What if she's too afraid/ashamed to reach out?

[stolencrumbs]

Speaking of shows.
   My ex badgered our daughter to go her location to take care of “her “ dog. My daughter was stressed. I told her just suggest the dog can come here. That’s how it played out. I didn’t see the “ex”.
No contact
   So I’m “Walter “ in the “Big Lebowski”. Watching my crazy ex’s dog haha.
    Honestly I’m glad to be in this frame of mind finally. It’s no big deal. I know better then to be around during transfers  and have no desire (deep down )to see her anymore. It’s not worth the regression to my karma.
  The wheels do keep turning. Their wheels just spin faster.
   Nothing wrong with just talking to clouds and dogs.
You’ll get there. 

F*** it dude, let's go bowling.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ichi]

strong move not watching her social media. its easy for the most innocuous thing to just make your head spin.

Just found out the hard way. Don't worry, I didn't watch her social media and definitely not going to. However, I was wondering if she still had her job and realized I still had access to her work schedule. So I looked and saw that she had taken a long weekend off from work. And apparently that was enough to get me into a fit of anxiety.

My imagination is totally running wild right now, I'm thinking she's probably going on a trip with her replacement, or she's taking a few days off to move into his place. All kinds of worst case scenarios are running through my mind and I'm driving myself crazy, thinking everything is still going well with her replacement after 3 months and they're getting closer and closer and I'm losing her more and more.

It's just that my gut feeling is telling me that I'm fooling myself to even have the slightest bit of hope of ever hearing from her again, let alone a possible reconciliation. It feels like I've lost her forever, and all because of the fact she's taking a few days off from work. I know it doesn't make much sense, I don't know the reason of her days off and nothing's really changed, but I'm really driving myself crazy right now. I was finally feeling a bit better the last few days but this really didn't help. Sorry for rambling but can someone please talk some common sense into me?

[once removed]

And apparently that was enough to get me into a fit of anxiety.

it will happen. i have some idea of how it goes. at the time, just seeing a new, even innocuous, profile picture would send me into an anxiety attack for up to 8 hours. i would ruminate about similar things, and i would ask for the same kind of reassurances.

and it can be a vicious cycle. the anxiety can fuel more thoughts that drive you to look again.

i know youre hesitant. after months of it, when these things would happen to me, passion flower would stop them cold. its not something you have to just live with.

for what its worth, and if it helps, id say its pretty likely that you will hear from her again. i dont say that for any particular reason other than you had a very long relationship and i suspect shes not happy about the way that it ended. it may not be on the timeline you would want it to happen. it may not be in the form you want it to happen. but the odds are pretty high, and her taking off from work wont have any bearing on that either way. remember, labor day is coming up.

[Ichi]

Thanks again once removed.

at the time, just seeing a new, even innocuous, profile picture would send me into an anxiety attack for up to 8 hours.

Very recognizable. It happened to me a few weeks ago. Accidently saw her new profile picture in my friends list and had the same reaction. She had colored her hair and was smiling in the picture, but it was a really forced, fake smile. And her eyes were dead, not happy but very sad.

for what its worth, and if it helps, id say its pretty likely that you will hear from her again. i dont say that for any particular reason other than you had a very long relationship and i suspect shes not happy about the way that it ended. it may not be on the timeline you would want it to happen. it may not be in the form you want it to happen. but the odds are pretty high, and her taking off from work wont have any bearing on that either way. remember, labor day is coming up.

I hope you're right, but to be honest I highly doubt it. Her relationship with her previous ex before me lasted 9 years and she never contacted him again. She discarded him a few weeks before their wedding to be with me. And how strange it may sound, it wasn't even a 'bad' breakup, he took it with grace and even shook my hand when I met him while moving her stuff. But even then, no contact from him or her whatsoever.

Although her relationship with me as far as I know was far more intense than theirs, in both the positive and negative way. According to her they had no common interests, we had many, they never went on trips or had fun, we did all the time, they never really talked, we did a lot, they were living more like brother and sister. However, according to her we had more arguments and disagreements than she had with her ex, or as she kept saying "I'm not used to arguing, because me and my ex never talked". So I don't know whether the fact our bond was much closer and our relationship more intense makes the chance of her reaching out to me any more probable, or maybe just the opposite.

You say "and i suspect shes not happy about the way that it ended", what exactly do you mean by that?

Oh, and I'm not from the US so no Labor Day for us unfortunately...  

[once removed]

You say "and i suspect shes not happy about the way that it ended", what exactly do you mean by that?

i suspect that at the very least, shes a bit self conscious about lining up another relationship.

people, especially after a lengthy relationship, like to feel good about how it ended. people with bpd traits are no exception, and in fact, theres often a selfish component of wanting to know that youre okay with them, that you dont hate them.

all of that is easy to ignore right now. it doesnt mean it isnt there on some level.

[Ichi]

Thanks once removed. I know maybe I keep rehashing myself sometimes, but I really appreciate all the support I get and I'm working really hard to deal with things and the advice I get. It's just that I don't have much of a support system and at the moment this forum helps me to get through.

I think what also makes it more difficult for me to accept and judge the situation and if or how I should or should not act, is a couple of things:

1) Her level of awareness. I mean if she was full-blown BPD and I was certain I was hardcore split and devaluated it probably would make it 'easier' to 'accept' there was nothing I could do. However, while she checked all of the BPD boxes, on the BPD scale her behavior was pretty mild compared to a lot of stories I read on this forum. She was a quiet waif type and never showed anger or was really mean or vindictive. She showed it in more subtle, manipulative ways though, which doesn't mean it made it easier to deal with it.

Like I said before, in hindsight I see she also showed some awareness. While I'm still not sure she was aware of her BPD, I know there were times she tried to regulate her emotions and she even told me she was doing it. Probably learned during the 10 years of therapy she had in the past. Also during and after the discard, she wasn't mean or hateful to me at all. I mean she hurt me obviously, and also said some things that were hurtful to hear, but I don't think she said it with the purpose to hurt me. She also told me she was sorry, that she didn't want to hurt me, was worried about me, and texted me she hoped I was doing well. Of course I don't know to what level she actually meant it or whether it was to clear her conscience.

2) Also, I'm really wondering how much she's actually 'into' her replacement. When I asked her during the discard if there was someone else, she literally said "No, there's no... Well, there's someone I like... Well, really like... I think I'm in love actually... He LOVES me" All in a split second, like she tried to convince herself. And to me it sounded like "I think I'm in love because he loves me". Made no sense to me.

3) Then there's the fact that she's extremely avoidant and non-confrontational. Even if she would have regrets or doubts and would like contact or to reconcile, I don't think she's the person to take the first step, due to fear, guilt and shame. She cut off contact with her parents once and it took me almost a year to convince her to contact them.

So what I'm actually trying to say is, her level of awareness and her being on the 'mild' side of the BPD spectrum, her avoidant personality, and the fact I'm not too sure she's really into her replacement make me wonder if it's really the best 'strategy' to not contact her, leave her be and let her new relationship play itself out.

Let's say she does have regrets, wants contact or to reconcile, but is just too afraid or ashamed to reach out, or maybe thinks I'm angry or don't want to talk to her or moved on. And I won't reach out either, because of the reasons and advice you and others gave me and are very valid too, then nothing will ever happen or change.

I don't want to give the impression I'm trying to fool myself or making excuses to contact her. I'm just trying to assess the situation as realistically and honestly as possible all factors considered. So I can feel sure and confident about my decision what to do or not to do, because apparently I'm not totally convinced yet.

[once removed]

what would you do or say?

what outcome would you hope for?

[Ichi]

I don't know once removed, maybe I AM grasping at straws. I guess I just don't want to regret any action or inaction and still not sure what's the right 'strategy' in her case. And that insecurity makes me feel powerless. I guess if I can convince myself of the right action, whether it's contacting or not contacting it gives me some 'peace' and confidence I'm doing the right thing.

Don't know exactly what I would do or say, several things crossed my mind, maybe writing her a letter, just asking how she is doing and where I am at now, some soul searching I did and things I'm improving with myself. As casual as possible and not too heavy, without any pressure or expectations.

Or maybe just a simple text asking how she's doing, just to open the door so she knows I'm not angry and I'm willing to talk to her if she feels like it. Just to plant a seed to make her think of me.

The outcome I hope for, that's a good question. I guess, like I said to open the door, make her think of me again and in a different way, that I'm improving things, let her know I'm still there and haven't abandoned her. Hopefully get some kind of contact going, without pressure or expectations, and see where it goes from there. I know a reconciliation is not realistic anytime soon as we both have things to work on, and that's beside the question whether she's willing to work on herself anyway.

I guess my BEST case scenario would be:
We're both willing to reconcile, keep living apart for the time being, take things very slowly, we both seriously work on ourselves with therapy, we work on our communication together and to properly handle her BPD issues, and see where it goes from there and whether we're able to rebuild trust and a 'stable' basis for a relationship.

[once removed]

I guess if I can convince myself of the right action, whether it's contacting or not contacting it gives me some 'peace' and confidence I'm doing the right thing.

thats understandable. play everything out. it can help.

Or maybe just a simple text asking how she's doing, just to open the door

of all the options you present, this is probably the safest. youre on reasonable terms, and its harmless.

realistic

realistic expectations are important here.

at the end of the day, she is in a three month relationship. that would be preoccupying a great deal of anyones time and energy. it doesnt leave room for an ex, or, really, much of anyone. even in the event that it did, that wouldnt necessarily portend well for you.

opening a door would be one thing. i wouldnt expect anything more to come of it, and i would go into such a thing emotionally prepared for her not to respond to it.

[Ichi]

Feeling so awfully bad and desperate right now. Don't know what to do anymore, can't even think straight. I'm working so hard to deal with this situation, keeping myself busy and focusing on other things, yet she and this whole situation keeps occupying my mind 24/7, even in my dreams. I'm so exhausted of thinking and feeling. And I'm feeling so damn powerless. I know I can't change her or the breakup, but I'm not able to accept it, still hoping someday we will be together again. I miss her terribly and the good times we had, I feel guilty about things I said or did wrong. I'm fighting it, but it doesn't work. I'm lonely and don't really have much of a support system. The world and everything goes on around me and it feels like I'm standing still. I feel like a loser, I feel like nothing can help me, I'm crying, I'm desperate. I feel worthless, used and dumped like trash and forgotten. I don't deserve this, I did EVERYTHING for her and gave MY ALL to her and the relationship. She moved on like I never even existed, like our 5 year relationship meant NOTHING. I'm trying SO hard, but I know that whatever I do, no matter how hard I try, whatever anyone says or does, no matter how much I hope or wish or work on myself, it doesn't change the fact that I lost her and it won't bring her back...

[Goosey]

Yes I understand. Yes the way you are feeling is understandable. Yes is absolutely excruciating. And yes it’s your brain at work going through the stages of grief. And yes you will come out the other side. A bit dinged, a bit different, you will come out the other side. One day you will wake up singing a ditty not even knowing why. I only say this all because I feel ya, the pain is real 
  Just know it’s natural. We have all felt it. Just breathe. Reach out to a therapist or a hot line or clergy, a neighbor, a friend.
  You have suffered a great loss. You are grieving.  We hear you and understand. One day at a time.

[Goosey]

The stages of grief.
They are so hard.
They don’t behave, they switch places, they come back, hey I did that one what the H—l!
 It is the hardest thing I ever dealt with. Your in the clutches of it. I assure you it gets easier. No easy answers at this juncture. Just be assured time does heal.  I know that sound trite.
  Hang in there.

[Ichi]

Thanks so much Goosey...

[Cromwell]

id say is its as important to try to discover certain foods, medications and drugs that can aggravate mood and/or anxiety levels. No point in taking a potent herbal tea to guide to sleep if at the same time drinking energy juice throughout the day. Again this is another example of benefits to be gained by focusing on oneselfs needs rather than the others unreasonable demands and behaviours.

[Ichi]

Thanks Cromwell

[Ichi]

dont make a game of it, or be too showy, but its an attractive thing to be living your best life, and psychologically probably more effective than anything else you could say or do at the moment. you might consider posting in that light.

psychologically speaking, when a person breaks up with someone, and then observes them, there is a tendency to notice changes, even to read a lot into them.

the basic psychology behind it. you stay on her radar, you pique her curiosity, you look like the confident, upbeat guy she fell for in the first place. thats what youre going for.

On the concept of using social media to get her thinking about you, stay on her radar and pique her interest I was thinking the following. As I understand a pwBPD is mainly attracted to you for meeting their own needs and not because of you as a person. Why would it have any effect, psychologically speaking, if my ex would see on my social media I'm doing well, living my best life and picked up my hobbies/interest again. I mean, it never was about ME in the first place, it was all about THEM and THEIR needs.

With a healthy person I would understand that it's an attractive thing, but she was never really interested in MY life or interests, so why would she be now. I assume the reason why pwDBP discard someone is because they're not 'useful' anymore and because their needs aren't met anymore. So how would showing her I'm living my best life make her think differently her about me and think I will be able to meet her needs.

[Ichi]

Another thing, during our relationship a lot of times my ex gave me the feeling that she thought she wasn't good enough for me, couldn't make me happy, didn't deserve me and even wondered if I would be more happy on my own. I'm pretty sure she convinced herself of this and also thought that I would rather be on my own, which I always assured her wasn't the case.

But let's say she has convinced herself she didn't make me happy and I would rather be on my own and because of that did the right thing in ending the relationship. Wouldn't that in her mind give her a a justified reason not to reach out, because it's better this way? Wouldn't the fact I haven't contacted her in 3 months confirm in her mind that it's because I AM happier without her and fine with the breakup? Wouldn't me posting on social media I'm living my best life and doing things and picking up interests/hobbies I neglected the past years actually confirm for her I'm doing better and being happier without her. And could this actually have the opposite effect I'm hoping for and rather prevent her from reaching out, because in her mind it confirms she did the right by ending it because she thinks I'm doing better without her?

[Cromwell]

What if she's too afraid to reach out?

Emotional intimacy requires an act of courage on both sides, it cannot work otherwise,you are just hanging around with a person.

Afraid to reach out has a consequence for me, its called, 'too bad" you failed to be intimate i will find someone who will.

Where else does it lead, afraid to be open and honest? "sorry i lied but I was afraid of you finding the truth'

"sorry you only knew a fake persona and even into marriage and kids, i was afraid if i was genuine id be rejected so put on an act.

[Ichi]

Thanks Cromwell. Anyone have an opinion/advice on my last two posts on social media usage and 'thinks she doesn't make me happy'? I'm really curious for options.

[once removed]

As I understand a pwBPD is mainly attracted to you for...

be careful about what you read. when it comes to personality disorders on the internet, misinformation, urban legends, and myths, abound.

separating from your hurt and anger for a moment, does any of that sound like the person you were with for five years? if so, do you want someone back who is only attracted to you for how you can meet her needs?

there are general truths about BPD; they are highly sensitive people. they are needy people. they over emote, etc.

apart from that, they are just like you and me, just more extreme. the problems in your relationship, and the circumstances you face now are best understood in the unique context of your relationship. bpd is just one facet of that.

On the concept of using social media to get her thinking about you

i want to reiterate that posting on social media is almost certainly not a way to get her back, or to achieve anything particularly substantial.

when you are trying to reverse a breakup, you can only play the cards you have, and you want to play your best ones. putting yourself out in your most attractive light is your best card, but so long as shes in a relationship, what that looks like is somewhat limited.

Another thing, during our relationship a lot of times my ex gave me the feeling that she thought she wasn't good enough for me, couldn't make me happy, didn't deserve me and even wondered if I would be more happy on my own.

this is very common to "bpd thinking". people with bpd traits inherently have low self esteem and feel unworthy.

But let's say she has convinced herself she didn't make me happy

if shes done, shes done, and throwing a hail mary after three months wont change that. again, its about playing the best cards you have, with a limited deck.

but its important to remember, its very unlikely that shes operating in this headspace, or giving these sorts of things that much thought. thats not to say she doesnt notice, or that she doesnt think of you. its to say its very easy, when youre in it, to put too much stock in this or that, because youre hypervigilant, because youre dealing with it day to day, and because theres a tendency to evaluate each move or interaction. its what is called ruminating. learn to recognize it. combat it mindfulness and reality testing. its just the minds way of dealing with anxiety, and it tends to have little to no bearing on the reality of the circumstances.

[Ichi]

Thanks, I realize some things I wrote were oversimplified and without nuance and that's not fair. I know it's not that simple, guess I just wanted my point to be too clear and couldn't find the right way to express it.

Also, it's not that I'm ruminating about this actually. Of course I was wondering about this, but they were meant more as hypothetical questions and was curious about opinions on such situations as an opportunity to learn about BPD behavior and maybe also could relate it to my situation. Again, since English is not my native language I can't always find the right way or words to make myself clear.

[Ichi]

be careful about what you read. when it comes to personality disorders on the internet, misinformation, urban legends, and myths, abound.

there are general truths about BPD; they are highly sensitive people. they are needy people. they over emote, etc.

apart from that, they are just like you and me, just more extreme. the problems in your relationship, and the circumstances you face now are best understood in the unique context of your relationship. bpd is just one facet of that.

I see where you're coming from and I really appreciate your help, however I can't shake the feeling that it's kinda downplaying the role of her BPD in our relationship and the breakup. I mean I think we all agree it's a serious mental illness and not a case of just being oversensitive, needy, over emotional. All the info, tools and stories on this forum illustrate this and prove this fact. I totally agree that not every problem in the relationship can be solely blamed on her BPD, I'm fully aware of that. But reading your words I have to admit that it made me feel even more guilty and regretful, though I know it wasn't your intention.

It made me again doubt whether the role of her BPD maybe wasn't such a large factor in the breakup and it was actually me that played a large part in it. I know I talked about that before and I know that anxiety, depression and ruminating can aggrevate these feelings, but there's a good reason I keep bringing it up. Like I said before, I had my own issues, especially during the last year of our relationship. I wasn't happy, stressed out, frustrated, emotionally worn out, easily irritated, had some fits of anger and also said some things I'm sure triggered her fear of abandonment, engulfment and made her feel like she couldn't make me happy, felt unheard, not understood, unwanted.

Some of this was caused by issues between her and me and her behaviour, but I realize some of it was also caused by my unhappiness about where I was standing in my own life and where it was heading combined with external factors, and that didn't really have anything to do with her personally or our relationship. Again, the reason why I keep bringing it up is because I feel there's a valid reason I partly contributed to the end of our relationship. Not the sole reason of course, but surely valid.

And that's why I can't really let go of the feelings of guilt and regret. I know I can't change the past, I know I wasn't aware of her BPD at the time and I know I did my utmost best dealing with her issues and my own issues. I also realize that she made her decision to end it and that I can't really change that, but it really hurts that her decision was probably partly based on me expressing my feelings and unhappiness that not always had to do with her or our relationship but my own issues. But I'm sure they were misunderstood by her and made her feel unhappy and unwanted and that I wasn't happy with her or our relationship.

Believe me, I know that I can't do much about that now and I really don't want to keep rehashing the same things, but I just deeply regret the things I said and did that I'm sure were misinterpreted by her like I wasn't happy with her and our relationship and therefore contributed to the breakup. And I just feel really helpless and powerless that I have no way of letting her know that wasn't the case, and that I'm terribly sorry I made her feel that way. And now it's too late as telling her now is not a smart move since she is in a new relationship. I just don't know how to deal with these feelings of guilt and regret and it's really eating at me...

[Goosey]

Been there. 
   On of the things I finally realized is that I don’t know how she feels, what she thinks.  Its part of the process.

[Goosey]

The few times I tried to convey how I felt to her I got totally a different response then what I hoped for. It’s self flagellation. I learned it’s better to just suffer through it while occasionally sharing with close friends and or family. No easy answer I can give you.      Don’t worry about rehashing here. I’ve done it for years.

[once removed]

this board explores how to reverse a breakup and how to improve your relationship should you reconcile.

part of that - a significant part of it - involves a deep dive into the role we played in the relationships demise, and how we are going to drive the change going forward, if possible. that is where the tools come in.

its not an emotionally easy exercise by any means. it took me years after the fact to get to that point.

if you dont want to do that, or if you arent ready to do that, and would prefer to move to another board for now, we can do that. just let me know.

[Ichi]

I'm wondering what makes you think I don't want to do that? The fact that I'm talking about my part in the relationship's demise means I'm doing just that, deep diving and being honest with myself. So I can learn ways to change things. Also I've been studying the tools on this website.

The deep diving does however evoke feelings of guilt and regret, which is only logical I think. However, I know I have to try not to drown in those feelings and try to approach it in a more constructive way. I guess I just shouldn't post during moments I feel too much panic and anxiety...

[Ichi]

Sorry once removed, I now see what you mean. What I wrote about the downplaying was mostly based on misinterpretation and the anxious mood I was in when I wrote it...

[once removed]

The deep diving does however evoke feelings of guilt and regret

i understand that. it did for me as well.

in my case, i had emotionally neglected and abandoned my relationship. when it ended, people close to me gently, very gently, suggested to me that in light of that it really wasnt that big a surprise that my ex lined up and jumped into another relationship. at the time, hearing that would send me into a tailspin for hours on end, where id then beg others around me for reassurance that there was nothing i could have done.

im not directly comparing or suggesting thats what happened to you, by the way. im saying that i understand the pain is kind of like third degree burns. it can be difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between "room for improvement" and "its all my fault". thats especially true when it comes to depression.

I guess I just shouldn't post during moments I feel too much panic and anxiety...

you can, and ought to. but every board is going to give you a different kind of support; it really depends on what kind of support youre looking for right now, and that can/may change.

[Ichi]

Well, what I desperately have been trying to prevent the last 3 months has unfortunately just happened. I saw a photo of my ex with her replacement looking totally happy and in love. I haven't looked on her social media once since the discard 3 months ago to prevent this from happening. However, since I still have her on Whatsapp I saw in my friends list she had changed her profile picture (small} and there were 2 people on it. So I clicked on it and there they were, looking all happy and in love, and it immediately threw me into a huge panic attack.

Damn, just when I was feeling a bit better the last few days. NEVER in the 5 years we were together has she ever put a photo of us two together as her profile picture on any social media or WhatsApp, ALWAYS a photo of only herself, while we had MANY 'in love' photos of us together. This is SO not her and out of character for her. And I'm really wondering whether she did this to hurt me or get a reaction out of me. She probably assumes I'm not watching her social media and knows using WhatsApp is the only way to show me this photo.

I know I shouldn't read into things too much but I really think she's annoyed I have been in NC since the discard 3 months ago and expected me to chase her and contact her. Also I've been posting on social media about living my life and being happy (not showy) so I wonder whether she did this as a way to get a reaction out of me cause she knows I will see the photo.

I SO wish I hadn't seen this photo, it really hurts me and I feel like I went back a few squares in my progress. I feel hurt, sad, angry and even repulsed seeing them together, seemingly still happy and in love after 3 months. While I've been reading and posting on this forum still having hope for a possible reconciliation in the future. I now feel like ALL hope for a reconciliation is lost and they will live happily ever after and even wonder if it WAS actually all my fault.

[once removed]

i dont know what to say apart from that i have some idea of what seeing that kind of thing is like. it sucks. it hurts. im sorry you had to see it.

you will feel better soon. the initial pang of the blow will fade over the next few days.

the honest truth is that there is no competing with the new relationship. reconciliation, any time soon, and based on their relationship crashing and burning, is probably not realistic. in that regard it is best to let go of hope; it will torture you.

youre playing a much longer game here, if thats what you want to do, with no guarantees.