How do you get through?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I'm sure a lot of you have faced this exact same situation, and I have no idea how to handle it. I'm curious as to how some of you have successfully done it.

As is the case in many of the former relationships on here, my ex is inventing allegations against me that have zero truth to them, and also denying that she said/did things that she knows are true. From my experience, the vast majority of family law professionals assume that every case is similar in that part of each side's story is true, so you never know who to really believe, and both sides should just meet in the middle. As you all know, that may be true in 99% of the cases, but not in ours.

When someone fabricates something against you, how do you prove you didn't say or do that?

And how do you get through to the judge, custody evaluator, etc that there aren't two sides to these stories? For example, if you and I have a conversation at the grocery store about the produce selection, and then I run outside and start screaming out loud that you just threatened to kill me, I'm either making that up or I'm so distorted that I truly believe it happened. There aren't "two sides to the story" - what I'm saying has no merit. No one in their right mind would expect you to take a plea deal to a lesser charge just to meet me in the middle. How do you convince family law professionals that that's what's happening? 

[alleyesonme]

I'm sure a lot of you have faced this exact same situation, and I have no idea how to handle it. I'm curious as to how some of you have successfully done it.

As is the case in many of the former relationships on here, my ex is inventing allegations against me that have zero truth to them, and also denying that she said/did things that she knows are true. From my experience, the vast majority of family law professionals assume that every case is similar in that part of each side's story is true, so you never know who to really believe, and both sides should just meet in the middle. As you all know, that may be true in 99% of the cases, but not in ours.

When someone fabricates something against you, how do you prove you didn't say or do that?

And how do you get through to the judge, custody evaluator, etc that there aren't two sides to these stories? For example, if you and I have a conversation at the grocery store about the produce selection, and then I run outside and start screaming out loud that you just threatened to kill me, I'm either making that up or I'm so distorted that I truly believe it happened. There aren't "two sides to the story" - what I'm saying has no merit. No one in their right mind would expect you to take a plea deal to a lesser charge just to meet me in the middle. How do you convince family law professionals that that's what's happening? 

[ForeverDad]

You're right, without independent documentation it's difficult to prove something didn't happen or wasn't said.  After our separation my then-spouse made many allegations, I stopped counting the ones I knew about once I ran out of fingers.  I recall one time CPS called me and told me they had just closed a case.  I asked what it was about and the lady refused to tell me.  To this day I still don't know.

There are 3 outcomes that I'm aware of.  If you're the accused:

• Substantiated ... you don't want that.
• Unsubstantiated ... this is the usual result where the case is dropped and (surprise) the accuser seldom faces consequences, even after multiple failed attempts.
• Unfounded ... subdued court-speak for 'liar'.  You'll seldom get this one, I never did.

And if you report abuse or threats, you do risk similar outcomes above.  What tips the scales?  Documentation.  But that's hard to get for a variety of reasons.  First, the poor behaviors such as threats, violence and suicide comments generally are made only in private scenarios... so no witnesses.  Second, the incidents aren't easily predictable, they often arise all of a sudden.  Some here decided to have a record app on their phone.  Or using the video recording app.  My conflicts were before the smart phone era, so I bought voice recorders.  Still, I missed recording many incidents.

[GaGrl]

A journal, in addition to recordings, can help. Listing activities each day, things the child says, references to emails or texts from Ex, etc. might seem boring on the surface, but that's what you want -- to show your routine and life with your child. The contrast to a false accusation then stands out more as an anomaly. Make sense.

[ForeverDad]

A journal, diary or calendar gives you the ability to log the details afterward.  Vague claims such as "he always..." or "she always..." mean little to the legal world.  While it may be heard, it will typically be too vague and very likely to be set aside as unsupported hearsay.

My court never seemed to be interested in my side of the story.  And especially it was not interested for me, a non-professional and an involved party, to "Play Doctor" (like kids playing doctor) explaining why she was doing what she did.  And the professionals never once made a diagnosis, not in 8 years in and out of family court.

Relatively few family law attorneys will identify BPD, NPD or other acting-out Personality Disorders.  Even psychologists and therapists are hesitant to do that, especially if they haven't personally assessed the person.

I recall my divorce lawyer estimated my divorce at 7-9 months.  Toward the end  (it became 23.5 months!) he exclaimed she was bats*** crazy and once exclaimed she was a sociopath who could lie successfully with a lie detector.  Even so, he never once voiced my suspicions she was undiagnosed BPD.  Post-divorce, even our Guardian ad Litem (GAL, son's lawyer) described many of her poor behaviors but never once mentioned a specific diagnostic possibility.  And the magistrate also was vague on the matter, stating in the decision (our last time in court) that ex needed counseling but not requiring it.

During my divorce hearings we didn't do much testimony at all.  However post-divorce was different.  Our last hearing/trial was in late 2013.  During that hearing I 'refreshed' my memory with details from my log, a weekly calendar book, and I was able to give dates, times, places, and other details.  Her lawyer never asked for it to be shared or browsed with my ex or the court, my lawyer assured me that my journals remained private.

Courts usually focus attention on only the 6 months prior to the beginning of the court case.  Anything older is largely ignored as "stale" unless... you are documenting a pattern of poor behaviors.  So you can do both.

Good that you are documenting details, courts largely ignore vague claims such as "he always..." or "she always..."  Your log or diary is private, you don't have to share it with her or others.  However, if you are testifying and need to refer to it to refresh your memory, that's okay, no one can demand to search it.

I'm not saying the professionals won't voice opinions or any diagnosis, just realize that most of us never got a diagnosis.  Court doesn't try to fix either parent, though it typically does set behavioral limits / boundaries in the court orders.

[kells76]

Hey alleyesonme,

my ex is inventing allegations against me that have zero truth to them, and also denying that she said/did things that she knows are true.

Is she doing this verbally? Written? Other? To whom?

[CoherentMoose]

Alleyesonme,

It's difficult dealing with someone who is willing to lie.  As noted, documentation is key, along with accepting what they are.  Play the long game with setting up chess pieces for victory (what does that look like?) while collecting data for use in court if it becomes necessary.  ForeverDad's story is a great one to go research on how he persevered through patience and consistent documentation.  The hard part is to keep others out of the middle. And radical acceptance is...well...difficult.  My GF rails about wanting to get the truth out but in reality, defending herself is usually not productive. 

Are there any particular areas of the "lying" you are concerned about?  CoMo

[mstnghu]

I'm dealing with the same sort of scenario with my ex. She makes stuff up or exaggerates situations constantly to make me look bad.  I've been documenting for years any type of significant interactions that happen between us. Anything that I consider major dysregulation or just irrational behavior on her part gets typed up in a computer document that I have saved away from her access.
Also, I've recently started recording phone calls as well. Because she wants to track my phone calls and texts, she had refused to let me off our joint phone plan of which she's the head account holder. I let her know that I'd be getting my own phone and new phone plan if she didn't and I finally went ahead and did that. I've been using my new phone to record phone calls I have with her on the other phone. I've recorded all sorts of toxic and crazy-making behavior from her. Unfortunately, since I'm not disclosing to her that I'm recording, I can't actually use the recordings in court unless there was some sort of safety-related or abusive type of situation going on. I live in CA so that's how the law regarding recordings works here- not sure about how it works in other states. I mainly record for my own peace of mind and to remind myself that I'm not the crazy one. I've gotten quite a few "interesting" recordings of her acting completely irrational and unreasonable and completely distorting the truth.

[alleyesonme]

Thank you all for your help and support.

Regarding the idea of documenting everything, I've been doing that for a long time. Everything I've said about my ex has some sort of documented proof or, at the very least, extensive details that I can explain and describe. On the other hand, nothing she has said about me has any documentation, she frequently uses phrases like "he always" or "he never," which we have easily disproved during testimony under oath, and there are massive and obvious inconsistencies in her claims about me. However, despite all of this, she has still been able to hook the evaluator in our case such that her side is being accepted as true and my side is being ignored despite the actual documentation. That's part of what has made this all so unjust and infuriating - it's as if the actual facts don't matter and none of the rules apply to her.

[alleyesonme]

The lying she has done has been both under oath and in private meetings with our custody evaluator. She actually kidnapped our D and prevented me from seeing her for a long period at the very beginning of this process, and she's now justifying doing so because she claims I told her during the marriage that I was planning to do the same thing to her. As I'm sure you can all guess, there's zero truth to that.

She's also claiming that I was abusive with her, yet has admitted under oath that I was never physical with her and rarely ever even raised my voice. I never even came close to any sort of abuse of her.

She's also saying on one hand that she's fine with me having equal time with our D, yet on the other hand making allegations that I've behaved inappropriately with our D. Once again, there's zero truth to that, and you'd think a trained professional would realize that if my ex were genuinely concerned about any inappropriate behavior, she wouldn't be okay with me having equal time with our D. But instead, she's somehow hooked our custody evaluator and turned her against me.

[alleyesonme]

We've also got posts on Instagram and Twitter from during the marriage where she talks about how great of a person I am, how great of a dad I am, and how great of a husband I am, yet now she claims I was horrible at all three. Again, I don't get how the inconsistency here hasn't significantly hurt her case.

[GaGrl]

What is your lawyer's strategy to confront these false allegations?

[alleyesonme]

What is your lawyer's strategy to confront these false allegations?

All he's told me is that he's confident that we can undermine her at trial. The issue is that these false allegations have had enough staying power to hook the custody evaluator and force us to go to trial in the first place. Any other tips you or others have are more than welcome.

[GaGrl]

All he's told me is that he's confident that we can undermine her at trial. The issue is that these false allegations have had enough staying power to hook the custody evaluator and force us to go to trial in the first place. Any other tips you or others have are more than welcome.

If you are going to trial, the custody evaluator will need to testify. Your lawyer can press the CE on how he/she verified any allegations. If there was little to no verification, that will come out, and the CE won't look good.

You might want to press your lawyer on how he/she plans to handle the CE, since that appears to be a weak link.

[ForeverDad]

In the decades past a general perception was that mothers were the default better parent ("Tender Years" Doctrine) but then fathers weren't recognized

It is less so these days but in many areas fathers still face an uphill struggle to overcome such assumptions.  How experienced is your lawyer with actual trials, testimony and legal strategies?  Most divorces and custody struggles settle before reaching the point of court trials, so some lawyers may depend overmuch on settlements and have less experience at trials.

The same goes with GALs and Custody Evaluators... do they have unwritten or unspoken presumptions that mothers get default preference and fathers can't prove they're the better ( or "less bad") parent?

[alleyesonme]

If you are going to trial, the custody evaluator will need to testify. Your lawyer can press the CE on how he/she verified any allegations. If there was little to no verification, that will come out, and the CE won't look good.

You might want to press your lawyer on how he/she plans to handle the CE, since that appears to be a weak link.

Yes, this is probably what our case will hinge on - how we handle the CE at trial. I know my L's strategy is currently being developed as we speak.

[alleyesonme]

In the decades past a general perception was that mothers were the default better parent ("Tender Years" Doctrine) but then fathers weren't recognized

It is less so these days but in many areas fathers still face an uphill struggle to overcome such assumptions.  How experienced is your lawyer with actual trials, testimony and legal strategies?  Most divorces and custody struggles settle before reaching the point of court trials, so some lawyers may depend overmuch on settlements and have less experience at trials.

The same goes with GALs and Custody Evaluators... do they have unwritten or unspoken presumptions that mothers get default preference and fathers can't prove they're the better ( or "less bad") parent?

Lots of great questions here. My L is experienced at trial. My concern is that the CE seems to think that the worst a mother can get is equal time no matter what she does, while the best a father can get is equal time no matter what he does. It seems like that's how the judge works in our county as well. It's as if we're held to two completely different sets of rules. I can't believe this still happens in 2021.

[GaGrl]

This is why you keep in mind that each court appearance is a step in the progession. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Yes, it will, in the end, cost more. Unless your ex is so egregious that Court sees the children need to be with you, the most stable parent, you will need your ex to establish this by her own behavior.

Your children are worth it.

[ForeverDad]

Many of our divorce or custody cases result in a settlement.  Not quickly and not easily.  Our spouses are typically too entitled to be reasonable and actually negotiate.

As an example, my divorce ended with a fizzle and a settlement.  (However my lawyer had to prepare for every hearing and then the trial, then my ex surprised us on Trial Morning saying she would settle.)  My ex had obstructed all the way and it was a two year separation/divorce.  No wonder, she had two very favorable temp orders where she had temp custody and temp majority time.  For whatever reason, judges and lawyers don't try to fix bad temp orders.  (Why should they, temp orders are only "temporary", aren't they?  Who cares if it lasts for two years? )

It appears judges hate making decisions and rulings.  They let the process yammer on and if there is an eventual settlement, then they all proclaim, "See? It works!"  That's how our sort of court cases take so long...

[BigOof]

Regarding strategy, considered going with the "false allegations are parental alienation." Why? Read the paper "Child Custody Outcomes in Cases Involving Parental Alienation and Abuse Allegations."

[yeeter]

Many of our divorce or custody cases result in a settlement.  Not quickly and not easily.  Our spouses are typically too entitled to be reasonable and actually negotiate.

As an example, my divorce ended with a fizzle and a settlement.  (However my lawyer had to prepare for every hearing and then the trial, then my ex surprised us on Trial Morning saying she would settle.)  My ex had obstructed all the way and it was a two year separation/divorce.  No wonder, she had two very favorable temp orders where she had temp custody and temp majority time.  For whatever reason, judges and lawyers don't try to fix bad temp orders.  (Why should they, temp orders are only "temporary", aren't they?  Who cares if it lasts for two years? )

It appears judges hate making decisions and rulings.  They let the process yammer on and if there is an eventual settlement, then they all proclaim, "See? It works!"  That's how our sort of court cases take so long...

I believe this is 99.9% of the process.  And it is not just the judge, the LAWYERS from both sides have a professional obligation to attempt to settle, and to avoid 'wasting' the courts time that could be used on more severe cases (ie physical abuse, drug users, etc... NOT mental health cases).

In my case it dragged out 2 years and 'settled' primarily via the lawyers ramming it down both sides throats.  Morning of trial.

So my takeaway is do not allow your lawyer to attempt the 'easy way'.  Dont accept delays and continuances to continue to try and mediate and work things out.  Force it through the process as quickly as possible, and do not be afraid of trial at all.  In fact, tell your lawyer you WANT to go to trial (a decent lawyer wont like that) - else it will just drag out for no good reason to attempt a solution that isnt possible.

It is not possible to reason with an unreasonable person.  Accept that up front and run a process with this underlying assumption.

I used to feel differently, but learned the hard way.

[alleyesonme]

This is why you keep in mind that each court appearance is a step in the progession. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Yes, it will, in the end, cost more. Unless your ex is so egregious that Court sees the children need to be with you, the most stable parent, you will need your ex to establish this by her own behavior.

Your children are worth it.

Thank you for your support. You're 100% right, and our D has been my inspiration this entire time.

[alleyesonme]

Many of our divorce or custody cases result in a settlement.  Not quickly and not easily.  Our spouses are typically too entitled to be reasonable and actually negotiate.

As an example, my divorce ended with a fizzle and a settlement.  (However my lawyer had to prepare for every hearing and then the trial, then my ex surprised us on Trial Morning saying she would settle.)  My ex had obstructed all the way and it was a two year separation/divorce.  No wonder, she had two very favorable temp orders where she had temp custody and temp majority time.  For whatever reason, judges and lawyers don't try to fix bad temp orders.  (Why should they, temp orders are only "temporary", aren't they?  Who cares if it lasts for two years? )

It appears judges hate making decisions and rulings.  They let the process yammer on and if there is an eventual settlement, then they all proclaim, "See? It works!"  That's how our sort of court cases take so long...

You hit the nail on the head. It's as if the judge is genuinely offended if you have the audacity to take a case to trial and he has to do his job. Then if it somehow settles before then, the court feels justified and as if everything they did worked. What a sad system.

[alleyesonme]

Regarding strategy, considered going with the "false allegations are parental alienation." Why? Read the paper "Child Custody Outcomes in Cases Involving Parental Alienation and Abuse Allegations."

Thank you for sharing that!

[alleyesonme]

I believe this is 99.9% of the process.  And it is not just the judge, the LAWYERS from both sides have a professional obligation to attempt to settle, and to avoid 'wasting' the courts time that could be used on more severe cases (ie physical abuse, drug users, etc... NOT mental health cases).

In my case it dragged out 2 years and 'settled' primarily via the lawyers ramming it down both sides throats.  Morning of trial.

So my takeaway is do not allow your lawyer to attempt the 'easy way'.  Dont accept delays and continuances to continue to try and mediate and work things out.  Force it through the process as quickly as possible, and do not be afraid of trial at all.  In fact, tell your lawyer you WANT to go to trial (a decent lawyer wont like that) - else it will just drag out for no good reason to attempt a solution that isnt possible.

It is not possible to reason with an unreasonable person.  Accept that up front and run a process with this underlying assumption.

I used to feel differently, but learned the hard way.

Great insight and advice here. Your experience of it being impossible to reason with an unreasonable person hits the nail on the head, and it's a shame that family law professionals just don't understand this.