She wants out. I don't

[Jabberwocky]

At the end of a week long silent treatment, my uBPDw told me today that she wants out of the marriage (of 30 years).  This isn't the first time, but she seems more resolute than before.  She says that she is willing to go to couples therapy, but I'm worried that she is just looking at it as an opportunity to prove that we should no longer be together.  I'm really struggling because I JUST came to an understanding of her BPD traits.  And I JUST (thanks to this site) picked up a ton of tools to use in our relationship. 

I don't want to leave. I'm sure that I'm not better without her.  And I really don't think that she would be better without me. 

I think that she believes that I never really loved her, but I have (imperfectly to be sure...I have my struggles too).     I can't help but wonder whether how she is feeling right now is impacted by BPD.  She seems calm, but is she rational?  Does years of BPD change her perception of me?  Can I change it back? 

I feel like I've been JADEing for years.  And I didn't in our discussion today.  But is it too late?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s difficult to know if she will change her mind. Though with BPD, what she thinks and believes in the moment seems like an absolute, never changing truth. However, that too can change on a whim.

Hold fast. If you want to remain in the marriage, say so, without equivocation.

It could be that she will realize that being alone might not be as desirable as she might have imagined.

[hurtingbad]

If she is willing to go to therapy, I would say do it.  It certainly won't hurt anything if she still plans on leaving, but it could definitely help.  I don't see I down side to trying.

I JADE all the time as well.  I just can't find my way out of it with the bombardment of questions that I can't figure out how to respond to without JADEing.  And at times, to my/our detriment, I just can't help but get mad when my uBPDh starts in on me.  Would love the opportunity to see a counselor, so I say go for it and good luck!

[Couscous]

And I JUST (thanks to this site) picked up a ton of tools to use in our relationship. 

The changes you have been making are upsetting the equilibrium in your relationship system, and if the balance of power is shifting and she realizes that she no longer has the upper hand in your relationship, and if that is the most important thing for her, then it’s not at all surprising that she wants out.

But this could also just be a ‘countermove’ on her part in a desperate attempt to reinstate the status quo. If you hold firm to the changes you have made and don’t panic, with time she may be able to adjust.

As for the couple’s counseling, she may not be suggesting this in good faith and might be attempting to play a game called ‘Look how hard I’ve tried’ or ‘Courtroom’.

https://ericberne.com/games-people-play/look-how-hard-ive-tried/

[Jabberwocky]

As for the couple’s counseling, she may not be suggesting this in good faith and might be attempting to play a game called ‘Look how hard I’ve tried’ or ‘Courtroom’.

https://ericberne.com/games-people-play/look-how-hard-ive-tried/

She said so much, that she is only doing it to prove that she is done. 

[Couscous]

I’m so sorry Jabberwocky. I had a similar experience, and when I started using the various tools I was quite rapidly discarded. I think this is common when the pwBPD really has NPD, or a combination of the two because their highest priority is being the dominant person and they need to be in the one-up position at all costs because it’s the only way they feel ‘safe’ in the relationship.

But I could no longer continue giving myself up in order to make the relationship work so there was no other option for me. Wishing you all the best in your journey to recovery.  

[Turkish]

My ex played that Transactional Analysis game luring me into therapy. So did my mom even I was 12.

[SaltyDawg]

I can say me too.  19 and 1/2 years of marriage here with an uBPDw.  My wife definitely has abandonment issues, and when I remotely called her bluff for the first time ever, 2 weeks ago, saying I too have those feelings and it is finally on my radar, she had a severe (for her) borderline raging splitting episode (11/10} her worst one yet.  When the splitting ended hours later and she had time to reflect, she reversed course; and indicated she did not want a divorce the following day and when I told her I know, she hug and kissed me. This goes with the territory of her desperate need to control the situation. In addition to this website there are several good to help books on this matter.

Whenever my wife threatens anything, whether it be suicide, divorce, or the threat it is a control issue for her. The tools on this website and in the books takes away what little control she has, and that's very scary for a true borderline.

Just think of her as a 2-year-old, wanting to get her way. If you deny what she wants, a tantrum will follow.  The more they want something, the worse the tantrum.  The only thing different between a two-year-old and my wife is that she is an adult in an adult body with an adult mind with the emotional state of a two-year-old when she is triggered.

Better background for me, she has been doing this for 12 years, with two of the threats being very serious, most of the other ones not being serious enough.  Generally speaking, when the splitting ends so does the threat. However, based on the unpredictability of her behavior you need to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

I highly recommend that you guys do get counseling, however, you should find one that specializes in dealing where one or both partners have BPD/NPD (high conflict) otherwise you will be spinning your wheels in the mud.  Do your homework, and research for the best counselor. However, if your wife chooses, make sure if there's more than one counselor at that location you get the one best qualified to handle BPD and or NPD.

Like others before me I've mentioned if they also have narcissistic tendencies, she will behave differently than my wife who does not have these narcissistic tendencies. 

In any event, before you do anything you should read the following book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life"
Book by Margalis Fjelstad

This will give you detailed instructions on how to manage a borderline and or narcissist.  The description in section 1 fit my case almost 100%.

Then read
Stop Walking on Eggshells
Book by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger

Do the assessments in section 1 of that book in order to determine if you're dealing with a pure borderline or a borderline narcissist.

Also pay particular attention to the symptoms as the symptoms can also be other disorders such as bipolar. The biggest differentiator is the duration of the splitting being minutes to days versus weeks to years.  There's also a very good chance there are other co-morbidities present and that will add different variables to the equation.

Become an expert, become an advocate, and most importantly be patient and don't let your emotions and reactions get in the way.  It took me 10 days to figure out that she was a borderline after I was introduced to the concept. Then it took another 200 hours for me to become an expert, and I am still learning new things everyday.

Make small changes, implement one tool at a time, don't do it all at once as that will really freak out your wife.  Ideally do it under an experienced counselor which is exceptionally hard to find.  Trust me, I know as I tried it too fast as I was too impatient. This process will take anywhere from 18 months to a lifetime.  I took 3 years of counseling just to figure out she is a borderline, still undiagnosed, still in denial even though she presents with all the symptoms.

[Couscous]

SaltyDawg,

You clearly have done your homework and you make such a great point about determining if the person is pure borderline, or a borderline narcissist. You are actually quite fortunate that your wife is pure borderline — or maybe I should say that you are less unfortunate. My general impression has been that the vast majority of people who post on this website seem to have spouses or family members who have a lot of symptoms of NPD, or even ASPD, which makes the possibility for remaining in relationship a lot bleaker because being in control is their absolute highest priority and they seem to prefer losing the relationship rather than losing control.

[Jabberwocky]

SaltyDawg,
My general impression has been that the vast majority of people who post on this website seem to have spouses or family members who have a lot of symptoms of NPD, or even ASPD, which makes the possibility for remaining in relationship a lot bleaker because being in control is their absolute highest priority and they seem to prefer losing the relationship rather than losing control.

So is there an element of granting control to an extent in this scenario?  I have a tendency to want control too, but if I think about it, there are so many areas where I don't need it.  As an example, my wife often gets extremely agitated when I'm driving.  She sees a car stopped ahead, and gasps or shouts "Brakelights", when there is plenty of time for me to safely stop.  I think that I realize as a manifestation of her feeling out of control, and honestly there is no reason why I need to be the one who is literally in the driver's seat.  There are probably a number of other places that I don't need to be "in the driver's seat", if it makes her feel safer.

[Couscous]

So is there an element of granting control to an extent in this scenario?

According to author Nina Brown, if your wife is highly narcissistic, then the answer to this is probably no because: Attempts to meet the control needs of the destructive narcissist are not usually successful, because no one can adequately meet these needs. To fully meet these needs calls for fusion or merger with the person and giving up your self.

As an example, my wife often gets extremely agitated when I'm driving.  She sees a car stopped ahead, and gasps or shouts "Brakelights", when there is plenty of time for me to safely stop.  I think that I realize as a manifestation of her feeling out of control, and honestly there is no reason why I need to be the one who is literally in the driver's seat. There are probably a number of other places that I don't need to be "in the driver's seat", if it makes her feel safer.

This strikes me as an extension of self issue, which is much more than just a need to feel in control; it's that she's stuck in the psychological stage of growth where everything and everyone is an extension of self, and therefore under her control. I also see her wanting to get divorced after you demonstrated that you are a separate person who is not under her control as another manifestation of this, and your doing this essentially triggered a (highly controlled) narcissistic rage.

Here is a link to Nina Brown's book, Coping with Infuriating, Mean, Critical People which is hands down THE most helpful book I have come across with regard to really understanding destructive narcissism: www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/brown2006.pdf

I also recommend Ross Rosenberg's, The Human Magnet Syndrome which will help you better understand why you married your wife in the first place, and what you can do to recover, and I wish you all the best during this difficult time.  
 

[SaltyDawg]

I agree 110% that it is all about CONTROL.  As long as she perceives that she is in control (even though professes that her intention are otherwise), all is well  (99% of the time).  However, when I trigger her saying something seemingly innocent, in an instant, poop hits the rotating oscillator, and then she is out of control (1% of the time, but it affects the other 99% profoundly).  

She is a high functioning BP most of the time; however, when she splits/rages, the more conventional bits come out.  A power struggle ensues.

To limit this insanity, setting boundaries / limits is one of the tools you must learn and CONSISTANTLY implement.

I am still a noob at setting "firm" boundaries, I am still going too quickly and have had to back pedal a bit to determine the best balance (trial and error).

When I initially set up the boundary for self care under the guidance of a life coach (going from 24/7 caring for her to 21/5 + 24/2, keeping an average of 3 hours a day for my self, to exercise and other 'me time') this caused her to threaten suicide initially.  Several weeks later, I implemented it without telling her as I could no longer satisfy my wife by doing 8 hours of a 16 hour 'honey-do' list per day; the world did not end, and it is the best thing I have done for myself in a long long time.  She actually has grown to enjoy the benefit of it, as I exercise on e-bike rides (I had a knee operation and can't climb hills or mountains, and we live at the base of a mountain) and will run errands for her at the same time, even though I have to leave a map of my exact route on the computer screen before I leave so she knows where I will be (abandonment issues) 'in case something happens'.

Looking back at my previous relationship (late 1990's) that girl was likely an uNPD-SO.  When she discarded me for another man, the 2nd time round (after I setup a firm boundary that I set where I would leave when it happened the first time, if it happened again -- well, it happened again, and I left), it was a blessing in disguise; however, I went from the proverbial 'fire' into the 'frying pan' with my uBPDw two decades ago and thought the 'frying pan' was a good place.  When the 90's-uNPD-SO tried to "charm" me back in, I was able to get a good percentage of my personal belongings back which she had kept for about half a year since she discarded me, and I wound up discarding her.

According to the "Walking on Eggshells" book that I previously mentioned, it says:
(pay particular attention to the last point)

...Seek immediate personal or professional support if your loved one does (or has already done) any of the following:

• Threatens violence or physical action; or puts a violent hand on you, even if it doesn't hurt too bad; or destroys objects; or makes you feel physically unsafe in any way.
  
  
• Takes, or threatens to take, the children from you.
  
  
• Makes, or threatens to make, false accusations of child abuse against you.
  
  
• Lies to a police officer about something you didn't do to get you arrested or in legal trouble.
  
  
• Breaks the law.
   
  
• Expects you to take part in an illegal action.
  
  
• Puts you or your family in harm's way.
  
  
• Steals money from you, or puts you or your family at financial risk.
  
  
• Routinely threatens divorce. (If they straightforwardly tell you that they no longer wish to be with you, do not hang on. Begin planning now for a divorce or separation. And do not be surprised if they blame you for instigating the breakup.)

Up until this point, I generally let her have control on the pieces that she wants to control on unless there is a significant conflict in order to keep the peace.  However, as she is loosing control she is ratcheting up her symptoms and has added two of the above traits doubling it to 4, possibly 5 as one is implied and not implicit this month alone.  It was the 1st and last (9) bulleted items prior to September 1st; however, now it is the top 1,3 & 9 -- 3 also indicates that 2 is strongly implied, and 4 is now also possible.  So, I am pumping the brakes a little bit, but also documenting it so if she does follow through her threats of divorce with the last one at least I will have something to show for documentation instead of nothing.

Keep a bound journal (no loose leaf paper, no binder, not even spiral bound as pages can be inserted or removed, if it goes to court, the more you have documented, the more favorable your outcome might be) of all activities that go on in case she does follow through with the divorce threat.  Document, document, document, no matter how petty the thing is.  If in doubt, put it in the journal.  Use non-erasable ink.  If you make a mistake, put a single line through it (leaving the mistake legible, such as spelling).  As you finish each page, take a photograph and send it to a cloud account.  All the major free services such as Google/Facebook/YouTube/AOL/etc. have tracking mechanisms for those who break digital law (copyright, etc.) not much different than security cameras, it works in your advantage as they will have a date and time it was stored, useful if it goes to court and your wife finds out and destroys your journal.  If you want to go digital, type up e-mails and e-mail them to yourself on a free service like Hotmail and/or Gmail, and makes posts (like I am doing here), it too will have a date/time stamp on it.  I do have some background in documenting legal issues in my previous job (hence my recommendations earlier in the paragraph), this is especially important for men as the legal system is traditionally biased against us, you need to document, document, document.

I am doing this 'journaling' for my sanity, and to document, and to hopefully assist others who have the same issue that I have.  I hope and pray for the best; however, I am pragmatic, and will also plan for the worst.

I am pushing hard (mainly for my children) in order for my wife to acknowledge that she indeed has a problem (on top of the Anxiety and Major Depression she has already been [?mis?]diagnosed on and are the two most common comorbidities) -- as my 11 yo son also has symptoms of BPD & NPD - which is both genetic and environmental.  While I cannot address the genetic component; however, we can address the environment and he is in counseling, his counselor has been made aware of the situation and we have had 10 times the progress in 1/10 the time (two months with BPD knowledge over the summer break, versus nearly two years without the BPD knowledge) - in essence, a 100 fold increase and getting multiple compliments on his much improved behavior change this school year versus last.  While it might be too late for my wife to change, it isn't for him (who stops mental/personality development at 25), and the sooner she is onboard with this, the better his chances are later on in life for him, my daughter, herself, and our relationship.

Inadvertently, I am doing this kind of an 'intervention' style (much like one would do with an alcoholic) which is not a recommended style; however, if it saves my son, and my daughter, it will be worth while even if it costs the relationship with my wife.  For >99% of the time, my wife is a truly wonderful person; however, the <1% nightmare makes me wonder if our relationship is "Too good to leave,... but, too bad to stay in".  It sucks, but at 55 I am an old Salty Dawg that needs to learn some new tricks to make things work out for the best for everyone concerned.

Any suggestions?