Friend with a Personality Disorder

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have been friends with a woman for years who I am sure has a personality disorder (not BPD or NPD). She often talks about me being her only friend. It seems every time I grow as person as I have this past year by going no contact and low contact with certain family members, that I let go of certain friendships because I have outgrown these friendships. I feel I have enabled this friend by being kind to her about all the problems she creates for herself with her rigid perfectionistic standards and demands to be in control. I have told her recently a couple of times she really needs to see a mental health professional, and of course, she did not respond. She did not call me for a few weeks, and now is calling me again. I have not called her back, as I feel that I am enabling her, and I am tired of the one sided nature of the relationship when it comes to being open to listening to other points of views that do not agree with her rigid beliefs which she tries to force on everyone. She has been generous and kind to me many times, and we do have many interests in common. It is just now, I do not want to continue to enable her behaviors and let it go. I would like to tell her I want a break from the friendship until she is making progress in treatment with her obsessions and compulsions, which she admits she has. Your thoughts and advice, and experiences with similar situations?

[zachira]

I have been friends with a woman for years who I am sure has a personality disorder (not BPD or NPD). She often talks about me being her only friend. It seems every time I grow as person as I have this past year by going no contact and low contact with certain family members, that I let go of certain friendships because I have outgrown these friendships. I feel I have enabled this friend by being kind to her about all the problems she creates for herself with her rigid perfectionistic standards and demands to be in control. I have told her recently a couple of times she really needs to see a mental health professional, and of course, she did not respond. She did not call me for a few weeks, and now is calling me again. I have not called her back, as I feel that I am enabling her, and I am tired of the one sided nature of the relationship when it comes to being open to listening to other points of views that do not agree with her rigid beliefs which she tries to force on everyone. She has been generous and kind to me many times, and we do have many interests in common. It is just now, I do not want to continue to enable her behaviors and let it go. I would like to tell her I want a break from the friendship until she is making progress in treatment with her obsessions and compulsions, which she admits she has. Your thoughts and advice, and experiences with similar situations?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Friendship ... This is a topic I'm not sure I have much help to give, and can only talk from my experience, and what little wisdom I've learned from it, the things that seem to work with me anyway.

I moved a lot around and I never had real intimate friendships. On top of that, because I didn't trust my mother, I always found it very hard to trust my female friends and would hang with boys or men, which resulted in sexual tension blurring the picture.

My first real friend I made 10 years ago, and we are still friends. We share a common trauma, and found, in each others, what we were looking for : a proximity of acceptance, but we don't tell each other how to do things.

I listen to her, to her thoughts. I provide emotional support and I provide only guidance when asked for it, which most of the time is not asked of me. And she does the same. She tells me when she sees me being treated unfairly, for example, and she provides support, she props me up, but she doesn't really tell me what I do wrong.

Now... Is it a real, honest way to be? I don't agree with a LOT of things she did and does. I see the dynamic of her family, and I see she hurt one of her boys, unwillingly for many years. I know a lot of things she did out of pain, that truly hurt people who love her, but the way I see it : it is not my place to call her out, because this is not what this friendship is for, for me...

With this specific friend, we share our emotional turmoil, our roads in life, without judging. I am there to provide a mirror of empathy, and I do not try to guide her, or push toward one direction or the other, I listen... And she does the same with me.

I feel I made more real friends doing this, over the years.

But it all depends on what friendship means for someone... I still contact friends I made many moons ago, and we changed, but I still sometimes connect. Some friends are for a beer or two, to play a board game, to watch a movie... I'm not close with all of them, but it's nice, sometimes, to just relax and enjoy a board game. I don't know much about their inner life struggle, and I don't feel like I need to, to call them my friends...

My friends all have a different purpose for me, they fill different needs, and I also fill some needs they have that others cannot fill. And it is enough... I don't talk about my inner life struggles with many of them either, just the one I mentioned earlier actually. She is the only one I trust with it.

I don't know if that helped or not...

I made peace with my existential loneliness and I now accept, more consciously, that it is ok to have friends I don't agree with, or with whom I am very different. Unless they start abusing me, I don't end a friendship, even if I might have outgrown it... I will still check in once in a while, just because... They are still walking too, and our roads might reconnect at some point, on other points... If that makes any sense.

[zachira]

Riv3rW0lf,
Thank you for sharing about your experiences with friendships. I agree with you that there are different kinds of friendships. When we come from a highly dysfunctional family, we often make dysfunctional friendships. I am finally conquering my problems with emotional dysregulation, and have tended to attract friends who are struggling with emotional dysregulation as well. My healthier friends are more into keeping the emotions at a healthy level which allows us to connect instead of exhausting each other emotionally. I am now understanding why so many people found me too emotionally overwhelming to be around. I know how much it hurts to be rejected, and I don't really want to hurt this friend. I have been slowly enforcing healthier boundaries with her, which I wish had done since the beginning. I have called her, left a message, letting her know I am busy and not available to talk for a couple of weeks. I am finding her obsesssions and compulsions to be too much, and feel a need to stop her when she starts. I am not sure how much longer the friendship will last, if we have too much contact. I like your examples about how some friendships are more limited. I would say I would like to keep her more as a fringe friend. I know people who went through terrible times, got therapy, and mostly have a healthier group of friends who have limited contact with the less healthier long time friends.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think this is a great place to start.

For us especially, with NPD/BPD mothers, we too often take responsibility for someone else's emotions and problems.

I hurt a lot of my past friends too with my emotional dysregulation, made a lot of things I am not proud of. When the friendship got too intimate, I felt like I had to sabotage it for some reasons, and I would do something to hurt them. Those were the nice friends.

The less good friends, I would get completely sucked in and try to carry them, losing myself in the process.

Now I keep a healthy distance with all my friends, if that make any sense.

I know I wouldn't hurt anyone right now, I changed a lot since that time. But I don't know ... We all have our own path to walk, and anyone who seems to want too much of my time and attention, it just set some kind of red flag, somehow?

[beatricex]

hi zachira,
Tricky question. 

I guess this is a tough one, do you tell your friend her obsessive compulsiveness is driving you away?  I am sort of surprised that your comment about her needing professional mental health help was so well received...I would have thought that would have pushed her away naturally.  But, as you describe, she needs you as her outlet, so was unphased.  If she does have a PD, you might be her "person."

I think if there is no actual abuse, and this friend is just annoying you, then it's safe to distance slowly, over time...maybe a few months?... then completly ghost.  This technique is described in any of Bill Eddy's BIFF series of books, if you're not familiar.  The thing is: if she really has a PD, you cannot just cut her off.  You have to phase her out, so she doesn't panic and cling to you.  And after you ghost, she may come back, and then you have to BIFF with her to not upset her (just be friendly and boring) and then she'll move on to someone else who she gets more of a reaction out of.

Just my thoughts, let me know what you think.

b

[lm1109]

This thread really resonates with me right now. I am currently experiencing something similar. I agree with friendships varying in different degrees. I have a best friend since middle school that I share my deep stuff with. We ebb and flow...sometimes we are very close and sometimes we grow apart a bit...but she will always be a friend. She is the closest I have to a sibling and really my last link to my "childhood" era. We grew up similarly (narc/BPD mom's, alcoholic dad's) Unfortunately...she married a narcissist. She knows it and will tell you she married someone just like her disordered mom but she refuses to leave him. I had to put up boundaries with how much ruminating or being her sounding board I can take. She has been receptive to my boundaries and so I've really been learning to just love her where she is. I no longer try to give her advice about her marriage or "fix" anything...and actually have come to understand that doing that is part of my own issues. But I've found other ways to support her like offering to keep her son overnight every once in a while so she has some time for self care. Her son doesn't have other siblings or kids to play with and my kids also have fun having him over so it's good for everyone. In the end she is and has always been overall a good friend to me and so we will always be there for each other where we can be.

I have other friends that I consider "easy" friends or family friends...the friends that get together and get our kids together and have fun...no real deepness...but the relationships are easy and fun.

I have one friend that I'm struggling with right now

When we come from a highly dysfunctional family, we often make dysfunctional friendships.

Yes! This particular friend started out as a mom friend (our son's are friends) I noticed that she seemed to have conflict with a lot of people but I disregarded the red flag. The more she shared...the more she reminded me of my Mom. I found myself tiptoeing around in conversations the way I always did with my mom(that feeling of you HAVE to agree with her or she will get mad) Recently she has shared some things about her relationship with her oldest son and I feel she is BPD. It's uncomfortable to sit and listen to her talking about her manipulating him, guilt tripping him, etc for acting his age. Recently she told me that he decided to spend memorial day with his girlfriend instead of the family(he is 23) and that they got into a fight and she slapped him and now she refers to him as the step son(he is a step son but she adopted him and had always referred to him as HER son before this ) she threw it up in his face that his real mom abandoned him for drugs, etc. She also seems to be setting him up for failure. This conversation was a wake up call for me and even being silent made me uncomfortable...as if it was somehow enabling her. To top it off I ended up having to cancel going to her daughter's grad party(me and my son were sick AND I was in excruciating pain because I ALSO had a toothache and couldn't see the dentist until that Monday) she acted annoyed and ended up getting pretty rude with me. I have shown up to literally every other bday or event she has invited me to...this is the first time I've ever cancelled and I didn't deserve the response.

I'm realizing that I attracted someone A LOT more like my Mom then I was initially admitting. I am not someone who likes confrontation..so I am really hoping I can just be "busy" and move on without any issues.

All this to say...I understand what you're going through. For me...I've come to the conclusion that some relationships are worth the effort and some are NOT! Im going to try harder at listening to my own inner guidance when I'm seeing red flags. I realize now that I only have so much energy each day and I'm not being so free with it anymore!
 

[zachira]

Thank you for your replies. I will answer you individually later when I have time to reply more fully. I have a question I would like to ask meanwhile. I feel with this friend that I am enabling her mental illness and being a flying monkey. What do you think? I never want to be a person who enables the abuse of others yet by enabling her and being a flying monkey, I feel I am doing this. Her children want nothing to do with her and she has not seen them for years. Her obsessions and compulsions come first with everybody, even with her children. When she talks about how she treated her children, I feel upset because some of her behaviors are similar to my mother's who had BPD along with obsessions and compulsions.

[Notwendy]

I think friendships are important, but it seems over time, few are for the long run.

As a teen, my friendships were very important- perhaps even more important because for me, they were a source of affirmation and genuine bonds that I could not achieve with my parents.

It seems though, that for some friends, this was less important.

Over the years, "friendships" seem to be more circumstantial, and not long term. People, and circumstances change. I have had close friends who moved, and distance changed things. I had a close friend at work who now has a new job. I don't see her as often and she is too busy to maintain the connection. I feel sad about this but I also don't want to continue to try to reach out to her when it's not reciprocated. I don't think it's personal on her part, it's that she tends to stay busy.

I have also let go of friendships with people when it's dysfunctional. One early one was a childhood friend who seemed to always have drama- with her parents, with boyfriends. I went to visit her during college and even cut my visit short with her due to the drama. It wasn't that she was a bad person or did anything mean or hurtful. It was just too much and I felt uncomfortable with it.

Another friend was self centered. Some friends and I planned a baby shower for her. At the last minute she cancelled because of something she could have done at any time, but just wanted to do it then. I realized that, the effort we made to plan a nice event for her meant a lot more to us than to her. This was not the first time. I realized that she had trivialized the friendship from the beginning.

And I as well have felt hurt when friends moved on from me for whatever reason. Now though, I have learned that this happens. People change. There's a Madea video where she talks about relationships being like parts of a tree. Some are leaves and they stick around for a season. Some are roots. I think we are fortunate if we have a few roots and also leaves. A leaf is lovely too.

Zachira- you have changed and now have noticed this friendship isn't something you wish to continue. I think we have to understand that when I friendship changes - it's not because either person is a bad person. It may be that the friendship is more of a leaf than a root. It's OK to decide it's not for you. I understand you don't want to hurt your friend, but also don't feel the relationship is good for you.

Rather than an abrupt split, or saying something that may not be helpful, you could also reduce to "medium chill" and spend less time with this person. Without input, the relationship could fade a bit.

[beatricex]

Not to hijack your thread or anything zachira, but I am in a very similar situation, except with my oldest step daughter.  She is very anti social...probably has a PD (we most certiantly think her sister, my younger step daughter is BPD).  It's hard to know who's what, but the family system is dysfunctional.

Anyway,  I recently found out through some investigative work I did there is a lawsuit against my step daughter's boyfriend who she lives with.  He bascially took his kid back from the bio grandparents (who raised the kid since birth) after the mother died when the child was 7 mos old.  The child is now 4.  I have an ethical and moral problem with just taking a child from the only family he knew (this was done a year ago when the child was 3) and not letting the child see his bio grandparents who raised him.  The lawsuit is hundreds of pages and gives all the contacts grandparents have tried to make.  My step daughter's boyfriend only started responding about 8 months ago, but for the first 6 mos after he took his boy from them, no response from him to them at all.

So my step daughter is not my "friend" but she is an adult child (my husband's) that I did not raise.  And I have a real ethical dilemna with what they're doing to this kid.  My step daughter also has two kids of her own which she shares with her ex husband.  Occasionally my husband and I get to see them.  Do you see the pickle I'm in?  Similiar to yours.

What to say...should I stop being her "friend"...I don't agree with what they're doing, but technically, they've told us nothing or mostly lies about what's going on.  My husband and I only found out the truth because I looked for and found the court documents (all public record).

I totally get the idea that I will be her "flying monkey" if I go along with any of the current shenanigans.  Big hugs to you, when kids are involved, it's really really tough to know what to do.


b

[zachira]

Appreciate your feedback and all your replies.
I am a person who appreciates people being honest with me most of the time, as long as the person is not intentionally trying to be cruel and hurtful. I have often thanked people who told me things that were hurtful, like they did not want to be friends with me, and said how much I appreciated the truth. I do not like to have to guess how people feel. I did enough of that with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys. My therapist told me a few times that of all her clients I was the one who was the most willing to look at myself. I often sense that people fear telling me the truth and when I am receptive, they really appreciate being heard.
The advice I am getting here is to slowly go no contact with the friend. What I see myself doing and fear doing, is reminding her how she has told me on various occasions how she has OCD and that I can't deal with her obsessions and compulsions anymore, will not enable her anymore, reiterate that she needs treatment, and I do not want contact with her until she is making progress in treatment. I believe that she does not have OCD and that instead, a qualified professional would diagnose her with OCPD. Her obsession with perfection has led her to be fired from jobs and work way below her ablities. I am her only long term friend. She has pretty distant relationships with her siblings and acquaintances who are friends for awhile than distance themselves from her. Due to this most likely being a personality disorder, I am anticipating the kind of responses many on PSI get when they are honest with the disordered people in their lives. I just hate lying to and manipulating people. I have caused myself plenty of grief and drama in my life when being honest with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys. I am feeling terribly guilty about either slowly getting my friend out of my life or telling her the truth.

[Notwendy]

I think ultimately, you need to decide according to what you feel is best. Your values are your boundary.

She is not likely to react well to what you say or do either way but you need to know you have been true to yourself.

While it's possible to see LC as dishonest in a way, I try to think of it in the grand scheme of things. If the person is connected to other people in your life, then NC might mean they get cut off too. Is this in the best interest of them or you? Especially if children are involved, LC may be in their better interest.

If the relationship is causing you emotional distress and you feel it's not something you can handle, then NC might be the better decision.

Best to base this decision on you, you. If you feel she needs help and want to tell her that, then you need to feel you have done the best you could for your friend. I also think I'd tell someone they needed help if I truly believe it. It may backfire but you have been true to yourself.

These are all different ways to approach this but ultimately, your choice is the one you feel you need to do.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
I think you are right that I have to be true to my values. I already told her the last two times we talked that she needed to see a mental health professional. She did not call me for several weeks after that. Beatricex is likely right that she is calling me now because I am the one (she can count on to put up with her behaviors). What does that say about me? Am I codependent? Am I a flying monkey? I am sure there are plenty of people who have told her she needs mental health treatment. The court took away her primary custody of her children whom she now has not seen for several years because they have gone no contact with her.Her grown children told her several years ago they do not want a relationship with her. I also know she was in marriage and individual couseling at two different periods in her life. She was given repeated feedback on jobs that her work was unacceptable and she would be fired if she did not improve her performance. With great difficulty, she held onto her main job and was fired from the other one. She could have asked me why she needs to see a mental health professional. I have been setting more boundaries with her over the last year or so. I hurt when she calls me because I do not like to be ignored and I do care about her and there are many things I like about her. I am going to ignore the calls for now, and maybe at some point I will tell her again she needs to see a mental health professional. I want friendships with healthy people who can emotionally reciprocate. I have wasted too much of my life on the wrong people.

[Riv3rW0lf]

What does that say about me? Am I codependent? Am I a flying monkey? I am sure there are plenty of people who have told her she needs mental health treatment.

For me, I see lots of empathy.

I do think there is a big difference between a flying monkey, who, for me, turn their head away from the abuse VS friend who are legit concern for the welfare of the 'abuser' and of their family.

I was talking about this friend of mine earlier, the one who hurt people she loved. She doesn't have a PD, but drawing from that and from me (because I was once very dysregulated and I hurt good people along the way), I can say that, in the end, abusers were, at some point, victims too. Does it make abuse ok? No... But will leaving them completely alone lower the abuse or worsen it? I don't know... But I am thinking it might worsen it. Sometimes, I think friends can change the course of things by providing an ear and empathy. But this should never be done to the cost of your own mental health. And it might not apply when there is a PD, and the need for a mental health professional.

If something is triggering you, making you feel wrong, then something probably is wrong and going against your deep values, or maybe you feel like she takes you for granted, and her long silences are some form of abuse. If the relationship is always just one way, then I also wouldn't stay. I can withstand narcissistic tendencies, because I was born into a household like that, but I think we all have limits to feeling used.

You are not her therapist. You are her friend. And I think friends are there to help us feel better, and we should make them feel better too. If a friend makes you feel worst about yourself, then I wouldn't call this friendship...

This is just my take on it anyway...

I understand wanting to make friend with people who can reciprocate empathy, and I think this is healthy, it is self-care. And the more self-care we do for ourselves, the truer we are with ourselves, the more we will attract like-minded people... I truly believe that.

[zachira]

Thank you all your replies and sharing how your friendships have changed over time and the different kinds of friends you have. I am not finding time to individually reply to everybody and I hope that is okay. I have read every post and appreciate your time and input. Notwendy is right about being true to our values. I have finally realized that this friend's obsessions and compulsions have priority over anything else. She has done so many heartless things at times to others including her children, yet at times she has been extremely kind to me. It is with the people she is closest to like her children when she had a relationship with them or potential boyfriends with whom she might end up being in a relationship that she is extremely cruel and judgmental. It seems that this is the case with many disordered people, that they are nice to those people with whom they have more superficial relationships and mistreat the people with whom they have or might have intimate relationships or close friendships. I am feeling like she has let down her hair, and now I hear about how badly she treats others. Also she now has the habit of being busy cleaning her house or doing other activities when we are talking on the phone and often goes on and on about her obsessions which is a change from the kind of phone conversations we had in the past. It is like I have become so close to her that she has no filter with me, that I now see why her children have been no contact with her for many years, why she has never had a boyfriend since being divorced despite claiming to want to remarry and why she has no close friends in the area she lives in, despite living there for most of her adult life. The last year, I have been setting more and more boundaries with her, as I have not liked how she was treating me at times or how she has tried to enforce her rigid values onto me. The lesson here is that a good relationship improves with time as we feel more connected and seen by each other, and the bad ones become worse as the person shows their true colors. If I don't set the healthy boundaries with her, than I am codependent and being a flying monkey. I know how badly flying monkeys have hurt me and I also know how some of my codependent behaviors have hurt me and enabled others. I still have lots of work to do on setting healthy boundaries with others. Thankfully my daily meditation practice is helping me to stay calm and be able to connect with healthy people like never before. Most of my life, I have been so emotionally dysregulated that I was attracted to and attractive to other emotionally dysregulated people. Now I am finding myself wanting and loving the connection with people capable of healthy connection with whom I can enjoy peaceful moments.

[lm1109]

The lesson here is that a good relationship improves with time as we feel more connected and seen by each other, and the bad ones become worse as the person shows their true colors. If I don't set the healthy boundaries with her, than I am codependent and being a flying monkey. I know how badly flying monkeys have hurt me and I also know how some of my codependent behaviors have hurt me and enabled others. I still have lots of work to do on setting healthy boundaries with others. Thankfully my daily meditation practice is helping me to stay calm and be able to connect with healthy people like never before. Most of my life, I have been so emotionally dysregulated that I was attracted to and attractive to other emotionally dysregulated people. Now I am finding myself wanting and loving the connection with people capable of healthy connection with whom I can enjoy peaceful moments.

Thank you for this! You put words to what I am feeling about this right now as well. Beautifully said! 

[zachira]

Im1109,
Glad this thread has been helpful. Thank you for participating and being willing to help others by sharing your challenges with a disordered friend.You are right: some people, we need to stay away from.
When we grow up in dysfunctional families, we often struggle with attracting or being attracted to people who are similar to our disordered family members. For me, what has been key, is to no longer crave the drama. I used to feel bored with people who seemed to have calm happy lives for the most part and did not enlist me in any of their personal dramas.

[lm1109]

I agree with this. I also noticed that I was attracted to people who put me in my familial "role." Even though I was the youngest in my family...I was still the "therapist." Everyone in my family came to me with their problems and I was used as a dumping ground(so to speak). The ONLY attention I got from my Mom was when she was using me as her therapist or (sadly) gossiping about anyone and everyone to me...even when I was extremely young! I'm just now learning (at 35) what a normal give and take relationship even looks like. I was taught that "bonding" came from commiserating and my value in a relationship was being the therapist/sounding board/rescuer. Looking back...I realize...I could not have attracted healthy relationships with this belief!

For me, what has been key, is to no longer crave the drama. I used to feel bored with people who seemed to have calm happy lives for the most part and did not enlist me in any of their personal dramas.

This is a good point! I'm realizing that in a way...other people's emotional addictions became my own emotional addictions. The Holistic Psychologist on YouTube and in her book How To Do The Work explains the family dynamics and emotional addictions REALLY well...it's been helping me a lot. It's crazy how we unconsciously repeat those family dynamics throughout life without even realizing it! 

This thread has been really eye opening for me!

[Riv3rW0lf]

When we grow up in dysfunctional families, we often struggle with attracting or being attracted to people who are similar to our disordered family members. For me, what has been key, is to no longer crave the drama. I used to feel bored with people who seemed to have calm happy lives for the most part and did not enlist me in any of their personal dramas.

*Lightbulb*

For me, it wasn't boredom, it's more that I didn't felt like we really connected and I thought maybe they didn't like me. But they did want to see me again, and I guess... Again, that I was lucky enough to end up with emotionally healthy people that showed me how to have healthy friendships.

And later on, I remember coming back from Venise with the friend I am the closest with, and saying to another friend that it had been a bit hard and that I didn't want any drama anymore...

I had forgotten about that. Then I stopped calling this friend for a while, and when we reconnected, I stayed a bit more detached emotionnally.

Again when I saw her last... It's not that there is a pressure, it's not that I feel engulfed, it's that she always has something negative to say on my husband.
And then I find myself questioning my relationshion. She sparked my last thread about it and it took me a couple weeks coming back to see my husband for who he is : imperfect, like me, and good enough, like me, and in the end perfect for me. We work through our sh*to together, and truthfully, we both change each other for the best.

So anyway... Just realized maybe I will have to set a boundary with her too not to talk about my husband with her, and not allow her to critic him either.

I am starting to realize why a lot of people have a boundary that is : I don't talk about my relationship. Even though it sometimes feels good to vent. Some people are safer than others for this too... One of my other friend will listen and then vent on her own relationship and then we always end it feeling more love for them for some reasons... She doesn't judge or critic him or push him down telling me I deserve more... The is no seed of doubt... Just healthy venting for the both of us.

Sorry I didn't mean to hijack this post, but it is a eye opener for me as well.

[Methuen]

If she does have a PD, you might be her "person.

This connected with me.  I would really like to hear more of the theory  behind this.  Is it as simple as everyone with a PD (or BPD) needs 1 primary person to "fill them up", meet their emotional needs, be their sounding board, play out their drama, or dump on?

I'm just curious about the message behind "being her person"...

I would like to "unperson" myself with my mother...

[zachira]

I have been very kind to this friend and not been as judgmental as others would be. I have spent hours listening to her. I realize I did not put up boundaries when a normal person would, thus Methuen I believe this is why I became her 'person'. In your case, you were groomed by your mother since birth to be your mother's 'person'. Being an only child, there is nobody else to be your mother's 'person', in the ways that you are. You have often said, you wished you had chosen to live far away from your mother when you were younger. Now you are doing your best to disengage from your mother, and she is not giving up on you because there is nobody else to be what you are to her. I admire your courage and intelligence in going back to work and making yourself less available to your mother. I wish my brother could have found a way to disengage with my mother. Instead he got cancer and died in her home, with mom abusing him in the months before he died because he was abandoning her.

[Methuen]

Thanks Zachira.  

The last year, I have been setting more and more boundaries with her, as I have not liked how she was treating me at times or how she has tried to enforce her rigid values onto me . The lesson here is that a good relationship improves with time as we feel more connected and seen by each other, and the bad ones become worse as the person shows their true colors.

It sounds like disconnecting with her, whether it be the medium chill method, or the other way, would be a sign of growth on your part. I doubt that there is a "right or wrong" way.  Just doing it and looking after yourself in the process (instead of putting her needs first) will be a bit of a journey.  I like what NW said, about being true to yourself, and doing what is right for you.  I love the metaphor of friendships being like a tree, and some are roots and some are leaves, and leaves can be lovely too.  I have never heard this metaphor before.  It is filled with wisdom.  I can think of a leaf that lasted about 8 months, but kind of changed my life in some ways.  It was a beautiful leaf, and came at just the right time for both of us.

You've got this Zachira.  Let us know how it goes.  We can all learn from your experience.

[zachira]

Methuen,
I love your tree metaphor. Two friends can grow together or grow apart. I was terribly immature when I became friends with this woman many years ago. Since then, I have had years of therapy, and now have very little contact with my dysfunctional family members and their flying monkeys. I am sad for this friend because she clearly has OCPD, dysfunctional obsessions with perfection which are mainly about religion and morality. I know many people from her religion, and they don't begin to carry to the extremes she does this religion's doctrines, like they never have used religion as an excuse to abuse their children. Mental health disorders are either ego dystonic, truly disturbing to the person with mental illness, or ego syntonic, (the person with the mental illness feels comfortable with their dysfunctional behaviors which is a hallmark of personality disorders). I have left her a voice mail that I do not want to talk on the phone with her now, because I am very busy with many things I have to get done. I see no point in giving her any real explanation. She has been given feedback over and over again about her dysfunctional behaviors. She is very critical of the therapy her sister had, who I also believe had OCPD, and believes the therapy is responsible for her sister's death. There is no hope for change or growth with this friend. I feel terribly sad for her and truly care about her, yet I am not helping her or myself by enabling her.

[zachira]

What really made me want to end the friendship, was my friend's description of how badly she treated a man she had a date with, the first date she had in years. She justified all her bad behaviors with him. He was clearly a fine man, did everything he could to meet her unreasonable expectations. He called her up to tell her he wasn't ready to get into a relationship, a couple of days after the date.  I finally see that she seeks people out who will let her get away with her dysfunctional behaviors. I thought I had made some progress with her, discussing how she might welcome her children back into her life if they ever sought her out. She is very firm that if they ever came to see her on the sabbath, she would put the religious practices of the sabbath over her children, and arrange to see them at another time on her terms. There is no hope for any growth or change. The worst things that happen to her like her children wanting no contact with her, did not change her, though she is heartbroken about losing them. Anything I do will not change the fact that she has a personality disorder, would likely be diagnosed with OCPD if she were to ever see a mental health professional. I have some codependent issues that I need to work on.

[zachira]

I realize now that I attract disordered people because I set poor boundaries with them. I am too nice and don't want to hurt their feelings. It really isn't a favor to a disordered person to enable them. People with personality disorders surround themselves with people who will enable their behaviors. Enabling disordered people's behaviors is being a flying monkey.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yes. I noticed that about me as well. My husband is often the one to call the red flags out and to tell me to let them go. I can recognize something is off, but I don't want to hurt their feelings. I think part of me also project what would be my mother's reaction on people. And I have to make a conscious effort to remind myself they are not my mother and will not scream and rage at me.

[zachira]

Riv3rW0lf,
We are manipulated since birth to put the feelings first of our disordered family members and not to challenge them in any way. I am glad you have your husband to support you. In my experiences, the healthy people have these boundaries that let the disordered people know that they will not put up with behaviors that are harmful to others.
I see part of my challenge of not wanting to hurt others and enabling disordered people, is how many times, I have been hurt when people rejected me for acting like my disordered family members.
Thank you for sharing and for your support.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Is part of it in the hope to help them change? As if part of you know they have "fleas", aren't disordered but just a bit lost/damage and you are hoping that being empathetic and welcoming will help them change for the best?

My husband often tells me the only thing that helps abusive people change is to be confronted to their behaviors... That sometimes, we have to be aggressive, we have to be angry, and we have to lash out at people to let them know we mean business and to leave us alone...

I honestly don't know how I feel about it.

I understand what he means though... Violent people rarely understand something else than violence. I can see that. But it is still counterintuitive for me. I'd rather stay "within" and I don't like "losing it".

He also often says that the only way they will learn, is if they are rejected by the tribe. And I can see that too... I changed BECAUSE I was rejected when I acted like my mother. I could see I was the problem, not them, and I changed. If people had enabled me, stayed around despite me treating them badly, I would have kept the same patterns I had learn from her... Rejection and shame both have a purpose too... We just carried so much of it for so long, we see them as negative... But they are neutral, a message that something requires our attention..

My husband is too aggressive though, and I am too nice. I guess between the two of us, we will reach the right balance.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
From my experiences, the people with personality disorders do not have the capacity for change, no matter how many times they are confronted about their aberrant behaviors. Brain images have shown key brain deficits in people with personality disorders. You and I are different and able to change because we felt distressed when seeing how behaving like our dysfunctional family members negatively affected us and others. There are many people who look like they have a personality disorder until the appropriate circumstances and sometimes treatment show otherwise. For example, a drug addict may look like he/she has NPD. Once the addiction is no longer affecting the person, either the appearance of having NPD becomes more evident or becomes less prominent, sometimes disappearing completely.
In my experiences, confronting a person with a personality disorder and/or someone just not ready to change, leads to terrible attacks on the person exposing the aberrant behaviors. In my opinion, my NPD sister is a malignant narcissist, and focused on taking revenge on anyone who does not worship her in the ways she desires, especially close family members. My narcissistic family is afraid of being exposed, and right now they are avoiding me, which I am more comfortable with then being openly attacked. There are so many stories on this site of people who confronted the disordered person/persons in their lives and how it just made things worse.

[Methuen]

My narcissistic family is afraid of being exposed, and right now they are avoiding me, which I am more comfortable with then being openly attacked.

I couldn't agree with you more.  Sometimes the silent treatment = peace and quiet.

There are so many stories on this site of people who confronted the disordered person/persons in their lives and how it just made things worse.

Agreed. It can escalate.  Confrontation = chaos worse than whatever just happened.  

Better to walk away (figuratively), and let them be them.

My husband often tells me the only thing that helps abusive people change is to be confronted to their behaviors... That sometimes, we have to be aggressive, we have to be angry, and we have to lash out at people to let them know we mean business and to leave us alone...

He also often says that the only way they will learn, is if they are rejected by the tribe. And I can see that too... I changed BECAUSE I was rejected when I acted like my mother. I could see I was the problem, not them, and I changed. If people had enabled me, stayed around despite me treating them badly, I would have kept the same patterns I had learn from her...

I hear you Riv3rW0lf.  I think the key is in how it's done.  I will use "I statements", or SET , or ask validating questions or use boundaries.  Recently when my mom was saying wild and nonsensical accusations against a black male home care worker, I used one or two of these techniques, and she calmed down. 

I'm not comfortable with reacting with anger or outrage or aggression (i.e. lashing out) because it just doesn't feel right to me.  When my mom rages at me, I tell her we can talk when she is feeling better, and then I leave.  I once famously walked out of her house without stopping to put my shoes on, and she opened the door screaming at me that she was going to die from a stroke because of me.  I just wasn't doing to stay and listen to that verbal vomit and be her doormat.

However, I don't thinking that yelling back at someone in that frame of mind will lead to anything positive.  On the other hand, if your H is talking about setting boundaries, that is a very good idea.  Boundaries are truly essential.

And I do agree that "calling them out" on some of the crazy stuff makes sense, but I think how we deliver the message could be as (or more) important than the message itself.

And the challenge seems to be ours to bear, since they can't.

[Methuen]

It really isn't a favor to a disordered person to enable them.

This.  This is golden.  The problem is that when we are enabling, we often do it as an act of love, and don't even see the enabling.  This quote is deep, and worth spending a lot of time reflecting on.  How have we enabled the disordered people in our lives (friends or family)? Until we can see it, we are unlikely to find a path to growth. It seems Zachira, that you have seen that you were enabling your friend of so many years.  I suspect most of us have fallen into the enabling trap.  It's not easy to become aware, and then take the steps back from our enabling behaviors.  It's truly a struggle.

[zachira]

Methuen,
The big question is: How can we stop enabling the behaviors of disordered people? I believe it is by working on our own self esteem to the point, that it becomes second nature to surround ourselves with healthy people and to automatically set boundaries with disordered people as soon as the disordered behaviors become apparent. I have struggled with acting like my disordered family members. I have welcomed people who helped make me a better person, become a person in my own right, with little in common with my disordered family members and their social circle. I feel sad for the situation with your mother, as you continue to enforce healthier boundaries with her. As you said, the silent treatment can sometimes mean peace and quiet. I have just come to the realization that my NPD sister is likely afraid of me now, after she hired the best law firm and lawyer to defend her against me and lost, I believe due to her narcissism and unreasonable expectations. There comes a point where accomodating a bully just leads to more bullying. We have to remember that the disordered people can only turn their venom on others who are available, like a young child or an adult who does not feel like he/she can just walk away from a disordered family member needing help. I am able to end the friendship with this woman, yet I am still stuck dealing with the legal problems with my siblings until I hopefully won't be. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you that at some point, your mother will be getting the care she needs and you will have a level of involvement that is healthier for you. It seems you are on the road to a healthier level of involvement with your mother, as you feel more comfortable setting healthier boundaries with her, which does not enable her, just makes her more responsible for her own decisions.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Methuen,

In all honesty, I think he only says that because he has never been through real abuse, if that makes sense. He hasn't dealt with anyone with a PD.

Also, I do think for men, between men, there is always an underlying threat of physical violence, and maybe this is why he takes a tough stance. For women, this isn't true. The underlying threat is more rejection from the tribe... That's how I feel it anyway. For men, there would be a fight, and then when the fight is over, even if you lost, you get to come back. For women, you are out. I sometimes think those dynamics, while not holding true in our current society, are still ingrained in our body.

My mother never dared have a tantrum in front of him, and I have honestly NO IDEA how he would really react.

I see the point about rejection though, about making someone feel shame by ignoring them, by calling them out when they critic us by asking, in a firm voice and loud enough so that everyone can hear :"what do you mean by that exactly?". Mostly, his advices are about staying firm and assertive, and putting a bully on the spot in front of everyone else, calling out the abuse in front of the "tribe". He says most bullies will back out and will not dare continue laughing or criticizing.  This would absolutely not work in private, with someone who has a PD.

On my end, I tend to stay calm and hold my ground the best I can. And I often try to defuse with a calm demeanor, while remaining assertive(ish). I just don't see the point in screaming and I am not a very convincing bully, . I've been through some serious trauma has a teenager, I was bullied heavily at school and I don't think I ever came back to normal after that. I have a very hard time holding my ground with intimidating strangers. It is a work in progress for me. Thankfully, there are not many of them in my current age range!

[lm1109]

This friendship thread has been really valuable for me! We have had a handful of get togethers with "old" friends these last few months. We also went camping for a full weekend with some friends this past weekend. I've had a lot of fun but I've also been aware/awake enough to recognize some of my OWN old patterns through these friendships. I'm also recognizing the balance in learning when to let go and recognizing that I also struggle with an amount of black and white thinking when it comes to others. With the friend I mentioned earlier on the thread..I feel it's time to gently let go. However, with the friends we went camping with this weekend...I had some real revelations. It's a couple and their son that my husband and I have reconnected with...they are good people...my husband is friends with the husband from work(I'll call him M) and I really connect well with his wife and the kids get along great. I noticed that M really tried to control the schedule all weekend, dominate conversations, etc. I'm a pretty go with the flow person so I was fine with doing whatever activities they wanted and follow their schedule, however, his controlling really started to wear on me by the middle of the trip. The real eye opener came when he began to criticize other peoples bodies at the pool. I sat there in shock because this is the EXACT way my Mom behaved. I sat in an uncomfortable silence(the way I did with my Mom when she did this)! The last straw was when we went to a barbecue for dinner. The campground held a funny contest...it was basically the opposite of a beauty pageant(sort of a spoof)...it was just for men and the men were not fit and they were  dancing to be funny, etc . It was just for fun...and the guys who signed up were amazing sports and everyone had a great time(everyone but M) At the end he began to say inappropriate things in a loud enough voice that others, including one of the men, could hear. I told him to stop and confronted him about saying hurtful things about other people in front of me and my children. To my surprise, his wife backed me up, and he actually apologized and was very genuine about it...he told me that I was right and that he shouldn't be saying those things. It was as if he genuinely didn't realize he was being so judgemental. The rest of the trip was smooth sailing, he calmed down, and we all had a great time.

I realized that if I hadn't stayed true to myself and confronted him, I may have "painted him black" and not wanted to hang out with them again(despite getting along great with his wife, kids getting along, etc) I would have judged him for being so judgemental.
 I also realized that one of my own biggest fleas in the early years of my adulthood was being judgemental and it was almost entirely unconscious. It's because I grew up in such a judgemental environment and I was made to believe that complaining/judging people and situations was "bonding" since that was the only way I got attention from my Mom. As I heal...I can recognize that when I start to get judgemental it is usually because I am putting up walls or feeling insecure about my own self.

So...what I learned this weekend is that, for me, friendship means being myself around that person. It means not feeling like I have to abandon myself to keep them happy. If something is not working for me...then I will kindly say so...if they respect that...then they are a friend...if they don't...then that "friendship" is not right for me. For me... everything keeps coming back to understanding my own worth in relationships. I'm no longer willing to abandon myself or my values.

However, I don't believe(at all) that M has a PD just some "bad" behaviors or maybe even "fleas" from his own upbringing and those behaviors were balanced out by other good/fun traits. With the other friend that I am choosing to let go...I believe she has a PD and...as you all have said...my lack of boundaries, empathy, and willingness to look past red flags led her to fully take down her mask with me. I am in the process of removing myself from being her "person"(great analogy) I am not going to confront her because our children have been friends for years and her children are all very sweet and I care about them...of course...I see my own child self in them(I was them) I have horrible memories in my own childhood of kids ending friendships with me because my mom would get into "fights" with their parents, behave badly around them, or my Mom would force me to end friendships because she wouldn't like them, etc. I will continue to be cordial to this woman but I will NOT enable or respond to  personal information anymore. To be honest, I think she already took that hint because when she tried to text about her issues with her son and forward emails, etc. I have sent back the same couple word texts in response(hope it's all resolved soon) I think Grey Rocking and being busy is key with her... I don't think she will want to waste her time on me if I'm not enabling...and hopefully we can get back to just being "mom friends"(being friendly at kids functions)

Thank you all for sharing on this thread. Navigating friendships has always been a difficult thing for me, but I recognize that it's time to put the energy into figuring out these dynamics and my own patterns. It really helps to understand that this is a common struggle for those of us who grew up with disordered parents. I am getting to the point where I am ready to find my "chosen family" and  I feel like I'm finally making healthy progress!   

[Riv3rW0lf]

I also realized that one of my own biggest fleas in the early years of my adulthood was being judgemental and it was almost entirely unconscious. It's because I grew up in such a judgemental environment and I was made to believe that complaining/judging people and situations was "bonding" since that was the only way I got attention from my Mom. As I heal...I can recognize that when I start to get judgemental it is usually because I am putting up walls or feeling insecure about my own self.


So...what I learned this weekend is that, for me, friendship means being myself around that person. It means not feeling like I have to abandon myself to keep them happy. If something is not working for me...then I will kindly say so...if they respect that...then they are a friend...if they don't...then that "friendship" is not right for me. For me... everything keeps coming back to understanding my own worth in relationships. I'm no longer willing to abandon myself or my values.

Yes, I also see that in myself. I also noticed, last time I spent time with my mother, that I started disliking myself because it is the same for my mother and I: judging and talking about others is how she bonds.

 And when I noticed that was what was happening, I stopped, and started to say nice things about the people she wanted to talk against, instead saying things like : "Really? That didn't occur to me that he would do this. He works a lot and I am genuinely happy for him and his current success."

Then when hit the fan, she told me she didn't think she could trust me because I probably talked behind her back like I talked in the back of others. I simply answered: "I could say the exact same about you, mom."

And so I realized, recently, that the further I am from her, the less judgmental I feel toward others.

My profound nature, which I feel like I just met, is one that likes to stay within myself. For me, this means raising my self-esteem, focussing on my own emotions toward things, and being very careful about my projections. And when I do : I realize the need to judge disappear as I myself start taking my rightful place in the world and stating who I am.

To paraphrase you : in the end, I am also truly not interested in being friends with people who would reject the real me if they knew her, so might as well be me.

And interestingly enough, the more me I am, the less critics seem to affect me, and ironically, the less critics I seem to get from other's and the more I feel people value our time together, and the more I value them.

As I am feeling more and more comfortable with myself, I can also see that a lot of the critics I received were projections of others on me, of their own guilt, their own shame, and therefore not my responsibility to carry, so I can more easily shrug them off. I know who I am, I know when I am in the wrong, I trust in my empathy and my genuine care for others to let me know when I am truly at fault. And I now refuse to carry undue blame, or to change because someone doesn't like me, or even to hide who I am and not say what I think, like and mean. If they don't like who I am: they can leave the friendship, it is ok. I feel good enough with myself that I don't need a friend that only want to be friend with me if I change. I'd rather be with myself, gardening or reading a book, than with someone like that.

I also recently realized that I do not have to be friend with everyone... A bit like dating, really. I wouldn't marry any men, so why would I befriend everyone? I have a right to choose who I want to be friend with, just like they can decide if they want to be friend with me or not. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. The important thing is : I can also say no.

I met a woman recently. She is nice, but she started texting me an awful lot. Saw her twice, and she would send me pictures and videos of her children every day, telling me all she did with them almost by the hour. It really put me off. I had no interest in validating her days and parenting decisions all day long. I tried to keep on going, sending signals that it was too much but I think this is the kind of friendship she was looking for, while I was looking for a bi-monthly get together and not necessarily anything in between? I value my independance...

So I gently eased out of the relationship and I don't think I will see her again. It just wasn't a match, and I am coming to peace with the fact that : I don't have to like everyone. She was nice, but we just don't see friendship the same way. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And it is ok.

[lm1109]

 I value my independance...

I totally understand this. I also really value my independance. I've had a few similar friendships over the years and also ended up ending them. At the time, I beat myself up a bit and I questioned wether it was a problem with me. But after a little reflection I can see that not everyone values independance the same...and that's ok. I am someone who likes to make a plan ahead of time and I don't enjoy surprise visits or spur of the moment plans... especially when my kids were babies/toddlers and they had naps/routines because those were the times of the day that I got things done... or ya know bathed, worked out, had some coffee, or took a breath...

It makes sense to me that I am so put off by anyone encroaching my independance...because my independance has always been my means of survival. I didn't have a family to rely on, so my independance is what got me through and going inward is the only way I thrive and feel "guided" and I know now...that this is a good thing...at least for me. Some people are constantly needing/wanting external validation or constant interaction with others... I don't need that...because I never had that.

I'd rather be with myself, gardening or reading a book, than with someone like that.

I feel this same way... finally getting to this point really feels like a big healthy shift for me. I used to be terrified of judgement and feared that others wouldn't like me...as if someone not liking me was somehow proof that there was something inherently wrong with me...proof that my parents were "right" I won't pretend that I am fully healed here...but I can honestly say that the more that I embrace who I truly am rather than people pleasing the better I feel...even if someone doesn't like me or a friendship isn't a match. I'm able to walk away knowing that Id rather be with me...like you said...reading, doing yoga, etc then waste my time trying to make someone like me(which coincidentally is exactly what I did with my Mom my whole life)

"You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with."
Wayne W. Dyer

[Methuen]

Methuen,
The big question is: How can we stop enabling the behaviors of disordered people? I believe it is by working on our own self esteem to the point, that it becomes second nature to surround ourselves with healthy people and to automatically set boundaries with disordered people as soon as the disordered behaviors become apparent. It seems you are on the road to a healthier level of involvement with your mother, as you feel more comfortable setting healthier boundaries with her, which does not enable her, just makes her more responsible for her own decisions.

There's a lot packed into this paragraph.

You are right about the "big question".  Honestly, I think we all end up with slightly different solutions because each of us and our pwBPD is unique, therefore unique solutions, or "tweaks" on common solutions are needed.  Looking back on my past 3 years, I would have to say the hardest has been boundaries.  To have to put boundaries in place with a mother is beyond the comprehension of probably 95% of the population ( guessing at the %). Almost nobody except family members of other pwBPD and psychiatrists/psychologists/clinical counsellors can understand.  

You mention that for us to stop enabling their behaviors we have to work on our self-esteem and boundaries.  I agree.  My question is what comes first?  Or are they concurrent?  I wonder if this is a chicken and egg question.  Do the boundaries come first because that gives us the space to finally start working on "ourselves"?  Or does the self-esteem come first, so that we have the gumption to set boundaries and see them through without caving when the extinction burst comes? Personally I think we have to find a way to do both.  This is very hard as it takes time, energy, $$ (T), and a whole lot of grit.  It's exhausting.  But so is the alternative of being the doormat and slave of our pwBPD.

It's sounds like you have made progress disentangling yourself from your friend.   And it sounds like the silent treatment from your disordered family members lends a more peaceful feeling than their abuse. 

[zachira]

Methuen,
I learned a really valuable lesson when I had to hire an attorney to defend myself against my NPD sister's lawyer who was top notch and from the best law firm in the region for the legal issues involved. I went through a couple of lawyers before I found the right one, after many recommendations from local people and other respected local lawyers, and after having learned to ask the right questions. I realized my challenges involved being trauma bonded to narcissists and not valuing myself enough to do the deep dive to find the right lawyer and really communicate with the lawyer to let him know how to best represent my interests. The more we value ourselves, the easier it becomes to set boundaries, even though we face having the abuse increase for awhile, known as an extinction burst, to get us to go back to the old ways of enabling the abuser/abusers. I have struggled considerabley with gaslighting myself because of all the flying monkeys my sister has cultivated since we were children, and the family's unwritten rule that everyone has to fall in line in worshipping the golden children and using the scapegoats as dumping grounds for the family members' internal frustrations. I think working on boundaries and self esteem are done at the same time, and one cannot do one without the other, and they reinforce each other.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yesterday, I met with my neighbor (the woman, not the man who did all those comments about me having nothing to do because I was a stay at home mother). She is home right now, had a baby two months ago or so, and she wanted to get together with her oldest and my kids. Have some company. I said sure, we usually have nice small talks and she seems genuine in who she is.

So we hung out and had some good discussions, really. She confided in some of her current struggles, how she doesn't really like where she lives and is looking for ways to feel better here, how she had anxiety, did psychotherapy. About her father, her mother... So I opened up a bit too about my mother, what I'd learned. It seems precipitated, but then, we have been talking with each other a few times a week, 15 minutes here and there for three months... And I didn't go in details, wasn't laying it all out, wasn't in a victim tone... More like a casual : hey this is me, kinda talk, I said something about how I value my independance because she was asking about a stay at home mom group I created... I was honest about my journey and who I am. We talked about our kids, parenting. We differ, but I didn't sense any judgments on her part.

So I felt it went well. I felt grounded and honest, and I don't really care how I looked. I was myself. And I know she had a good time too, and enjoyed the realness of our talks... But here's where it gets weird...

I still feel there is maybe something up, something unhealthy about the whole thing. And I don't know if it is just me and my trauma, or if there really is something that is triggering my intuition. Like something tells me I can see her BUT should keep a safe distance. The problem is : I have no idea how to keep a safe distance?

Also... Is it that I always think I should keep a distance, or is it a genuine intuition because my unconscious is seeing signs that my conscious mind cannot yet put into words? Has anyone else experienced this?

The only thing that comes to mind is:
- when her husband comes out of their house, it seems to me she acts threatened. It is true that her husband and I have the same profession so we do have a similar mind and things to talk about, but I make conscious effort in talking to her more. I have NO interest in her husband and am happily married. And something feels off.

- at the end of our meeting yesterday, she mentioned she liked the authenticity and couldn't tolerate someone playing behind her back. And it was said with a weird tone, like some kind of warning? And I just said: yes well.. who does? Wished her a good day and left (I was leaving when she said that anyway). It's not so much what she said but the way she said it, but then : I truly am sensitive to those mood switch, so I am just not sure if the mask lifted a second there, and if it even is a cause for concern. I just don't want to end up a weird triangle dynamic between her husband, her and me that I am unaware of. It happened before with a couple of friends and I hated it.

- I did notice a tendancy they have for perfection. And I see it as the flight response, I recognize myself in those behaviors. I am learning to let go, and I don't know that they are but I don't care. It is not my business nor my life, I can just observe that something about me triggers them (but not always, they still seem to act nice and to want to talk to me?). It sometimes feel like there is some kind of competition sneaking it, upon which I will not embark, because like I said : my main goal right now is to stay WITHIN. I am turned inward, and am trying to keep the outside buzz OUT. I am taking care of my needs, my feelings, my thoughts, and striving to be myself, which I do feel I am achieving more and more.
 
- I do not feel the same dynamic with my other neighbor, at all. But I saw her less often and it's more chitchat than anything else.

I don't know... I hoped writing this would help me see more clearly and come up with some protective boundaries. And maybe it did...

Do you agree that looking inward, keeping the noise out, should be enough to protect me from any disordered behaviors, should they turn out to be real? I am still keeping the door opened to the fact that I see it as worst than it is, or will get. But I can't help but think there really is something off... Intuition VS projection. This is my challenge here.

And also that it seems to me that all friendships must come with some kind of struggle or challenges?

[zachira]

Riv3rW0lf,
One of my biggest lessons has been when I feel something is off with a person it usually is. I have noticed I feel comfortable being myself and have better emotional boundaries around people who are healthy to be around. With the disordered people there is always that underlying feeling that something is off. The biggest red flag for me, is that the disordered people really never see me for who I am or have anything genuinely nice to say about me that is true. I have had what I thought were friendships start with too many personal disclosures that are things one would only share after developing a close friendship over time or were things that really would only be safe to discuss in therapy.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

Riv3rW0lf,
One of my biggest lessons has been when I feel something is off with a person it usually is. I have noticed I feel comfortable being myself and have better emotional boundaries around people who are healthy to be around. With the disordered people there is always that underlying feeling that something is off. The biggest red flag for me, is that the disordered people really never see me for who I am or have anything genuinely nice to say about me that is true. I have had what I thought were friendships start with too many personal disclosures that are things one would only share after developing a close friendship over time or were things that really would only be safe to discuss in therapy.  

I have to say that she is a family doctor. So part of her profession is to hear people talk about them, and using her as a therapist. I didn't do it, I didn't open up on anything deeply personal, nor talked about anything I struggle with. I was feeling pretty well and grounded and I didn't confide anything that felt like exposing my vulnerability. She did most of the talking... I am thinking maybe because her relationship with people is so straight to the point most of the time in her career, that she may find it easier to open up and talk about real things straight away? Maybe she struggles right now and have no one to listen to her too. I didn't feel like she was acting like a victim either, just healthy venting really.

Basically it was fine and dandy until that comment about playing in her back and the weird dynamic with her husband. Maybe I am just picking up on something between them that has nothing to do with me... But it is steering me the other way, because I am not interested in being in the middle of it, whatever "it" is.

She was telling me how they started running because he found himself fat and uncomfortable in his body. I simply said (my favorite phrase it seems to avoid traps nowadays): don't we all?  

But come to think of it, maybe it was some kind of unconscious fish, like having me say something like: really? I don't see why!

See, now I am overreaching, lost in superanalysis mode... Gonna drive back to healthy adult  

My husband says I think too much about those things. I think he may be on to something. But then, his vision is maybe not as blurred as mine is. He asked me : do you feel good when you see them? I said: not really, neutral/bad vides. He said: there you go, that should be enough to stand clear of them.

But part of me just have to dive deep and understand the dynamic and what is happening.. to grow probably. 

[zachira]

I am wanting to make and keep healthy friendships, and let the ones go that are more about where I was before I faced how trauma bonded I am to certain kinds of people.
I was thinking today about this friend with the PD and how on several occasions throughout the years we have known each other, she got upset with me for talking about a former colleague who clearly had Asperger's who was demoted from her job, and viewed as incompetent by the whole staff except for my ex friend who defends her. I was perplexed as to why she could not see what everybody else gets about the woman with Asperger's and her inablity to do her job. I also recently ran into a woman I was once friendly with who constantly complained about her boyfriend. It seems a big part of having healthy friends is listening to how they talk about other people and being aware of what kind of people they choose to surround themselves with and whether they get people or not. The friend with the PD does not want to be criticized in any way, so she refuses to acknowledge the obvious with the former coworker with Asperger's who was a nightmare to work with, as all the employees paid way less than she was did her job for years. It seems with the second woman that she is unable to let go of relationships she is unhappy with.
The healthy peope have a positive regard for others, until there is some genuine reason not to, though their healthy boundaries usually turn off the wrong people early on, and attract and keep the right kind of people in their lives.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The healthy peope have a positive regard for others, until there is some genuine reason not to, though their healthy boundaries usually turn off the wrong people early on, and attract and keep the right kind of people in their lives.

I want to agree with this, but I sometimes worry I will myself never reach this point.

I have moved around my whole life and never had any real friendship that lasted. When I did make friends, I would end up changing school and would have to start all over again, and so, it seems to me I could never learn how to make long lasting healthy friendship.

As a result, I find myself both on high alert, scared of people and also craving connection, something real, a tribe of my own. Alas, it seems I can never find it. There is always something tipping me off.

I open up too much, too fast, then I feel uncomfortable with myself in front of them. I open up too much too fast because I crave connection. I feel uncomfortable with myself because I acted in a socially awkward manner that might result in them not wanting a friendship with me because it is too "heavy".

A lot of healthy people do not want drama. They want things to be light and casual. To laugh and be happy. And I can achieve that maybe one time out of five. .

I am socially very awkward.

I just spent a weekend at a couple of friends house with my children. Our children love each other very much. And I had nothing to say. But when I said nothing, I started thinking they will think I am weird or too serious. So I put pressure on myself to speak more, resulting in awkward conversation I really didn't want to have. I found myself overanalysing and feeling bad about the whole weekend, only to realize I probably also put them off with my social anxiety. It wasn't them. I was the issue. Focusing on them instead of talking about me would have likely made all of it much better. I just opened up too much, looking for safety, validation, and those are both things I have to provide myself with.

I've come to the realization that I have no idea what a healthy friendship is and how to develop one.

The truth of the matter is : I know I am healthy to be around for friends. But I feel I come accross as someone who isn't? My husband himself often tells me : "I love how awkward you are." And it is not meant to be mean. I see what he means. I always end up losing myself in philosophy, science, theology, and those subjects repulse many people. I have a hard time with sustained small chats or happy chats. I can do it, but not on a continuum. I end up feeling tired and nervous and overall uncomfortable.

I find it hard to connect with most people and then I hate myself for it. Maybe I am just not meant for friendship. Maybe some of us are meant to walk a more lonely path in life. I am not unhappy, I have a loving husband and two wonderful children, and I can stand on my own. But I sometimes wonder where my friend went, if that makes sense. Like I am supposed to have one, but we lost each other when we entered the world.

I can only belong when I filter myself.

As I finished writing this, my company partner wrote me to have coffee via webcam, since I've had to move away in January, and yet another healthy friend whom I loved stayed behind. Story of my life it seems! And even with her, I filter myself. But she is one of the rare ones who never seemed put off my it.

Anyone else always filtering themselves? About what they truly love and think?

[zachira]

Riv3rW0lf,
It seems the challenges you have with making friends are more common that you might believe. Do you know if you are an introvert or extrovert? Introverts need alone time to recharge and are drained by being around people. Extroverts recharge with people and feel something is missing if they have too much alone time.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Riv3rW0lf,
It seems the challenges you have with making friends are more common that you might believe. Do you know if you are an introvert or extrovert? Introverts need alone time to recharge and are drained by being around people. Extroverts recharge with people and feel something is missing if they have too much alone time.

I am an introvert. But I think my struggle goes beyond that of introversion. And I know it is related to the exclusion schema... Like  I am not fitting in and the fact that I have most probably more mirror neurons that some, making me deeply aware when I triggered someone with what I said, or when they don't agree but won't say it... And I'd rather they say it, because it makes it unbearable for me at times to know I messed up and it staying in the covert world.

[zachira]

Riv3rW0lf,
You might want to try meditation. For a few years, I have been doing meditation. It seems when I made my decision to leave my family, it freed up a lot of energy. I am finally calmer, and no longer an emotional eater. I find doing at least an hour of meditation around four times a week helps me to process my over the top emotions from being abandonned, and abused by my family and their flying monkeys, and healthier people are more interested in being around me and the disordered people lose interest in me more quickly.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Riv3rW0lf,
You might want to try meditation. For a few years, I have been doing meditation. It seems when I made my decision to leave my family, it freed up a lot of energy. I am finally calmer, and no longer an emotional eater. I find doing at least an hour of meditation around four times a week helps me to process my over the top emotions from being abandonned, and abused by my family and their flying monkeys, and healthier people are more interested in being around me and the disordered people lose interest in me more quickly.

Yes Zacchira, I can see how doing meditation one hour daily would help in being more centered, and less impacted by the emotions of others, or at least less triggered and less confused...

I find it helpful only to learn that you know what I am talking about. What you call the emotional eating. It is a good way to phrase it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Ha ! I just realized what you meant by emotional eating. I had something else in mind.. like eating the emotions of someone else. My bad.

But I am glad and happy to hear you are doing better. It takes a lot of discipline to practice self-care, and it sounds like you really took yourself in charge. Thank you for sharing your experience here. I  have to remind myself that growth comes in wave and that what feels like "steps back" are really only new wisdom and knowledge about myself that become conscious.

[zachira]

Riv3rW0lf,
You are right that the growth comes in waves. Sometimes the pressure to grow and change can be overwhelming, and it can feel like we have hit rock bottom. Somehow we get to a point with the disordered people in our lives, that we can't take it anymore, and the only choice is growth so we don't attract more similar disordered people, and start to feel worthy of having healthy relationships, despite having to grieve so many lifelong losses.

[lm1109]

I find it hard to connect with most people and then I hate myself for it. Maybe I am just not meant for friendship. Maybe some of us are meant to walk a more lonely path in life. I am not unhappy, I have a loving husband and two wonderful children, and I can stand on my own. But I sometimes wonder where my friend went, if that makes sense. Like I am supposed to have one, but we lost each other when we entered the world.

I really relate to this and it does make sense to me...I recently wrote in my journal and told my husband about something I had never spoken about: As a child I would catch myself thinking "I want to go home" VERY OFTEN. I would be in my bed or somewhere "at home" and would think it...so of course I was confused by it...but it never stopped and I thought it ALL of the time. Looking back it's as if I always, at some level, knew that I wasn't "home" and that I wasn't with "my people" and I longed for "them" and I longed for "home"

For me...it didn't help that my brother, who was 4 years older, seemed to easily make friends everywhere he went. He was loud, funny and the life of the party. He had tons of friends and I felt left behind by him and I felt very inept because I never had the ability to be that way. I was extremely introverted(into art, writing, and music) and was socially awkward when I was young. This led to my eating disorders and marijuana use...I just wanted to "fit in"  It never occured to me until later in life that my brother's need for everyone to see and love him was ALSO a defense mechanism. I only say this...because I realize now that just because other people may be better at social situations doesn't mean that they are better off emotionally. A few years ago my husband and I lost his cousin to suicide(like my brother) and she had a similar outgoing social personality as my brother... outwardly she seemed absolutely perfect...and it was shock to everyone who knew her. It made me wonder if maybe sometimes certain people get really good at being around others because they are afraid of being alone with themselves?

I also open up too much and I am reaching a level of acceptance that I may never find another friend who is truly willing to swim alongside me in the deepest end of the pool. I probably wouldn't want to "go there" either...but that's where I was thrown into in this life...and so I will swim...deeper and deeper until I find the answers and closure that I am looking for and need.

My husband gets mad(jokingly) when I say that my theme song is Green Day's Boulevard of Broken Dreams...it came out when I was in highschool and it helped me after my sexual assault and hardest teen years at "home" with my parents. And although I feel like I am making positive strides...to this day...it secretly runs through my head when I feel like I've had a failed attempt at a social situation or feel "alone". I find it comforting...because "alone" is not so bad when I am kind to myself and my inner child self...it's not so bad when I feel peaceful and at ease.

Riv3rW0lf,
You are right that the growth comes in waves. Sometimes the pressure to grow and change can be overwhelming, and it can feel like we have hit rock bottom. Somehow we get to a point with the disordered people in our lives, that we can't take it anymore, and the only choice is growth so we don't attract more similar disordered people, and start to feel worthy of having healthy relationships, despite having to grieve so many lifelong losses.

I know that this was meant for Riv3rwolf...but this really hit home for me! Well said!