Can someone define this behavior? -- blocking people.

[Couper]

So..uncomfortable question/issue.  One to ponder for a bit.

Help me understand the wisdom of making further agreements with a person that abrogates agreements.

I don't find your question uncomfortable.  There's not and, insomuch as I can avoid it, I don't.  I'm a little lost on the basis for your question.  If it pertains to the examples I laid out above, they have to be taken in the context of when they occurred and my level of understanding at that time.  Those examples were primarily to paint the picture of her behavior and habits.

That said, when you live with someone and are raising children, there are still instances where you have to make decisions and have agreements regarding the kids and whatnot.  Basically, she's going to do whatever she has already decided she is going to do regardless of what words come out of her mouth.  

Otherwise, I would say over 90% of the things I used to confer with her about (as anyone would with a normal, mentally healthy person and not even think about it because they are such trivial day-to-day things) I no longer do, and haven't for probably over a year now.

[formflier]

Kiddos do make things complicated ( I have 8 of them...)  And there is no "solution" to the issue of abrogation, there are things that can make it better.

The less time you can have between the agreement and it coming true..the better.

When they want to make a decision "early"...raise the issue of changing minds and abrogation in a puzzling way...let them wrestle with it.

"Babe..I hear you wanting me to agree to X right now...I still don't understand the apparent change in last weeks Y agreement.  Can you help me out?"


Best,

FF

[Couper]

Thank you for the helpful input, FF.  I listen to all of it and try to exercise the best tactics as best I can even if the result is not always ideal.  The most difficult part is often having four things going at once and then getting blindsided and having to make a reflex decision on how to proceed.

Hopefully I'm not wearing you out, but I can relay one from this morning.  The outcome is different than it would have been 1+ year ago because of how I now deal with her.

The 4th was this weekend.  Monday was a federal holiday.  Our trash day is on Tuesday.  Yesterday I walk outside, see all of my neighbor's trash out, and went back in to tell my kids (one of their chores is to go around and empty all the baskets on trash day).  I tell them and then she tells me, "I don't think they are picking up today because of the holiday yesterday and the schedule is a day off".  ("Thinking" is one of her problems.  For as much as men have the bad rap for not asking for directions, she will never call for clarification or ask a neighbor... or store clerk or gas station attendant or whatever fits the situation).  So I said, "Okay." and went back to work.  She will put an hour's effort into arguing about her hypothesis when an easy answer is a ten second phone call away.  

The trash usually runs about noon.  Wife and kids left to go somewhere about 10:30.  When I went in for lunch, all of my neighbor's trash is gone.

Now, we all know what the logical conversation should have been, but to clarify I'm not being a jerk, in the past:

1. Telling her all of the neighbors have their trash out turns into that she's right and they're all wrong and if you push it then you're taking their side.

2.  Putting the trash out just to err on the side of caution and possibly get the job done would be purely out of spite for her saying the trash won't run that day -- that's poking a finger in her eye.

So, I say, "Okay".  We can miss a week and not have trouble.  I had other things on which to focus.  Don't need the hassle.

This morning she comes out to my shop and says, "Do you have any trash to put out?".  Now, in retrospect, I should have said no and let her leave, but I did say the trash isn't going to run today because all the neighbors had theirs out and at noon it all disappeared.  

This is the sinister part.  She says, "Yesterday you told me none of the neighbors put out their trash!". I most certainly did not because 1: I am not a liar, and 2: seeing the neighbor's trash out is my reminder every week for going back and telling my kids to do their chore.  Also, it just occurred to me -- when she left out yesterday morning, she would have driven right by everybody's trash on the street and clearly seen it.  

At any rate, I told her I did not say anything about whether the neighbors had their trash out or not and, no matter, it's done.  They'll be back next week.  What's different from the past is rather than make a scene in front of my hired help and continue to prosecute it, she pats her hands and leaves.  Before I snoozed her, that never would have ended so easy.

No matter, I know what the next step is and it's to prove me wrong, so she rolled the can out to the street... where it will sit for the next few days.  It just now occurred to me that maybe the trash collector's site has a note on it... and it does:  "The 4th of July holiday will not change your collection day.  All routes will remain as scheduled."




 

[formflier]

So...my input is not to "play the game". 

Another analogy, if you don't want to get muddy...don't wrestle with pigs.  So...what we want to avoid is teaching people "how to be a better wrestler".

Instead...when she puts water down and makes a muddy pit (and you can see this coming...at least most of the time..right?)...decide not to wrestle

Instead...believe in her and her abilities.  (a great tactic for people that "are always right")

And also let her deal with 100% of the consequences.

so..blah blah blah..lets have the kiddos take out the trash.

her..."it's the 4th, I'm a know it all and you need to  listen to me..!"

you:  (important to stay relaxed) Babe..if you want to handle trash, I'm behind you all the way.   What do you suggest?  (see how you handed her the problem)

if she accepts it..drop it and say nothing else..let her have it.

if she dances around "sounds like it's safer to have the kiddos just handle it now, unless you have another idea"  (see how you hand it back)

the next day when she tries to hand it back to you after screwing it up "Hey babe I believe in you (not in a smart azz way...but relaxed)...you've got this.  If you want to change things around in the future...let's talk more next Wed for date night"

So you aren't strident about it..just relaxed.  If she comes after you..be puzzled.

"Babe..this task seemed really important to you yesterday, today..not so much.  Am I seeing this correctly?"  (keep handing it back)

Do you get the vibe?

Best,

FF

[Couper]

Thanks for the strategies.  I know it takes time to hammer out a post like that.

As far as not getting muddy, that's along the lines of my having snoozed her.  When she "knows" something that I know is wrong, I leave her with it.  It's hers, she owns it then.  I'm not in the business of having to convince her.

I get what you're saying with your version of the exchange but as I interpret that (based on past experience), some of that would have left me muddy.  I got away unscathed yesterday and as far as I'm concerned, she did own it.  I told her it was trash day, she told me I was wrong, end of discussion.  The ball is in her court.  With respect to, "What do you suggest" she made her suggestion by saying Tuesday was not the day and I moved on.

I get the vibe.  I'm not enough of an actor to have that detailed of an exchange, but I think we're generally on the same page.  I don't get flustered, I hand things back to her, done.  It does bother me that she comes back the next day saying that I said things that I didn't say (which I'm sure is excused away as some reflex reaction to not take responsibility and related to her likely disorder) but I still don't press it.  Her doing that -- is that what qualifies as "gaslighting"?  Effectively call me a liar, okay.  No point in making a federal case out of it.  It's what she does because she will never accept responsibility for anything.  It's not something I will win in person and when she's not doing it here, she's continually calling me a liar to people within her circle to try and generate victim status for herself.

Admittedly, I do resent that my life has morphed into this business of having to run an in-patient treatment facility.  I accept that is what I have here, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.  My goal was to have a happy, cooperative marriage and her aim while expressing the same goal was to defraud me into believing she was someone she knew she was not for the express purpose of getting me trapped in marriage and unleashing the real her afterwards.

[formflier]

Perhaps back out a bit more to big picture.

In your version there was a "yes no" thing.  Right/wrong.

In my version there is a "I'm not sure, if you want to handle this I'll trust you to handle it."

That sets you up good for the next day, because you just stick with trusting her to handle it..believing in her.  (that keeps you away from debating details)

Have you ever noticed that they like to descend into details, with little twists here and there that lets them off the hook?  (so..stay away from details)


Best,

FF

[Couper]

Perhaps back out a bit more to big picture.

In your version there was a "yes no" thing.  Right/wrong.

In my version there is a "I'm not sure, if you want to handle this I'll trust you to handle it."

That sets you up good for the next day, because you just stick with trusting her to handle it..believing in her.  (that keeps you away from debating details)

Yes, in that context I see the contrast you're trying to illustrate.  I'll give it a shot when the opportunity arises.  I'm sure it's going to take some time until I can retrain myself yet again.

Have you ever noticed that they like to descend into details, with little twists here and there that lets them off the hook?  (so..stay away from details)

Yes, of course.  Or, barring that, she'll just outright make up exchanges that never actually took place.  In her world the "details" are more often fabricated than fact.

[formflier]

So...even with made up details, perhaps try to find a way to breezily move past that into "I believe in you"...or in the off chance that she really is going to walk away from something you are going to handle it without discussion with her.

"oh sure, lots of possibilities..I'm sure you've got this" and if she wants to descend into details perhaps ask if she is sure, perhaps reference past "misunderstandings" and you don't want any part of that..

There aren't any magic words..but over time a different strategy and "tone" will likely shift things.

Best,

FF

[Couper]

perhaps reference past "misunderstandings" and you don't want any part of that..

Well that will just get my head chopped off.  Only she is allowed to reference anything from the past.  It's difficult for me to convey how genuinely difficult it is to converse with her regardless of how tactfully it is done.  The guilty verdict and sentencing are already decided before any words are ever spoken.  I have dealt with all types from all walks of life and can pretty much get along with anyone, including people that I disagree with.  I have never encountered someone as opposed to solutions as her.  It's like her goal in life is to maintain a persistent open wound.

Your strategies are all well-taken, though and I will try to apply them where I can.

   

[ForeverDad]

What may help you is not how to change her but how to redefine how you deal with her.  Over on our Tools & Skills Workshops board there are a few topics on Boundaries.

Boundaries are counter-intuitive in some ways.  You know she resists boundaries, it's typical with acting-out persons, especially with people with BPD.  Since you can't force her to behave well, then you can set boundaries for yourself, boundaries are for you.  Here's a simplistic example, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  In other words, consequences she has to deal with.  Does that make sense?  Follow the link and read those articles for a better explanation.

Obviously this doesn't fix all the problems, though I hope it can help how you deal with them.  Expect push back, what we call extinction bursts.  It won't be easy but with all the collective wisdom here — which strategies usually work and which usually don't — and with your other local support, you can accomplish so much more than you think possible.

[Notwendy]

This made me recall a situation where I was out in public and some woman got really rude with me, out of the blue. She was with her family and nobody said a word.

I was shook up for a while after that. I wondered why I just couldn't brush it off. I wondered - did I do something to offend her? But what she said upset her was way off of anything I did. She was accusing me of doing something I didn't do and I had not ever seen her before.

Now I realize this woman might have had some disorder, and her family was quiet due to not wanting to set her off further. My own reaction is interesting as it's similar to how I react to my BPD mother's accusations- and why rather than just forget the incident, I was questioning myself.

Foreverdad is right on with boundaries. You just don't do these things to people, but if someone doesn't have appropriate boundaries they wouldn't consider that.

[formflier]

Well that will just get my head chopped off.  Only she is allowed to reference anything from the past.  

So...why did you agree to this arrangement?

Did you explicitly agree or only tacitly agree?

Best,

FF

[Couper]

So...why did you agree to this arrangement?

Did you explicitly agree or only tacitly agree?

This is not anything that I have agreed to.  "Allowed" is her sense of entitlement.

When I bring up anything from the past she goes into one of her denial fits, yet she feels that she can bring up anything from the past and use it as a tool (double standard).  My response to her if I bring up the past and she goes off the rails is that just as she is allowed to reference the past, so am I.  Equity works both ways.  However, I only ever bring up the past when it is directly relevant and an absolute must to illustrate the point, but not as casually as I would with a normal healthy person that is capable of civil discussion because it is guaranteed things will get ugly.

[Couper]

What may help you is not how to change her but how to redefine how you deal with her.  Over on our Tools & Skills Workshops board there are a few topics on Boundaries.

Boundaries are counter-intuitive in some ways.  You know she resists boundaries, it's typical with acting-out persons, especially with people with BPD.  Since you can't force her to behave well, then you can set boundaries for yourself, boundaries are for you.  Here's a simplistic example, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  In other words, consequences she has to deal with.  Does that make sense?  Follow the link and read those articles for a better explanation.

Obviously this doesn't fix all the problems, though I hope it can help how you deal with them.  Expect push back, what we call extinction bursts.  It won't be easy but with all the collective wisdom here — which strategies usually work and which usually don't — and with your other local support, you can accomplish so much more than you think possible.

Thanks.  I'll go through them.  I don't know if you have read through all of this thread.  I realize it is long and there is a lot of activity on this forum.  I'm not one of these co-dependent types, which seems to be a majority here.  I keep my feet firmly planted and what I would consider one boundary is my having snoozed her, which has brought relative peace.  Trivial things where she supposedly wants to collaborate, I do not engage her at all.  That is another boundary and it is for me.  She can put the flower pot wherever she wants.  If she is trying to do something uncivil to provoke a response like put the flower pot in my chair at the kitchen table, I tell her that is not acceptable, and after that I let her pound sand.  Disordered or not, she's an adult.  She knows the difference between right and wrong.  It is not my job to teach her.       

[Couper]

Now I realize this woman might have had some disorder, and her family was quiet due to not wanting to set her off further. My own reaction is interesting as it's similar to how I react to my BPD mother's accusations- and why rather than just forget the incident, I was questioning myself.

This is one positive that has come out of this whole grueling ordeal.  It has given me a greater understanding of the world.  Prior to all of this I probably would have lumped this poor woman's family into the same pot as her, but now I look at these things with a greater sense of compassion.  You can never know all of the ordeals that someone else has to contend with behind closed doors.  Almost every action likely has a reason behind it and they likely had a good reason for remaining silent.

[Notwendy]

I had to do a lot of work on co-dependency to put a halt to those tendencies, so I can share something I learned that might help.

First it's good that you don't tolerate the behavior or enable it, and also that you don't see yourself as needing to teach her, she can learn on her own.

What I did learn is that while we can control our own behavior, we can't control someone else's. So yes, if she puts the flower pot on her chair, then you have control of your response.

But we can't control someone else's behavior- so if she's rude to a stranger, it's up to them to respond.
Unless she's putting someone in danger in which case I would call 9-11. But if she's just being a jerk in general, that's not something you can change.

Natural consequences are a good teacher. This is, if she's being rude to a stranger, and the stranger gets angry - well that's what happens. You know we learned that in kingergarden- play nice with the other kids, don't block the slide. She doesn't play nice? Others will respond. I would say, let them. Whether she learns from that or not, we can't help that.

The most important thing is your boundary and that you don't tolerate it.

[once removed]

why do you remain married?

no judgment or implication behind the question; is it circumstantial? staying together for the kids?

[Couper]

I had to do a lot of work on co-dependency to put a halt to those tendencies, so I can share something I learned that might help.

First it's good that you don't tolerate the behavior or enable it, and also that you don't see yourself as needing to teach her, she can learn on her own.

What I did learn is that while we can control our own behavior, we can't control someone else's. So yes, if she puts the flower pot on her chair, then you have control of your response.

But we can't control someone else's behavior- so if she's rude to a stranger, it's up to them to respond.
Unless she's putting someone in danger in which case I would call 9-11. But if she's just being a jerk in general, that's not something you can change.

Natural consequences are a good teacher. This is, if she's being rude to a stranger, and the stranger gets angry - well that's what happens. You know we learned that in kingergarden- play nice with the other kids, don't block the slide. She doesn't play nice? Others will respond. I would say, let them. Whether she learns from that or not, we can't help that.

The most important thing is your boundary and that you don't tolerate it.

Yep, I don't disagree with any of that.  It is still difficult to be present for a situation like you described, or a situation like I used to start this thread, and sit on the sidelines while an injustice against an innocent stranger is taking place.  You're not wrong, it's just to me that it's the natural human response to right a wrong against someone that doesn't deserve it and dealing with BPD's requires all of these things from us that are not natural human responses.

[Couper]

why do you remain married?

no judgment or implication behind the question; is it circumstantial? staying together for the kids?

Understood.  Very fair question.

Yes, first and foremost, kids are the priority in every decision I make and the thought of them not having me present as a buffer is not acceptable to me.  She would absolutely lose her marbles were I to divorce and I fear how she would warp them.

Second, I'm not a 9-to-5 W2 wage earner.  My work life is inextricably linked to the property that we own together.  It's not something I do from a laptop sitting in the spare bedroom.  Being self-employed is already an uphill battle in so many respects.  If it turns into a liquidate the property, move, etc. proposition, my business is sunk.  If it turns into something I have to buy my way out of, I can't support two households.  As a way out, I've pursued going back to the regular workforce (with a lot of good outside help) and nothing has come of it, but that's going off on a whole different tangent that's not really relevant here.      

[Notwendy]

Yes, it's uncomfortable seeing your partner bully someone else.

Stepping in to "rescue" the bullied person is a natural impulse but in this situation the pwBPD will see it as an attack on them, go into victim mode and react ( see Karpman drama triangle).

The problem with taking victim mode is that, if someone feels like a victim, then they don't see themselves as being accountable, so they don't learn from the experience. This might be one reason why your wife just does it over and over, but she might actually just not care and keep doing it anyway.

Most strangers would probably disengage, decide she's not worth dealing with. Some might actually give it back to her, but then, they become the problem.

This is hard to understand from the point of view of being empathetic. Most of us learned to "play nice" on the playground, so it's hard to know why anyone would do otherwise.

[EyesUp]

@Couper

Just came upon this thread, and I have to say:  I can relate.

My uB/ or maybe CPND stbx W has consistently:
- blocked the aisle with her shopping cart
- walked on the left side of the sidewalk
- driven in the left lane - often with a mile of traffic in back of her

If I note this behavior, I'm obviously not on her side.

Early in our relationship, I perceived this behavior as a sort of obliviousness, then later as a symptom of low empathy (before I knew that lack of empathy was a symptom of B cluster PDs). 

I haven't thought about this pattern in years, but this thread made it clear as day - in addition to the empathy aspect, in my W's case, these behaviors were/are intended to gain attention, force others to accommodate her, make her feel important/superior, and generally act as a power play that forces others to yield to her.   It's like it just snapped into focus.

Wow.

[Couper]

@Couper

Just came upon this thread, and I have to say:  I can relate.

My uB/ or maybe CPND stbx W has consistently:
- blocked the aisle with her shopping cart
- walked on the left side of the sidewalk
- driven in the left lane - often with a mile of traffic in back of her

Thank you.  It is a comfort to know that I am not alone, albeit I am sorry to hear that you are suffering the same.  Having to pick the least-worst of options and settle for it is not an enviable position.

Mine does all of the things you mentioned, including driving 45 mph on the interstate where everybody else is doing 75 mph.  Doesn't matter that what she's doing is terribly unsafe -- everyone else is wrong for driving so fast and she is right.  Maybe someday she'll get ticketed for impeding the flow of traffic... either before or after an accident.  Who cares who is right when you're in traction?  Hopefully without the kids in the car.  Sorry, going off on a tangent again.

Early in our relationship, I perceived this behavior as a sort of obliviousness, then later as a symptom of low empathy (before I knew that lack of empathy was a symptom of B cluster PDs). 

Understanding evolving over time is that thing with hindsight that makes you keep kicking yourself -- "If only I knew then what I know now".  Obliviousness is exactly what I chalked it up to, too.  I think it is natural for people that aren't screwed up in the head to want to give those around them the benefit of the doubt, to think someone's mistakes aren't intentional -- though when they are intentional, they aren't really mistakes, are they?

I haven't thought about this pattern in years, but this thread made it clear as day - in addition to the empathy aspect, in my W's case, these behaviors were/are intended to gain attention, force others to accommodate her, make her feel important/superior, and generally act as a power play that forces others to yield to her.   It's like it just snapped into focus.

Wow.

Another way I have phrased it is that my wife thrives on negative attention.  I can only come to that conclusion because so often when she knows what she is doing will have a bad outcome, she will pursue it with a passion, anyway.