kitchen and turds outside on the balcony.
Z went upstairs to the bedroom at 7pm. She always squats or lays on the floor at the side of the bed and uses her phone and work's laptop balanced on a cardboard box - watching Korean soaps or True Crime dramas on Youtube at the same time as playing highly simplistic, repetitive video games on her cellphone and typing long missives into Facebook Messenger, usually until 1, 2, or 3am.
This happens 7 days a week; I spend every evening beyond 6 or 7pm alone in this apartment.
I went to the bedroom to sleep at 10pm. It's the only room with a real bed, and she's always using the floor.
For the first time, and after perhaps hundreds of requests to do so, Z left the room to go do her thing elsewhere. She doesn’t use the bed just yet, but normally stays in the bedroom, flashing light making sleep difficult beyond the earplugs.
She left in silence and without request.
We have a very long-running dispute over my need to sleep and her disregard for that. This is the first time she's left and not continued until I eventually slept, then woken me at 1, 2, or 3am when she decides to pee and sleep.
In normal times, I'm a teacher; I get up at 5am for work, but there’s been none of that for a year or more.

Saturday, 15 May, 1.00am
We have several bathrooms; Z chose to use the one next to the bedroom door. In the bedroom, the dog woke and barked loudly on 3 occasions, waking me.
Z and I have a further 15-year dispute re letting me sleep for a few hours then waking me up - I can't return to sleep after sleeping a short period and so spend an age falling between almost asleep and being woken by jostling or the return of screen glow as she fires up her phone - she can't sleep. I typically begin the following day wallowed in bad mood and constantly tired.
This revolves 3 or 4 times a week. "Let me sleep".
The decade she spent unemployed was worse; she had had the whole day to sleep. At least now she has a job and needs to be present online at 8am sharp, so there are limits.


Sat, 15 May, 12 midday.
I woke at 11.30am; no idea what time I fell asleep.
Another fight weekend.
No speaking as she passed through the kitchen, went upstairs to the bathroom and bedroom, or came back down to the spare room with the camp bed, where she's closed the door. I’m a metre outside the kitchen door, sitting at a table, visible, invisible.

*> Prediction at time of writing: Z will spend the whole weekend on social media messaging, YouTube, and video games. She will confine herself to a single space within a single room. She will attempt no care of the house. She will not communicate without projecting great stress and/or provoking a fight. She will wake me after 2, 3, or 4 hours sleep on both Saturday and Sunday nights even if she's gone to sleep in a different room. <*

Here’s a repeating pattern: start a fight and use that fight as the reason to retreat alone to a single room for the entire weekend.
Attempts at communication will be reflected as stress responses, redirected into provocations, begin a fight, and facilitate her retreat to the single room. This cascade can begin as early as Wednesday and always carries through to the weekend.
If I successfully avoid engagement with provocations until the weekend begins, then, on the Friday evening or Saturday morning, she'll withdraw to the single room anyhow with sneers, scorn, contempt, derision, accusations of weakness of character, and muttered allegations of dishonest sexual identification. There simply has to be a fight. Even when it’s entirely one-sided and conducted alone from inside a small room.

Yesterday, Friday, I spent the whole day until 6pm downstairs in and about my workshop avoiding the inevitable, despite visits. I got the workshop oxygen bottle refilled, something of a small relief. Much larger was that of finally being able to leave the house to get it. We’ve been a locked-down ‘red zone’ for a week, been lockdown restricted for a month, and the alcohol ban is biting me deep down - I’m dry with 2 more weeks to go.

Same for Thursday, until 8pm in the workshop, maneuvering around offers and not engaging with opportunities.
I don’t want to eat or drink under such tight, straits-guarded self awareness of the possibilities branching from every utterance and implications of every possible interpretation of each single gesture or word; rather skip a meal. I’m not a chess player tight-roping carrying the balance of 10 moves deep in 4 dimensions and I don’t want to be one. And I don’t trust the bottle of water brought to me from the fridge any more, either.
Everything is a precursor to fight weekend.
Every road leads to stress, argument, spite, and her retreat to a single room.
.
So here's Saturday at 1.38pm.
The dogs are crying and whining outside the door of the spare room where she's chosen to be, and I'm eating alone again.
.
7.50pm
Z came out of the room, went to give the dogs biscuits, stopped when seeing I'd already fed them, and then went to shower. She didn't speak and returned to the spare room.
.
8.50pm
Heavy heelstrikes, fast footfalls, stress boiling off dry ice. I'm on my desktop in an adjoining room. This is our first interaction of the day.
"Please can I have internet access."
"You have internet access. There was a slow WiFi problem earlier today. I updated the router software, and that fixed it. Nothing has changed."
She went away, came back and brought me her laptop. It just needed the WiFi password inputting.
"You've got internet access. I updated the router software this afternoon. No settings were changed. Same password."
"Thank you."
She walked away.
I'm guessing she lost connection during the reboot after the router had updated, then somehow didn't / couldn't sign in again correctly. That reboot was just after 3pm.
.
'Please can I have internet access.’
As if I intentionally removed it and now she needs to ask permission.
No grey areas; nothing in the middle. No chain or series of events - just on or off. Couldn't be anything except a man putting her down, holding her back, dominating, controlling.
It's polar; it's either that or everything works just fine.
How about:
'My laptop has no internet connection, but my phone's connection to the house WiFi still works. Plus I have the data feed to the phone from Cellcard, and I could hotspot from my phone, but I want to use the house wi-fi with my laptop. There's something wrong with the connection. I don't have admin rights to my work laptop and it doesn't remember settings. What’s wrong with it? Can you fix this?'.
But that offers the possibility of it not being my fault. There’s no ideological stance there - no mileage to be had in the fight for social justice. There’s no perceived political position or declaration of identity allegiance. She won’t take that direction.
Locating the password on her phone, which still worked and showed up in the router client list, and then copying it to her laptop would also not have been the firestarter she was looking for - too easy to see there’s no problem with the technology.
Labelling me as wilfully withholding from her what can be argued to be a basic human right was her route of choice to delineating her problem. That’s an anchor of argument - a call to a cause - a position to fight for - a relatable cry.
Who would disagree that I'm a monster to do that? How many people did she relate that little PLEASE READfer to over Facebook Messenger on her phone this afternoon or this evening?  How many more will turn their backs still further now?
.
Don't bite. You didn't do that. Let her walk away. Don't get pulled into a fight. Fight Weekend.
.
Bed at 11pm. Writing this at 00.07.
Sam’s asleep on the bedroom floor. He's my burglar alarm.
.
Sunday, 16th May, 9.09am
Z just got up and went to the bathroom. She didn't speak but went back to the spare room and closed the door. Router logs show her laptop was online until 3.38am last night, but I was wrong in yesterday's prediction about her disrupting my sleep in the middle of the night. She didn't wake me. That's the first time in months she's let me sleep. I was up at 7 and feeling much better. Cleaned up outside after the dogs, checked the irrigation for the garden plants, cooked rice for breakfast... I had 2 bowls and 2 coffees, checked email, and grounded myself in calm for the day. Dogs asleep around my feet.
.
11.30am
She’s out and moving around the kitchen. No attempt to speak. I need items from the spare room; it’s also a pantry. But she’s back in there again and has closed the door. No talking.
Z's laptop was back online at 6.02am this morning.
.
5.30pm
I spent much of the afternoon reading Walking on Eggshells again. Followed the link to their online presence, looked around the website and forum.
5.30, I put the dogs indoors and went up to the bedroom as the afternoon faded, wanted a locked door, aircon, and privacy.
I've visited BPDFamily 4 times. First time it looked dead, archived and abandoned - frustrating to navigate. Second time not much better, but useful links. Third time I registered, but was led through a field of inaccessible, archived subforums and couldn't find signs of recent activity. The fourth time, I noticed the forum path, clicked back up the tree, found the forum main page and saw posts made today, so I commented.
She came out of the room as the place got darker - maybe 7pm - used no house lights I heard her feed the dogs and return to the room.
8.09pm and this place is in darkness and silence. Like a haunted house.
I'm in the bedroom, door locked, and am missing my guard dog.

[Red22]

Hi.
I've visited here a few times, registered twice, and this is my first day posting here.
Married, male, end of the line, made the decision to end the marriage, but it's complex. We're from 2 different countries and living in a third, there's the virus thing happening, it's not just about BPD, and, in this place, there's no real system for dealing with problems like mine / ours.
.
I'm not sure what to write, so here's my weekend.
Am I talking to the right people to deal with this here?
.
.

Friday, 14 May. Written Saturday 15th.
I need to journal this again.

At around 6pm, I came upstairs from my workshop and the apartment stank of stale PLEASE READ. We have 3 dogs, and it smelled like one had taken a dump sometime earlier somewhere in the place.
I asked Z, "Where was the PLEASE READ?" and followed with, "It smells like PLEASE READ in here".
Z agreed there was a PLEASE READty smell, told me it was the personal smell of Joe, the oldest dog, and that she hadn't hidden a turd somewhere.
I searched out a stinking, opened jar of prahok in the kitchen and turds outside on the balcony.
Z went upstairs to the bedroom at 7pm. She always squats or lays on the floor at the side of the bed and uses her phone and work's laptop balanced on a cardboard box - watching Korean soaps or True Crime dramas on Youtube at the same time as playing highly simplistic, repetitive video games on her cellphone and typing long missives into Facebook Messenger, usually until 1, 2, or 3am.
This happens 7 days a week; I spend every evening beyond 6 or 7pm alone in this apartment.
I went to the bedroom to sleep at 10pm. It's the only room with a real bed, and she's always using the floor.
For the first time, and after perhaps hundreds of requests to do so, Z left the room to go do her thing elsewhere. She doesn’t use the bed just yet, but normally stays in the bedroom, flashing light making sleep difficult beyond the earplugs.
She left in silence and without request.
We have a very long-running dispute over my need to sleep and her disregard for that. This is the first time she's left and not continued until I eventually slept, then woken me at 1, 2, or 3am when she decides to pee and sleep.
In normal times, I'm a teacher; I get up at 5am for work, but there’s been none of that for a year or more.

Saturday, 15 May, 1.00am
We have several bathrooms; Z chose to use the one next to the bedroom door. In the bedroom, the dog woke and barked loudly on 3 occasions, waking me.
Z and I have a further 15-year dispute re letting me sleep for a few hours then waking me up - I can't return to sleep after sleeping a short period and so spend an age falling between almost asleep and being woken by jostling or the return of screen glow as she fires up her phone - she can't sleep. I typically begin the following day wallowed in bad mood and constantly tired.
This revolves 3 or 4 times a week. "Let me sleep".
The decade she spent unemployed was worse; she had had the whole day to sleep. At least now she has a job and needs to be present online at 8am sharp, so there are limits.


Sat, 15 May, 12 midday.
I woke at 11.30am; no idea what time I fell asleep.
Another fight weekend.
No speaking as she passed through the kitchen, went upstairs to the bathroom and bedroom, or came back down to the spare room with the camp bed, where she's closed the door. I’m a metre outside the kitchen door, sitting at a table, visible, invisible.

*> Prediction at time of writing: Z will spend the whole weekend on social media messaging, YouTube, and video games. She will confine herself to a single space within a single room. She will attempt no care of the house. She will not communicate without projecting great stress and/or provoking a fight. She will wake me after 2, 3, or 4 hours sleep on both Saturday and Sunday nights even if she's gone to sleep in a different room. <*

Here’s a repeating pattern: start a fight and use that fight as the reason to retreat alone to a single room for the entire weekend.
Attempts at communication will be reflected as stress responses, redirected into provocations, begin a fight, and facilitate her retreat to the single room. This cascade can begin as early as Wednesday and always carries through to the weekend.
If I successfully avoid engagement with provocations until the weekend begins, then, on the Friday evening or Saturday morning, she'll withdraw to the single room anyhow with sneers, scorn, contempt, derision, accusations of weakness of character, and muttered allegations of dishonest sexual identification. There simply has to be a fight. Even when it’s entirely one-sided and conducted alone from inside a small room.

Yesterday, Friday, I spent the whole day until 6pm downstairs in and about my workshop avoiding the inevitable, despite visits. I got the workshop oxygen bottle refilled, something of a small relief. Much larger was that of finally being able to leave the house to get it. We’ve been a locked-down ‘red zone’ for a week, been lockdown restricted for a month, and the alcohol ban is biting me deep down - I’m dry with 2 more weeks to go.

Same for Thursday, until 8pm in the workshop, maneuvering around offers and not engaging with opportunities.
I don’t want to eat or drink under such tight, straits-guarded self awareness of the possibilities branching from every utterance and implications of every possible interpretation of each single gesture or word; rather skip a meal. I’m not a chess player tight-roping carrying the balance of 10 moves deep in 4 dimensions and I don’t want to be one. And I don’t trust the bottle of water brought to me from the fridge any more, either.
Everything is a precursor to fight weekend.
Every road leads to stress, argument, spite, and her retreat to a single room.
.
So here's Saturday at 1.38pm.
The dogs are crying and whining outside the door of the spare room where she's chosen to be, and I'm eating alone again.
.
7.50pm
Z came out of the room, went to give the dogs biscuits, stopped when seeing I'd already fed them, and then went to shower. She didn't speak and returned to the spare room.
.
8.50pm
Heavy heelstrikes, fast footfalls, stress boiling off dry ice. I'm on my desktop in an adjoining room. This is our first interaction of the day.
"Please can I have internet access."
"You have internet access. There was a slow WiFi problem earlier today. I updated the router software, and that fixed it. Nothing has changed."
She went away, came back and brought me her laptop. It just needed the WiFi password inputting.
"You've got internet access. I updated the router software this afternoon. No settings were changed. Same password."
"Thank you."
She walked away.
I'm guessing she lost connection during the reboot after the router had updated, then somehow didn't / couldn't sign in again correctly. That reboot was just after 3pm.
.
'Please can I have internet access.’
As if I intentionally removed it and now she needs to ask permission.
No grey areas; nothing in the middle. No chain or series of events - just on or off. Couldn't be anything except a man putting her down, holding her back, dominating, controlling.
It's polar; it's either that or everything works just fine.
How about:
'My laptop has no internet connection, but my phone's connection to the house WiFi still works. Plus I have the data feed to the phone from Cellcard, and I could hotspot from my phone, but I want to use the house wi-fi with my laptop. There's something wrong with the connection. I don't have admin rights to my work laptop and it doesn't remember settings. What’s wrong with it? Can you fix this?'.
But that offers the possibility of it not being my fault. There’s no ideological stance there - no mileage to be had in the fight for social justice. There’s no perceived political position or declaration of identity allegiance. She won’t take that direction.
Locating the password on her phone, which still worked and showed up in the router client list, and then copying it to her laptop would also not have been the firestarter she was looking for - too easy to see there’s no problem with the technology.
Labelling me as wilfully withholding from her what can be argued to be a basic human right was her route of choice to delineating her problem. That’s an anchor of argument - a call to a cause - a position to fight for - a relatable cry.
Who would disagree that I'm a monster to do that? How many people did she relate that little PLEASE READfer to over Facebook Messenger on her phone this afternoon or this evening?  How many more will turn their backs still further now?
.
Don't bite. You didn't do that. Let her walk away. Don't get pulled into a fight. Fight Weekend.
.
Bed at 11pm. Writing this at 00.07.
Sam’s asleep on the bedroom floor. He's my burglar alarm.
.
Sunday, 16th May, 9.09am
Z just got up and went to the bathroom. She didn't speak but went back to the spare room and closed the door. Router logs show her laptop was online until 3.38am last night, but I was wrong in yesterday's prediction about her disrupting my sleep in the middle of the night. She didn't wake me. That's the first time in months she's let me sleep. I was up at 7 and feeling much better. Cleaned up outside after the dogs, checked the irrigation for the garden plants, cooked rice for breakfast... I had 2 bowls and 2 coffees, checked email, and grounded myself in calm for the day. Dogs asleep around my feet.
.
11.30am
She’s out and moving around the kitchen. No attempt to speak. I need items from the spare room; it’s also a pantry. But she’s back in there again and has closed the door. No talking.
Z's laptop was back online at 6.02am this morning.
.
5.30pm
I spent much of the afternoon reading Walking on Eggshells again. Followed the link to their online presence, looked around the website and forum.
5.30, I put the dogs indoors and went up to the bedroom as the afternoon faded, wanted a locked door, aircon, and privacy.
I've visited BPDFamily 4 times. First time it looked dead, archived and abandoned - frustrating to navigate. Second time not much better, but useful links. Third time I registered, but was led through a field of inaccessible, archived subforums and couldn't find signs of recent activity. The fourth time, I noticed the forum path, clicked back up the tree, found the forum main page and saw posts made today, so I commented.
She came out of the room as the place got darker - maybe 7pm - used no house lights I heard her feed the dogs and return to the room.
8.09pm and this place is in darkness and silence. Like a haunted house.
I'm in the bedroom, door locked, and am missing my guard dog.

[Cromwell]

Hi Red22

Welcome

This part of the community is for support  for detaching from the relationship.

Thank-you for sharing from your journal.

We are here to help and the support here for you.

 You are not a monster. These are very complex situations to experience.

We always respond to messages.

Take your time it sounds like you have been through a lot. I know how hard it is when sleep is affected, it is difficult to concentrate. It will get better. One step at a time. Well done for taking the first!
Cromwell

[Red22]

Thank you, Cromwell, much appreciated.
Thanks also, Cat Familiar, for the email welcome - also much appreciated.
Here's my Monday so far.
Let's give this a week and see if I'm in the right group.
.
Monday, 17th May, 8.06am
Again, I was wrong in my prediction; she didn't wake me up in the middle of last night.
Logs show both her laptop and phone disconnected from the WiFi router at 1.28am this morning. Z was reconnected at 6.22am and up and about at 7am, showered, boiled the kettle and cooked rice, and was online for work at 8am. Looking rough, but present.
Not speaking.
No Zoom meeting.
Checking email and messages using her workstation in the main living room.
That was the third long weekend in a row. Holidays are falling thick and fast around weekends this year, and she's spent the last 3 shut away in a single room.
I made 2 coffees, sat outside the kitchen door, and slowly drank one, but she didn't come to the kitchen to take the other, turning up to reboil the kettle just after I'd taken the second.
"I thought you weren't coming so I took it."
Still no talking.
So it seems I've regained my sleep but we're back to the silent treatment - this being day 3; she's muttering and spitting feathers with highly visible contempt while walking towards, eyes up at distance and down when nearer, but not talking. We've been here before, a lot, but not recently. I thought I'd stopped it.
The last silent period was 10 weeks long. She refused to communicate at all for 6 weeks, then, when she broke that silence, I didn't respond but extended it for a further month. Two can play that game. When I broke the silence, she didn't carry it forward. That was quite a few years ago and was at the end of my patience with it, and, if this is a return, it's the first time she's done it since. Quite the break given it was a regular, go-to, manipulative tool of choice for many years.
So let her do it again. At least it's not fighting and it's not scaring the dogs, they're not hiding.
But there's surely going to be a Zoom meeting sometime this week, so she'll have to talk.
.
12.15pm
Z came through to the kitchen and asked, "Would you like to eat?”
"No thanks, I'm fine,"
She made a quick lunch and went back to her desk to eat.
Was that an olive branch?
Talking. Let's see what's next.
She looked tired and small, possibly scared, and looks to have lost weight in her face.

1.20pm
She's putting the kettle on. I'll go with the olive branch and back off again if there's a morph.
.
1.28pm
I accepted the cup of coffee.
Mistake.
Instant stress.
Re letting me sleep...
a - "I didn't know I had permission to use a different bathroom on Friday night."
b - "I haven't had enough money to buy a separate bed for 15 years. But, now I'm working, I can buy one."
She smiled before finishing turning to walk away, but the dogs had already disappeared.
The change from a tired, put-down, possibly scared victim to God of Unreality took the blink of an eye.
.
1.46pm and now what?
.
2.00pm
I'm not a mental health professional. I don't know the difference between a fishhook and a skyscraper in this field; I've never had interest in it or connection with it, but here’s my take on the book.
I think perhaps what Walking On Eggshells has begun, or is doing, is the breaking down of a monolithic chunk, a fatberg, an atlas stone.
It started as a grit in my shoe, a drop of grease on my shirt, speck of dust in my eye, none of which I removed, and, over the past 15 years, I have carried, become accustomed to, and have allowed to grow.
I haven't noticed the burden because I have also grown; I have grown stronger daily, and, for long enough, I have been able to carry the end results as easily as their beginnings.
I haven't noticed before any of these changes in the light of the frame of reference of Walking On Eggshells - that's a whole new lens.
I have noticed discomforts, restrictions, and inabilities. I have seen through filters. But I have continued. It's been normal to do that. The growing limitations have been so incrementally small that I didn't see them happening.
I think I'm beginning to break up the lump now. I'm beginning to sort perhaps some pieces. I'm beginning to see the edges of shapes.
Granulation needs a language.
The time and space to think and step back afforded by unemployment due to the virus has opened dark doors.
.
Do I like where I'm going?
Given their ultimate costs, do I want to continue along either path of BPDFamily or my marriage?
The Matrix is the world that's been pulled over your eyes...
This is what I need help with right now.
.
3.00pm
Brought me a bottle of cold Coke.
"Want one?"
"Thank you."
She went back to work.

[Cromwell]

Red22.

Like you say, complex. But this is normal by default. Relationships generally. You know the score, a little bit each day. How did today go I was wondering if could make a few small victories. If worried about the drinks just buy canned from the store if these things help put mind at ease why not.

Little small victories each day add up. It was for me like digging escape tunnel surreptitiously each night with tea spoon. Took me 2.5 years but when its done and all is in place, the energy and will to sprint is there.

There is people out there to help but the awakening you've had and what follows is the courage to go for it.

I'm sorry that you have to live in fear in your own home and can't get restful sleep.

Keep in contact the winning chess move is not to play anymore.

[Red22]

Tuesday, 18th May, 8.04am
Z was up early to let 2 of the dogs out, the other heard from my bedroom floor and woke me. Another whole night's sleep. 5.30am and feeling physically good and mentally clear. I haven't had a head this level for a long time. Let the dog out and started preparing breakfast. Out of rice in the kitchen and couldn't refill - 6am and she'd gone back to sleep; she's sleeping in the spare room, which is also the pantry.
Her laptop was online until 03.04am this morning, then back online at 05.44am.
Two and a half hours' sleep, tops.
I woke her at 7, set the cooker going, and continued cleaning the yard. There was a cool rain last night and it was good to be outdoors early.
We spoke yesterday evening, from perhaps 5.30 to 8pm. I took her idea of takeout Indian to suggest a more participative route for the evening. I made a supermarket run to get a block of cheese, and she made the spag bol sauce. We both worked in the kitchen and with no friction, no teleports.
Dinner was quiet, but not unusual and had no argument. My stomach is settled today, and I feel good.
She was online from 9pm to 3am last night, evening through to early morning, same as every other night, six, seven, or eight hours straight, seven nights a week.
8.04am and she's at her workstation.
We just finished a calm breakfast with no shades of alternate realities.
.
9.10am
A Zoom meeting
At breakfast, I asked Z if she had a meeting today. I want to do organised maintenance on the router, which means another reboot and loss of connection. This caused problems last weekend, but I can plan around her schedule to avoid that.
She told me no meeting today. Meetings were Mondays and Fridays, and that she'd had one yesterday.
There are voices in the living room now, and she's bright and breezy.
"Good morning, everyone."
Dodged a bullet, pure chance.
.
9.24am
The voices continue downstairs, and she's skipped out up and found me to say she's in a Zoom meeting. I can hear that.
.
Even when it's real, it's not real.
.
Back to the workshop.
.
We're in a recovery phase now. Fight's done. Circling demons retreated. She's trying hard to be friendly, to be social but not pushy, to make up.
.

[Red22]

Thanks again, Cromwell.
Yes, this is complex. It's not just about what I'm guessing may be BPD, it's also about the underlying person in which the BPD has manifested, and that's a whole other deal. I haven't begun to describe that yet.
I need to make this process work for me. I need to find a route through the mountains that fits the requirements of my own survival.
I know better than anyone how dead in the water this relationship is - there is no possible way it can continue, but I also need to reconcile that I took on responsibilities when I got married.
We can split our life's relationships into 2 groups: those of 'no choice', such as siblings and parents; or those of 'choice', such as spouses and drinking buddies.
For better or worse, I chose this person.
I can see the damage done. I can see it's dead. I need to work out how to deal with that. I'm not a young guy, nor am I a coward. I need to find a way that works for me.
On top of that, I need the language to begin to articulate and intellectuall manipulate what has happened, is happening, and what I would like to see happen in future.
Agreed again; that's going to take time, and I'm going to need advice.

[Red22]

Wednesday, 19th May, 10.15am
No issues with sleeping last night and no issues with breakfast or starting the day.
I'm catching up on the sleep deficit and feeling much better. I'm more articulate in speech, have more clarity of thought, and can make decisions without a hotfoot dance. Physically, the difference now is not quite so marked, but hey, that's age for you.
.
When she finally let me sleep at night by leaving the room to go watch videos and play games until the early hours someplace else in the house, she still managed to wake me up in the middle of the night by using a bathroom very nearby, thus negating the entire premise.
After my explaining that, she's started to use a different bathroom - the one I use to shower in the morning. That's good and I have slept well.
However, she's not flushing or sluicing, so for the last 3 days, that's been waiting for me when I go to shower.
Knowing the issues, I didn't raise this on day 1.
.
My approach has been to wait and use that wait as reasoning. If that wait can be presented as underpinning a plan that was pre-stated, has a pre-discussed goal, and in which she's seen as already participating successfully, the chances are the approach to action won't be a firestarter.
This has worked well in the past and can completely sidestep the lengthy explanations in triplicate I usually need to give to support, explain, or vindicate a personal choice, something I may decide to do, or ask her to do.
So...
"Thanks for using another bathroom. It's working really well and I've slept well. The noise hasn't woken the dogs or made them bark either, which is excellent."
I got a positive response and she mentioned being scared of making a noise opening the door. I caught that by repeating that all is good.
"Now that's sorted out and working well, let's try flushing and see how that goes."
The clouds rolled in immediately, but I fielded that one with, "Let's see what the dogs do?" and made a soft exit.
There was no thunder to accompany the clouds.
.
10.40am
and we're good so far; I just offered to make a coffee. She didn't want one, but we're operating well within boundaries.
.
10.30pm
Remained within boundaries for the day. She fell asleep for 2 hours from around 4pm this afternoon.

[Couper]

"Now that's sorted out and working well, let's try flushing and see how that goes."
The clouds rolled in immediately, but I fielded that one with, "Let's see what the dogs do?" and made a soft exit.

I'm really curious to see what direction that goes.  For a good long while my uBPDw was leaving surprises, as well.  A big one with me was spitting in the sink, whether brushing teeth or clearing sinuses, and just leaving it (sorry, gross, I know, don't know how else to tell it).  This wasn't a thing for a number of years and then one day it was.  If I said anything about it, there were a dozen excuses about why it couldn't be rinsed away.  If I noted that it used not to be a thing and now it is, she denied it and said it is something she has "done forever" (I'm not blind).  If I noted that it would have been unacceptable in her previous living arrangement with several girls renting a house with a single bathroom, it was met with silence.  The same with hair being left in the shower.

This was the point where I was just getting wise to not saying anything because I believe it was a cry for negative attention (a recurring theme) and by acknowledging it I was falling into a trap.  As soon as I stopped raising the issue, the problem magically went away.  Not saying that's the case you have on your hands (and I think you handled it quite well), but it's why I'm curious to see which way it goes.  My wife will almost never do anything to honor a simple request no matter how gently the issue is raised.  As she blurted out one day in a rare moment of truth: "Whenever someone tells me to do something, it makes me want to do the opposite" (something else that if you remind her of it today, she will deny ever having said it).      

[Cromwell]

You sound a lot clearer and sharper Red22 as you have noticed yourself.

Just goes to show that the sleep situation is paying into your favour. Youll need this, Id suggest consolidate more. every bit of energy is needed. Despite living in a different country from origin, do you have a support network of sorts that can help out. friends, family, anyone?

Its great you have reached out here, but the more the better I just feel when you mentioned the dog as a protector, I had this feeling of you being very isolated, is this a fair assumption?

Take care and well done with small victories youll get there.

[Red22]

Hello again, Cromwell.
Let's do this in parts.
A little obsessiveness has helped me a lot, so please excuse the detail.
.
I'm not looking for victories large or small; this is not a battle - there is no win here. This is loss of a wife to madness, and there is personal survival at best. I'm looking for strategies.
.
First, I'm looking for an opinion from the people here.
"Do you recognise this behaviour as being BPD?"
I need to know this so I can move forward.
.
Second, I'm looking for ways to accurately describe what's happening here so I can better understand it and deal with it.
For example, the concept of 'Gaslighting'.
I had no idea what that was, what it involved, it's effects, or how to address it before I started this journey.
She gaslights me, but now I recognise it, it's not the total confusion that it was.
I don't know what I don't know; and I don't want to randomly pull pages from the psych manual in the hopes of figuring this out. I need good information to form an action plan.
.
Third, my reaching out here is entirely selfish. I need to deal with a problem.
.
Fourth, I live in a sketchy city in a third world country. The dogs are a part of my home security. Their positioning both at night and day is done to maximise warning of intruders. Thus, one sleeps on the bedroom floor, the rest in different areas.
.
Fifth, I'm a teacher, and have taught here for 15 years. I'm very well known in my local neighbourhood and work communities.
However, my wife's behaviours are antisocial and damaging to me, and this community's understanding of the topic of mental health is something I'm not sure of.
.
I'll get there when I can understand her behaviour  and have a plan that gives me back a productive future life. It's not about battles and victories.
.
Thanks again for your replies.

[Cromwell]

Hi Red

Gaslighting is not a BPD specific trait though (anyone can do it).

It is more of a cultural trendy term that gets misused to describe behaviours that can have other more valid explanations. Just a heads up to be careful with the term.

Would you say during the relationship that you have been intensely devaluated? this is the hallmark for BPD.

I was wondering also how you are getting on with sleep and so on. Be conscious of depressed mood I think you are, but take that however you wish to I hope constructively not as a judgement (im not a psychiatrist) i cant diagnose these things, as much as no-one here can remote diagnose your wife with BPD.

have a look here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334834.0
and check out the "diagnosis" part for yourself. It is written for the lay-person.

You lived with her for years and have the advantage of knowing more what has been going on see what you make of it.

wishing you well today.

Would be good to know if you could Let us know how you get on, keep updated. Wishing you well today 

 Cromwell

[Red22]

Evening, Cromwell.
Sleep's good, thanks.
Intensely devalued doesn't even begin to describe the experience. I literally wouldn't know where to either begin or end relating that.
.
I'm up high on the depression self-test I found here, but have been aware of that for a while. Dealing with it.
.
I saw a short list of BPD behaviours somewhere here, and she matched the required 6 from 9, or whatever similar was specified.
I've a list of her behaviours as long as my arm, but they all have my memory filter. That's why I'm giving a random week's behaviour as example.
.
That's one heck of a list at that link. I can see several matches at first glance, but am not well versed in the terminology. Give me a few days to dig through it?
.
Don't worry about my interpretations here; I assume positive intent unless I'm sure otherwise. I'm too far into this to be offended lightly.
.
Nothing to talk of re the behaviour today... It's been a calm and reasonable day.
She was asleep early, 12 midnight, and had a midday siesta.
.
I'll keep this going for a week and see what people have to say about it.
There seems to be quite an amount of information linked around here;  I'll be digging into that, too.

[Red22]

Friday, 21st May, 10.25am
Ok, let’s forget the early night I said she had.
Z was up at 1am, dog barking, and was online until 3.34am this morning.
I got right back to sleep at 1am and had no problems sleeping through.
She was up later than usual and was 1 hour late to get to work.
The ‘Monday, Friday’ morning Zoom meeting didn’t happen. Let’s see if it’s later today.
She skipped breakfast, just having a coffee.
.
2.39pm and no Zoom meeting.
It's been a calm day with no signs yet of it being a lead up to another Fight Weekend.
.
I’m looking through Cromwell’s linked list.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334834.0
.
Here’s where I’m at so far.

BEHAVIORS:  Anger and Rage and passive aggression
Yes, anger and passive aggression. There’s no rage - she goes the other way into broiling silences.

BEHAVIORS:  Cutting and suicidal ideation
No cutting. No evidence of suicidal ideation.

BEHAVIORS:  Devaluation
Yes. She's very deeply into this, Idealisation isn’t much apparent or part of a cycle - I simply have no value in any regard.

BEHAVIORS:  Difference between projection and devaluation?
I need to learn more about this.

BEHAVIORS:  Diminished executive function (poor executive control)?
No. She has high function and is a working professional. No impulsive control issues at all - she’s most extremely conservative, very manipulative over time, and can wait out a plan.

BEHAVIORS:  Dissociation and Dysphoria
She’s daydreamy at times, but I don't see this interfering with her day at all.
I’m worse for this than she is; it’s a major part of my day in planning classes. It looks like I’m undergoing a software update, but it’s a useful device and works for me. The same skill is also useful in avoidance of her baiting.

BEHAVIORS:  Dysregulating
Yes. Destruction of countless objects.
Further, I’ve walked back into a room unexpectedly and seen her in the middle of outbursts of physical expression, but without loud utterances. On a visible level, such expressions are alien to her everyday behaviour and physical movement patterns.

BEHAVIORS:  Emotional Immaturity
Yes, absolutely.

BEHAVIORS:  Enmeshment?
I need to learn more about this. I’m not sure - enmeshed from which side, or to whom / from whom, or to what end. How do I link this to her?

BEHAVIORS:  Extinction Bursts
Yes. I’ve been inconsistent in enforcing boundaries.

BEHAVIORS:  Fear of abandonment?
Not that I have seen. She plays brinkmanship games using separation as a deterrent to my setting boundaries, but, like everything, I have my limits and eventually call bluffs. She always backs down - every single time. This used to be far worse than it is these days.

BEHAVIORS:  Fear of engulfment
No.

BEHAVIORS:  Fear of Intimacy
Yes.

BEHAVIORS:  Intermittent Reinforcement
I’m not sure about this coming from her. I have done this, which has empowered her - for sure.

BEHAVIORS:  Irreverent communication style. What is it exactly?
I’m not sure how this is applicable.

BEHAVIORS:  Lack of empathy (BPD or NPD trait?)
This has many facets, and this is a big one. There is a void of what I would call empathy, but there’s also something else in that empathy’s place. If compassionate empathy is understanding how someone else feels, then she has it - but its function in her is perhaps reversed, it’s a source of enjoyment over others’ suffering. That’s not the end of the matter; it’s complex.

BEHAVIORS:  Lack of object consistency

Tomorrow.

BEHAVIORs:  Memory lapses
BEHAVIORS:  Mirroring
BEHAVIORS:  Mirroring different from idealization?
BEHAVIORS:  Objectifying the romantic partner
BEHAVIORS:  Projection
BEHAVIORS:  Push/pull
BEHAVIORS:  Rage
BEHAVIORS:  Rejection sensitivity (impulsive aggression)?
BEHAVIORS:  Self injury and self harm
BEHAVIORS:  Sexual identity issues?
BEHAVIORS:  Silent treatment
BEHAVIORS:  Splitting
BEHAVIORS:  Splitting:  Painted black
BEHAVIORS:  Stress triggers and negative behaviors
BEHAVIORS:  Triangulation
BEHAVIORS:  Unstable self-image
BEHAVIORS:  Waif, Hermit, Queen, and Witch

[Cromwell]

Hi Red22

The link I should have given was https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63511 this one! i hope I have not overwhemed you with a deluge of information. its good to see that you have found interest in some of the concepts though. Take your time, and as you please.

I have the feeling that over so many years together, youve became intuitively an expert at learning to predict and masterplan how to configure a lifestyle and behaviours that have a statistical best chance towards avoidance of chaos.

What i mean in focus is - things like engulfment. it could exist in her, as the fear of abandonment, its just that youve done such a supportive role in mitigating it? I wonder if this is a point to consider.

i wonder how her behaviours would alter if she did not have the support you provide 24/7.

i was hoping to write more but ive got a chaotic past 2 days with coronavirus visited the cromwell household, have to deal with it, but im pleased overall to hear you keeping the ship stable and hope you find some joy over the weekend minus the anticipatiton of unwanted drama and broilings. Take care, Crom

[Red22]

Morning, Cromwell.
Sorry to hear of your unwelcome visitor. Scary times indeed. I've no idea of your stance on vaccination, but I'm happier now I've had the shot - it's a weight off for me. We both had Sinovac.
.
That link certainly led to a waterfall of data, but it's interesting and is exactly what I need to be able to break this monolith down. I can look into topics at a surface level and focus where I recognise issues.
Linking concepts into relationships will take a lot longer, for example - 'fear of abandonment' is not obviously present, but if I link that with 'projection' and look at her using threats to leave as a manipulative tool, I can perhaps see that she's threatening me with what she sees as the scariest fear.
I have initial steps into a framework of understanding now. Thank you very much.
.
Yes, I have evolved coping, evasion, planning, etc strategies over time.
In much the same way as I learned to ride a motorcycle over several decades... picking myself up after making mistakes, I have learned to deal with Z.
I'm now feeling the combined effects of a lifetime of twists, sprains, knocks, and broken bones, and, in a similar fashion, my marriage is under similar effects of compounded events over time.
If my marriage were one of those Japanese Kintsugi cups, where damage has been fixed with a golden seam, then the marriage would be wholly recognisable not by the unbroken parts of the cup, but by the shape of the first few golden seams, as they are all that remains of the shape of the cup; the rest has been broken so many times that it's a clunky, saggy, dust conglomerate - and I stopped using gold years ago.
.
If I were not present, I don't know where she'd be. But if I am present, I'm just enabling yet further damage.

[Red22]

Saturday, 22nd May, 11.57am
This is the last post re my journaling here.
I'll continue visits looking at resources, and am looking for opinions on any of this behaviour, including my own.
I need help in understanding this and appreciate any and all of such.
.
Saturday. Last night finished with tears and sniffles.
We made a pizza together and ate it watching a movie, "The Walk".
As usual, with my invitations to watch a movie, she joined for the food but didn't stay for the duration, and went back online in the spare room.
I cued up another movie, back to back, and finished both at around 11.30pm.
That's when the sounds of crying and sniffing became apparent. I shut down the equipment and packed up for the night, giving time for development and to think.
Passing the door to the spare room, I checked in, "You ok?"
"Yes, it's my nose, you know? I always have this, don't I."
She has no sniffling and crying problem with her nose. Knowing what would come if I questioned that, I kept it light, friendly, and short… then left carefully.
.
She slept late until 11.30am this morning, then made 2 coffees, came to sit with me, and was fighting in less than 20 minutes.
Apparently, I looked at her the wrong way, and, in doing that, I suggested that there was something wrong with her sense of smell.
She retreated in silence to the spare room immediately.
I gave her 5 minutes and followed.
"Do you still want to eat later?"
We'd planned a BBQ grill and beers.
She escalated immediately.
"I want a calm weekend. This was a calm morning and I want to go back to that. You're escalating a fight; I don't want to fight. I want a calm weekend. Do you want to eat later?"
A petulant "Yes" while looking the other way, and I left quietly.
.
There goes my weekend.
Experience tells me this won't stop, and, if I try to coax her out of there again, the situation will blow up like Vesuvius. If I do that and I'm unlucky, it will run right into next week.
This is another weekend alone.
Fight Weekend.
The dogs are around my feet, looking into the house but not going in; they were in and out of the spare room all morning while she slept.
.
12.31
She came out, masked up, picked up the house keys and headed for the front gate in silence.
"Is somebody here?"
"No... I'm going to get… My officemate is here."
This is a natural break. An unexpected outside influence can be a chance to reset.
As she returned, I asked what had been delivered, it was renewal of governmental documentation and an insurance policy renewal card, but this was a tangential occurrence that gave neutral ground to talk.
I invited her to sit with me again, which she did, but her speaking was restricted to the perfunctory, there was no eye contact, and she sat sending messages on her phone.
.
2.30 and just back from the market.
I knew this would end badly if I coaxed her out of that room.
We went shopping for beers and meat to grill.
This area is very recently out of lockdown and wet-market prices are high for bad quality; distribution chains are not yet well re-established.
The market is historically a point of fight initiation. She'll mock and sneer as locals price gouge even in a regular month, but now's worse… nobody will give the pre-covid prices, everything's jacked up.
She started as shop after shop wanted up to 20% more for a case of beer.
Annoying to be unable to get past the gouging in the first place, worse to be mocked for that by the person shopping with you.
I let it pass for a while, then took her home. Better done alone.
.
When I got back home, the dogs didn't run to greet, and her escalation was almost immediate. I asked her to stop shouting and she started to speak like a gonzo-bigot attack comedian mocking a person with learning difficulties - caricaturing slow speech and huge gesturing. I told her not to speak to me that way and that it was highly disrespectful, and after that, she went back to the spare room again and stayed there.
I salted the pork, cut it up for grilling, dropped it in the freezer, and I want to eat alone this evening.
.
We have our second Covid jab tomorrow. Our queuing was in silence for the last one 3 weeks ago. I caught her during the site entry procedure as she'd missed out on thumbprinting the paperwork, queued nearby throughout, and sat with her as she had an anxiety attack in the waiting area after the jab.
.
Tomorrow's another day?
No.
Tomorrow's Groundhog Day. I'm Bill Murray. And when I wake up, it won't be years in the past.
.
3.43pm
The beer's cold. I have my crutch back.
It's the first in 5 weeks as there's been a nationwide alcohol ban.
I'm off to light the grill.
I'll finish your linked list another day, Cromwell. Thanks for that - much appreciated.
Congratulations on graduating.

[Couper]

All of the stuff that you have going on reads sort of like what I was experiencing up to six months ago.  I can share with you what I did with the caveat that it's not a suggestion that you do the same.  I don't know that what I did is right or recommended, but I am currently experiencing the longest period of peace that I have had in over a decade, though I am under no illusion that it is permanent and I fear that the longer the peace lasts, the worse the storm will be when it breaks.

This staying up late at night stuff: that has gone on here for a long time.  For the last several years she had a work-from-home / laptop job.  Unstructured.  Log in and work when she wants.  It could just as easily be done during idle hours during the day (in lieu of time spent Facebooking, etc.)  It can vary from 20 hours a week or down to 5 (currently I think it is nearly zero).  Staying up late has been a thing both before and after the job.  It hurt me for the same reasons you described, like I'm sound asleep and she comes stomping in the bedroom and starts slamming dresser drawers.  Interrupted sleep is the worst.  I have to get up but cannot get out because my kids are early risers and they need food, etc.  For so long I told her that I wanted us to be "us", to work together, go to bed at the same relative time, get up at the same relative time, each take care of our respective obligations and support each other.  Be able to enjoy time together on the same schedule.  Nope.  It holds me back going out the door, then I have to work later to make up for it and it sets off a very unhealthy cycle.

{I'm not saying this is a look into a crystal ball.  It is just what has happened here.}

What's different is I reached a point where I "snoozed" her which I would describe as a step beyond a refusal to engage (I still acknowledge her existence, of course).  I no longer raise the staying up late topic.  She can stay up as late as she wants while melting into the couch watching t.v. and antagonizing people on Facebook while I operate completely independent of her on a responsible adult schedule.  I go to bed a little-to-a-lot earlier than her and get up a lot earlier than her.  When she needs help with something that we could have done during time together with synchronized schedules, I say "nope".  This is no longer a deal where she shows up at her convenience and I have to drop everything I'm in the middle of because she doesn't want to like a healthy adult.  There are many similar circumstances aside from this where her intent seems to be to make me choose between her and something else.  I have made a conscious decision that whenever I am forced to choose in an instance where it is fabricated purely to put me in an unsavory position, I will choose the other thing.  I refuse to reinforce negative behavior.

When she first caught on, things were not pleasant and I let her stew because I feel in my particular set of circumstances, placating is enabling.  I'm not uncivil, I just don't fold.  There were lots of high-conflict encounters where it seemed she was testing me.  It finally boiled over and I told her that her actions are either going to ruin both of us or ruin her and that there was no net gain in the former.  I told her that I spend too much time looking for the good and formulating solutions to simply have them automatically discarded every single time. 

What is perplexing to me is that the last couple of months, she seems ("seems" is the important word) to have adopted my outlook of only embracing positive actions.  This is the longest period of peace I have known in a decade.  There's still the occasional flare-up, but I don't take the bait and I move on.  She bought shirts with positive slogans on them (Be Happy, etc.).  The anti-answers to every encounter have virtually stopped.  She has a habit of adopting the persona / ailments / behaviors of other people (identity issue stuff?) and now it seems she is mirroring mine.  The old demons are surely still brewing, but they aren't on the surface.  However, if I were to drop my "snoozing" policy, I feel she would go right back to her old ways of trying to manipulate.  I've been burned too many time to believe that decades of self-destructive behavior has finally resolved itself all on its own. 

It's not the happy, cooperative, interactive relationship that I dreamed of, yet it is also better than the years of abuse I have grown to expect.  I believe there is a better life out there waiting on me, but that I'm stuck here in limbo until I figure out what's the next move.

For now, if I want to go somewhere, I state that I am doing it and do it (short of anything that conflicts with my kids stuff, etc.).  Particularly with work and whatnot, whereas before there were always conflicts because of a "You're having fun and I'm not" attitude.  Nope, it's work.  It was all about making me choose between her and {insert task here}.

When there is time for me to work on my pet projects, I work on my projects.  I no longer give my time to her hobbies (she was notorious for begging me to do things she couldn't do herself and then telling me everything that I was doing was wrong). 

All that said, I think you're doing good holding your ground.  You're not getting sucked in to the crying episodes.  You're demanding peace and nothing less.  It takes a lot of discipline to do what you're doing.  What have you got to loose?  You already know what the outcome will be if you strive to placate, so I say keep doing what you're doing and see how it plays out.  If you're getting better sleep and ripping out less hair, you're moving in the right direction.  That's the best I've been able to do after coming to the realization that there is no magic wand.  Thanks for sharing all that you have.  I'm rooting for you!         

[Red22]

The sleep deficit is a serious problem, Couper; it undermines the resources needed to deal with everything else.
I've recovered that for now. She's still sleeping in another room, and I have found it much easier to deal with her as this past week has progressed. It’s been a long time since I’ve felt this rested.
I'm also beginning to see in her some of the behaviours mentioned here, and I now have the mental clarity to take better notice, step back, and look at events post and prior to those problems.
.
Same here with the laptop and her working from home, although she has a regular 9 to 5 office job that's moved online through necessity.
She's keeping a reasonably good approximation of those hours while working from home, too. The job is scaffolding her day, which is a blessing as it's structuring her downtime to a degree.
.
In the past, we have achieved that regular rhythm of shared schedules and relaxation time, but she was unemployed for a decade and had no real structure to her days. It was very difficult to deal with her during a lot of that time as she had no other motivation to keep ‘regular hours’, and it was a cyclic issue that sometimes we managed living like an organised couple sharing compatible timetables, many times not.
.
I recognise the ‘snooze’ option, but I found it really difficult to avoid the hooks back into fighting. I found I needed to be hyper-aware of my expected outcomes at all times, then also entirely vigilant on the lookout for actions that would / could effectively sabotage my day. Second-guessing her intentions and trying to avoid pitfall traps, being pulled into half-heard comments, and those dropped cartoon pianos drove me into paranoia.
I found it far more sustainable not to tell her what my game plan was, where I was going, what I would like to do at the weekend, etc. It even got to the point where if I mentioned that a plant in the garden looked good that day, it was the kiss of death for that plant - guaranteed it would be dead within a fortnight.
So I stopped telling her.
Not so much snoozed as removed from the loop. She fishes a lot, and, as said, it’s tough to maintain constant vigilance. I also recognise the effectiveness of stopping raising issues, as well. Sometimes, they’re just bait. Zero reinforcement is effective. Let her act it out to no audience.
.
Absolutely spot on with saying her actions would destroy the both of us. I’ve lost track even of how often she damages / has damaged our life here, let alone the topics she covers, and I see no gain at all from any of it - it’s pointless destruction to no end, for anyone.
.
Adopting ailments is also recognisable. I have three, permanent, long-term health issues which are all degenerative, and she worries she has them. It’s patently obvious there’s nothing there, yet she continues to point to nothing on her leg or stomach, or has visual impairments that are not correctly described.
It’s not hypochondria; it’s echoing me.
.
All of which most certainly lead to it ‘not being the happy, cooperative, interactive relationship that I want’. It is indeed a purgatorial limbo.
It’s dead. There’s no spontaneity, laughter, good times, but especially no relaxation - relax and you’ll find it was a fishing trip and now you’re hooked into junk all over again - got to keep that in mind.
.
What do I have left to lose? I have nothing left to lose, put simply.
It’s been a waste of time. Getting out is what I want most often now.
.
Thanks for the encouragement, and for showing a little that I’m a standard size in this issue.
I have some new tools to go try out thanks to this forum.
.
Thanks all.

[Unaware]

Couper,

I adopted that same policy, why it took years for me to figure it out puzzles me. It was very successful and it kept my head from exploding, I was certain it was going to.

That said, after five months living that way he moved out. It seemed too easy and was. Five months after he left, the smear campaign went full blown, the harassment and stalking began.

Even the PFA didn’t stop him but I just attended, what I hope will be, the last court hearing. He opted out of that hearing, a no show, and a warrant has been issued for his arrest. He was found guilty and when they catch up to him, I will not be needed for sentencing.

Praying it’s the last chapter in the book of nightmares and that I’m in as good a place as I believe I am…no longer overlooking the red flags or RED BANNERS. I almost feel like the me I was prior to the train wreck. I choose to find silver linings rather than have regrets. In this case I’m wiser and unwilling to fall down that rabbit hole again!

It’s a process, mostly good days and very few bad. I see my responsibility in it. Occasionally struggle to forgive myself. And often tell myself what I’ve told my children, all of their lives…
“Mistakes are a good thing as long as you learn from them and do your best to never repeat them”

[Couper]

I'm glad to hear the sleep deficit is rectified.  It's so hard to process things when all you can think about is how much you want to sleep but cannot.

It's amazing the parallels both here and in the accounts of others.  Wish I had found this site a long time ago.  Even if we didn't have synchronized schedules for whatever reason, it wouldn't be so bad if she would take care of all of her responsibilities (and do so without blaming me as being the reason that she doesn't take care of her responsibilities).  A few years ago I started telling myself sort of as a joke that, "I'm a single parent of three children" and then after a little bit I started to realize how accurate that was.  It's an interesting thing now that as my two minors are closing in on becomming teenagers, I am actually seeing them surpass her in emotional maturity.  I try to drill into them personal responsibility, the value of being honest even when they have done something wrong, and it's starting to stick.  They have attained to essential human qualities that their own mother does not possess.

We're on very similar paths.  Maybe I'm not using the word "snooze" correctly (we're doing very much the same things) but I use that to differentiate from the other tact regarding "engaging with validation" and whatnot.  I've tried things like that in the past and in my case conversation = escalation.  No question can be asked right (almost always perceived as a trap) and no statement can be taken for what it is (perceived as a criticism).  After years of that, it was time for a different approach.  I don't-not talk to her, I just don't communicate any more than what is essential.

It's interesting that you mentioned plants.  We both like yard work and she has much more time for it.  Anything I plant (and usually things I plant have some significance to me, like from my old family place) she will neglect it.  There are many instances like that.  I like to collaborate, plan, and design things, so what you mention about avoiding the "hooks" was very difficult with my current approach because I want to discuss things, but inevitably it was never about the question... the question was just a tool used to start a conflict.  The question never gets answered and then I have a new problem on my hands.  Now when she comes to me with some small tree she wants to transplant and asks, "Where do you think we should plant this?" I just tell her to tell me where to dig the hole.  When I find a tree to transplant, I don't even ask her, I just go put it where I want without telling her.  Not the life I envisioned for myself (literally not the life I envisioned because way back when I never knew this dreaded condition existed) but this approach has brought relative peace.

I'm curious: Does your wife ever make statements or does she only really ask questions?  It took me a long time to realize that's part of the reason it is impossible to have a conversation with mine.  Every statement she makes is a question and every question she is asked she answers with a question.  Even with the kids she will say, "Will you go clean your rooms?", "Will you set the table?".  Those should be orders.  Kids take things literally, so when they are asked and they don't (because they weren't told, they were given an option) then she has an opportunity to play the victim and scream and yell and cry that they don't listen to her when actually... they did.  My kids are great.  When I tell them to do something they hop-to and go do it.

Perhaps you have seen this:

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/carver.pdf

I stumbled across it last night while scrolling through the library section.  Very eye opening.  I'm still not clear on how to proceed but this article did add a few steps to the list that I think need to be checked off and I'm also surprised at how many I have already done without knowing.  The biggest eye opener is, "becoming boring", which I have sort of done.  Last year when she was really amped-up over all the crazy things going on, I learned that she has a real issue with things being boring.  Since I'm not getting the daily harassment anymore I have been wondering if she has already gone in search of a new host and this confirms that perhaps she has.  I've said before that my dream would be to just wake up someday and find she took a bus to Siberia.  That's not likely to happen, but maybe in a proverbial sense she already has.  Stick to your guns.  I have a hunch you are at a tipping point with your approach.

Were it not for my kids being stuck in the middle of all of this I would have been done with it already.     



 

[Couper]

Couper,

I adopted that same policy, why it took years for me to figure it out puzzles me. It was very successful and it kept my head from exploding, I was certain it was going to.

That said, after five months living that way he moved out. It seemed too easy and was. Five months after he left, the smear campaign went full blown, the harassment and stalking began.

Even the PFA didn’t stop him but I just attended, what I hope will be, the last court hearing. He opted out of that hearing, a no show, and a warrant has been issued for his arrest. He was found guilty and when they catch up to him, I will not be needed for sentencing.

Praying it’s the last chapter in the book of nightmares and that I’m in as good a place as I believe I am…no longer overlooking the red flags or RED BANNERS. I almost feel like the me I was prior to the train wreck. I choose to find silver linings rather than have regrets. In this case I’m wiser and unwilling to fall down that rabbit hole again!

It’s a process, mostly good days and very few bad. I see my responsibility in it. Occasionally struggle to forgive myself. And often tell myself what I’ve told my children, all of their lives…
“Mistakes are a good thing as long as you learn from them and do your best to never repeat them”

Hi Unaware, thanks for the note!  It sounds like you have come out the other side with all of your marbles intact.  It's a sad, but encouraging story given the outcome.

At the risk of hijacking Red's thread, can you tell me if during all of this your kids were minors or adults and how that played out?  That's my biggest concern.  My kids are still little.  The thought of her being able to skate through the courts if she can hide her true self (because let's face it, I think there is still a bias favoring the mother with respect to the children in the court system) is my biggest hurdle.  Right now I'm present as a buffer and positive influence.  If she can take off separately with them they are going to be exposed to things the likes of which their little brains do not yet have the objectiveness to process.  I don't want her issue to become a generational issue.

Sad as it sounds, what you described happening would be ideal so that the outside would could see for themselves what really goes on here behind closed doors.  I had one very good friend in whom I tried to confide about this stuff when they could tell that my life was getting difficult and didn't know why... and as a result lost I that friend.  Not that they are angry at me, but I think they didn't have the emotional capacity to process how messed up all of this is.  I never should have said anything but they sort of pushed by wanting to get involved and now a 20 year friendship vaporized.  I won't make that mistake again (that wasn't meant to play off your last sentence now that I have re-read!).

I'm a "silver linings" person too and it sounds like you have arrived at the destination I am seeking.  I want to be like Unaware when I grow up!  I tell myself that maybe there are those of us that have to experience stuff like this because there are better things coming in our lives that require this level of understanding.  At least that's how I justify it.  Everything has a purpose.  Thanks again for reaching out.  (My apologies to Red for the detour.)

   

[Unaware]

I didn’t intend to hijack you Red, my thoughts were to, perhaps, guide you into what appears to have been a successful method in dealing with the craziness of these relationships. May not work in your situation, as everyone is different.

My marbles are stabilizing, in tact is debatable given the day! My “boys” (grown men) provided early insight to this relationship and I did not listen. Both, separately, spun my “mistakes are a good thing…” around on me multiple times, wish I had listened!

I do realize that having minor children brings a much more difficult situation and I’m thankful that wasn’t the case for me.

As for the all night pacing and mumbling, just loud enough, that you know they are unhappy about something (never knowing what) only that it’s your fault (insert sarcasm) resulted in my sleeping with earplugs! It was the only way to get sleep! When the craziness would ante up I’d sleep with one earplug and switch it to the ear that wasn’t pillow side. It felt safer that way, hear just a little in case things went completely off the rails. Heck of a way to live, right?

I am incredibly lucky this method worked successfully as I (and my family) had concerns as to exactly how it would play out. This board has given me wonderful ideas and knowledge and more importantly an acceptance that the outside world couldn’t possibly get their heads around. I have great friends and an awesome supportive family to afford me the ability to, what sometimes felt like, clinging to my sanity in an impossible situation.

Red, Couper…there is hope. Don’t let go of hope, most days it very well may be all you’ve got! I commend you for protecting the children and doing your best to shield them as much as possible. I can’t imagine where I’d be in this had minor children been in the picture, my heart goes out to on that front.

[Couper]

I suspect Red will forgive us for the detour!  On some forums it's frowned upon and I am new here, but I am grateful for what you shared.  It is a relevant addition in my eyes.

You have surely earned your stripes.  I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of that.  Your story does provide hope and sometimes it is easier to find hope than patience!

[Red22]

I don't see a hijack, here. It's all good information.
Thanks very much for it, Unaware and Couper.
Unaware, your original post looks to have disappeared, but I saw it; thanks for your input.
I can't see myself on your exit ramp just yet - there's too much to learn about this and too much I need to consider about how to go about achieving that. I'm lucky in that this is not my home country, and I have the choice to up and leave if it gets to that point. However, I've learned that quitting does nothing to solve and always deteriorates a situation - so I need to consider well. I also like it here and want to stay, which she knows and plays to.
This is accurate in thinking of the future:

I ... had concerns as to exactly how it would play out. This board has given me wonderful ideas and knowledge and more importantly an acceptance that the outside world couldn’t possibly get their heads around.

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Re this thread content - information is good. If anyone would like to comment with behaviours I might recognise or solutions and strategies they have found, please do so, they will be much appreciated. I'm on new ground and need a map.
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Re my own additions here, I'll try to keep my replies to behaviours I recognise elsewhere in this forum confined to this thread. I think this will help me to localise or centralise information and make it easier to find what I need in reflection.
The Z thread.
Here's an example.
I was reading elsewhere and saw this post from Couper.

I call that: "Setting up the pins so she can knock them down".

Here's my version of that.
I recognise this as her setting me up to fail.
She'll offer opportunities for me to make a bad or uninformed choice, many times with a view of showing that decision to a third party as being reflective of my character.
Moral, legal, professional decisions over how to act or whether to act or not can be proffered with her waiting for a mistake in my judgement.
That's easiest to spot when she steps into the professional arena, but there are many other areas in which she does this.
She'll use her knowledge of my tiredness, a packed schedule, illness, personal greed, etc, to suggest and endorse short cuts, minor transgressions, or lapses of responsibility as tools to try to push or encourage a bad decision, which she'll then broadcast and hold up as example.

Here's an old one.
Her brother had a old bicycle that he kept here for storage. After a while, he wanted to sell it, so I sold it for him - he wanted $50.
He rarely visits, and it was months before he came around. When he finally arrived, I remembered the money late after he'd been here a while. I told Z about it - asking for confirmation if I'd given him the money yet, and she told me to keep the money as he'd probably forgotten about it.
I didn't keep the money. If I had, she'd have told him I'd done that even after remembering and that I was the bad guy.
Really, she'd have been correct - it would have been my choice to do that, and trouble arising would have been all my own doing, but the fact she tries to set these things up adds a new dimension.
This is the easing and encouragement of small acts of self-sabotage by the traitorous guardian of the public cleanliness of my conscience and responsibilities.

[Red22]

... it wouldn't be so bad if she would take care of all of her responsibilities
.

No question can be asked right (almost always perceived as a trap) and no statement can be taken for what it is (perceived as a criticism).  
.
I'm curious: Does your wife ever make statements or does she only really ask questions?  
.
Perhaps you have seen this:

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/carver.pdf

... The biggest eye opener is, "becoming boring", which I have sort of done.  Last year when she was really amped-up over all the crazy things going on, I learned that she has a real issue with things being boring.

A repeating issue over time is her almost total abdication of responsibility. It took years to get past this, but now she does organise essential items, such as visas and work permits, herself. She now has a job and has taken on some financial responsibility for living costs and services, especially in the last few months. She still has no personal pension arrangements, medical insurance or much in the way of savings.
She helps with the housework nowadays, but it's a small amount of the total work and is done with bad grace.
.
Getting communication correct is always an issue. Many times, both questions and statements need to be explained in depth or she'll accept neither. I need to drill down right back to foundational thought processes and justify the entire linked chain of ideas that led to the question or statement, then she’ll discard my ideas or question or scoff at some point of opinion. I see this as perhaps ‘devaluation’ - if I understand that correctly.
.
She uses questions more.  She won’t say “I’m hungry” - she’ll say “Are you hungry?” and I’m supposed to guess what that means. In such a simple situation as that example, I can recognise what she wants, but it runs into complexity when I need to start considering the ramifications of the topic of the question when seen from her reality and how that affects today - and I’m usually only given a short time to respond. This becomes truly an epic quest when I need to answer the question based on her memory of something that happened in, say, June 2007 and then consider how she’s acting today and how that old event somehow connects to eating breakfast this morning, and I have 5 heartbeats before it starts to turn sour.
Questions or statements aside, allusion is used far more than anything else. She won’t be direct. But that’s women in general in my experience.
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That PDF is a winner! Thank you so much.
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When I first read your ‘becoming boring’ comment, I connected it to her saying that “Life is boring without fighting”. I never thought to flip that into a useful strategy.
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Thank you very much for all of that.
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Cromwell, I’m still looking through that list of behaviours.

[Cromwell]

Hi Red

Good luck with it glad to hear it is informative.

I know it is formidable

personally I have read a fraction of it all

I just dipped in during my recovery journey a bit like consulting a glossary. Some subjects I found the need to go deeper.

How have you been doing.

[Red22]

Doing ok, thanks.
I'm finding ways to describe my situation and recognise what I'm dealing with.
I didn't have either the vocabulary or the differentiated terrain before. Now I'm picking through things like an archaeologist and recognising layers and artifacts.
When I have both the site fully exposed and a grouped inventory of items found, that in itself will describe the way forward.
.
I've had good sleep for a week, have had no major problems with her over the weekend, have a possible way forward that's positive and actionable, access to a group that have similar experiences, and map of the area - I'm in a much better place than I was 2 weeks ago.
Thanks to this forum for that.

[Couper]

I connected it to her saying that “Life is boring without fighting”. I never thought to flip that into a useful strategy.

Yikes.  Another one of those moments of honesty that slips through the cracks once in awhile.  I have been told, "Whenever I am told to do something it makes me want to do the opposite" (which I already knew), but the one that really scared me is, "Words don't have any specific meaning.  Words can mean anything you want them to."

I admire your methodical study of things.  I think you're getting a good handle on the situation.

[Red22]

Re Cromwell's linked list, I'm changing 'fear of abandonment' to a tentative 'yes'.
She has started so many fights just as I am leaving for work or just as I am going out to class.
For years, I left the house mad-angry and so damned tired.
Is this in the BPD pattern of behaviours?
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Another topic / question.
Making utterances that sound like alarm calls - the boy who cried wolf.
She very regularly uses entirely the wrong tone, pitch, speed, and volume to make sudden statements.
I'll hear her voice, but not her words, from another room, and it sounds as if she's seen a snake or a burglar. I quickly go there, and she'll say something banal like "Oh, I forgot where I put my keys", or somesuch.
A variation of this is to suddenly bang and clatter objects or drop something that makes a racket.
Outcomes are nervousness and an unsettled atmosphere, although I'm wise to it nowadays.
Is this in the BPD pattern of behaviours?

[Couper]

The morning stuff was several years ago back before I was wise to what was going on.  Every morning it was, "You can't leave, I don't have your lunch made yet" or "These papers have to be signed before you go".  Always things there was plenty of warning to prepare for but somehow never comes to light until it can make me late.  Numerous discussions about how important it is for me to be punctual fell upon deaf ears.  Just like you said, a bad way to start the day... every single day... until I started ignoring it and it moved on to some new attention grabbing scenario.  It seemed to fall into the category of being put in a position where I was made to choose between her and something else (opening up before employees arrived, etc.).

There are similar issues with noises.  Along those lines, panicked reactions to statements I make about very minor things.  For awhile she went through a phase of sighing heavily... about every single thing as though it was a major burden.  Pointing it out got met with, "I have always done this".  Nope.  It was new and after a few months and many fights it only finally went away when I quit saying anything about it.

The most embarrassing is when I welcome others into the house.  If a visitor is staying over downstairs she will walk very heavy on the floor, just short of stomping.  Most the time she won't speak in a volume where you can hear her, but when I had a visitor that needed to use the bathroom and she happened to be sitting right outside the bathroom door reading to the kids, rather than relocate for a bit and give him some privacy, she went back to reading but now very loudly.  Lots of awkward attention-getting behavior like that about which I have learned I cannot say anything because 1: there will be hell to pay and 2: it won't stop it.