Sucked in - how to navigate

[maxsterling]

As I mentioned in previous threads, BPDw's father has ALS.  As of now, he is going into hospice and the most optimistic prognosis is about 2 months.  He can no longer talk, and can no longer eat solid food.  W has not spoken to him since the beginning of December after a huge argument where he demanded she leave and to never contact him again.  From my understanding her dad was reacting (harshly) to typical BPD behavior of W meddling in the business of him and his wife, trying to control things, and black and white thinking and painting her stepmom as "evil".  W still thinks her stepmom is evil - this is part black and white thinking and part a PTSD reaction from an abusive childhood where she viewed her stepmom as a person diverting her dad's attention.  But, she managed to patch something up yesterday and has plans to see her dad this weekend.

Things have not improved between me and my W, but I have learned more coping mechanisms, and I have been more firm about what I want and need and let her navigate around that.  That has helped me.  I am much less concerned about pleasing her, and instead taking steps to help myself.  An example was a few weeks ago I wanted to see my parents for the first time in a year.  I told W that I would go myself whether she wanted to or not.  She ranted and was completely hostile for a week, but in the end she decided to go and had a good time, and have since seen my parents twice since then. 

For the short term, I am managing.  For the long term, I know there is no way I can continue the status quo.  I really don't like spending time with my W anymore because of her negativity, and because those times are rarely relaxing and usually exhausting.

The problem is, I care about her, and I would never leave someone whose dad only had a few weeks left.  So, I put up with more than usual.  And I fear she is suicidal.  She is currently self-destructive in ways that she hasn't been since a teenager.  She talks about wanting to die, saying she won't make it through this.  She is in regular contact with her T, and her T is aware of this behavior.   W is talking about being hospitalized, but does not want to go that route right now because it is not unlikely that her dad could pass away within a week.  I have told her that I would support her if she wanted to go in-patient, but also agreed that she should try to avoid that if she can for now so that she can be with her dad before he passes away.  I do have contact info for her T.  I am not sure what I would discuss with her T other than a safety plan.

This is really difficult to navigate.  I am sucked in for the moment and feel that now is not the time to make any r/s moves.  How does one navigate this?  In a situation that you know is not good for you long term, but feel the need to stay?  Navigating the day-to-day is difficult enough, but when W randomly comes up with some kind of future plan (moving, buying this or that) it feels impossible.  The worst thing is - I have zero time to myself now, and that has been part of my coping strategy.  W says she does not feel safe with herself alone.  Sometimes she will visit a friend or have an appointment - but that means I am with the kids. 

Thoughts here?  I am starting to just accept that things are going to be horrible for a few weeks and do the best I can.  I just don't know how much room I have to do anything right now.

[GaGrl]

I am so sorry -- end of life situations are so difficult, and especially so with pwBPD relationships.

My mom died after hospitalization, rehab, home health, and home hospice care about 7 months ago, and I (only child) was left an exhausted shell. My husband was an amazing support, and I can understand why you feel an obligation to be with your wife during this period.

Have you had a conversation yet with her T about a safety plan? If your wife has enough awareness of her mental state right now to be talking about inpatient care and not wanting to be left alone, that level of fragility needs to be taken seriously.

Do you have friends or relatives you can enlist to help provide monitoring? Or help with the twins?

[Notwendy]

Hi Max,
I understand this is a tough time for your wife and it makes sense to not want to make a large relationship move at the moment.

However, there won't ever be a "good time". There will always be a "reason to stay" if you are not ready to leave. If you were ready, I agree, you would not actually leave right now, but you would continue to look at how to do that . You could make an appointment with a  lawyer. You would be making an assessment of your wife's needs if she were on her own, such as hospitalization. I suspect if you did leave, she'd need to be hospitalized. But if you believe you truly needed to leave, you would be pursuing that path.

You have made a lot of progress in standing up for yourself and you can actually be supportive and also continue self care. Self care recognizes that your wife may need hospital support due to the stress of her father's illness. Caring about her would mean encouraging her to get that support. I would talk to her T. Perhaps she can get hospital care but be allowed a leave to visit her father to say goodbye and also attend the funeral. Maybe there's a way to work this out.

When wife brings up future plans, reply that things are stressful now and it's not a good time to discuss such major changes, "let's focus on your concerns about your Dad".

Take care of yourself Max

[Notwendy]

Max, I guess I am trying to reframe this situation for you. It's a really tough time for your wife. You care about her and so have chosen to not make a big relationship change at this time, but when you say "sucked in" that is passive. You making the choice puts you in charge. It's active.

Saying terms like "sucked in" perpetuates the thinking that you are at the control of your wife- that you have no choice. You do have choices and they are tough ones for sure. But even the change in how you perceive this - from sucked in to I choose to support her during this time is empowering.

When my father passed away, it was really difficult and so I understand your empathy. I would have been too rough to manage a marital split up at the same time. It is understandable to choose to not do this at this time, but it's still your choice- and you can continue with boundaries and self care through this.

[maxsterling]

I've talked to my own dad about possibly needing his help to watch the kids/handle duties soon.  He is ready.  My W has other family members who may help, but they live out of state.  I've given my work advance notice.  

As for talking with Ls right now - that doesn't feel right, like I am taking time to plan a potential exit from someone during the time of her greatest need.  I have enough information I need for right now.

As for W going to hospital - I think as far as a safety plan I would want her to have one picked out with phone numbers handy - as well as her T.  Personally, I think she should be in-patient right now (I think she should have been the past 3 months), and I think part of her feels that way too.  I don't know what the legalities are for leaving - but that is something I could get by calling an anonymous hotline.  I do know there had to be some kind of legal rule the past two times she was in - she could not just check herself out.  She had to be cleared first.  She is feeling suicidal.  Yesterday I had to stop her several times from seriously self harming.  Right now she does not want me to leave the house even to go pick up food because she fears hurting herself.  I am 100% confident that she would attempt suicide right now if I took action to leave her, especially with the kids.  And with her the way she is right now there is no way I would leave without the kids.  

My feeling is that she will need to go in-patient after her dad dies - and I will support her and encourage her in that way.  That would probably be a better time for me to explore my options.

[Notwendy]

I understand your situation. It's especially tough because of your wife's inability to cope and the degree of her mental illness. Even in the best of situations, if you were to leave the marriage, she may not be able to cope and I know that concerns you.

This is the situation my parents were in, and this is why I said there won't ever be a "good time" to do that. Suicide threats are a particularly hard load to carry if you feel you are the one that is keeping her from doing that. While you are technically not responsible for her decisions, this kind of dynamics- where she threatens (either for real or not- but that's not a risk one should take)- and you stay by her side constantly (which both reassures her and reinforces this behavior) to keep her from doing that ( because you care) can be a self perpetuating pattern- because you don't want her to do that.

It's also likely she may become suicidal if you leave the marriage.

My BPD mother has attempted suicide and self harm. It's scary. And my father took on a role like you have for her.

I left home as a teenager to go to college and didn't spend much time at their house since then. However, when my father got ill, I went and stayed to help out. I realized that Dad was in the hospital so he didn't really need much assistance. His needs were being met. My "helping" was actually not leaving BPD mother alone for that amount of time but I didn't know the extent of her issues as I had not seen them as an adult without my father around. I now know just how much his support kept her functional.

Alone with BPD mother was like being with a psych patient and I am not trained to deal with that. I know this was a stressful situation for her and without my father's caretaking, she was completely out of control. And abusive. It was terrifying.

So yes, I get it. You don't want to shake the hornet's nest right now.

But for anything to change, and I don't mean leaving unless you choose to, but for you to get some relief of your caretaking duties, I wonder if you can get some support? You are not the only person who is a caregiver for a family member, but it's also recommended that caregivers get some kind of break so they don't burn out.

Can you talk to her T about what supports are available should you choose to leave the marriage? Or what is available so you are not the sole caregiver and can stay in the marriage without burning out? I know mental health resources aren't always great, but maybe there's a day respite plan or home health or other supports for her?

[ThanksForPlaying]

As Notwendy says, there's never a good time. For a year now, uBPDgf has had visitations every other weekend with S14. The cycle has been rage and disregulation during the two weeks we DON'T have him, followed by apologies and just barely keeping her composure during the few days we do have S14. She uses "you can't kick me out, S14 will have nowhere to go this weekend".

She went to jail yesterday and she knows she screwed up big time, but is still unable to process the situation. I moved out (left her a couch to sleep on and some basics). Now it's "how could you do this? What am I going to do with S14 tomorrow? I can't bring him here."

Back to your situation - so sorry you have to go through a terminal illness of a family member. My father had terminal cancer for what was originally thought would be months, but ended up being almost 4 years. So grateful for the "borrowed time" but it can be agonizing and exhausting.

pwBPD has an extremely disregulated mother - BP, BPD, probably some other things. She recycles with the mother and destroys everything around her when they fight... That's why she ended up in jail yesterday - due to her own actions, but it started with a trigger from her BPD mom that sent her into a violent rage and drinking spell that ended in jail. She now says that was all justified because "her mom died". Meaning she's "dead to her" - she is not actually dead. "How can you take my child away from me when my mom just died?". She will undoubtedly let her mother back into her life in the coming weeks, and then have another "death" of her mother. That's the cycle I see, ironically without any actual death. Actual death would of course send her into another rage, acting as another excuse.

With BPD, it's never a "good time" to make hard decisions.

[formflier]

Hey Max...

Couple things jumped out at me

You continue to see that you doing what you need and letting your wife react is the "best way".   And you are "getting better at it"...  How close are you to doing that "all the time"..."without apology".  

pwBPD seem to be masters of getting us "nons" to be unbalance and "reactive" to them...and you can see positive relationship results when those BPD plans are foiled and replaced with healthy alternatives (like seeing your parents).


OK...second thing.

I would ask that you revisit your thinking on contacting Ls and moving forward.  I think there is a vast different between privately moving the process forward and making any sort of announcement to your wife.

My hope for you is that you can get things to the point where all you have to do is call your L and say "file on Monday"  (or whenever).  And of course this should be a private matter until you decide to file.

Yes you should exercise some level of empathy and wisdom about the timing of informing your wife of this...so for example...on the day and perhaps the week that your wife's Father passes away...probably wise to pick a different time.  Other than that, probably wise to continue and let the chips fall where they go.

Question:  Is it wise to "know" that things can't continue as they are, yet also decide to NOT privately keep efforts "moving forward" to change things?  Do you see a contradiction or inconsistency there?


Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

A few updates here -

First - I did talk with W's T a few weeks ago.  The T gave me considerable validation for the stress I am under with W, and said she could not expect anyone to handle things better.  After I hung up the phone, I realized her T basically said that I have done a great job being a caretaker...

That was a little eye opening.

Second, W's father passed away last week.  That was very difficult for her, and for me as well because I really liked her dad and always enjoyed seeing him. 

He passed after W and him had re-connected for a week after 3 months of not talking.  I'm glad for the re-connection but it was not easy as W resumed her feud with her stepmom.  Basically, W could not enjoy her last days with her dad because she was too worried about what stepmom was/wasn't doing.  And the reverse was true too.  On the day he passed, the hospice nurses came over and the first 45 minutes W and stepmom spent asking the nurses questions in a passive aggressive manner, implied they had not done a good job and implied that other treatments were a possibility.  The nurses then went to help my father in law, came out and said that he probably only had a few hours left.  All this bitterness and worry got in the way of them actually spending quality time with him.  Really quite heartbreaking.  In the end, the doctors and nurses were 100% correct here. 

The experience for me was also eye opening in that the behaviors that W complained about from her stepmom were exactly the same as her behaviors.  I wonder if they realize it?  I could see that her stepmom may also have some degree of BPD or NPD, just not as obvious because it didn't develop into violent rages or self harm.

Since her dad's passing, W has not been well.  She has urges to self harm that she has acted on, raged uncontrollably, and generally done little to take care of herself.  Today she raged and self harmed, and I managed to get her T on the phone to calm her down.  It was either that or an ambulance.  It still may wind up in hospitalization because W banged her head up pretty bad.   

[GaGrl]

It is not surprising that your wife is reacting to her father's death with crisis behavior. I'm so sorry. Hospice care is so stressful -- my mother was in home hospice care for four months until her death in 2021, and I certainly felt the pressure physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (and I consider myself a healthy person).

Have you determined a level of rage and self-harm that would result in a 911 call?

Can you maintain this level of vigilance much longer without help or relief?

[maxsterling]

Have you determined a level of rage and self-harm that would result in a 911 call?

Can you maintain this level of vigilance much longer without help or relief?

If her T was not available to talk, 911 was my next call.  W was beating herself up pretty bad.  I would have specifically said that I needed paramedics and a mental health crisis team because W had hurt herself pretty bad.  I can say it was downright terrifying for me and I am glad the kids were at school. 

No, I cannot maintain this level.  It is affecting me physically and mentally.  What started this rage was because I stopped at the hardware store after I dropped the kids off at school and was home 30 minutes later.  Stopping at the hardware store was part of my self care to finish up projects that have been stalled for years.  W does not want to be alone.  Not even for 15 minutes.

[GaGrl]

What is your level of tolerance?

I sense that you are near your limit.

[maxsterling]

What is your level of tolerance?

I sense that you are near your limit.

I am over my limit.  I am considering contacting her T tomorrow and telling her that taking care of Ws needs right now is more than I can handle and is taking away from the kids' needs.  Hopefully T will then take the steps needed to get W into a place where she can be cared for.

[ForeverDad]

Do you have a court order to codify your position as primary parent?  I know it seems obvious to you with all her issues and behaviors, but courts (effectively) claim to know nothing and are clueless about the past.  Even if you want to remain married, you need the legal paperwork that you're the responsible parent in making custody decisions and the primary parent for parenting schedules.  She is clearly impaired in parenting matters.

If you don't have the legal paperwork in place then if/when you do go to court you will find out that the court will start with "both parents having equal but thus far undefined parenting rights".  You need it spelled out in legal terms to avoid her somehow becoming on equal terms with you, or even in charge, on custody and parenting schedule.

A side issue is that once court is informed she is "stabilized and discharged" then court will want her to have a greater legal share.  However, you know that her mental status has its ups and downs and a risk with court is that on the one hand it wants to grant more and quickly but on the other hand is reluctant or slow to limit when needed.

[GaGrl]

The time during which your wife is in in-patient care could be spent working on the legal aspects of parenting -- actual separation/divorce work can wait. Just get something courts ordered that clarifies her inability to parent or to make parenting decisions.

[kells76]

Your W may actually be relieved at being in care. Just food for thought. It may not be "punishment" or "a bad thing". Honestly her acting out may be her unskilled way of communicating "please help me by escalating my care". I think her getting into a clinic/hospital setting might weirdly be a relief for her. Hope that way of thinking helps as you move forward.

[stolencrumbs]

Hopefully T will then take the steps needed to get W into a place where she can be cared for.

Do you have a sense of what this looks like in your area? Do you think your wife would go voluntarily? If she doesn't, is there enough to get her committed? If so, what kind of facility is she likely to go to, and for how long?

Just things to think about here. I waited a long time to get anyone else involved, and when I finally did and my ex was committed, I thought, okay, finally going to get some help. It didn't exactly turn out that way. I'd suggest trying to get as much information as you can about what is actually likely to happen in terms of getting her care or forcing her into care so, as much as possible, your expectations of what will happen match the reality.

[Notwendy]

pwBPD react to stressors the way they react to all stressors. So if their reactions are disordered to begin with, something like this can escalate them.

I know it was hard for your wife, but none of this is an excuse for not asking for help or calling 911 if needed. She has poor coping skills even without stress and when she is being accommodated. Her drug addictions are evidence of this- it's not just physical addiction, she uses drugs to numb out feelings she can't cope with- even on ordinary days-- so things are especially difficult when there's a stressor like this.

And on you too. You are not a mental health care professional. You can't replace that function for her.

[maxsterling]

The past few days have been rough.  W is basically having a "nervous breakdown", but last night and this morning has been more open with me than she has ever been about what is going on.  My impression is that she is much more disordered in her perceptions for a very long time than I imagined.  She has been diagnosed "complex PTSD", but it seems pretty apparent right now that the "trauma" often sounds like BPD perceptions of what most of us see as natural life events, or self-inflicted trauma.  Example:  what she describes as something horrible that someone else did to her sounds like a normal reaction of someone who is dealing with a pwBPD.    

The way she was acting this morning seemed to accept responsibility of her own behavior to the bad situations she has been in.  It dawned on her that all those people she claimed used her - that she was really using them.  That doesn't really change anything, but gave me new insight and thoughts on how to handle things better.

I'm convinced now she isn't one of those people who whom if you stopped caretaking her or enabling her that she would get any better.  It sounds like most people over the course of her life tried that approach with no positive change.  

Her T told me the other day that she felt in-patient care was not the best option.  I agreed with the T at the time, but now I disagree.  I think if W could be in the right program it could help.  The problem is many of the programs simply try to medicate.  When I asked about having her petitioned, that is what they told me - that they would take her someplace and get her medicated and then discharge.  I think W needs something right now that is targeted specifically to dealing with grief.  After talking with her this morning, I realize she never processed the grief of her mom dying 10 years ago, and that everything she has done in her life since then (including her r/s with me) has been a maladaptive coping mechanism because she was not given proper grief treatment after her mom's death.  I don't think she will get thru this without a more intensive treatment.

Going forward - it's very apparent right now that I need to do what I need to take care of me and the kids - and put ALL responsibility for her not upon her, but on professionals.  I need to trust my instincts completely and really push her into seeking intensive treatment. It sounds like at least right now she is open to that route, but just scared.

[GaGrl]

I would agree.

The loss of both parents is significant -- whether mentally ill or not. It was a profound loss for me -- especially as an only child of parents who were only children. Where does one look for connection?