If their audience is removed, will they still act out?

[Leaf56]

A lot of good stuff has been written on this thread, and I haven't had time to respond thoughtfully until now and I'm sure I'll miss stuff I wanted to respond to and wanted to say but I'll do my best.

Cair_Paravel wrote: "What struck me was the dissociation between his reality and what was actually happening in his life-I believe this perception is the common thread between BPD and Psychopathy, this distorted view of the self and how they should have an endless supply of attention- in BPD because they crave it and need it to feel okay, and in psychopathy because there is a narcissistic view of what they 'deserve' over and above anyone else. I'd be interested in your thoughts"

I think that pwBPD, many of them at least, were born with extreme sensitivities and proclivity to reading more into others' responses than is there. I also allow for the possibility that they're actually accurately reading what's there but that they are so self-conscious, or self-involved, or believe the world revolves only around them, etc. etc. that the minute (pronunced my-noot) rejections they perceive mean SOO much more to them than they do to those who don't have this maladaptation and in their defense, they can't know when they are children that everyone doesn't process this type of info the same way so I think we DO have to give them a small pass for the fact that their world-view was developed through their own highly sensitive lens. BUT, that in no way excuses the behavior as someone older than say, 12. Okay, I'm getting lost in this thought and could write a book, but hopefully there's something here of coherence.

So getting into the link between BPD and psychopathy that you and others were pondering. I think that, yes, there probably is a link and that perhaps the only difference is that psychopaths are missing a couple of important neural networks or something, but that the two personalities ARE indeed only a "twist of the brain" apart. But yes, both seem to be unable to really notice or care how their behavior impacts anyone else.

Flossy said: "I am beginning to swing towards the opinion that they are mad, totally mad, with a huge dose of immaturity and brattishness involved."

So what if the kernel of this idea was true. That pwBPD and psychopaths are somehow in a state of arrested development. They certainly behave like they're always in the two- to three-year-old state. They are certainly immature. Are they "totally mad"? Perhaps. Are pwBPD just a twist away from horrible crimes? Possibly. They are all really interesting thoughts, and I've definitely thought them before. After all, consider the incels of the world. They believe they are entitled to women's bodies, entitled to love, entitled to wealth and power. Those like Eliot Rodger who go on to murder seem to have BPD, autistic, and anti-social traits. For all we know, there's something in the brain that's leading to these things, but in the end, I KNOW my son can control himself around other people. I've seen him turn on a dime many times. So I'm not sure if it matters if their brains are different. Everyone's brains are different, and with the exception of schizophrenics, our society generally doesn't give anyone a pass for a different brain. But we all have to BEHAVE (as Flossy likes to say). So if they can and choose not to, then they're just being brats.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

Leaf,

Our world needs you to write a book.

I think you have written the outline of it here already.

Brilliant insight, brilliantly formed text.

With a viewpoint that is missing in the world of those exposed to BPD including professionals and caregivers.

You have a gift.

[Leaf56]

Thanks, Flossy, I appreciate that. I am actually a professional editor/writer whose career was spent at national US magazines, but if I ever wrote a book it would have to be under a pen name because I would never intentionally undermine the rest of my son's life and if I wrote a book I'd have to disclose personal anecdotes. If I could convince a reputable psychologist expert to write one with me, I'd go without credit just to get some of these ideas out to the public. I do think it's important that we start to change the direction of this discussion asap. I also understand that (probably) most parents of pwBPD aren't ready for it, but for those who are, they need to know it's ok.

[Flossy]

Thanks, Flossy, I appreciate that. I am actually a professional editor/writer whose career was spent at national US magazines, but if I ever wrote a book it would have to be under a pen name because I would never intentionally undermine the rest of my son's life and if I wrote a book I'd have to disclose personal anecdotes. If I could convince a reputable psychologist expert to write one with me, I'd go without credit just to get some of these ideas out to the public. I do think it's important that we start to change the direction of this discussion asap. I also understand that (probably) most parents of pwBPD aren't ready for it, but for those who are, they need to know it's ok.

It shows. I am impressed but not surprised.  I agree totally. Nobody is saying this out loud. I need to know it's ok and there must be many others who feel the same and yet feel shame attached to the decision. The global opinion is to teach ourselves tools to make communication easier between us and the pwBPD, which can make communication run smoother but changes nothing in the basic dynamic and nothing in the behaviour of the pwBPD. I feel it is futile to do so with the unsaid truth hanging in limbo. Nobody is saying it. It won't change their behaviour. They won't change.

[Leaf56]

Yeah, this is what happens when a few credentialed people successfully take over a field of study. They were probably able to do so because psychologists have traditionally shied away from treating pwBPD so it was probably sold as a "what have you got to lose" type of thing. But now I'd say people have plenty to lose—their own lives, not to mention the $40,000-$60,000 some spend on 30-day inpatient treatment programs. For me, finding out that Marsha Linehan, the woman who created DBT, is herself a pwBPD just sealed my skepticism of the current de rigueur treatment. While I agree with many of the underpinning teachings of DBT because, let's face it, they're just common sense and they are skills that people without BPD already have, I don't agree with what you and I have discussed here—the need for treatment to include behavior change in those around the pwBPD. Now that idea can get dicey because of course there must be parents who are awful and bad and contributing to their kids' development and persistence of BPD traits. But I'd wager that that group is rather small. And if you think about it, you know how we here support each other because we can pretty much tell that we as parents were not bad. Well, guess what? Marsha Linehan blames her mom. Ring any bells? If not, here's a summary of Linehan's own account of her childhood:

"In Linehan’s life, the mother is the image of the invalidating environment – Marsha was never quite right – she came within a hair’s breadth of inventing self psychology but once she ended up on the inpatient psychiatric unit and had been subjected to the rigors of electro shock “therapy” that game was over – to save herself she had to wok from the outside inwards behaviorally and invent DBT.

So what did Linehan actually have to survive? She was the round peg in the square hole of her family. She was smart, got good grades, was out-spoken, and even popular in her own eccentric way. All the women in the Linehan family are waif like – thin; Marsha is “large-boned” and if she is not cautious those bones can acquire adipose tissue. The mother is prim and proper and the model of an executive’s wife. The executive was remote, taking solace in his work, and keeping his distance from the “house wife obsessions” of the mother of his children. He emotionally abandons Marsha. Meanwhile, according to Marsha’s mom, she [Marsha] just couldn’t do anything right.

Marsha needed fixing and no one knew better how to do it than mom. Yet no matter how much Marsha improved, no matter how good she got, Mom consistently found something to criticize. One can only get better for so long; then one has to be good enough.

The sister’s example was always there to be thrown at Marsha. And mom apparently even warned the sister to stay away from Marsha, further isolating her emotionally in the family, as Marsha was apparently a bad example. She was getting good grades and popular – a bad example of what? “Girls were supposed to be demure, sweetly charming, quietly spoken, and not given to expressing strong opinions, especially around men. They should defer to men at all times and in all things” (p, 111). Her mom valued a “girly girl,” who knew her place. This was not going to go well.

Marsha starts living into the devaluing judgments of her close relatives. Marsha gets to adolescence and her “apparent competence,” her skill in maintaining a false self [not Linehan’s term], the good girl, even if a tad eccentric, breaks down. She has some dates, but she never succeeds in getting a steady boy friend in high school. She comes unraveled, beset with acting out in the form of cutting – what would come to be called para suicidal behavior thanks to DBT.

There was a noticeable absence of trauma in Linehan’s life, except those traumas which she eventually inflicts on herself in cutting with a razor and related para suicidal acting out. But invalidation was pervasive. If empathy is like oxygen for the soul (psyche), Linehan was suffocating. She starts flailing about like someone who can’t breathe.

A constant drumbeat occurs of “you are not all right,” of “you are not important,” “you are less than.” Highly destructive to the nuclear self.

Even though Marsha eventually overcomes many of her demons, mom’s behavior never changes in spite of an honest effort. For example, years later, Marsha is getting her doctorate in social psychology, a significant accomplishment under any circumstances. Congratulations? “Mother had made a dress for me for Aline’s [her sister’s] wedding, and on the morning of graduation she was more focused on fitting my dress than she was on my getting a doctorate.”

To this I say, puh-leeze. Every parent here has heard this nonsense. Let's call a spade a spade.

[Cair_Paravel]

Fascinating Leaf, really enjoying your take on this, you are obviously very well-read around this subject!

I just want to add a few thoughts, not so much as a defence of Linehan, but just to add in another possible dimension to this.

I am a therapist myself, and I can see how easy it is to develop theories on the basis of the patients experience alone- and as we know, Marsha built her therapy around extensive experience with pwBPD

It’s so easy with clients ( I work with teenagers) to take what they say at face value, that everyone’s against them, that they have been hard done by etc, and in fact I have a few colleagues that regularly fall into this kind of tunnel vision. Of course it is partly a therapists role to validate a clients experience, but perhaps my own personal experience has given me some insight into what this might look like to the wider family- it’s certainly given me good intuition when a young person has a BPD mother, doesn’t happen often, but I can usually spot the signs pretty early on now

I think the major part lacking in Linehans work is viewing the pwBPD in the wider context of the family, and a distinct lack of objectivity.

Edited to add:
It's strange because most of the research on psychopathy has approached the pwPsychopathys account with scepticism and assumes some kind of fact-checking with reality (especially in forensic settings), it seems to have been forgotten in Linehans work that you are basically working with a distorted reality-maybe its easier to doubt a client group who are committing crimes and are behind bars, than someone who comes across as the victim?

[Cair_Paravel]

For all we know, there's something in the brain that's leading to these things, but in the end, I KNOW my son can control himself around other people. I've seen him turn on a dime many times. So I'm not sure if it matters if their brains are different. 

This has been the part of my experience that has been the hardest to deal with-swinging between the idea that my dwBPD can't control herself because how else can I explain such absolutely shocking behaviour?, yet SEEING it right in front of me how she can control it around both grandmothers, people at school and now college.

[Leaf56]

Cair_Paravel,
Yep, yep, and yep!

You said: "It's strange because most of the research on psychopathy has approached the pwPsychopathys account with scepticism and assumes some kind of fact-checking with reality (especially in forensic settings), it seems to have been forgotten in Linehans work that you are basically working with a distorted reality-maybe its easier to doubt a client group who are committing crimes and are behind bars, than someone who comes across as the victim?"

That is SUCH an interesting insight. See? If we all just put our heads together, we can probably come up with some pretty interesting working premises. When we start thinking outside the box and start analyzing and finding patterns in our own experiences with pwBPD (and possibly stop listening to the people who developed the prevailing theories, the most prominent of whom has actually said she is a pwBPD), we might actually start making some progress on this.

I feel like in your first reply here that your started writing feeling like you might be defending Linehan's work somewhat but that by the end of the post you started seeing why her work is problematic. I found that interesting in itself. I think that might be what everyone does once they start giving it a hard look. But really, I'm not here to dump on Marsha Linehan. I only first heard of her a couple months ago. I really want to figure out how best to deal with my son and I really don't want to waste my time. I'm a very results-oriented person and I approach everything as a puzzle that needs to be solved and I want to solve this puzzle.

[Cair_Paravel]

Hi Leaf,

I think any approach that takes too narrow a view can be problematic. I’m a CBT therapist and take the approach that most mental health disorders have at least an element of cognitive distortion. With depression and anxiety it can be straightforward enough to correct these with practice and reality testing however BPD is a whole different ball game.

I think having this dual view is why it’s absolutely impossible for me to be my daughters therapist, although she has requested it and asked to me to ‘fix’ her on numerous occasions. I just can’t buy into the reality she would likely present knowing my own view on it!

[Cair_Paravel]

I should probably say that I would be happy for my daughter to enter a DBT program, as I do think there are worthwhile things in there and I have seen it work!

Where is live is a stepped care model- they start with the easiest (cheapest) approach then continue up the scale if this isn’t working. My daughter had begun this process, got 8 weeks of CBT then dropped out when they wanted to give her weekly support from a mental health support worker ( she said ‘I’m not interested in doing gardening every week’) so unfortunately she never got to the place where DBT might be offered

[Leaf56]

Hi Cair, I would think that of course you can't be your daughter's therapist, but you must also see the value in treating her yourself since you know her so well, and thus the internal conflict. My son was in therapy for a couple years in high school for depression and suicidal ideation. I have to say I didn't have much confidence in his therapist, and in the end I'm sure I ended up helping too much and essentially becoming his therapist, which is why he wants to talk to me about his problems 24/7, I guess. I did not want to be in that position though. I know I'm very insightful and know a lot about mental health for a layperson and know him very well and experienced a lot of the problems he was experiencing myself. BUT now I know for sure that it was a mistake to become his de facto therapist and that I should have tried to find a more competent professional. The college years contained little outward drama except for a few bouts of depression, suicidal ideation, clinginess, fear of growing up. Now he says he was just not expressing the horror that was raging inside him. Since he moved to his dad's and the drama started 2 years ago with all the explosive anger and blaming, I knew that there's no way I could help him in a therapy type way because his thought processes are so completely insane that not even one of the top research psychiatrists in NYC, who I hired to treat him from February through May (when the guy gave up) could figure out what was wrong with him, even after 10 hours of testing by a top forensic psychologist. It wasn't until this summer that I came to believe he has BPD. He checks every box in spades. It's also possible he's in the prodrome of schizophrenia, but he's never once had an auditory or visual hallucination and does not suffer from any persecutory delusions. The top NYC psychiatrist diagnosed him with psychotic depression, but he and I are the only ones to whom he revealed his truly insane thoughts. If it weren't for the hundreds of texts he was sending me, his dad and brother might not have even believed that this was happening, and even after reading the texts they both concluded that he was just doing it to get to me, which is what he in fact told them.

Anyway, I also believe that the skills learned in DBT are essential to anyone, and that everyone needs to learn them. The fact that pwBPD haven't learned them yet IS the problem. If my son could attend the inpatient DBT program at McLean for free, I'd suggest he go. If he could do a local DBT program for free, I'd suggest he do it. But the fact that I'd have to pay IS the problem because then it makes it an issue between him and me. I believe it's all about the struggle. If they can bother you somehow about it, whether it be financial or just that they know you want them to go, they will and they'll turn IT into the drama. He has quit every attempt I've made to get him into a workable therapy situation since all this dramatic over-the-top stuff started 2 years ago. He's been hospitalized 3 times, gone through 5 different therapists, dropped out of a DBT program he was enrolled in, refuses the intensive outpatient programs I've offered. So today is his birthday. He's 25. He has one more year on my insurance. I'm not interested in getting him into therapy anymore but he's free to set it up and go on his own within the next year and it will be partially paid for by insurance. After that, he's on his own.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Leaf56]

So earlier today I agreed to take a walk around a nearby lake in a busy public park with my 25-year-old son with BPD. After a while we sat down on a bench, and he became so frustrated with himself and, I suppose, with the fact that I wouldn't say what he wanted to hear that he leaned forward toward the lake and let out an extremely loud rageful roar/scream, that resounded throughout the park and drew a ton of attention to us, or I imagine it did because I immediately walked quickly away. I haven't said here before that my son said some things over the course of about 6 months a little over a year ago that made me very afraid of him, and it took a long time for me to be able to be in his presence again. I was to the point where I'd mostly gotten over that and figured (hopefully) that he was just saying those things for attention. When this happened today, I mostly calmly called an Uber for him and told him I'd wait until it got there. When he made moves toward me I kind of kept backing away and he asked all disgustedly "What? Are you afraid of me?" I said, "Yes, and you have no right to question that given what just happened and what you've said before." He became all apologetic, and I told him not to bother, that I just wanted to get home as soon as possible and that I did not want to talk to him. So, would he have screamed had I not been there? I doubt it. Was he once again trying to express the exquisiteness of his pain? Probably. Did I feel unsafe? Yes. What will I do now? I don't know. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts.

[Flossy]

When he made moves toward me I kind of kept backing away and he asked all disgustedly "What? Are you afraid of me?" I said, "Yes, and you have no right to question that given what just happened and what you've said before." He became all apologetic, and I told him not to bother, that I just wanted to get home as soon as possible and that I did not want to talk to him. So, would he have screamed had I not been there? I doubt it. Was he once again trying to express the exquisiteness of his pain? Probably. Did I feel unsafe? Yes. What will I do now? I don't know. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts.

Hi Leaf,
To handle it from the concept that we are dealing with Psychopaths, I would not give him the power of stating that you are afraid of him. If there is any level of Psychopathy, he could gather a sense of power from knowing that and also elevate his behaviours to repeat that feeling in you.
Possibly take it to a point where he becomes violent towards you. Or worse.

I would not change anything you did in this situation apart from two things.

- If he comes makes moves towards you, put your hand up in a "stop" signal and say "Back off Buddy/Buster" with your head held up and eye contact.

- If he said "What, are you afraid of me?". DON'T say YES.. Say something blunt and masculine such as "I dont need this sh*t".  "You acted like a dick then".

He may have screamed had you not been there. He may do this in public more and more if his madness is  escalating. He may not have but he doesn't get to make it a fun performance to do  where he walks away feeling he has done something "amazing" or "unusual" or "unique". Let him do that in the Psych ward next time he does it in public and use the staff as his audience. He doesn't get to use you as his audience any more.

What I am getting at is to not feed the "Psychopathy?" by giving him a new power to use in his arsenal. There is a guy who was a profiler for Psychopathic criminals who talked about how to be safer in the street using body language and eye contact when you feel unsafe. It may have been the guy who wrote Mindhunter. I am not sure because I have read so much over the years it gets mixed up. But a Psychopath sees any form of weakness as a portal to get into your head further and use their power over you.

I hope I have explained that well enough. I am not thinking deeply.

I would also ask yourself how often you would see a neuro-typical 25 year old son and set up a rule for yourself on how often you will see him. I would think no more often than once a month, if that.

If you are emotionally affected by seeing him (of course you are, what am I saying) I would put it at every two months at most.

 I would not see him if he asks.

 Maybe only every second time he asks, taking great care about the location.

Somewhere relatively public, not isolated, never alone in a car together, never at your place or his place.

Let me know if there is any area of this that you would like more thoughts on please.

I would also make sure he doesn't get to come to your house and doesn't have a key that works for your locks. Don't announce any of that to him. Don't tell him he is not allowed to come to your house. If you have to say anything, dont make it about him, say that you have decided you need a lot of headspace and won't be taking visitors this year. If he has a key, change the locks without saying a thing. Again, because you don't want him to feel any sense of wielding power.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, thanks again for your very thoughtful and supportive response. My son tried very hard to convince me he's a psychopath a little less than 2 years ago, right before his first hospitalization. After much convincing on his part, I believed him. Then about six months later, before his second hospitalization, he tried to convince me that he was not, but by then the damage was done. He said he was only saying those things to hurt me. Unfortunately, they were so specific and ultimately rang so true, that, as I said above, it took me a long time to be in his presence and then to even feel safe in his presence. What he did yesterday shattered any trust I had developed and now he has to take responsibility for that. When he asked me if I was afraid of him, he was referring to this long-standing issue between us. I've told him before he has no right to think I'm ridiculous when he spent dozens of hours convincing me that he's an evil person who wants to harm people and who loathes women and hinted that he could hurt them as payback for them being awful. He painted the perfect picture of a serial killer, then he took it all back and said I'm ridiculous for ever believing any of that. His father and brother, despite my showing them the texts, completely bought his story that he was saying it just to bother me. They kept saying, "but has he actually DONE anything? These are just words" to which I would respond "yeah, well Bundy never actually did anything until he did." I still have no idea what's real and what's not, but I intend to protect myself and my current husband and other teenaged son who live with me. In case anyone was wondering, it's mostly because of this that I would never allow my son to live in my home again. I would never sleep thinking he'd sneak in at night and kill all of us.

Flossy, I've also thought a lot about the idea that showing my fear delights him. Believe me when I say I've thought about this from every angle. On one level I'm kind of happy he did this because it gives me an easy excuse not to see him. I was so happy last year when he broke contact with me for 6 months. I was hoping it would last forever.

As to safety, he does not have a key to our home. Since things had been going well, I had told him that if he got vaccinated he could come during the day. My (large and strong) husband is here all the time working from home due to covid, and I said that as long as I continued to see stabilization and progress that he could come over to visit for a few hours. That's now off the table. Adults should be held 100% accountable for both their words and actions. This toddler tantrum he threw yesterday just proved to me that no progress has been made and we are back to square one.

When I got home my ex-husband, with whom my adult BPD son lives, informed me that his father had died. He said our son "cried and actually seemed to care." Son called brother, who lives out of state, and wanted to talk about the death. Out of state son called to tell me he was furious with BPD son because BPD son started out commiserating about their mutual loss but them quickly turned the conversation back to himself to talk about all of his own complaints. Out of state son got very angry and ended call, called me and said "I'm through with him." First time out of state son has recognized what I've been trying to tell him since this whole nightmare began 2 years ago.

[Leaf56]

I just had an insight when I just read this quote:

Dr. Perry D. Hoffman, president and co-founder of the National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder, explained one of the defining aspects of the disorder in an exclusive interview with HellaWella: “It occurs in the context of relationships. Unlike other psychiatric diagnoses, if you put someone with schizophrenia on an island all by themselves, their mental illness would still be evident. If you put someone with BPD on an island, you wouldn’t necessarily see the symptoms — whatever happens, happens in the context of [interacting] with someone else.”

So my thought is yes, BUT, as I've said earlier they can also be having a reaction to the relationship they're keeping with you in their head, so BPD could easily masquerade as a schizoaffective disorder if the therapist isn't taking that fact into account, and moreover, the fact of social media can keep a person who's looking at it in a constant triggered state even if they're not interacting with someone on it because just seeing someone else having a good time or enjoying wealth or status or whatever they're envious of will keep them in a constant state of being triggered SO it seems to me that one of the most important things needed to treat BPD is to get the person off social media entirely. If I had a child in my home under 18 with this condition I would 100% ban all social media. In fact, I wouldn't even allow them to have a phone because they don't know they're being ignored if they can't tell that they are. I might even homeschool such a person because now I'm thinking that this disordered personality could hopefully be lessened if these two interventions were put in place early. The conventional wisdom would be the opposite, that they have to interact with peers to get used to it, but now I'm thinking maybe it's just the opposite. I'm totally just riffing here with ideas I'm thinking of just now so please forgive the completely unformulated nature of them and please jump in with any thoughts.

[Flossy]

Leaf
I will try to get back to this in a few days. I made the mistake of reading another thread with another viewpoint about us changing causing change in them. That it "works". I just cant do it anymore. In my opinion it "works" to the extent of being able to tolerate having a 4 year old in an adults' body
in your life.

I Can't read this stuff. It makes me tired and triggers me.

Not your posts, but other posts like the other thread you are on.

So I need a break. PS I agree with the whole concept of not validating anything about their thinking, which is actually the opposite of everything that is taught on this platform and others.

I have to bring my soul and heart back to "I'm done" and I am so glad of that. We have to follow what gives our heart some peace. They can do the same or get their positive feelings, living in rage and manipulation without us.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, don't despair. I'm pretty sure the poster on the other thread was simply agreeing with us in spades. It's all good. Don't leave. Just keep on keepin' on, mama!

[Flossy]

Today, I am in despair. I won't leave but I do need a break from reading and empathising and seeing the hope that others have, that I believe in my soul is futile. I want to write one word answers to questions that people ask. Answers like "no" , "Stop it", "Give up now". I just can't hear it any more.

 I know that is not fair to want to do that, because I know these parents want to have hope. I know they are not at the stage we have reached, but I also know they may never reach that stage because of false hope they are given.

Words of support and understanding which can be easily miscontrued as glimmers of hope. "If only they just keep using the tools and being consistent and not reacting and validating. Surely, there will be positive change, surely there will be growth, surely they will see the child they gave birth to and have some kind of meaningful relationship with them."

 I can't watch it. It's like watching a train wreck and feeling powerless to stop it. Feeling like a traitor to the cause. The cause of reducing reactivity through consistency and validation and boundaries, creating a reasonable relationship.

So many people here will descend into full-blown C- PTSD through continuing to try, despite all evidence that nothing works. I just want someone to read that and consider it to possibly be the absolute truth.

I know you know it Leaf. Is there just one more mother or father who considers it thoroughly and concludes that it's hopeless?

It's the truth and it's okay to cut them out of your life right now and forevermore. If someone reads that years down the track, it's enough.

I

[Lollypop]

Hi Leaf & Flossy

Ok. I hear you.

I hit that wall of hopelessness.

The biggest thing I did was get MY life back. My whole energy had been put into my bpd adult son and I still failed. I failed to change him and, in my thinking that was my biggest failure.

No. My biggest failure was not to focus on my own life and happiness above everyone else. This was a double failing because I wasn’t teaching my kids how to live a good/better life.

How to flip from a lose/lose to a win/win situation?

Focus on your own happiness and well/being.

I found life isn’t black/white. I found a way to live in the grey area with my adult son on this forum, but my situation isn’t yours.

You both sound exhausted. It’s ok to take a break, however long that needs to be.

My life is far from perfect, there are problems but I’m happy. I took up a college course, spent more time with my friends and far less time worrying about how to change somebody that I couldn’t.

Take very good care of yourselves.
Hugs
LP

[Leaf56]

Hey guys, I'd rather not hijack my own thread to try to sort out what I think has just been a misunderstanding, but I think it could be educational. We need to look at Lollypop's approach and Flossy's approach as being essentially identical, because they are. I understand what you're reacting to Flossy, and I see where Lollypop is possibly approaching this as someone who's been on this board a long time and has already enacted a hard-fought-for approach to her situation and was simply responding with her answer to my original post, which is exactly the conclusion that I've already come to. But, I think the caveat here is, as I've said before, that there is a key difference between Flossy's daughter and Lollypop's and my sons and that is that Flossy's daughter is in a very secure financial situation and Lollypop's son and my son were/are in a highly precarious financial situation. I think the dynamic changes entirely when the adult child is close to living on the street. Also, I believe Flossy said her daughter is in her 50s (?) and Lollypop's and my son are mid-20s. We've both just started on the journey of forcing them to help themselves and are still sorting out the kinks whereas you've lived it for 25 more years. We have to, though, acknowledge the wisdom of those who've tread this ground before us and recognize that they are truth tellers. That's what I saw the minute I started reading the forum, what?, 8 or so weeks ago. That's why I immediately wanted to know if any of the "expert"-recommended therapies or approaches have worked because I could see by reading, as plain as day, that they haven't and that, yes, Flossy, many unwitting folks are being led down the not-so-rosy garden path to a future of pain. HOWEVER, I also recognize that everybody's different and that most people could NEVER bring themselves to "give up" on their child, even if it's in their child's best interest. Also, you have to remember that many people on this forum have children under 18 and therefore they have a legal and moral obligation to continue to try as well as a practical reason to try because they have to continue to live under the same roof as their child with BPD. These are just my thoughts, I hope they don't ruffle any feathers. I respect everyone's circumstance and approach, and I know that everyone has to do what they think is best. I also understand how maddening what Flossy interpreted was happening can be. All any of us can do is share our experiences and read about others' in the hopes of getting to a better place that either does or does not include our adult child with BPD. It's because of the incredible pain and anguish that jettisoning your own flesh and blood causes that reading anything that even slightly implies a negative judgment about your decision will necessarily once again engender that incredible pain and anguish that you already had to go through to get there. I doubt that anyone who makes that decision will ever be completely secure in that decision. I don't think it's possible. And that's why any doubting of it will probably always cause a person to react. Does that make any sense, folks?

[Flossy]

Hey guys, I'd rather not hijack my own thread to try to sort out what I think has just been a misunderstanding, but I think it could be educational. We need to look at Lollypop's approach and Flossy's approach as being essentially identical, because they are. I understand what you're reacting to Flossy, and I see where Lollypop is possibly approaching this as someone who's been on this board a long time and has already enacted a hard-fought-for approach to her situation and was simply responding with her answer to my original post, which is exactly the conclusion that I've already come to. But, I think the caveat here is, as I've said before, that there is a key difference between Flossy's daughter and Lollypop's and my sons and that is that Flossy's daughter is in a very secure financial situation and Lollypop's son and my son were/are in a highly precarious financial situation. I think the dynamic changes entirely when the adult child is close to living on the street.

...As always Leaf, You have an expert's ability to present the whole case from every single viewpoint, which avoids misunderstandings and feather -ruffling. You are a gem. My husband had to stop me from responding with "an eye-roll" to Lollypops post. It made me want to rant about how nobody should assume what they know about how I have moved forward with looking after my life or if I have achieved peace. I am not exhausted by the fight, but by stock answers and platitudes such as those offered in the reply. Condescenion and assumptions made without first asking for clarification hurt my soul and add to the injustice of this whole mess. The impact of the need to do that ought to be  considered more.

Also, I believe Flossy said her daughter is in her 50s (?) and Lollypop's and my son are mid-20s. We've both just started on the journey of forcing them to help themselves and are still sorting out the kinks whereas you've lived it for 25 more years.

...Yes, she is 51 and I have not seen her for 14 years.

We have to, though, acknowledge the wisdom of those who've tread this ground before us and recognize that they are truth tellers.

...Thank you. I am a truth teller.

That's what I saw the minute I started reading the forum, what?, 8 or so weeks ago. That's why I immediately wanted to know if any of the "expert"-recommended therapies or approaches have worked because I could see by reading, as plain as day, that they haven't and that, yes, Flossy, many unwitting folks are being led down the not-so-rosy garden path to a future of pain. HOWEVER, I also recognize that everybody's different and that most people could NEVER bring themselves to "give up" on their child, even if it's in their child's best interest. Also, you have to remember that many people on this forum have children under 18 and therefore they have a legal and moral obligation to continue to try as well as a practical reason to try because they have to continue to live under the same roof as their child with BPD. These are just my thoughts, I hope they don't ruffle any feathers.

...Absolutely. I wish all had the insight regarding communication to go that little bit extra as you do. I see the reason why a mother of a son in their 20's at physical risk would not consider giving up. I had a 20 year old son once. He died 20 years ago from CF at the age of 20. So I know how it is to fight for a son at risk.

I respect everyone's circumstance and approach, and I know that everyone has to do what they think is best. I also understand how maddening what Flossy interpreted was happening can be. All any of us can do is share our experiences and read about others' in the hopes of getting to a better place that either does or does not include our adult child with BPD. It's because of the incredible pain and anguish that jettisoning your own flesh and blood causes that reading anything that even slightly implies a negative judgment about your decision will necessarily once again engender that incredible pain and anguish that you already had to go through to get there.

...Yep, exactly what happened and exactly what I feared happening by giving my viewpoint on here. Thank you so much for putting the pain into such easily understood words.

 I doubt that anyone who makes that decision will ever be completely secure in that decision. I don't think it's possible. And that's why any doubting of it will probably always cause a person to react. Does that make any sense, folks?

...More responses within the quote above. I dont know why it formatted like this.
...Makes pure sense. I am going to undo the alert to new posts for this thread and I dont want to hear more for now. But I take heart in the fact that these thoughts are out there for someone in the future who may want to read them and consider them worthwhile and understandable.

Thank you Leaf and I do appreciate your effort Lollypop. I may come back on in a few years to see how everyone is doing. Best wishes to all in your choices and in following what your heart tells you, you need to do.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Leaf56]

Class act, Flossy. I will truly miss you and your insight ❤️

[Flossy]

Hey Leaf, How is it going? I sneaked on a couple of times to check in on you.

[Leaf56]

Hey, lady! So happy and thankful you checked in on me. I really appreciate it. How are you? Things have been mostly quiet since since he got back from his grandfather's funeral (ex's father). He says it "really made him think," "want to change more than ever," "want to put all this crap with the way he's been behaving behind him and get back to being the person he used to be" (he was always very well behaved, loving, and pleasant to be around from about age 10 to 22, but was depressed and suicidal from 15 on), he says he "wants to be my son again." I told him I'm skeptical, that I'm still afraid of him, that he can't just say he wants to change or that he's going to change, but that he has to actually change and that he'd have to work hard to earn any trust back and that what I needed to see in him is stability and movement toward his goals and not just this endless talking about them. He called middle of last week for advice on how to find someone to be in a relationship with. He was being pleasant so I engaged with him about that for a while, but the conversations always just strike me as efforts to engage me in somehow validating his depressive world view, even though he continually insists that he's genuine in his quest for information on how to find and keep a normal relationship. These "pleasant" conversations always strike me now as auditions, and I told him that. I'm just in this state now of assuming the other shoe will drop and that it's just a matter of when, but this time I would like it to drop without my being involved in any way. I think I've identified the pattern of explosion, then instant intense regret, then efforts at reconciliation, then reeling me back in with pleasant conversations, which somehow seem to lead to intensifying distress on his part (perhaps because he's not getting what he wants from these conversations), which then leads to another explosion, and then the process starts again.

[Flossy]

 ...He says it "really made him think," "want to change more than ever," "want to put all this crap with the way he's been behaving behind him and get back to being the person he used to be"

- As you already know, they do tend to study the jargon and know exactly what they think we need to hear. Whether this is child-like thinking or manipulation we can't always know in each circumstance, but for sure they are doing it because it is what they think will placate us.

..he says he "wants to be my son again.
- Hmm! This actually sounds like a genuine need to me. It sounds as though he is saying he is willing to do what it takes, but of course he doesnt know how.

..and that what I needed to see in him is stability and movement toward his goals and not just this endless talking about them.
- Because of the correlation we believe exists between ASD and BPD, he will need exact examples of what you need to see. Sadly, this is your job to give him the exact example of what will qualify. It needs to be concrete evidence.
Eg:
* I need to see a payslip for at least 10 hours a week work.
*I need to see one job application per week.
*I need to see one verified lifestyle maintenance thing you have done in exchange for living at your father's house. (verified by his fathers signature)

Initially, I would not ask for any more than one example. He will not cope with trying to do two. As with my ASD husband I can only ask for one.

HOLY CRAP I just remembered the method I used to turn my marriage around with my ASD husband. I will link it below.

The relationship has to be run like a job. Detailing expectations one at a time at first and then moving on to more than one as soon as that one expectation becomes a part of his mindset and habit. (something he no longer considers worth a fight)

In this "job" you are the Manager and he is the employee. He needs you in order to live the life he wants to live. He needs your love, approval and guidance. But just as in a job, he doesnt get that unless he behaves and
if he breaks the guidelines of the position, he is given disciplinary action.

Oh my Lordy, I am opening myself up to massive criticism here from other members, but hey guys, unless you are married to an ASD man, pull your head in.

In my marriage I am the Manager and he is the Employee. But only in one aspect which is his Aspergers Behaviours that affect me.

I found a Therapist who wrote out a document for outlining Behaviours that need to change and I decided to hold a meeting once a week to fill out the form and then evaluate performance. I was ready for pushback but it didn't happen. My husband actually loves having exact guidelines to the behaviours that bother me. He cant remember them on a daily basis so having it written out in the form works perfectly for him. I get him to sign it and he gets a copy. ( we fill out two) I ask him to keep his copy on the fridge so he can be reminded of what he has to focus on and integrate this week.

In your case it would be/could be once a fortnight or once a month. You dont want to see him once a week I dont think. But you could I guess do a FaceTime if you want to get him engaged in it.

The one most important aspect of this system is a Disciplinary Action he must agree to if he fails to stop the Behaviour That Must Stop that week.
For my husband it was that I wanted him to stay at a Backpackers for the following working week, of any week that he failed to stop the behaviour.
He never had to do that. But, I did have to add another Disciplinary Action which involved him not being allowed to sleep in our bed. One behaviour was having a little more beer than he can cope with, which results in him acting like a total loudmouth dickhead. We did an agreement that if he did that resulting in an extreme amount of dickheadedness, he would have to
go to the Backpackers Hostel. He didn't but he did have a tiny bit more than he can handle and got the "I am trying really hard to not look like I am pissed" look on his face. Unlucky for him, I am hyper alert, so I told him he has to sleep on the couch. Another night he was a bit worse and he was told he had to sleep downstairs on a sleeping bag in his office.

It's so strange. I felt terrible guilt over doing this, but he seemed so  compliant and even happier and less anxious. He NEEDED IT.

I dont know what Disciplinary Action your boy will respond to in order to avoid it, but am happy to mull it out with you.

...These "pleasant" conversations always strike me now as auditions, and I told him that.
- This is an ASD trait. When anxiety is high, they try to emulate normal behaviours and it becomes a rehearsal, an act. Eg: Males with ASD do not have sexuality as part of their normal self. It is something that they have to come out of self in order to perform. Same with affection.

Today, my husband asked how he could make my day better. I told him I want more affection, but he has to adjust how he approaches me for a kiss. He tends to look at me, focus and then it becomes a slow motion movement towards me with his mouth ready and its so weird. He straight up said "I know its weird". I said "If you know why haven't you fixed it?" He said "Because I'm an Aspie and it takes ages."

Well hopefully now that is out, I will get lovely normal kisses from my husband.

...He called middle of last week for advice on how to find someone to be in a relationship with.
- I believe this is of paramount importance to him. Again, I leave myself wide open to horrified criticism here, but here goes. I think that what he says he needs in a  partner is in fact exactly what he does need.

He needs a partner who will look after him. So that he doesn't have to be a "normal" husband. Someone who understands and accepts diversity, is willing to learn about ASD and BPD and instilling coping methods into the relationship and willing to negotiate roles and duties.

He needs someone who is the major breadwinner.

But in order for that to work and for him to have a positive and honest relationship he has to write out a blueprint for exactly what he wants in a relationship and commit to discussing it and refining it with anyone he becomes involved with. He will need to use every communication skill he has used in the past to manipulate and turn it around to present it to the other person as a "I would like ..., would that be a problem for you?"

He has to train himself that if the partner does not agree then it is negotiation and compromise time, rather than 'chuck a tanty time".

He can do all of this as a Life School exercise and keep a manual charting what he needs in a relationship and what he needs to negotiate while he is in it. The need for an explosion is to be his new clue that this is negotiation time.

That's all I have got for now. But I am sure there is much more detail we can mull over.

I will dig into my laptop and find the documents you will need for your negotiating with him and post them here.

My thoughts on a partner are that he needs someone mature and organised and determined. I am sure he has a lot to bring to a relationship  for the right person. None of which will make the relationship traditional, but mine isn't and it is working after 30 years, despite us not knowing he was on the spectrum until last year.

[Leaf56]

Flossy, as always, thanks so much for giving this so much thought. I totally see where you're coming from and I appreciate your offer to dig up info, but it's up to my son to figure out his own life now. I already spent 25 years raising and guiding him. He doesn't need anything more from me. It's now time for him to apply all the life lessons I carefully taught him and good behavior I modeled for him since he was born. He knows what he needs to do, he just doesn't want to, and he wants to use his sensitivities or other nonsense he's dreamed up as an excuse for why he doesn't have to. But there's really NOTHING wrong with him. We all have issues we have to overcome. He can figure it out...or not.

[Flossy]

Okay, I do understand how you are thinking. I was just coming from the angle of him possibly also being slightly on the spectrum, in which case he would need these methods. He would not be capable of doing it without the help of someone who knows him well. My husband has responded well to me leading him through these methods as, though he is highly intelligent, he is totally unable to consider these methods by himself. It is like teaching an alien how to be a human. He learns how, in each instance, after several exposures.

I can see that if you truly feel he has no place on the spectrum then it is not your job.

[Leaf56]

Without getting into the details, I’m going to assume that you trust me to know what I’m doing as I trust you.

[Sancho]

Flossy in an earlier post you say

They are no longer admitted to public hospitals in Australia due to the futility of trying to treat them).


This is just not true!

[Flossy]

Without getting into the details, I’m going to assume that you trust me to know what I’m doing as I trust you.

Of course I do. I was giving rambling thoughts for you to ponder. I am bit flummoxed why you felt the need to say this. Were you offended?

Perhaps I wrote it as too much like fact, I was tired and it could have come across as knowing-it-all. I can see that. Where in my head I was throwing out ideas. Not in a good writing space as far as structuring sentences and meaning. Forums make me tired.

I do apologise if I am grated on your nerves.