The less I do and the more I pull away, the better things get.-Part 1

[Leaf56]

So the latest. I had up until this point told my son that until he was no longer on our insurance (one more year) that I'd help him out with his mental health care. He just called saying once again that he's going to change etc. I said great. He said he wants to go to therapy, I said, "Great. Find a provider on the plan. I think the copay is $40 per session." He said, "What? You mean you won't pay? But I have no money! [he has several thousand dollars and the ability to get a job that makes $40/week] So I have to beg for you to pay for this?" I said, "We've already spent thousands of dollars on therapists etc. that you've quit just since February. I'm not doing it any more." I told him I don't think there's anything actually wrong with you and that you can decide to go back to behaving like you were raised to behave. He behaved perfectly between the ages of 10 and 22. He knows how to behave. I told him that if it feels like he's faking it and not genuine I said, too bad. That's how civilized people behave. I also told him to stop smoking pot and get a job. I just don't care anymore. I think some of my anger is possibly an offshoot of how I feel like my son could easily be Brian Laundrie and how much contempt I currently feel for that POS who killed that lovely girl. I am just SO sick of people acting like ******* toddlers when we all know they know better. Why are we as a society letting these adult toddlers continue to behave like this? They should all be chucked out on their collective a**** to fend for themselves. What a waste!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Eljefe]

I came upon this post randomly but it fits my opinion exactly. My SOs mom is BPD. Her father supports her 100% and denies she has any problem. He bails her out of every mess she spoils and excuses her abuse of her son and even physical attacks. He makes it completely possible for her to remain abusive and in denial. She's 62. He's 87. The entire family follows his lead. She will be left a lot of money when he dies or possibly a house. Meanwhile she's destroyed dozens of lives. I have made it clear she will not abuse me. She still attacks but will not dare another physical attack. I fail to understand why in what I've read you are told to take their abuse and validate. It's been validation for her since infancy. I've never met such an entitled and vicious person. The last thing she needs is validation. I can't call the cops on her or our landlady will evict me. She too wants to protect her and is going to sell her house rather than write a 30 day notice and walk 12 feet to paste it to her door. The manipulation and guilt is unbelievable and it's funded by Daddy.

[Leaf56]

Eljefe, Yes, I've known several children of moneyed families who end up behaving like this. It has made me wonder if BPD is a direct result of the melding of the genetic sensitivity that leads to BPD with privilege and indulgence. And just to be clear, I don't think a child would have to be from a wealthy family to end up like this. Children in lower socioeconomic status families can still be born with the necessary sensitivities and then be privileged and indulged within that family structure. It's just that with wealth comes ostentatious BPD. And just to reiterate, I still think the disposition to become BPD is genetic, I'm just speculating that it's probably helped along by indulging it and that is why all of these BPDs need to be cut off ASAP and forced by their families and society to both behave well and work for what they get. They learn far too early how to manipulate for what they get. Also, a side note, to suggest that we reflect on the fact that the in-patient programs available that are purported to be the "gold standards" for the treatment of BPD (McLean, etc.) cost anywhere from $30,000-$60,000 for 30 days. Gee, I wonder who can afford that? It's almost as if the psychological care community realized that there was a market to be exploited there, isn't it?

[Leaf56]

Just thought I'd give an update on how this approach is working out. Basically, it continues to bear fruit. The less I do and the more I pull away, the better things get. It continues to be extremely hard, and I often find myself feeling positively sick with anxiety over whether what I'm doing is the right thing, but so far positive things are continuing to happen so I remain cautiously optimistic. I'd love to hear updates from others who are trying this approach or have people who only read do some posting here. I often wonder about all the views logged on this post and who's behind them. I'd like to formally welcome anyone who has heretofore only read this thread to join in the discussion.

[M-T]

Once I really set some boundaries this past summer, I hear very little from my daughter. I think, since she can't get from me what she wants (money, a dumping ground for her emotions/anger, sympathy despite not taking meds/taking important steps to help herself), she's just not reaching out as much. She has also been working steadily (a great thing but not keeping my hopes up). This has been helpful for me mentally.

And it has also been hard because I'm not used to it. I still have moments where I feel I'm mourning a loss. Our conversations are very superficial because I don't really talk to her about anything too meaningful. She's not a safe person to really open up to. Asking her how she's doing is never a good idea, talking about anything that could remotely be related to money is off limits (we came to a mutual agreement on that). Also if I say anything remotely coming across as advice or trying to get an idea of if she's taking care of herself, she gets defensive. So she tells me her car is acting up and I ask her if she has had it looked at to know what the cost of fixing it might be. She says, "NO! It could be thousands of dollars and it's really not at the top of my mind." I think about and wonder about if this is what parents experience when their neurotypical children move out and become independent (I don't know bc my other kids are much younger). But it feels weird not to be able to or want to do "normal" things my mom did with me, like going shopping together, or grabbing lunch, or slipping her $20 here and there when she comes to visit.

She has flaked on hanging out with us several times in the past month. The excuse is usually related to her car or being tired or having a hard week. Again, it's always bittersweet. A relief because anticipation of hanging out with her is stressful and often actually being with her is stressful. Sadness because things aren't and can't be normal.

[Leaf56]

Hi M-T, thanks for updating. It sounds like there's real progress being made on her behavior. I also have many moments where I feel like I'm mourning my son's loss. It seems to manifest as constant anxiety. I've been a low-anxiety person my whole life but since this started I've had trouble sleeping and uncharacteristically gained weight.

You said: "Our conversations are very superficial because I don't really talk to her about anything too meaningful."

This is how both my mother and sister describe their conversations with each other. Both are troubled by it, but neither know how to change it. It's funny because I'm in the middle, and I can see how my mother's communication is irritating because she irritates me too, but not even close to the level of my sister. And I can clearly see how my mom gets it wrong, almost all the time, and has no idea what she's done. I've tried to tell her what she needs to do but she really can't understand and really doesn't want to change. So they'll remain this way. My sister just looks forward to her dying so she doesn't have to deal with the nagging guilt of having any further obligation toward her.

My neurotypical adult son is easy to talk to, and we just laugh about how I irritate him by behaving in the worrying way that moms have. I think about the difference. I see that it's about the ability to love/respect another person for real, the ability to feel empathy, the ability to put someone else above yourself because you love them more than you need to be right or righteous. My son is able to do that with me because he has matured. I am able to do that with my mom because I have matured. My sister can't do that with my mom because she's still locked in that toddler mentality. My BPD son is locked somewhere in between total enmeshment (on his side) with me and toddler tantrum separation stage. The more I pull away, the more he is able to mature. If he ultimately has to mature without me in his life, it may be as you say bittersweet, but at least he will have made the leap. As a parent, I want that way more than I want a relationship with him.

Also, I went and found this from a private mail I sent someone a while back. I thought I'd copy and paste it here. I thought it summed up my approach:

It's only been about 2 months since I started reading this message board, and my resolve and plan have accelerated by years. With every passing day, I've realized how ridiculous it all is and how I want no part of it, and that's how I continue down the path of not helping. I truly believe it's the only thing that can actually help them, and I no longer care that much if it means I'll never see him again because he's angry at me or if he eventually becomes homeless or if he kills himself. I mean obviously I care, but I now see that "caring" requires me to let go entirely—of everything. Of my hopes for him, of my love for him, of my tenderness for him, of the flashes of memory that enter my brain of him as a sweet baby and child that I no longer allow to play in my mind before I swiftly cut the film. And only people like us, who've had to live through any of this, can have ANY idea about it. Everyone else will probably condemn us. I suspect it might be a very lonely road and it will take an iron will, but I do think it's HIS (not just mine) only hope of a life worth living. It has to become a mindset, and the actions just sort of grow out of the changed mindset. And you will constantly doubt yourself, as I'm doing every day: "Am I doing too little? Am I doing too much?" It's a constant seesaw.

[karaokequeen]

Someone on here was asking who are all the lurkers on this post. I'm one. 

I didn't think it was appropriate for me to say anything in this thread since I'm not a parent at all, let alone a parent with a child who has BPD. I am, however, a sister, and I was lurking in this post because I have been hoping my parents would do what you all are doing.

I am also a sister-in-law (yes, my husband's brother has this too) and his parents have been doing what you all are doing, and it's mostly working. It seems really hard, but they are starting to enjoy life again, and are starting to recover from PTSD every time the phone buzzes.

I'm also reading this thread because it validates my own experience with my sister. I am the oldest child, so while definitely not a parent, I have felt some responsibility for my younger sister. Our brother, the youngest, hasn't spoken to her in years. He has young children and has simply decided the stakes are too high to entertain our sister's shenanigans.

And finally I am here because my sister's kids often rely on me to be a healthier mom figure and also they have to parent their own mom. Your all are sharing some enlightening things that I hope will one day force my sister to finally take care of herself but if she never does at least we all have some ideas for protecting our own mental health. Thank you for sharing with us. Hugs to you all.

[musicbox]

I'm a lurker, too... but just joined today and read every single one of these posts. LOL

My absolutely brilliant uber-creative 19yo daughter just came home from a top-5 college because she couldn't handle the loneliness (she had 3 roommates and 30,000 other students to talk to) and she threatened that suicide was imminent. She was just diagnosed with BPD this past summer, although probably she's been struggling with it for years. She's jobless, in intensive DBT group therapy (which she sleeps through, I think), and avoids talking to us or doing anything productive when she's home. I'm so frustrated.

Anyway, we are not at the kicking-her-out phase yet, but it's certainly crossed my mind. Thanks for all the posts and responses; it's nice (?) to know what I'm getting into. *sigh*

[a2sj]

Daughter was diagnosed with BPD around the age of 18.  Alcoholic and addict as well. Went into rehab and hospitalization several times from age 18 to 23. She stayed in a relationship for over five years with the same boyfriend. That ended a few years ago. Went through who knows how many jobs in the past twelve years. I stopped putting up with the harassing and even threatening phone calls a few years ago. She would call when high or drunk to argue or tell me what a bad dad I was. Received some text messages earlier this year very graphically hinting at her new sex work.

Other than that things are fine. I hope things work out better for you.

[Rev]

I can relate to that feeling of just wanting to cut absolutely every financial tie. It's an absolutely amazing feeling when it's over. I felt 1,000 lbs lighter. I will never entangle my life with my son's in any way like that again.

It really does created a web of unforeseen complications.  I am currently struggling with a bizarre feeling of foreboding - and this post helps me focus on what to look for in the  future.

I am not sure if people are "blaming me" for having drawn a serious financial boundary with my daughter or it's the grief I am feeling for having had to draw it at all - and now my negative self talk is kicking in.

But - I totally identify with not being enmeshed with my daughter's drama EVER again.

Thanks for this sobering post.

Rev

[Rev]

Relieved.
That said, I'm not out of the woods or the weeds until she's out of the apartment since I'm on the lease and utilities. Some communication will be necessary until that happens in November but I can still maintain boundaries.
And ya... she's on my cell phone family plan as well. Changing that with next billing cycle.

I just did the same ...

A pivot point for me.

Hang in there.

Rev

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Leaf56]

You said: "I am currently struggling with a bizarre feeling of foreboding."

I've felt that way a lot too.

You said: "I am not sure if people are "blaming me" for having drawn a serious financial boundary with my daughter"

They might be, but there's probably no way you could ever explain in full what has transpired, so **** 'em. Life is too short. You're going to have to live it as you see fit. YOU know, not them.

You said: "or if it's the grief I am feeling for having had to draw it at all - and now my negative self talk is kicking in."

Yeah, it's probably a bit of both. I'm sure that no matter what happens, all of us who've gone through this will feel grief. It's effin hard, man.

You said: "But - I totally identify with not being enmeshed with my daughter's drama EVER again."

Yep.

You said: "Thanks for this sobering post."

You're welcome. Whenever you need a kick in the pants, just give me a holler

[Leaf56]

a2sj, so sorry for what you're going through. I hope it gets better.

[a2sj]

Well in another 10-20 years or so my daughter should be slowing down. Similar to her BPD diagnosed mother. A family therapist predicted ~25 years ago that her energy for her negative behaviors would start to slow down after she reached her 40's. I'd say it's about a downgrade from a Category 5 to Category 2 drama storm.

I drop by the site here to see if there is anything new in the cure dept. for BPD. It would be nice if there was significant progress in neurology and the treatment of mental illness vs only symptomatic treatment and hopes and prayers.

[Rev]

I drop by the site here to see if there is anything new in the cure dept. for BPD. It would be nice if there was significant progress in neurology and the treatment of mental illness vs only symptomatic treatment and hopes and prayers.

And that's the real challenge with BPD - it's a mood disorder, not a neurological one at it's base. It's root cause is purely psychological, if we are talking simply BPD.

It is well accepted that DBT and a long term commitment is the suggested path. DBT is not therapy so much as it a reconditioning of sorts that has an impact on neuro-pathways.

Rev

[a2sj]

From the Mayo Clinic, causes:  https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20370237

We aren't going to be able to do much more until we understand how brains actually work. Progress on this front is still moving at a glacial pace. We still don't even know how memories are actually encoded.

[Leaf56]

a2sj, exactly! I agree completely. It's so frustrating that there have been so few advances in mental health. I guess the same can be said for practically all medical problems though. Rev, I do agree that with a lot of practice, a person with BPD can train him/herself to react differently to stimuli. a2sj, I also agree that the disorder often burns itself out with age. That's what happened with my sister. She told me recently that she eventually just got so sick of herself. She still has issues, but she's able to mostly enjoy her life and has achieved stability within a very calm world she's created for herself that can't really include our mother. I hope my son can eventually do the same.

[Saucey123]

Hi, all. Just found this website and have spent the afternoon reading this thread. It jumped out at me because we're going through this with our 16yo daughter. I know this is about adult children, but we surrendered our daughter three months ago to Children's Aid and I resonate with this topic and all the parental anxiety it entails.

We'd been doing therapy after therapy with her since grade two but her behaviours, entitlement, resistance to change just kept escalating. I won't go into the details because what I've read here echoes everything we've seen and heard in our home. We tried so many therapeutic approaches but she turned her nose up at all of them. When she turned 15, we decided we didn't have too many more years to make a difference in her life, so we agreed to send her to wilderness therapy in Utah--an expense that kept me up at night. She said she was really invested and wanted to get past this diagnosis. We bought it. She was discharged early because they felt her progress was only "performative" and that she was wasting their time. We tried one more international program, another palm-sweating expense, and she was discharged after six days! That's when we realized this wasn't our fight to win. We could do everything in our power as parents, but that would never be enough for her. And, ironically, I think the pressure of all our anxiety to make her "better" just added to her resentment and shame. Lose-lose.

So, when she flew home, we drove her directly to Children's Aid. We visit her Saturday mornings if she has been generally stable. We don't go to the hospital when she is taken there for dysregulation or self-harm. We don't engage in anything to do with her self-pity or talk about harming herself.

I can't say it's gotten better. It was much worse in fact for a while. She's got incredible determination (not for the positive things in life) and seems to be testing us. The stakes rose precipitously at first (jumped out of a 40' tree), but they are calming down now. She still has outbursts and damages property, lashes out at staff, but the next shift comes on and she's back where she started. They don't have the earnestness we have that she get better. It's a job and they are kind but detached. I think that helps. If anyone is interested, I was directed to a wonderful NPR Invisibilia podcast, "The Problem with the Solution," about the benefits of the mentally ill living away from home.
https://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/483855073/the-problem-with-the-solution

What I can say is that we have had such an enormous weight lifted from our shoulders. My husband had a heart attack two years ago and I attribute a lot of it to the constant tension in our family--the walking on eggshells. When I hear they've taken her to hospital yet again, I am so grateful that it's not me sitting there with her in the wee hours. When she calls with her complaints or impulsive/unrealistic plans, I can be detached and set boundaries about how much I'm willing to listen to. But my heart still races when the phone rings.

She sometimes accuses us of making our love conditional. I tell her that I agree that it must feel like that. When she wants to engage in a debate, all I tell her is "We can't keep you safe. This is what we can do."

Finally, I'd say that a friend with an adult daughter with BPD told me something that has really stuck with me. She was speaking with her therapist about her fears for her daughter's future. The therapist said, "Your daughter is going to be fine. Everyone around her, not so much."

Thank you for all your heartfelt posts. It helps so much to hear your stories and know we are not alone. No one gets this journey we are on except those on the same road.

[BonnieW]

This is an excellent thread for me at this time!

I have stopped helping and communicating with my 40 year old adult daughter.  I took these steps in support of my own mental health.  After years of suffering sleepless nights and trying to manage my own emotional eating, I found peace during the last 10 months when we haven't been speaking.  I manage to sleep between 7 to 8 hours each night, I go to the gym 5 days each week and have lost almost 45 pounds (more control over binging/emotional eating).  Until today...  I received mean and derogatory text messages from my daughter last night and this morning, and it has triggered the same bad feelings that are so familiar.

I don't plan to respond to her very dramatic messages except to say:

Thanks for your notes. 
Unfortunately, your text messages have been triggers for me and had emotional effects that have been harmful to me in the past.
I respectfully request that you avoid contact with me for some additional time.
I don’t feel that reconnecting at this time would be good for either of us.

I have blocked her number in the past and will do it again, if she doesn't respect my request. 

I don't feel guilty any more.  I used to feel very guilty, but this has settled as I've come to realize the mental health issues that have been settled during the last few months.

My story seems to be a common one within this thread; a very sad story, too.

I wish that I could have a healthy relationship with my daughter, but I'm not going to jump back into that quicksand if it has a derogatory affect on my own mental well-being.

I wish peace to all of you.

Kind regards,

Bonnie

[Leaf56]

You have given me so much to think about, not least of which was that podcast, which I have to say had a few interesting ideas in it, those of which I can easily identify were the ones that resonated with you and your situation, but the whole of which was completely smashed together by the podcast host women who have no idea what they're talking about and mostly just confused and conflated in an attempt at profundity. So, so dangerous, and in a nutshell IS the problem with our world right now. But leaving that aside (and I will try to get into it at some point), I really want to hear more about this surrender thing. How does that work? What country or part of the U.S. are you in? Is she your biological child? Are you planning on taking her back? I would love to hear all the details about this. And I must say, you are being incredibly brave, and I don't doubt at all that you know what you're doing is right for your child and your family. I'm away right now, but I hope to get back to this soon.

Hi Bonnie,
Welcome to my thread! Good for you! You know you're doing the right thing. One detail I'd suggest changing is that I wouldn't thank her for her notes. And I'd tell her this time that if you ever receive anything like them again you will be blocking her number.

[Saucey123]

Hi, Leaf56. I can explain a bit more about the Children's Aid angle. I wasn't sure it was good for this thread, so didn't dwell on the details. First, I'm in Canada, but I imagine the system is somewhat similar to the U.S.. After we exhausted every avenue we could think of, it started to dawn on us that we were enablers: every time she sabotaged a form of support or help, we jumped in and tried to find something 'better' and reached deeper into our savings.

At two Emerg visits in Canada, psych staff had suggested Children's Aid. I was deeply offended. I thought they were suggesting we were bad parents.

We'd hired a patient advocate to help navigate the complicated Canadian mental health system and the waiting lists. She said going to Utah was our best bet. We resisted a long time because our daughter has an eating disorder and wouldn't be eligible for any travel insurance in the event she became unwell. The financial risks were way too high.

Her borderline behaviours intensified, with regular visits to hospitals, calls to police for assistance with her aggression, and suicidality, etc.. Finally we relented and sent her to Utah, something she was excited about. When she was discharged early from two facilities in the U.S., we felt we'd had enough. We felt at peace because we'd done everything we could, and we were now immune to her threats to harm herself if we didn't do more. As the Utah program taught us about pwBPD, "You can't win. You can only choose how to lose."

Our patient advocate called Children's Aid (CAS). The advocate told us that we'd exhausted every reasonable option and laid out for us in pretty blunt terms the chaos and pain we'd be facing if we let her back into our home. Our daughter was the most treatment-resistant person she'd dealt with in 45 years. She said that CAS could be a wake-up call--no mummy and daddy to be an audience for her behaviours, no family trips, no electronics, and all the other things she seemed to assume were her right.

The advocate made the case to CAS that our daughter wasn't safe in our home because she was a danger to us (physically aggressive with me) and we weren't able to manage her behaviours (and that no reasonable parent could). So, Children's Aid took her in. It was incredibly painful. She's adopted and we signed the papers to have her placed under a Temporary Care Agreement (not giving up our parental rights) on the anniversary of the day we adopted her as a baby.

Today she called and we had a really lovely chat. She's chosen to get treatment for her eating disorder and seems proud of this step. I don't get excited about it. She has to be doing this for herself and not just performing for me.

She will stay under CAS care until 18 or we see some real and sustained improvement. In the meantime, we are learning to release all the tension and relish the lack of chaos in our lives. I don't anticipate that she will ever live with us again. This is a wake-up call for her and hopefully it is early enough in her life that she can avoid the worst aspects of this disorder. But whatever comes, it is her decision now, and I am finally okay with that.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Flossy]

Finally, I'd say that a friend with an adult daughter with BPD told me something that has really stuck with me. She was speaking with her therapist about her fears for her daughter's future. The therapist said, "Your daughter is going to be fine. Everyone around her, not so much."

I am going to write this on my wall. I will read it every time I am tempted to reach out again or tempted to have hope. Along with your other quote about pwBPD
"You can't win, you can only choose how to lose".

I am pleased to meet you. My daughter is 51, I haven't spoken with her for 14 years apart from a few cold messages. Today I was tempted to reply on her Instagram page. She has posted photographs of my 20 year old grandson with words regarding the hardship of him finalising his education. As she has blocked me from everything else for 14 years I know she wants kudos for her role in the success she sees in this.

Success supported by a marriage to a very wealthy man and complete protection for her future and that of her child. Very different from my circumstances which she is critical of me for. I keep reminding myself that I cant bear to have a friend with BPD, why would I want her back in my life?

I am open, honest, brave and practical. This cannot be tolerated by a pwBPD.

PS. I had gained 20 kgs from binge eating over the past 12 years. Ten days ago I booked myself in for laser liposuction of upper and lower abdomen and flanks and I am bloody fabulous. I look like I have lost 10kgs over night. This is my year of doing what it takes to get "me" back again. The next step is the b**bs.

I know it's superficial, but boy it feels good to remember who I was and not see the evidence of the whirlpool of madness she brought into my mind.

Best wishes...

[Rev]

I am going to write this on my wall. I will read it every time I am tempted to reach out again or tempted to have hope. Along with your other quote about pwBPD
"You can't win, you can only choose how to lose".

I am pleased to meet you. My daughter is 51, I haven't spoken with her for 14 years apart from a few cold messages. Today I was tempted to reply on her Instagram page. She has posted photographs of my 20 year old grandson with words regarding the hardship of him finalising his education. As she has blocked me from everything else for 14 years I know she wants kudos for her role in the success she sees in this.

Success supported by a marriage to a very wealthy man and complete protection for her future and that of her child. Very different from my circumstances which she is critical of me for. I keep reminding myself that I cant bear to have a friend with BPD, why would I want her back in my life?

I am open, honest, brave and practical. This cannot be tolerated by a pwBPD.

PS. I had gained 20 kgs from binge eating over the past 12 years. Ten days ago I booked myself in for laser liposuction of upper and lower abdomen and flanks and I am bloody fabulous. I look like I have lost 10kgs over night. This is my year of doing what it takes to get "me" back again. The next step is the b**bs.

I know it's superficial, but boy it feels good to remember who I was and not see the evidence of the whirlpool of madness she brought into my mind.

Best wishes...

Ditto - Ditto - Ditto  ... I keep coming back to this thread when I need to.

[Flossy]

Rev...it's like a practical reminder, isn't it. I cannot bear to read the posts of those still in the early stages. This is practical, reasonable, real. My main reminder is that I can't bear any other pwBPD in my life ( and I have tried to do so with several). Why would I want her when she has it plus the extra advantage to her tool kit of parent/daughter bond. One she can use with cruelty. Richard Gannon simplifies it be saying not to bother any more to think of a diagnosis, but speak of them as VCP's = Very Cruel Persons. Who would want a very cruel person in their life.

Of course this doesn't stop me from aching at times, but I am so much better and it is rare now. Like the grief of my son's death, twenty years ago, this grief is fading rapidly with practise and reminders.

Big hugs x

[Rev]

Rev...it's like a practical reminder, isn't it. I cannot bear to read the posts of those still in the early stages. This is practical, reasonable, real. My main reminder is that I can't bear any other pwBPD in my life ( and I have tried to do so with several). Why would I want her when she has it plus the extra advantage to her tool kit of parent/daughter bond. One she can use with cruelty. Richard Gannon simplifies it be saying not to bother any more to think of a diagnosis, but speak of them as VCP's = Very Cruel Persons. Who would want a very cruel person in their life.

Of course this doesn't stop me from aching at times, but I am so much better and it is rare now. Like the grief of my son's death, twenty years ago, this grief is fading rapidly with practise and reminders.

Big hugs x

It is true what  you say about practise and reminders.

I am finding that the grief of laying down a boundary is far less to carry than the nearly daily worrying about the web that gets created. I am working now on just accepting, that for better or worse, I did the things I did with every intention of raising a daughter to be self sufficient. It makes no sense that I should have been beating myself up like I did when I first found this thread ... for ... wait for it... insisting that my daughter pay for her own cell phone when she is gainfully employed and has inherited money from my now deceased parents.

My upside down self perception is slowly righting itself.

Hugs back.

Rev

[Flossy]

It makes no sense that I should have been beating myself up like I did when I first found this thread ... for ... wait for it... insisting that my daughter pay for her own cell phone when she is gainfully employed and has inherited money from my now deceased parents.

My upside down self perception is slowly righting itself.

Hugs back.

Rev

Remember to remind yourself (I do write on my walls ...with chalk) or notes...especially in the toilet and any spot where I tend to go daily or stand for a moment)...Your upside down self perception is not a flaw in you. The narcissistic manipulation of pwBPD is the work of an expert in manipulation. It is almost like being in the hands of a psychopath. But one you love. The way this mind works is to manipulate you, gaslight you, play games with your mind and get you to believe they are "normal".

I have noticed that pwBPD seem to find playing games with people is what they call 'exciting", "fun" and having an "interesting" life, as opposed to what they consider a "boring", "ordinary" life.

You did not do this, you did not fail to notice something important or do something necessary. You were duped.  It's sickening. I feel for you. It's heartbreaking.

I keep going back in my mind to the novel and movie The Clan of the Cave Bear. The story of a girl in prehistoric times who left her tribe and family to  set out in the world by herself. I suspect we were meant to do this. I wonder if we are not meant to have our child in our lives our whole lives. I don't know.

You may find you can't share how you truly feel and what you are deciding to no longer do, as you refine your stance with your child. It's not worth the drama and attention it will bring to you. Keep it close and spill your guts on here. Nobody else would ever understand and honestly...f### 'em anyway. Where were they and where are they with practical solutions and suggestions. They don't get to judge you. We know you are justified in what you choose to do and no longer do. All of us take way too long to come to our conclusions and get really angry, then rarely angry. Then OK , then soon, just fine. Only today, I was driving and imagining getting a message from mine to connect. My go-to thought for a response is always..."Why would I want to do that?".

I have to remember. She will always be allright.

Great talkin' to you Rev.

[Leaf56]

Yay, Flossy's back! I just got back from a trip, and I'm just brimming with things to say, but I'm always so impatient and just want to reply to everybody as quickly as possible so my responses are often less than what I'd hoped they would be, mostly because I'm afraid that if new posters don't get immediate feedback they'll leave and never come back. So Saucey, I see you online right now, and I hope you stick around long enough to read and then interact with me. And Flossy, I hope you continue to stick around. And I wish everyone else would come back, or at least post just to say they're reading but don't have time to write.

[Rev]

Yay, Flossy's back! I just got back from a trip, and I'm just brimming with things to say, but I'm always so impatient and just want to reply to everybody as quickly as possible so my responses are often less than what I'd hoped they would be, mostly because I'm afraid that if new posters don't get immediate feedback they'll leave and never come back. So Saucey, I see you online right now, and I hope you stick around long enough to read and then interact with me. And Flossy, I hope you continue to stick around. And I wish everyone else would come back, or at least post just to say they're reading but don't have time to write.

Knowing how stuff like this can take on a life of it's own and that this thread is hitting a 100 comments, you can be sure that much more is going on than meets the eye.  In a really great way, dropping by here has the same effect as dropping by my pub.  You just sort of get "caught up", even if unconsciously.

Rev

[Saucey123]

Sorry, Leaf56. My browser didn't refresh so I didn't see your post.

I've been listening to a podcast which some may find interesting. It's by the director of the wilderness program my daughter attended and his name is Dr Reedy. The program helps 'troubled' teens and young adults, which means behavioural issues but also addictions. Of all the therapies and psychiatrists we've seen, this was the first person that made sense to me. He urges parents to find their own sense of serenity and detach from their kids--not expecting them to make us happy, letting them figure it out, setting firm boundaries, etc.. It may or may not resonate with you, but it helped me.

[Leaf56]

Rev, what an excellent way to describe what we've got going here. I really appreciate it because I think having a community of like-minded people and not feeling like aliens is what's going to get us all through.

Saucey, yay, you're back! I've been playing catchup on so many things today, and I'm dying to dive into this and all that you're bringing to the table here and explain further my reaction to the other podcast you mentioned. Every time I think I have a free hour something else pops up.