Transition to Low Contact

[Mommydoc]

My prior thread is getting too long, so posting a new thread as the situation is transitioning again. Here is some historical background.

I am Healthcare POA for my mother who is severely disabled due to End stage Parkinsons, and also has mild dementia. I share financial POA sister with UBPD. My sister has resented my parents decision move to live close to me 10 years ago, as well as their decision to move into a local assisted living 6 years ago. My mothers health condition has progressed following my fathers death. Last year her health care team felt she required increased assistance and recommended a move into a higher level of care in the memory unit of the same facility. My sister disagreed, but as HC POA, I eventually made the decision and moved her. It was a good decision. She now alleges it was illegal (as she characterizes herself as 50% decision maker and the decision as a financial not medical one). She is also alleging poor care and negligence on the facility’s part. This has more to do with feeling excluded by their move and me making the decision against her wishes. It also has more to do with preserving an inheritance than my mothers needs. A few months ago, in response to her request to be included in everyday decisions I agreed to weekly meetings with her. It has been horrible. She keeps rehashing and distorting past events, blaming me and we get no where. I have tried to listen, empathize, and validate while maintaining safe boundaries. We are getting no where and the meetings are unproductive. In the last meeting I began to suspect she might be considering legal action against me or the facility.  I am confident that I am on solid ground, but am planning to engage an attorney to assure I would prevail and be able to assure my mother stays in the current facility where she is well cared for. During  the last one a few days ago, I told her I would not agree to moving my mom, and she went into a rage. We both acknowledged the meetings weren’t working.

I want to focus on my mom and my family and end the the phone meetings. They  aren’t working. I want to go back to Low Contact, text/email. I think asynchronous communication will de-escalate the emotions,  create a better paper trail, and reduce some of the conflict and my stress.

She keeps saying I am excluding her, and won’t collaborate with her. I need help telling her the meetings need to end it we do need to make decisions on a lot of things and I would like her input. She has continued to text me this week as if nothing happened. I know she is going to send an invite.  I feel like I should restate that meetings aren’t working and I want to transition to email communication. My husband thinks I should  just not respond or ignore invite but that feels really passive aggressive to me. It is likely to trigger her either way, so my feeling is to just be clear and not worry about it. 

[Turkish]

Where does she want to move your mom? I'll guess that this is just tossed out there with no research or real plans...

Might be time to go:

2.03 | B.I.F.F. Technique for Communications

[Notwendy]

Mommydoc, I think there's no way to assert yourself with your sister without her blowing up. It's more about you being able to manage how you feel as she does so. I've learned this with BPD mother. Once we took a family vacation to visit my father's side of the family. I know this had to be hurtful to her as she'd prefer we visit her instead, and we do sometimes, but I understand she would feel slighted- yet this is what we wanted to do. There was no way we could not tell her. She would have found out somehow- someone might have posted a picture on social media or something. We dreaded telling her and she reacted as predicted, blew up, refused to speak to me for a while.

On my part, I didn't react. Eventually she called me as if nothing had happened.

What was even harder was telling her I didn't want her to move closer to me. This was done in a conference call with a social worker who brought up the need for assisted living. She does need it, but she refuses it. So her reply was that she'd go to one if it was near me. Since she brought it up, I had to tell her my own wishes which is no. The reaction was predictable- a visible personality change to witch with a string of mean comments.

One bit of advice I followed was to make it about me, not her. This helped to not trigger her. "I don't want this" Rather than, "you would be too difficult" because any "you" would be argued with "no I won't". Making it about me though gave her a way to make me the villain. That's hard, but it's how she sees things and she'd have seen me as a villain regardless.

To your sister, you will be the villain. I think you have seen this already. Your sister is feeling like a victim regardless. You've see the results of trying to reassure her that this isn't the case by agreeing to these meetings where she basically dumps her disordered feelings. Unfortunately, you can't fix this. She's going to see it the way she sees it.

You know you are making the best decisions for your mother no matter how she sees it. She may accuse you of all kinds of things but her saying something doesn't make it true.

Sometimes actions are better than words. While your H's suggestion seems passive aggressive to you, sometimes a subtle pulling back rather than a statement about no more meetings is more effective. It also depends on how vindictive she is- and I would not exclude that possibility. A statement might result in her escalating her attempts to take legal action. It's good that you have arranged legal protection. It's hard to know what is driving her wish to conserve your mother's resources.

One idea is rather than to outright say "no meetings" you could decrease the frequency. With the next invitation say " I can't do it this week, talk to you next time" and then gradually decrease the frequency. Another one is to make them shorter. When she starts to go off, rather than continue to listen, say something like " I have to go take care of a situation sis, we will speak soon" and disengage. It can be your situation- your own emotional well being to take care of by not engaging further.

[GaGrl]

I think the idea of reducing the frequency of the meetings is a good tactic. Ask her to send info, questions, and her research via email, and only when you have something to discuss would you set up a call. Otherwise, it's going to be a weekly rehash that does you no good.

[kells76]

Agreed with the group:

Turkish's suggestion of keeping it BIFF is good. There's no need to explain why the meetings aren't working -- an explanation won't help her take it better.

Notwendy's suggestion of focusing on "I/Me" versus "you" is also helpful, as any time an explanation involving "what you are doing" is offered, it's an open door to argument and stalemate: "No I'm not and I wouldn't", "Yes you are and you already did", "No, you're misinterpreting it..." etc.

GaGrl's suggestion to include a positive reach-out for info is also helpful -- takes the focus off of the absence (no phone call) and immediately pivots to presence of contact (just more controlled).

I get the feeling that you can't just not respond to the meeting invitation -- especially because you do want the phone meetings to be done. Not responding to the invite prolongs the situation instead of more immediately transitioning to the new arrangement.

One way to communicate it might be:

"Hi Sis;

The phone meetings don't work for me any more; that being said, let's keep emailing about key topics like you've brought up before. We can keep the info sharing going on this email chain or if you want you could start another one; whatever works better for you.

Have a great weekend!

Mommydoc"

For me the key parts would be:

-the meetings don't work for you. There's nothing for her to (legitimately) argue about. What's she going to say -- "Yes the meetings DO work for you"? Even if she does come back with something that wacky, don't engage with it. You've made a BIFF statement with no JADE-ing and there is nothing else to discuss.

-you're immediately moving forward to problem solving. You aren't dwelling on the "absence/loss" part -- no more connection through phone meetings -- and are quickly pivoting to the "presence/connection" part -- stay connected via email (though what you aren't saying is -- because it's safer and more controlled for you).

-you offer her some control that you are OK with offering. Her call about the email thread, she can decide what works for her. That may give her a feeling of being "on top" or "above" you as she "tells you what to do" about which email thread to do. Or, she might not pick that up. Whatever. You can still email however you want, no matter what she does. This is an amount of control to offer her that is safe and has no big implications (vs "yes you can move your friend into the condo").

So yeah -- BIFF, no explanation, move forward immediately to new setup, and let go of any sense that it's possible to "phrase it right" so she doesn't explode. Probably this is less about "guaranteeing no explosion" and more about you communicating what you are going to do, in the most efficient way possible.

I think it's great that you are making choices to preserve your energy and sanity.

[livednlearned]

I feel like I should restate that meetings aren’t working and I want to transition to email communication.

One skill I learned here is to repeat the same phrase to people who insist on doing things their way. A quick BIFF statement, "Weekly meetings are too much for me. Let's go back to email."

Then, if you ignore an invite, it isn't passive aggressive. It's simply sticking to a boundary that is important for your well-being. Or, you can respond with the same BIFF statement. "Weekly meetings are too much for me. Email is better."

If she rages about this that and the other thing, you don't reward that behavior with a response. If she insists on weekly meetings, you simply send the same BIFF statement. "Weekly meetings are simply too much for me."

It sounds like your mom's care is stabilized for now, is that correct?

And your sister can always call the facility to check on your mom?

One thing many of us hope for is that we can uphold a boundary without it being unpleasant, and that is unfortunately rare. Most pwBPD discharge intense emotion in response to a boundary, and when that emotion dissipates, the issue sort of disappears too. Until it starts up again and the boundary is tested once again. Since the boundary isn't something she experiences internally, she will be driven to repeatedly test to see if it's still there. 

Patricia Evans, author of books on verbal abuse, writes about using the word Stop or NNo when someone is engaged in verbal abuse, and repeating it over and over until the person stops. I did this with my n/BPDx one night as he raged at me. I was trying to finish a paper for graduate school and he was screaming at me at the door. I held my hand up and said Stop firmly and repeated it until he kind of wound down and walked away muttering, which was a first. Before that, he would spend hours berating me, often into the night.

Responding like an archetypal parent seemed to almost unlock a part of his psyche that was looking for someone authoritative to help reign in his bad behavior.

I wonder if something similar is happening with your sister. She knows she's prone to emotional dysregulation and it must feel so scary and chaotic and exhausting. When others are firm and assertive with her, she may not like it on the surface but it can also temporarily help her resist her worst urges, the ones that lead repeatedly to bad outcomes. 

I am learning to treat boundaries as a kindness that helps pwBPD resist unhealthy and even unsafe impulses, even if they cannot perceive the benefits of those boundaries to themselves.

[Turkish]

My T offered an example of repeating the same short phrase until my ex "got it."

I started dating my ex when one of her younger brothers was 14. She told me that he could snap her back simply by saying "knock it off." (BIF?)

I resented that I was supposed to do that, but if that worked and I didn't try, I guess that was on me. It's fascinating that such things can work.

[Mommydoc]

Thanks Livednlearned! I love the simplicity of

Weekly meetings are too much for me. Let's go back to email."

I am going to try it! Turkish, BIFF has definitely worked in the past with er and I agree!

It's fascinating that such things can work.

Interestingly, the facility director called me out of the blue today  and offered me a room that has come available in memory unit  that is significantly less expensive (13%) but  a little smaller. I went and looked at it, showed it to my mom and it is a great option. I am going to offer this option to my sister. Is she says yes, it’s kind of agreeing to this facility. If she says no (expected), it demonstrates my effort to reduce cost. I think it is no lose for me.

[Notwendy]

 I think it is no lose for me.

IMHO Mommydoc, it's a lose when trying to address conflict with a pwBPD by doing something logical. You should still do what makes sense to you, but it may not please her.

Reducing costs while keeping the same quality of care makes sense- and that's the main reason to consider this. It's the same facility so it's not a big transition for her. With all her familiar things in the room, she won't feel she's in an unfamiliar place. Same staff.

If you decide to do this, do it because it makes sense to you.

What I have observed with someone with BPD is that the "want" they express isn't the whole of it. So when a logical solution for the want is done, it doesn't achieve resolution. This is because there's internal emotional needs - expressed at the want that you have to solve. But it's not your emotions to solve, it's their own internal feelings.

It seems that when my BPD mother wants something, and I do it, it's somehow wrong, or not enough. She can send you to the store to get her something, but it's the wrong brand, or the wrong item. You can do 10 things for her and not the 11th and she'll say "nobody does what I ask them to do".

I think moving your mother to another room to conserve costs is a financially wise decision. It may or may not please your sister.

[Mommydoc]

I agree NotWendy. You sound exactly like my mom. Despite her disabilities, including impact to her ability to speak, she has great insights.

I took my Mom to see the room, and at first she was suspicious, and initially kept saying “Why”. I try to be honest with my mom but to protect her from the ongoing conflict with my sister. I told her that I was trying to make everyone happy, to keep her happy and safe by keeping her at the facility and  to make my sister happy by addressing some minor concerns about cost  by moving to the smaller room. She was very clear and focused on “What is best for you.. do what is best for you…Don’t do anything to please your sister”. She worked hard to repeatedly give me that guidance and repeated it several times. I am so grateful. 

My entire family debated this last night, we all feeling the smaller room is a positive thing, and recognize my sister may reject it. It should be a no brainer.  Initially I thought just throw it out there, and if she agrees  then do it, if she disagrees, don’t. I am OK with the current situation and it is work to move her (not much they will do it for us). I am coming to the view point of, doing so saves money in long run and addresses some of the legitimate concern she has raised. It is the right thing to do.

I used the phrasing suggested here and sent her a BIFF email this am. It feels so much better than facing another call on the weekend. I am going to keep repeating “the short phrase” to myself over and over, so I get it and it rolls off my tongue. And then will stick to it with her.

There was an event  that she blamed me for a few years ago and she kept rehashing. I recall “Explaining” what had happened over and over and getting no where (But frustrated) when she would bring it up. I then wrote down a validating BIFF statement and memorized it and just said the same thing exactly same way over and over. Weirdly after the 4th time of being a broken record she said, “why didn’t you tell me that before” and I haven’t heard about it since. I know BIFF works, I still haven’t mastered it in the moment but I think focusing on one thing like transitioning to email is worth a shot. Fortunately she has not sent an invite or mentioned meeting this weekend, so my email preemptively addresses the phone meeting issue without “Rejecting her”.

[livednlearned]

It says so much about your integrity that in the midst of this conflict with your sister, you are able to see what might be legitimate about the concerns she raised.  

Plus, your mom saying those words is priceless. It must've felt so nice to hear how she feels and that she's giving you permission to do what's right for you.

Something fascinating I read here years ago is that the abandonment or rejection that pwBPD feel is actually an abandonment of their own self. Something interrupted the development of a real self so they are functioning with a false self that repeatedly abandons them.

It just means that the abandonment is happening consistently. It is not necessarily a cause and effect with what we do, externally. It just seems to be about what we do or don't do because the blame is often fixed outwardly with little to no relenting. Validation, SET, not JADE-ing -- these are all skills to avoid enflaming the core feelings of being deficient but taking responsibility for those painful feelings and realizing they originate from within lays squarely with the pwBPD.

It is not easy to keep that in mind when I'm in the heat of the moment with pwBPD but it does help depersonalize the behaviors to an extent. Like you, I try to contain behaviors that are counter productive while also trying to hear if there is something legitimate to address. It's not easy.

[Mommydoc]

Thanks Livednlearned, I am definitely working to depersonalize it and have empathy for the turmoil she lives with. It helps!

Well her reaction to my BIFF email re larger room went on through the day. Fortunately, I had my husband screening my personal email.
Email # 1:

My goals for us continue to be transparency, honesty, respect and harmony. I sincerely have done that to the best of my knowledge.We both have an obligation to work with each other. While I have never been asked, I have never said “No” to The facility . I appreciate many things about The facility including that they saved her life multiple times. Currently, my biggest concern for mom at the facility  is that she needs 24/7 compassionate care, which I don’t think she is getting in the Memory unit at the facility. I have provided the reasons for my concerns. You dismissed them and in some cases even blamed me. I would welcome and appreciate the opportunity to see that my concerns aren’t legitimate and / or that there are solutions. As a starting point I asked you to also ask The Director to send us the records, particularly since you don’t have them either. I have only received the 2021 ledger. I also want copies of the service/ lease contracts. How do we know we are being billed correctly or that the services are being provided without this information. Will you please send me the income tax returns for the last five years. We have an obligation to work with each other. It will be best if we can do so with honesty, respect, transparency and harmony. I love you. I am frustrated and am feeling like I am not being treated with the respect I deserve. I hope that will change.

Lots of good here: she put in writing that she never said no, and even said they had saved moms life multiple times. I tell her that frequently and she has never acknowledged, and to put that in writing!   .  She signed it love ( I always do and it is sincere, but she hasn’t in a long time) but first time she has in a long time. I think of Compassionate Care as both hospice and palliative care. Mom has been receiving palliative care for the last 2 + years until last month. Hospice  is a circular conversation with her “she should be in hospice”. Care team, doctor and I have explained that mom doesn’t qualify. She never “ understands”. She seems to think facilities deliver compassionate care, it is actually health care teams and they  provide it any facility, and in home settings. Compassionate care is not “the facility”   In my prior email I encouraged her to discuss hospice with the new doctor, who unfortunately is out with an injury right now.

But that wasn’t it, over next few hours two more emails

I have and continue to advocate that mom should be in the smallest room available.

I immediately called the director to confirm the new room. Another victory! Then
Email #3

That doesn’t mean that I approve that she should stay in the memory unit. I do not give approval for a facility that won’t share important information with me.

My husband thinks it is funny, if I wasn’t in the middle of it, I might also. She is all over the place! But at end of day, I feel pretty good about it.  I did get copies of the lease agreements and am considering sending them to her, as well as connecting her with the accountant to get tax returns. The trust attorney referred me to an Elder Law Attorney who finally called me back today. She has no availability until July, but offered to have me work with an associate underneath her who could meet with me early next week. Trust attorney has emphasized that she has = responsibility and just because she has not participated in the finances doesn’t mean it is my job to provide all of this to her. But I am trying to demonstrate no intent to withhold  information and a willingness to share pertinent information.

Even though she is explicitly stating she never said no to the facility, she did say she supports the smaller room while expressing disapproval for the memory unit.  She doesn’t need to agree to the memory unit ( medical decision) but is saying she supports the smaller room (financial decision). If we had the conversation verbally, she would deny or change her mind or not remember, etc… but I have the whole email string in writing! Most of all I don’t have to sit around in dread of an unproductive phone meeting and can enjoy my weekend. Very happy with how this went.

[Methuen]

Is it just me, or is sis making you do all the work she demands, but which she should be doing herself?  Case in point:

As a starting point I asked you to also ask The Director to send us the records, particularly since you don’t have them either. I have only received the 2021 ledger. I also want copies of the service/ lease contracts. How do we know we are being billed correctly or that the services are being provided without this information.

So if I want information, I go get it myself.  Mommydoc, I’m guessing that when you need information, you do the research needed to get that info.  What strikes me in the above quote is your sisters sense of entitlement to demand you to do her work for her.

Is there a reason she can’t ask the facility for this info herself?

I wonder if she has learned that you will do almost anything to try to keep the peace?  Maybe that’s not fair  and I’m misreading, but her language and tone really jumped out at me.

Another quote that jumped out at me is this:

Patricia Evans, author of books on verbal abuse, writes about using the word Stop or NNo when someone is engaged in verbal abuse, and repeating it over and over until the person stops.

.

This really resonated with me.  I can recall my dear father (who had a saint’s patience) resorting to this a few times in his life.  With good success.  It works.  In a tone uncharacteristic of him, he would say “that’s enough ______(name), and it ended.  This point from LnL was a good one for me to remember.  

I agree with NW and others who say there is nothing you can do to avoid the conflict with her.  pwBPD must stir up chaos because of the toxic issues at their core.  Our job is to recognize they can have their toxic feelings but we don’t have to own them as well, and don’t need to feel responsible for them. Easier said than done.  It’s messy.  But once we figure out how to do that, I am hoping  there might be light at the end of the tunnel.  Also, whatever toxic vomit they dump on us, we will live to see another day.

Lastly, has your mom been happy in the  larger room?  Was it excessive?  Could she afford it? I’m guessing your generous desire to provide her comfortable surroundings which were within her budget is the reason she chose you as HC POA. Is the real reason to  move her to a smaller room because she wants it, or because your sister wants it, or some other reason? It seems that your mom is  sound enough to  recognize what is going on here.  Her response to ask you “what is best for you?” Is truly remarkable.  

You are doing amazing at navigating this.  Cheering you on!

[Notwendy]

I think you did well- in your actions and I also would not respond to this email with anything more than a few words. " Thanks, she will be in room 123 next week".

I also felt angry reading the letter- it sounded demanding.

transparency, honesty, respect and harmony. I sincerely have done that to the best of my knowledge.


BS- this communication isn't any of these. But I also think she's trying to save face and act as if she has equal authority and background and so, she can't just say "Ok great, Mom will be in the other room".

Also, the facts are that your mother didn't qualify for the type of care/facility she says she wants. It sounds more like "mother has a broken toe- I demand she gets a bed in the ICU!" . IMHO that is her posturing. I'd ignore it.

The facts are- your mother put you in charge of these decisions for a reason. Firstly, she knows the two of you and that you are reliable. Second- you have the medical background to understand what she needs, and the ability to communicate with the facility clearly and be reasonable.

I think I'd refer her to an accountant or attorney for these records she wants and the time and bill paid out of your mother's estate so your sister has some incentive to not over use the legal system and the costs. If she's concerned about her inheritance- she needs to also know that any fees for what she demands is going to also affect that. Without this, there'd be no limits to her.

I agree with Methuen that she's demanding you do this work for her. If she wants something, let her get it herself. It may be better to have all these documents in the hands of a lawyer/accountant and let her discuss them with that person.

I'd consult a lawyer first on how to respond because it's hard to know what she can do with this but I think it's a good idea to not be in the position of your sister demanding you obtain information for her.

"Hi Sis. I see you have concerns about the rent and charges for several years back. Here is the contact information for the accountant who is handling mother's funds and expenses. Please contact them for the information you wish and for any questions about their fees"

[Methuen]

I think I'd refer her to an accountant or attorney for these records she wants and the time and bill paid out of your mother's estate so your sister has some incentive to not over use the legal system and the costs. If she's concerned about her inheritance- she needs to also know that any fees for what she demands is going to also affect that. Without this, there'd be no limits to her.

She’s trying to punish you. She is also demanding you run around and do all kinds of tasks for her, and is creating all kinds of chaos.   This is brilliant in its simplicity and effectiveness.  

[zachira]

Notwendy's idea is indeed brilliant and doing this could help to reduce problems with the estate. The sooner the better that your sister has some idea of how much of the inheritance could be eaten up by attorney, acountant, and other fees.

[Riv3rW0lf]

If she's concerned about her inheritance- she needs to also know that any fees for what she demands is going to also affect that. Without this, there'd be no limits to her.

That's a great idea to remind her of natural consequences as well.

It pains me, how little your sister actually cares for your mother. Your mother is lucky she has you looking out for her.

[Mommydoc]

I wonder if she has learned that you will do almost anything to try to keep the peace?  Maybe that’s not fair  and I’m misreading, but her language and tone really jumped out at me.

It’s totally fair Methuen. My part in this is always trying to please my parents by being the good big sister and “ taking care of her” and “soothing her”, responding to her requests. I have done everything for my parents for the last decade and it has been a lot. She is unreliable and sometimes doesn’t follow through on things.  Last year she went through a similar set of demands for lots of records and documents. At the time the Trust Attorney advised I should provide them to her to demonstrate collaboration. It was a lot of work, and she never acknowledged receipt. I don’t believe she read any of the documents, as she never asked a single question. When she was yelling at me last week, I told her I had sent her the records and her response was all you sent me was a spreadsheet. Lol. This time, it has been different. I keep referring her to the Director, who has not provided the documents to her. I did get copies of the lease documents but have not passed them on. The trust attorney pointed out that that my responsibility is to the trust not to my sister and if she has questions she has a fiduciary obligation to be more involved ( but she also thought I need my own attorney to protect myself from my sister). So all of you are right. I have been doing more than my share and I don’t owe my sister anything. What I do going forward will be in advocacy for my mom and to protect myself, if she moves forward with her allegations against me. One of the problems is the health care team and facility Director get intimidated by her and don’t respond or reply to her after a certain point, and it circles back to me.

Patricia Evans, author of books on verbal abuse, writes about using the word Stop or NNo when someone is engaged in verbal abuse, and repeating it over and over until the person stops.

Your dad sounds like my dad.  I have no problem doing this at work, but it is a good reminder with my sister. I  am done talking to her for a long time. It’s going to be email. Much easier for me to choose what to respond to and what to ignore. At this point, it also helps document my reasonableness and her disordered thinking, if things get worse.

 

I'd consult a lawyer first on how to respond because it's hard to know what she can do with this but I think it's a good idea to not be in the position of your sister demanding you obtain information for her.

Our accountant doesn’t handle anything more than the returns, as I do all the bills, but I like the idea of providing all the documents to an attorney to make decisions on what and how to respond to her. Currently, the property manager is playing an important role on the condo as an intermediary and the trust advisor and an elder law attorney can serve a similar role to interact with her. Unfortunately, the elder law attorney who my trust attorney recommended didn’t have much availability until June which feels too long. I finally talked to her yesterday and she offered to have me meet with an associate attorney in her office next week. She agreed to  oversee the case with him and be available if it escalates.

Thank you all for the advice and feedback. Limiting my contact to  email and getting others to engage with her feels more manageable.

I have already confirmed the new room and she will move this week. The inquiry occurred because of my sisters concerns around cost, but it is a great opportunity because of the significant savings and no negative impact for mom. I feel so blessed that my mom was able to articulate her clear support and guidance.

[Notwendy]

My part in this is always trying to please my parents by being the good big sister and “ taking care of her” and “soothing her”, responding to her requests.

I picked that up from the tone of her letter- and her sense of entitlement. I don't know what your sister has done in terms of her own education/work choices but it seems that you also have taken on a role of "equalizing" her with you. It's my own family dynamics that make me wonder this.

I don't judge anyone's choice of vocation- all are valuable, but each has its own area of expertise. If a sibling has a particular area of expertise and is helping parents, I'd defer to them for these decisions. It doesn't make me less. If a sibling was a car mechanic, I'd let them work on their car. If they had a medical background, I'd defer to their opinion on a parent's care plan. To your sister, I think it's being considered equal in everything but she doesn't have a medical background and so can not make decisions with the same understanding as you can.

This idea of "harmony" that your sister is talking about is when each sibling contributes their own skills, not insisting on being equal experts in everything. However, it takes a solid sense of self to be able to say " I don't know as much about that area, but I do know a lot about my job".

"I could take your sentence and write it this way: My part in this is always trying to please my parents by being the good daughter and “ taking care of Mother” and “soothing her”, responding to her requests"

One of the ways we did this was to "normalize" BPD mother by endowing the appearance of competence. I understand it hurts her self esteem to be thought of otherwise. However, this enabling her also increased her incompetence. We learn by doing things. If we do everything for her, then she doesn't learn.

This ranges from her asking me to bake something as a teen for a school function and then she brings it to school- everyone assumes she baked them, to errands and other tasks. Most household tasks were done for her. BPD mother is very intelligent, but her BPD emotions get in the way of her accomplishing things, and so a part of our roles were to protect her self esteem.

You and your sister are "equals" in the sense of value, as humans, and to your parents. However, you are not equals in terms of expertise in medicine. This is just how it is in every profession/job. One doesn't ask a doctor to repair a car, or a lawyer to practice medicine. Yet it seems you are expected to soothe your sister by pretending she is an equal to you in the decisions about your mother.


My thought when reading her email was that it was smoke and mirrors. I was thinking she didn't know what she was talking about, yet the expectation was to respond to her as if she did. Since you have done the work of arranging care for your mother- you know the system, how a person qualifies, and what resources are there. Your sister does not. While you still need to communicate respectfully with her, I don't think you need to explain yourself and your decisions as much. While you don't want to rock the boat with her over this, I think this feeling of obligation may be something to consider.

[Mommydoc]

You and your sister are "equals" in the sense of value, as humans, and to your parents. However, you are not equals in terms of expertise in medicine…. Yet it seems you are expected to soothe your sister by pretending she is an equal to you in the decisions about your mother. …I was thinking she didn't know what she was talking about, yet the expectation was to respond to her as if she did. Since you have done the work of arranging care for your mother- you know the system, how a person qualifies, and what resources are there. Your sister does not. While you still need to communicate respectfully with her, I don't think you need to explain yourself and your decisions as much. While you don't want to rock the boat with her over this, I think this feeling of obligation may be something to consider.

Thank you Notwendy. You hit on something. In the email I shared she didn’t specifically say “treat me as an equal”, but she is constantly telling me she is my equal, I am not better than her, she is 50% decision maker, I don’t treat her with the respect she deserves, it goes on. It is amazing that you zeroed on that point. I have been trying to figure out what my sisters “Childhood trauma” was. I think I am the trauma. Even though my parents love/loved her and were nurturing kind  parents, I make up that she never felt she was equally loved by them, even though I believe she was. It’s speculative on my part. I was very close to my dad, but she had a volatile relationship with him. In his final years, when he and my mom moved to be close to me so I could help them, instead of  close to her, this may have represented an abandonment by my father. Her jealousy of me intensified. Awarding HC POA to me was the logical thing as you mentioned,  but for her it was another wound, and it made her not my equal.  I have always thought it must be hard to be so far away and been empathetic to that circumstance. I am now coming to realize now her behavior is related to intense anger towards me; it id probably anger towards my parents that she can’t express. I represent for her the respect/relationship she wanted from my parents. I think she thinks that I took that from her.

I am moving to very low contact with her. I am going to stop explaining anything to her and am going to refer her to others. I will provide very brief email BIFF updates, while politely redirecting her to others when she makes requests. I am hoping to meet with the attorney and that they can take on management of any document requests. This is just what I need to do for me right now. It might help her too as having asynchronous communication could de-escalate things a notch. Either way, she needs to self soothe. I can’t “divorce” my sister (yet) given the legal responsibilities we share, but I can pull back my communication and the effort and energy I put towards her. Your suggestion to let go of my sense of obligation to her is good.

Today I went to mass with my mom and then spent most of the day fixing up her new room. The staff had moved her clothes and furniture, but it was mostly piles and completely disorganized . I rehung all of her things on the wall and organized her room, closet and bathroom. I forgot how tiring it is, but I want it to feel as close to her old room and as comforting as possible. She seems fine and is adjusting well, which is the most important thing.

[Methuen]

Good to hear your mom has transitioned to the new room, and is taking it in stride.  This is such great news, and I am very happy for you.  Some people take nothing in stride, and make things even more difficult than the worse case scenario we can imagine...we all know who those people are.  At least your mom isn't like that.

I have been trying to figure out what my sisters “Childhood trauma” was. I think I am the trauma.

Maybe, but I doubt it.  I have no expertise.  But from all my reading, there is usually deeper trauma than what you are thinking here.  Regardless, it doesn't matter what is at the root of it, because she is never going to share it with you, and in the end, "what her childhood trauma was" at this point is irrelevant to how she behaves with you.  Whatever the trauma was leads to shame, and that deep shame will likely prevent her from seeking professional help.  

The risk in you thinking "you are the trauma" is that you somehow try to make it up to her.  And you are probably not the trauma.

My mom grew up in an impoverished immigrant family, with her dad being mentally ill and abusing every one of his 7 children emotionally and physically, and the 6 girls sexually.  Then when my mom was 13 and her mother was diagnosed with cancer, my mom had to stay home from school for 6 months to nurse her dying mother.  After she died, my mom and the last 2 siblings who were still living at home, were left alone with their abusive father.  While  my mom was unwilling to ever see a counsellor much less a psychiatrist in her adult life, I'm pretty confident that some of that led to her uBPD.  When my dad died 17 years ago, my mom's BPD was triggered again (abandonment via death), and as an only child, I defaulted to being the next in line for my mom to dump her toxic vomit on when she needed to.  This is just my experience which is only one anecdote, and wholly unscientific. I have done a lot of reading, and I would guess that there is more to your sister's story that perhaps you don't know about.  I would push the thought that "you are probably the trauma" right out of your mind.  It's just not going to be helpful in any way or to any one.  Whatever your sister's trauma was, she is going to have to be the one to do the work on herself.  Going down the road of thinking and believing that you are the trauma is likely a road of potholes and landmines.  I would not go down that road.  You are not responsible for her behavior, whatever your sibling history might be.

Even though my parents love/loved her and were nurturing kind  parents, I make up that she never felt she was equally loved by them, even though I believe she was. It’s speculative on my part. I was very close to my dad, but she had a volatile relationship with him. In his final years, when he and my mom moved to be close to me so I could help them, instead of  close to her, this may have represented an abandonment by my father. Her jealousy of me intensified. Awarding HC POA to me was the logical thing as you mentioned,  but for her it was another wound, and it made her not my equal...I represent for her the respect/relationship she wanted from my parents. I think she thinks that I took that from her.

This all makes logical sense.  Others here may have more to say or add, or disagree with me, but I still have my doubts that this would be enough to lead to BPD.  I just don't think you need to go down this road which could lead to self-blame.  

You are a tremendously caring individual Mommydoc.  You have done everything you can to do your best for your parents in their sunset years, and for your mom at this stage.  Your career in medicine defines you as a helping and caring person.  You have also done your best to appease your sister.  It is my suspicion that when we try to appease people with distorted world views and dysfunctional relationship skills, we are actually inadvertently fanning the flames and adding to drama, even though that is not our intention (our intention being to keep the peace).  It's like we fall into the trap.  Most of us here are on the journey to release ourselves from the trap (not unlike the wild animal that chews off it's leg to free itself from a leg-hold trap).

In my relationship with my mom, the harder I tried to be the perfect daughter to her and supply all of her needs (which she demanded), the worse her behavior to me became.  It was a direct relationship.  Since I have returned to work from retirement and have gone LC, my life is  better.  I also almost never see her without my H at my side, since she doesn't attack me when someone else is present to witness it.

I think you are doing amazing.  We are all learning from your shares along side of you, and cheering you on.

[Riv3rW0lf]

My therapist mentioned that there isn't always a history of trauma with BPD. Sometimes there is, but not always. It could be as "simple" as hypersensitivity mixed with neglect or bullying in school... Small trauma as opposed to big ones. But small trauma can be as damaging as big traumas when befallen someone who is hypersensitive...

As for being treated differently... Even if it was the case, it wouldn't be your fault and your sister has a responsibility to grow out of it. My husband is in this situation... His mother and father are clearly more proud and closer to his brother than him. He was the black sheep...hearing his mother talks, she is always going on about how his brother is so nice and calm... The second I say something positive about my husband, she will say her other son is like that too, as if she cannot imagine my husband could be anything good that his brother isn't... It is deeply sad... Yet my husband, as a reaction : detached himself from his family. He doesn't seek to hurt them, he doesn't seek to hurt his brother either. As painful it can be for him, he built his life and moved on, because this is what healthy people do...

Sibbling rivalry is very common, and in almost all families I have seen, there seem to be a "favorite", one with whom parents simply have more affinities with. They don't do it on purpose, it just happens.

My best friend would die for both of her sons, yet she says she has a favorite and her husband prefers the other. It sounds dysfunctional and maybe it is, but one is closer to his mother, and the other to his father... It's personnality. In the end, she loves them both, but one of them can clearly feel she prefers the other, and same for the father, who prefers the other...

All this to say: the way she is is not your fault, you are not her trauma, you are doing the best you can and she is not your responsibility.

[Mommydoc]

Thank you Methuen and Riv3rWOlf, I guess this is  another example of me trying to take responsibility for her again by thinking I am the trauma. I also think some of it is just how she is wired. She fits the criteria for a HSP and we both have a lot of the classic oldest child/youngest child characteristics. It is just everything gets over amplified.  If there is another trauma, that she hasn’t shared with me, then  my guess is it is completely subconscious for her. She over amplifies every thing she feels is wrong and makes herself a victim. But I guess that is all just classic BPD and nothing special. I am going to let go of figuring out why.

I am  frustrated right now. She just emailed me,

I feel like we need to perform a full reconciliation of what has been billed relative to the agreements. I continue to ask for the original agreement and tax returns.  After I emailed you, I realized you said that you are signing an agreement and an addendum at the facility. You cannot do that without my approval! I will not approve it without full transparency of all agreements, thus far.

I obtained the original agreement from the Director late  last week and was going to email it to her. My parents signed the original agreement. I have only signed the agreement to move my mom into memory care ( a year ago). What I said is “I will make arrangements for moms move to the smaller unit and forward you the agreement and new addendum after I receive/sign it.” I am signing the addendum for the lower rate, after she said she supported the “smallest available” unit. I keep thanking myself for not discussing by phone and doing it by email, as if she would have said exactly the same thing on the phone, and if I proceeded, two days later she would gaslight me with “I never agreed to that.” ( just like “I was never asked” comments after 6 months of care conversations and family meetings) I have her email in writing. It’s about as clear as it gets. Given that the smaller unit was only considered because of her concerns about cost, and  I was perfectly fine with her original room, the whole thing is ridiculous.Life is too short for this. Does anyone know how long an extinction burst can last? Feeling painfully long if that is what we are in the middle of. 

At this point, I feel like I need to meet with the attorney more urgently. I want to have someone else deal with the litany of document requests.  The “full reconciliation” of billing is baseless and is the newest thing in her smoke and mirrors rants. The request for tax returns came for the first time last week. I have no problem with her receiving them, but agree not my job to provide. My therapist has suggested I wait 24 hours to respond  to any “negative” texts or emails, so I hopefully I will think have some advice from the attorney, my therapist ( perfect that I have an appointment tomorrow!) before responding. I know what to say, it’s pretty simple. I made the arrangements after your email and she is already settled and moved… ignore “reconciliation”requirement she is imposing.

I told my husband tonight I never want to talk to her again. My 25 yr old son said you love her and you have said that before. My husband corrected him and said mom has never said that. She has been just as hurt/upset many times before, but this is different. Maybe I will change my mind, I reserve that right, but I really feel done with her. I will do what I need to do to care for and protect my mom, but I  don’t need her to do that. She has no grounds legally.

I was having a lot of fun with my son and husband making home made pizza in our new pizza oven and wish I had never opened that email in the middle of it. I know I am and continue to act in good faith, but I am so done with the harassment and abuse. Thanks for listening.

the way she is is not your fault, you are not her trauma, you are doing the best you can and she is not your responsibility.

That means a lot and is deeply appreciated. I need to paste that on my mirror and recite it to myself and include it in my daily meditation.

[Methuen]

I feel like we need to perform a full reconciliation of what has been billed relative to the agreements. I continue to ask for the original agreement and tax returns.  After I emailed you, I realized you said that you are signing an agreement and an addendum at the facility. You cannot do that without my approval! I will not approve it without full transparency of all agreements, thus far.

Wow. She's in a major dysregulation.  

The advice of your T to not reply for at least 24 hr is excellent advice. Maybe 48-72 hrs to give you time to connect with your attorney?  Responding to her now would only fan the flames, as she sounds irrational, and you aren't feeling too great either.  Since the agreement you signed for the smaller room was because she requested the smaller room, telling you in this language that you cannot do that without her approval doesn't even make sense.  Or am I not understanding this fully?  She's not sounding rational, but she is sounding very emotional.  When my mom gets in one of these dysregulations, it takes her days or weeks to get back to her[emotional] normal, which is still one or more standard deviations away from most people's "normal".  These emotional dysregulations put them off the charts IMHO.

In my experience, the extinction burst didn't stop until I pulled the plug (and went back to work making myself unavailable to her).  My H had a similar situation as you with his sister.  H's sister and your sister sound like clones of each other.  The stress she brought into our lives can't be measured.  I think the extinction burst doesn't stop until we either say it has to stop, or take action to make it stop (because they can't stop themselves).

In a couple of earlier posts on this thread, someone mentioned the need to use the word "stop".  Maybe the time is coming nigh.

Boundary time? (the "stop")

In a few days:

"I am confused by your email".  You said you wanted mom in a smaller room.  We agreed on that, and I signed the papers for it.  Now you have emailed saying that I cannot sign an agreement without your approval.  But what I signed was to move mom to the smaller room which was your request, so I am very confused.

My attention to mom's care these years in the facility has been done with my best intentions in mom's best interests, because I love her, and because it is my responsibility to see she has appropriate care.  As a physician, I have been diligent in working to assure mom's care is appropriate to her needs, and the care level she deserves. I believe we both want the best for mom. I am sorry that you can't see that I have been doing my best for mom.  Mom has been happy where she is.  Her doctor's have been happy with her care.  I have been happy with the care I have seen mom receiving in the facility.  The only person who is not happy is you, and I do not understand why not, when mom is happy.  You wanted her moved to the smallest available room.  That is what I signed for.

This conflict between us needs to stop.  I am not participating any more.  

In future, you can contact the facility for any documents you want copies of.  

I love you sis.  But the recent telephone conversations and emails aren't working. If your current approach is the only way forward that you see possible, please contact my attorney at ______ for future communication. Love,  Mommydoc."

Maybe, just maybe, when you say "stop", and put up the boundary, she backpedals.  Start making her do her own work (getting the files and billings from the facility).  She's probably not going to ever do that work, much less go through all the information.  She might even say something like "that's not what I meant" when you call her on accusing you of signing the very agreements that she demanded (ie smaller room). The "stop" might just put the brakes on her behavior.  When she reads her own words that she wanted "mom moved to the smallest available room", she might start to think more about her image and the optics.

In the event this doesn't bring desired results, well let her tango with your attorney.  It doesn't sound like she has much of a case, and does she even have the finances?  

Perhaps calling her bluff might put the brakes on the extinction burst.  She gets to chose to either back off and preserve a relationship with you, or pursue her demands through an attorney and risk her relationship with you, as well as financial costs, and an investment of a lot of time and work with the attorney.  Her choice.

This is just one idea.  Others may have different ideas.  

You will get through this.  This too will eventually come to an end.  We prescribe much needed "self care" for you Mommydoc.  

[Notwendy]

First, I agree with the others. You are not her trauma. The fact that your parents chose you isn't trauma. I have seen this in other families- where a family member has medical background and the family relies on them to "take the lead" when a relative needs care. It makes sense and the other members don't feel their sense of self is threatened if this happens- because they have a sense of self. I recall when my father was in the hospital, a relative who is a PA went to see him and I was very appreciative to talk to that relative.  Having BPD mother tell me what is going on was hard to make sense of because she isn't always truthful and it's hard to know what to believe. I didn't feel "threatened" of my place in the family because of this. He was there and he knew what was going on and for that, I was grateful.

If there is trauma for your sister (and I agree with the others that this isn't always a cause) it would have been far worse and earlier on. If this happens though, other experiences are filtered through it. Each day we process a lot of information but if a person has distorted thinking, they filter this through their distorted thinking. For instance- when I visited my mother and did a lot of nice things for me, the one thing I didn't do is what she recalls.

You didn't cause this, and you can not fix it. Even if you were the most trained therapist in the country- she's not your client. This is not your responsibility to fix.

I agree with the others to not respond right away and also that it's not possible to reason with illogical people. Part of her thinking fits the Karpman triangle. She feels like a victim and you seem to be the perpetrator.

"You can not do this without my approval". But you can, I think? Doesn't your medical POA enable you to do this?

Something has her fired up and it's not you. I suspect money issues, and also suspect possibly some pressure from her husband. It seems this situation has escalated since your mother didn't qualify for Hospice. But she doesn't qualify for that and that isn't your decision. She seems to be insisting on another type of care situation. Perhaps it would help to have someone in charge of the decision speak to her directly and tell her that your mother doesn't qualify for what she wants but I also agree that consulting a lawyer before you communicate with her, to protect yourself is the first thing to do.

[Notwendy]

I agree with Methuen- turn the communication over to someone else and let her do her own "work" to find out what she wants to know.

One way my mother feels a sense of power and control is to have other people do things for her, and then, she's very critical of what they do. Sometimes the action is something small but it's not the action that is the main point- it's her control. Once she screamed at me for taking the trash out because she didn't want me to do it, she wanted someone else to do it. I assumed what she wanted was the trash to be taken out. What she actually wanted was the exchange of telling this person to do something for her.

Somewhere your sister got the sense that she's "less than" you- but you didn't do it. One way for her to compensate is to act powerful in relation to you. "you can not do this without my approval" sorry Sis, but you can.

But her sense of feeling like she does has nothing to do with you. You can't fix it by trying to diminish your role in relation to her, as you have tried this- and this "partnership" arrangement isn't working because it doesn't change her thinking.

[livednlearned]

I have been trying to figure out what my sisters “Childhood trauma” was. I think I am the trauma.

I completely get this Mommydoc. When you have a BPD sibling, this describes how it feels. Or, as others have said, how it is felt by the BPD sibling. If my BPD sibling had capacity for self-reflection, I think he would say I ruined his life. When the real problem is that he was prewired with hypersensitivities that were chronically invalidated. Things that rolled off me were excruciating for him. I suspect watching me go through life with a sense of ease added salt to the wound of his own difficult being.

What I would write in response to your sister is simply, "I'm confused. Do you want mom moved back to her original room?"

And leave it at that.

Less is more.

[Riv3rW0lf]

What I would write in response to your sister is simply, "I'm confused. Do you want mom moved back to her original room?"

And leave it at that.

Less is more.

This is a good idea and a good way to maybe de-escalate the situation. Although it could be taken as passive aggressive too. But in all honesty, no matter the reply : nothing will prevent her from escalating and trying to make drama out of it.

I am starting to see that with BPD, the only right move and right answer, is the one that respects our values.

Complete emotional disengagement is ideal, but rarely possible.

Sending you tons of support Mommydoc... Don't lose yourself on all this. Hold on to your values and stay true to yourself.

[livednlearned]

Sometimes, in addition to responding in ways that align with our values, it's also important to create a paper trail 

Your sister is suggesting that you did something without her approval, even though she's a primary driver for moving your mom to the smaller room.

It's ok to highlight the narrative as you see it because it makes it easier for third-party professionals to follow.

[Notwendy]

This reminds me a bit of when my father got ill. I didn't understand BPD at the time. I had seen what some of my friends had arranged with their elderly parents. We even toured some retirement centers together to see if our parents would like them. My friends had also made arrangements to help with finances and take parents to the doctor and I followed that lead.

I had already accompanied my father to some of his medical visits to help him keep track of what he needed to do.  He was managing his health well until the recent illness. One of the ways he "normalized" BPD mother was to maintain she was capable of being his caregiver. I knew she was not, and brought this up with his doctor. My intent was not to "expose" her but to see what kind of home care might be available for him, but my father got angry at this.

I then asked to have my name on one of their bank accounts in case they needed assistance with paying bills. Dad had been doing all of this. BPD mother has no clue about how to manage money. I had no interest their money- but I did want it to be there for their needs and didn't know what BPD mother would do with it. Well this didn't go well with her. She then started telling people that I "forced her to go to the bank" implying I was after their money.

Not knowing about BPD, I did react- this time, it was my integrity on the line. So I wrote an email to my father telling him I would stay out of their personal affairs and to please choose someone they trusted more than me to help with them.

Well BPD mother got ahold of this ( she has access to his email ) and it just blew up. It became the pivotal email that BPD mother used to prove I had "abandoned" my parents and paint me black. In time, she disowned me. Looking back, I realize this was one of the first boundaries I had with them. I usually complied with what she wanted. But the twisting of my intentions was personal, and I didn't want to be accused of anything to do with their money.

So, while I still think involving a professional ( attorney/accountant ) as the go to person for your sister is a wise thing to do ( because of the drama with you)- and that it is a logical decision- don't expect your sister's reaction to be logical. The kind of drama between you, to her, is a part of the relationship. For my family, the drama triangle seemed to be the way we related. BPD mother sees things from victim perspective- and my father was the rescuer to her. Even when we try to be helpful- she sees it in a negative way- and so was asking them to choose someone they trusted more than me.

So back to acting on your values. If I feel I am acting on my own values, how she reacts doesn't change that. If I had anything to do with my mother's finances, I would also arrange professional back up to protect myself from her accusations- this is part of self care. You may be as ethical and logical with your actions, but it's possible your sister can't see it- so yes, protect yourself.