Knowing Who is who

[zachira]

I am finding that so many people aren't who they appear to be. I do best with people who do not know my family at all or who were friends of my deceased brother who was a decent person. Most people linked to my NPD sister, BPD brother and narcissistic extended family members seem to be narcissistic just like them. I am learning a lot about making friends and who I can trust. It seems there is a kind empathetic connected feeling around healthy people contrasting with feeling unsure about myself with the people who don't turn out to be authentically nice people usually when I first meet them. I need to learn to trust my gut feelings more. I am mostly NC or LC with my large extended family and the people they surround themselves with. I am working on being the best person I can be, as that works best in connecting with the right kind of people and discouraging the wrong kind of people. I often say that you are not really friends until you see how disagreements go. My biggest challenges seems to be trauma bonding with the wrong kind of people and feeling worthy of the right kind of people. I find myself so behind in having the kind of life skills that so many fine people have. What are your experiences in knowing who is who?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zachira,

It is interesting that you are posting this question today.

Yesterday I watched this video : https://youtu.be/BLWZ8UOiMUk

I think the best thing you can do is not to wonder who is who, but to be yourself around everyone, to be authentic. Then narcissistic people won't be as interested in you, while other authentic people will be and come to you.

We need to trust our guts, this is true, we need to be true to ourselves. If we feel uncomfortable, then we can leave. Whether the source of our discomfort is the person we are with or not doesn't matter... As long as we care for ourselves, unhealthy people will steer away from us..the cleanup happens naturally as we clean up ourselves.

[Notwendy]

We talk about BPD splitting but I think people do that to some extent at a milder level. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt- almost everyone is nice to others at first impression, ( if they weren't it would be obvious to stay away) but then as I get to know them, if concerning behaviors emerge, I would be wary. So it's not an all good or all bad like a split, but if someone shows another side of them and it's concerning, we probably won't be friends.

I think it's really hard to know "who is who" in a short time. I like Maya Angelou's quote- "when someone shows you who they are--- believe them". I see this can go both ways. Sometimes I will learn that someone is generous with others, but they may be modest about it and I don't know all the things they do at first- people who are very kind and charitable often don't call attention to themselves with it. Or if someone has been cruel or selfish- I then know they are capable of that.

I have been wrong too. I met someone who was abrupt and made some odd comments ( not inappropriate but odd). Didn't think I'd like them at all. Turns out, this person is on the spectrum and has no mean intent at all. It's just that they are quirky. Then another social, attractive, and popular person I met is not trustworthy. Agrees to something and then does something else. There is nothing unusual about my interactions with either of them- we get along on a casual level- but I feel I can trust the first person and not so much the other one. My first impressions of both of them were not accurate.

Recently though, I was introduced to someone and after even 10 minutes, I felt creepy. It's like every "alarm" bell went off and it turns out this woman is very disordered. I think this is a trust your gut thing. Something about her alerted me, even not on a completely conscious level. The conversation was not out of line, but there was something about her interactions that didn't seem OK.

I think we also need to forgive ourselves if we don't see it. I think some people are that good at presenting what they want others to see. One of my friends- smart, independent- woman fell for someone who turned out to be a narcissistic player. There was no way to know this until someone was involved with him. I knew him casually and there was no way I could tell that. Being that I was married and not interested- he didn't use his charm on me, but once my friend shared her experiences with him- I could see him being charming to other women if we were in a group and he was good at it. So sometimes we don't know until we do- and as Maya Angelou says- believe them.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Zachira,

Now that I've been in a safe place for a while and my whole body is resting, I am able to look at relationships beyond those that gave me such trouble, like those with my uBPDm and my exH. I think subconsciously I hadn't realized that I usually surround myself with my safe circle of people, but that became much more apparent to me when someone different entered into that circle in the past weeks.

Suddenly I found myself to be a bit unsure of this new friendship. The gal is very friendly, and I think she is fine, but then every once in a while I catch myself saying, "Wait, was that okay what she said? Do I need to be concerned? Am I just over reacting?" I'm unsure if there's this ability to more deeply trust this person. Like you, I realize I didn't learn those skills of what healthy is like. Perhaps it is healthy and there's the allowance of knowing they're human at the same time. I don't have the answers yet, but I'm in the same school of learning. It's scary to venture out to meet new people and risk ourselves. We've good reason to be cautious.

We have come so far. We'll continue to grow and learn.

 
Wools

[Couscous]

My solution to this issue is to attend Al-Anon and try to make friends with people who have been in the program for a while and seem to have some amount of recovery under their belt.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I am a big fan of Dr. Ramani and have seen the video on authenticity. I agree with you that being authentic does make authentic people more likely to be interested in us and does make the narcissistic people less interested in us. My challenge is I show too much of myself before I find out who it is safe to be authentic with and how authentic I can be. There is nobody we can totally be authentic with, and we all have to tell white lies at times so as not to hurt another person's feelings or to put ourselves in the position of being the target of a narcissist. My experience with some malignant narcissists is they do everything they can to get even with the people who do not worship them they way they would like. There are people I still have to deal with on a regular basis who are narcissists. I have a lot of work to do on my own emotional regulation, codependency, and having healthy boundaries.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Yes, sometimes we don't know until we do who is who. My challenge is being way too open with people before I get to know them. I have lots of work to do on managing my emotions and codepency so I get to know people more at a normal healthy pace.

[zachira]

Woolspinner2000,
I have so much respect for you in how you have gotten divorced and made a better life for yourself. I agree with you that we are a work in progress. I like that you are honoring your feelings about how you feel about this gal. The biggest clue to me about what kind of person I am dealing with from the moment I meet them is how I feel inside. Do I feel like I can connect with this person and that there is some geniune empathy on their part or do I feel uneasy for some reasons I cannot explain? I find truly authentic people a joy to be around, and except for children, there are not many people who are truly happy and comfortable in their own skin, yet those who are show with their relaxed comfortable body language and genuine interest in others that this is who they are.

[zachira]

Couscous,
There are truly some people who have been in recovery for many years, from many things including alcohol, codependency, narcissistic relationships, etc., who have done lots of hard work in owning their part in whatever dysfunctional behaviors/activities they have engaged in. I find that there are many people who work in mental health who are there to fix others and not really interested in taking a look at themselves. Then I find other people who work in mental health who have done/are doing the hard work of looking at themselves so they can continue to grow into being the best people that they can be and are role models for their clients. There are people who grew up in healthy families, who are happy confident empathetic people and are a joy to be around. To gain entrance into the club of healthier people, we have to be willing to do everything we can to overcome growing up in a dysfunctional family, learn to love ourselves as we continue to move forward in creating healthier relationships with ourselves and others.

[Riv3rW0lf]

There is nobody we can totally be authentic with, and we all have to tell white lies at times so as not to hurt another person's feelings or to put ourselves in the position of being the target of a narcissist.

My question would be : are you telling white lies in an effort not to hurt someone, to be authentic to yourself? To your values? Or because of a false sense of obligation? Because those, to me, are two distincts motives and don't mean the same thing.

If it is for yourself, then you are being authentic... in a seemingly twisted way... You are doing it to be true to yourself, because of empathy, because maybe you don't see value in calling them out, or maybe because part of you know it is sometimes easier to buy peace and exit graciously, than confront and leave the door open to issues down the road.

If it is for them, by fear, by obligation, then you are not being authentic to yourself, and potentiallt setting yourself up for problems later on, or puzzles.

Few people are completely safe. But it helps to remind myself that I am a grown adult now. That whatever comes my way, I can protect myself.

I often find myself overanalysing encounters and like you, I wonder if I shared too much, I feel exposed. that's when I tell myself : maybe you did, maybe you didn't.if you did: I got you. I am grown up, I mean well, and I am smart.I will be ok and can handle anything that will come my way.

Truth is,the part of me that feels exposed is my inner child/teenager. I found out they just need to feel I can handle anything that comes my way.

A work in progress, but it helps.

No one can hurt me, unless I allow them to.and when they do, I will jump right back up. I got myself.

You got yourself too. I've followed you here, you are strong willed, you are well rounded and you mean well. you will protect yourself. You got the power and the tools. It takes energy, it is hard work to keep ourselves safe. But you have been doing it and are doing it everyday.

I don't think opening up too much is the real issue... Maybe that's just who we are...the issue is thinking opening up is exposing ourselves.it isn't. Because there is nothing wrong with who we are.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
My challenge is not meeting people where they are at. I am unusual in that I really value honest feedback from people. My therapist told me of all her clients I was the one most open to feedback and being accountable for my actions. I am well aware that most people do not want honest feedback.The ones that do, don't want it all the time. I do not like to mindread or guess what someone is thinking. I have often thanked people for telling me what they think and it often surprised them because they looked like they were afraid of how I might respond. I have learned that I can't be honest with narcissists and people with BPD because a big part of their dysfunction is not having the ability to have/accept reciprocal communications and relationships. First I need to find out who I can be honest with. A very valid test I find is to express a different point of view from them or to say no to them. Healthy people can tolerate different points of view. As a family scapegoat, I have spent too much of my life being blamed for not worshipping the narcissistic family members and their flying monkeys while trying to have reciprocal communications with them.
I am more authentic now than I have ever been while at the same time being more cautious about who I open up to, and it is paying off. I am starting to have healthier friendships and am not the magnet that I was for dysfunctional people.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zachira,

What has been your experience with trauma bonding?
From your post, I understood that you tend to trauma bond before realizing this is what is happening, while truly wanting healthy friendships.

Can you describe how those kind of friendships are or become? Is there abuse? Scapegoating? Blameshifting? Or is it some kind of uncomfortable attunement, a relationship with an imperfect person that still gets it but is not yet self aware of their trauma?

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I would say that most of my trauma bonding has been with people who I enabled by having empathy for their terrible behaviors. In the last few years, I have ended 5 relationships/friendships with people who liked me because I enabled their bad behaviors. The friendships/relationships worked as long as I listened to them and was kind about the one sided nature of the conversations. I was hurt by how they all just walked away so easily or accused me of being the problem when I insisted on having a reciprocal relationship, not just my listening to them and being empathetic. I have always valued people who listened to me, and  I had this idea that at some point that the relationships would become more reciprocal. Now I really pay attention to if a person ever shows any genuine interest in me. In my immediate and extended families, I am the scapegoat, and I have learned the hard way that putting up with how badly they treat me and others just leads to more abuse. I am working on having better emotional regulation because of in my neediness for human connection, I often overshare and jump into relationships too quickly which turns off the healthy people. Healthy relationships develop over time and there is little drama. For most of my life, I was attracted to people, that had lots of drama in their lives. Now, I enjoy the healthy people, and the calm presence they bring to the table. I still am codependent and try to help people who don't need help, and I am working on this. I also can get very dysregulated by people who mistreat me, which seems to lead to more abuse, as they thrive on dumping on how badly they feel inside onto others. I am noticing the joy I feel when really connecting with others. My biggest challenge is often feeling worthy of having close relationships and friendships. I have missed out on a lot of milestones in life, like being happily married, being a parent, having life long friends, having a long succesful career, and I can't feel good about accomplishments I don't have. I really can't look back on my life and say I am proud of it. I consider myself a survivor of some of the most difficult of circumstances; being a family scapegoat is a lifelong sorrow. I give myself credit for surviving, for having integrity, for working hard in therapy for many years, and having the courage to end abusive relationships with family and their flying monkeys.
 

[Mommydoc]

This is a great thread Zachira, thanks for starting it.

My challenge is being way too open with people before I get to know them.

I used to be like that Zachira and it made me vulnerable to people who took advantage of my naive nature.  Over time, I am still pretty open and warm with new acquaintances, with a mantra of assuming good intent with people. But I have a much greater sense of awareness and am better able to identify people who are insincere or whose words and actions are not congruent. I also try really hard not to make early judgements good or bad, and just let people slowly reveal themselves to me through their actions. And when they give me reason to doubt their intent, I am more cautious around them, but not necessarily hostile. Particularly now, post pandemic, I notice that everyone has more bad days, where they aren’t their best self, including me. I don’t want to be judged on my “ bad days” so try to extend that to others.  But I am much more observant now  and when I witness repeated negative behaviors, I am quicker to see the patterns.

Like NotWendy, I realize my initial impressions are not always accurate. Some people I really connect with early on, don’t prove themselves to be trustworthy or authentic in the long run, and other people who may be reserved/introverted may be hard to connect with initially but over time turn out to be awesome. More often than not, however, my gut instincts are good, and I trust them, but rather than going too deep too son, I try to pace myself more.

At work, I interface with a very large number of people.  Many/most are really great, but some are real snakes. Truth is I still have to work with them, it’s my job to do so. I have learned to limit my exposure and create stronger boundaries in those circumstances, to maintain a working relationship without being too trusting and protecting myself and my team. Initially it didn’t feel authentic to me, but over time, I realize by doing that, I am more effective and I also leave the door open for the other person to grow, mature, and show up more positively in the future. It  happens and if I had closed off completely or been highly defensive or antagonist, I think I would have closed off some future possibilities.

Most importantly, we all have to value ourselves, our needs, particularly our psychological safety. When someone shows they are not safe, psychologically or physically,  to be around, out of self respect and self compassion, we must take actions to protect ourselves and those we care about.

Overall, I believe there is good in (almost) everyone and try to see and seek that part of them. The snakes reveal themselves pretty rapidly if we are observant and we need to be vigilant in identifying them and protecting ourselves and those we care about. 

[Notwendy]

I also have tended to be over trusting- give people the benefit of the doubt- until they show themselves to be otherwise.

My mother is dishonest and manipulative, but it took me a long time to actually see it. I think the ability to see things with "rose colored glasses" may have been a way to deal with how we grew up? I think minimizing abusive situations is one way to cope.

In many ways though, there were good things. We had enough to not worry about food, or housing. We were cared for materially- school, clothes and when Dad was available, we had good times together with him. So it's hard to say it was bad but if discussing the way BPD mother behaved, there's no way I'd expose a child to that.

I think I let a lot of things slide with other people until something becomes apparent. I also work with a lot of different personalities. As long as I can see that the person has good intentions, issues are manageable but sometimes it's hard to see where the snakes are. Snakes are sneaky, and I don't think that way, so it's not always easy to see them but I think I am getting better at seeing them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think the ability to see things with "rose colored glasses" may have been a way to deal with how we grew up? I think minimizing abusive situations is one way to cope.

I definitely agree with that. This ability gave us the resiliency we needed to survive, but then it might also be what makes us give too many free pass to abusive people. I think better boundaries and healthy self-parenting is probably the best way to protect ourselves.

MommyDoc, beautifully said, and a great objective to adopt for myself. I resonate with the balanced approach you have... Not to judge too harshly, to remain aware of patterns, to protect yourself without hostility, in an effort to recognize anyone can change.

Thinking back on how I used to be when I was at my most traumatized, I wasn't very safe to be around. Many people simply shut the doors on me, and I don't blame them. But I did change. An awful lot. I am nowhere near as jealous and harsh as I used to be. I actually developped the capacity to be genuinely happy for others, without feeling a need to compete. I am simply not the same person I was. And so : I now feel it important to recognize others can change too. As long as I have good boundaries to protect myself from their trauma, I can healthily stay around, emotionnally disengaged, but available when they are ready to come out their traumatized shell and take responsibility for themselves.

Reading all this though, I have to be honest that I don't have many friends. Just one and I had to leave the province we met in. We are business partner now, but we will seldom see each other in the future. My best friend definitely is my partner... I find I fit the description Notwendy gave... I am a bit socially awkward. I mean well, but I am quite direct. Usually not to hurt though, I just see many things as self-evident and I am often genuinely surprised when I see the person hadn't realized it, and are shaken. I also answer people that are mean to me. If they want to be critical, I will reroute their shame to them. Not in a hostile manner, but because it is my duty to protect myself too. Before though, I simply always kept to myself and never truly tried to get out there.

All in all, I am deeply introverted and a bit awkward. I now know, because my stepmother who is a psychologist made me realize it, that it might simply has to do with cognitive power. She said I was gifted, which was clear to her. That she had to focus on me when I was talking, because I switch fast from one thing to another. There are links evident to me, that takes a bit more time for her to find, so she feels moved from one side of a sea to another and it feels sometimes tiring to her. So I imagine that for people that aren't used to it, I can seem awkward. I also tend to overanalyse everything and everyone, which makes it awfully difficult to be in group settings and to meet people. It makes it complicated for me. Which resulted in me being called "different" often as a teenager by teachers and students alike. I then developed an exclusion schema and I only this year realized why I had had such trouble connecting with others.

So I guess, while I am not on the spectrum, I do appear different to others, which makes it incredibly hard to connect in person than in writing, online  . I am getting better at it. I slowed myself down. I now listen more, and will keep most of my answers for me. Not because I am dishonest or inauthentic, but because I am now aware a lot of people won't necessarily understand what I mean.

I also hope I don't come accross as self-absorbed here. This is something I seldom talk about, because I am aware it unnerves some people. My stepmother is the first one to recognize it, to have openly talked about it with me (she thought I had always knew, but I just knew something was odd about me and only put it together because my husband kept asking me to get tested), and the real gift she gave me was that : she wasn't deranged by it, it didn't made her feel bad about herself. It helped me feel less alone.

And this is why I now know I have to listen more than I talk around people... Listening more also helps see the patterns better. So I am also getting better in protecting myself, which truly only came with the fact that I finally know myself.

If we don't truly know ourselves, then we can't manage ourselves, then we can't protect ourselves either.

So I would say that self-awaress, Zachira, is key in protecting ourselves in the end.

And I think, feelings like we are achieving things can help our self-esteem, it is true, but many people just achieve things because they are in flight mode. They want to achieve , to accumulate, to fill a void. You are better served giving yourself credit for your awareness, authenticity and integrity than for a career and a big house. Careers can help, but they should remain a tool, a service to our community, to truly serve our need for authenticity. If you already are authentic, then there are other tools to raise self-esteem than a career.

As for having missed out of being a parent.. my stepmother had no children either, and she is a remarkable person. Truly. This does not define her. I know there is a hurt she carries with her about it, to not have been able to experience motherhood, she had to grieve it. But it didn't stop her from helping people, and valueing herself for what she is. And she is amazing. She found her passion (healthy nutrition) and give conferences about it and how it links to psychology. Interesting subject.

Another acquaintance of mine did a lot of non-lucrative work with homeless people and abused children. There are many tools out there to build something outside of us. The real work , the hardest, is inside though. And you are it. Authentic and aware.  

[zachira]

I appreciate all the replies. I think you are all right about how we grow up seeing people with rose colored glasses. This is how we survive childhood and is what allows a child to put the needs of the parents above their own and to love a parent unconditionally despite the apparent lack of reciprocity. The more I distance myself from my dysfunctional famly members and dysfunctional people in general, the more I am able to see people for who they are earlier, and am more able to more easily distinguish between authentically kind people and people who are projecting a false image of being a decent person. I keep hurting as I become more aware of who I need to cut out and the backlash I face when distancing myself from people who are unable to have healthy relationships. I have to remind myself that part of being able to love and have healthy relationships is that it means getting hurt and disappointed sometimes as we don't always get to be around the right kind of people, and everybody has a side to them that can be hurtful at times. There are no perfect people. I agree  that self awareness and taking time to get know people are key to protecting ourselves in forming healthier relationships. We are all a work in progress.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I was thinking of this thread earlier.

I went outside with my children. There was a bunch of kids playing that my daughter gets along with, and the neighbors were there. And I thought of this thread, because I find that navigating those relationships are very hard...

And I think this is how I know who is who...

Now that I am older, I realize that with some people: it was always easy. I could talk, be opened, joke around, and it felt comfortable. There was connection. The key is : I didn't need to think about it.

When I meet with my friend and business partner : there is never any uneasy feeling. I always leave the meeting feeling good, and I know she does too. Even if we talk about nothing..because emotionally, we connect.

With my neighbors, even if everything looks great on the surface, even if nothing stood out : I am left thinking about the meeting for multiple hours... And I think the key is emotional connection.

There is no emotional connection with them.

They come from a class of people where they buy a lot of goods, they work, they achieve. And when I am with them, no matter who I I dress up like, I feel judged. I used to dress myself different ways to fit in. Thankfully, I don't do that anymore. I am now aware that I will be judged and looked down on by them anyway. For my choices. For who I am.

What I am likely triggers them. Because I only have one car. Because I don't value things. Because I am more in sync with my emotions... I am not trying to take the higher moral grounds here, but I just don't think anyone who seek to cumulate things is healthy emotionnally... The big house, the big boat, the truck, the car, the pool, the RV, the Tesla... Who needs all this? It's filling a void... Then they work none stop to pay the bills, and they don't even get to enjoy it.

I am in a neighborhood I truly don't fit in right now, and I miss my old neighbors in the Maritimes. They were real people that valued connection. And I miss them. I remember one of them told me : "you just take that nice new Maritimer smile you learned here with you and everything will be well."


As it turns out, a smile is not enough.

A few years ago, I would have try to adapt, I would have tried to please... but now I know better... With my friends, the safe ones, I don't need to try to belong... I just do. Even in differences, there is safety, there is no judgement. So I won't change for them, and I will not even try to belong... I already do.

And even if the "exclusion" feels lonely at times... I am likely less lonely than they are in the end, because I stopped excluding myself. And while I only have a few people I connect with, husband, children and only one friend : as least it is a real connection.

But all this to say... I think those people are emotionnally shut down... And this might be the big difference, and one of the key in knowing who is who.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I think you hit the nail on the head, that with some people there is no emotional connection. I notice how comfortable and enjoyable, it is to be around people with whom there is a peaceful presence about them, and I feel we see and hear each other. With dysfunctional people like some of my family members, it does not matter how hard I try, there is no emotional connection, and I end up looking like a needy deranged person who is easily scapegoated when I keep trying to connect with them.
My challenge now is to own my internal distress and not inflict it on others. When I am distressed, I tend to have poor boundaries, and open myself up to the wrong people, and turn off the right people if I am too overwhelming. Lots of work still to do on learning emotional regulation skills, which are especially a challenge, because I never even had the basics: My mother with BPD left her babies in the crib crying and did not comfort them. For a lot of people from dysfunctional families, the traumas begin later around age two, when the toddler starts to have melt downs, and the baby is no longer a baby.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zachira,

I don't know... Starting at my mother's generation and under, there was and still is this idea that a baby has to be able to self-soothe... So people let them "cry it out". My mother admitted doing that with us as well. Just let us cry it out. I think I was lucky that she had to go back to work when I was 6 month old, and put me with a woman that lived on our road, who had a handicapped child and stayed at home with her. When I think of this woman, I feel safe. while with my mother I felt mostly scared and lonely.

I understand when you talk about owning the distress... Yesterday, with my neighbor, I felt emotions that were pushing me to want to react, but I willingly decided to smile and stay silent. Being in contact with people who "react" to their emotions, does incite us to "react" too.

We are emotional primates. When talking with my H, he mentioned that those people just "react". If I say something, they don't really listen, they just need to "up" me.

There is an underlying competition because they lack the capacity to self-regulate and are looking for outside validation for anything and everything.

It's not that I don't feel jealousy, or competition, it's that when I do now, I can self-soothe and focus on the inner part of me that is genuinely happy for the other person.and the more I did that, the less jealousy I felt to the point now where I don't feel it anymore. But I can now recognize the triggers in others...and that they are in reaction mode, as opposed to action mode.

It's not that they are bad people,it's that they are not aware of their emotional world... And so can't connect.

We all feel negative emotions, but we can choose to stay present within, and not react to them. It is only possible with deep self-awareness.

I wonder why it is that some people keep reacting all their life, why they can never listen and look within. What is it that made us self-aware? Those people don't all have PDs... Is it the way our society is built? Our cultural values? ...it has to be.

[Couscous]

My H’s mother told us that she left him to cry because that’s what the “experts” said you were supposed to do. The result is that he stuffs his emotions and truly does not notice them. I can tell when he’s upset before he can, and usually have to bring it to his attention, and even then it usually takes a good few minutes before he finally realizes that he is upset.

I think most people even with non-PD parents learn to suppress or repress their emotions — which is essentially the goal of traditional parenting approaches.

[Riv3rW0lf]

My H’s mother told us that she left him to cry because that’s what the “experts” said you were supposed to do. The result is that he stuffs his emotions and truly does not notice them. I can tell when he’s upset before he can, and usually have to bring it to his attention, and even then it usually takes a good few minutes before he finally realizes that he is upset.

I think most people even with non-PD parents learn to suppress or repress their emotions — which is essentially the goal of traditional parenting approaches.

But then, isn't your H also very enmeshed with his mother, with covert emotional incest? Not feeling his emotions, not being aware of his own needs, is likely the result of this covert incest more than the cry it out. I don't condone cry it out by the way, and it surely didn't help...

This being said, I definitely agree that in our culture, we expect children to control themselves and to know what to do with their emotions much faster than they are able to without guidance and support.

I My daughter started preschool this year...from what I gathered from my daughter herself, the daily reports, and her two teachers: she has been doing amazing. She is friends with every one, she is empathetic, she can name her emotions and say why she feels this way. She is 4. I am quite happy to witness she loves school and is doing well there. Despite thisz her teacher wrote on her "bulletin": "she is doing great but she has strong emotions and doesn't always seem to know what to do with those." I honestly wondered why she even felt the need to write that? Is it "out of norm" for a 4 years old to need guidance on how to manage anger and sadness? I mean... I am aware my D is likely HSP, she checked all the boxes of the highly sensitive infant and toddlers from Dr.Sears book... So yes, when she goes through an emotion, it can get intense.

I just mean the comment was odd, from a teacher with experience with children. she is doing amazing, but she has trouble with big emotions...I mean..duh! Weird society...

So I think you are absolutely right Couscous : we live in a culture that is uncomfortable with emotions, and we ask our children from an early point to repress their emotions... Leading to what we see now... Emotional disconnection, anxiety, and insecurity...

I think I need to start another thread about all this... I find it hard to navigate emotions and feelings with my four years old... Especially in today's world and culture... Managing expectations, balancing validation, support while helping her owning her feelings, getting them under control, and responsabilize her... It's hard.

[Couscous]

Managing expectations, balancing validation, support while helping her owning her feelings, getting them under control, and responsabilize her... It's hard.

I think you might like this interview with Gabor Mate that addresses this exact topic. It’s the 4th one on the list, and I just noticed that her latest podcast is about sensitive children!

https://authenticparenting.com/podcast

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thanks Couscous, I listened to it. It's interesting, my stepmother told me about Gabor Mate's work, she thought I would like it. I did. Will look into his books.

[zachira]

Still not doing so well with some of the people I have attracted as friends. Recently I have had two friends I made in the last year accuse me of some pretty bizarre stuff. Got lots of work to do on being the kind of person who knows how to attract healthy friendships and relationships, and setting strong boundaries with people who really are not safe to be friends with. Have made some friendships with the right kind of people.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Still not doing so well with some of the people I have attracted as friends. Recently I have had two friends I made in the last year accuse me of some pretty bizarre stuff. Got lots of work to do on being the kind of person who knows how to attract healthy friendships and relationships, and setting strong boundaries with people who really are not safe to be friends with. Have made some friendships with the right kind of people.

It's interesting that you seem to think you have power over who you attract toward you. You might already be the kind of person to attract healthy friendships... Attracting damaged, traumatized or abusive people might just be inevitable.

I think it says more about you that you keep putting yourself out there despite the hurt, in a good way.

All this to say: I think you will always attract those people, because those people are attracted to healthy people too... Key might just be to recognize them earlier, like I think you mentioned earlier... Trusting our guts, instead of "people pleasing". Listening to the faint voice that doesn't feel quite well with them, even when everything looks ok on the surface to anyone else.

But to think you have to change to stop attracting them, is putting you up for failure, because this is not your fault .. it just is society.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for your wisdom. You are right: I got to keep putting myself out there and recognizing earlier who I need to put up stronger boundaries with. I generally am interested in all kinds of people. I like to listen more than most people. At one point, I was having to let go of people who I listened to for many an hour without them ever asking me one single question about myself. When I tried to talk a little about myself, they turned on me, were narcissists for sure. Yes, we do attract people who are healthy and unhealthy because this is part of being out there, involved in life.

[Couscous]

I like to listen more than most people.

This is why this is all so tricky, because we have no frame of reference for what is a “normal” amount of listening to do.

My H and recently met a couple, and what struck me after our first meeting me was how the man asked us no questions at all. Then the next time we met up I observed multiple additional red flags for narcissism — and it was pretty obvious that he is extremely controlling.

So perhaps looking out for red flags the very first time you meet someone could help.

For me I’ve decided that it’s far too early in my recovery to even attempt real-world friendships and I’ve been going to various recovery groups, like Al-Anon, ACA and SMART recovery. I’m going to attend a Refuge Recovery meeting next. They are helping me feel less isolated and giving me a feeling of being part of a community, even though I still haven’t attempted to befriend anyone at a meeting so far.

[zachira]

Couscous,
I agree it is hard to know what is a normal amount of listening. I agree it is a big red flag if a person asks nothing about you. I am interested in people and ask lots of questions, which makes them want to talk to me. I think a good rule could be that if after 15 minutes the person shows no interest in me, than it is time to end the conversation, unless this is a long time friend in which we like to tell long stories or talk a lot, yet at other times the friend allows me to talk at length and shows a genuine interest in what I have to say.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So...

I was reading this morning on self-centerdness. I was trying to uncover the root of my father's egocentricity, only to realize that I had been very self-centered myself up to the moment I had my children. Anyone else experienced this?

Like having children finally forced me out of myself? And enabled me to finally truly connect with another being, other than my cat.

I read an article that stated self-centerdness appears as a result of loneliness, as a way to protect oneself from the pain. Having learned that connecting with others brought only pain and sorrows, being taught that our needs don't matter can lead one to become self-centered as a way to protect themselves.

Self-centerdness would be at the root of most disorders including anxiety, rumination, depression (and of course PDs like borderline, narcissism, histrionic, ...).

And it hit me that... Whenever I don't feel quite well, if I am tired, or if I don't trust someone, I do switch to a more self-centered way of being and talking. And only find myself to be truly altruistic with only a chosen few I really trust... My stepmother, a very few friends, my husband, my two children.

I wonder if others are not "reacting" also to my self-centerdness, leading to the feeling of exclusion I sometimes feel with some people.

As an example, when I am with my neighbors outside, I can hear myself talking in a more self-centered way. So either I am protecting myself from something I sense from them, or it is my trauma, and simply because I don't know them that I act in this way.

In comparison, my stepmother always seems focused on the other, the person she has in front of her. She will talk about her and give her viewpoints, but you can sense she is focusing entirely on you when she is there. She achieves that with seemingly everyone, while I can only be in that state with few people...

With my BPD mother, I become VERY self-centered, leading to anxiety...

Anyway... I could go on an on, but I think I am going in circle at that point.. I think what I am trying to say if that I would like to try to shift my focus onto others now... Like... At all times. Remaining within, but focusing on them during conversations... See where it leads.

Anyone else relates to this?

(Links to the main article)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/evolution-the-self/201608/self-absorption-the-root-all-psychological-evil

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I have struggled with being too self centered at times. I made the decision a few years ago to focus mainly on others. This has not worked for me when I attract people who never ask about me, and later get abusive when I insist on some kind of reciprocity in the relationship. I used to turn off a lot of people by being too needy. That happens less now though at times I see myself with healthier people being too talkative, and I think I am looking for the attention I never got as a child. My intentions now are to continue to work on emotional regulation, connecting with self and others, while setting healthier boundaries. My key boundary right now is if another person does not ask anything about me at some point than it is time to limit the interactions I have with them. Another key boundary is not to disclose too much personal information about myself in the beginning of a relationship/friendship.

[Couscous]

RW,

If you take a look at the chart I’ve linked below, you’ll see that in order to for our social engagement system to be activated (green zone) we have to feel safe. When you grow up around unsafe people you tend to be wary of new people until they have proven themselves to be safe. It is just not possible to do all those things your step-mother seems does so well when one in a sympathetically aroused state, which is the state we default to when we don’t feel safe.

https://equusoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Neuroception-Curve-2021-2048x1366.jpg

[Riv3rW0lf]

Couscous,

To be fair, my stepmother had to walk the other way. Being altruistic is second nature to her, she was brought up to be completely selfless (which was something she has to work on) and is a clinical psychologist... She also told me she had years upon years of therapy herself within which she had to work on finding her inner safety and be more self-centered herself.

I guess this is what I am truly aiming for... To feel safe and see others more for what they are... Be less nervous, be less self centered. Anyway, I agree with you it all relates to our feeling of safety.  Surely we can reprogram our brain to feel safe.

[Couscous]

We totally can re-train our nervous systems. I have heard that for PTSD you need to do a nervous system regulation practice of some kind for 20 minutes per day, even in four sessions of five minutes. Now, if only I could find a way to remember to actually do this…

I think I am going to stick a sign on my bathroom mirror right now. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I just searched Nervous System Regulation Techniques   looks a lot like self-care? Did you have a specific technique in mind?  

[Couscous]

RW, I have found that regular self-care only goes so far. I spent some time trying to get definitive answer as to how to retrain the nervous system last night, and rediscovered Clinical Somatics, which I briefly looked into a year ago. At the time I didn’t realize that it was a nervous system retraining program.

https://somaticmovementcenter.com/anxiety-muscle-tension/

In addition to doing a longer daily practice like somatics, I think it’s also important to take frequent grounding breaks throughout the day to remind ourselves that we are safe. I’m thinking of setting a reminder to go off every hour and do a 1 minute grounding exercise. This could be as simple as cuddling my kids or singing.

There are also grounding techniques one can do unobtrusively, like softening the gaze, and I wonder if it might help to do these during social anxiety inducing situations. I am going to try to experiment with that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5xVVFOsf2I

[khibomsis]

Yes, having been born with PTSD, and many early childhood adverse events. it is only in my early sixties that I am able to start feeling what it is like not to have PTSD aka safe. @Cat Familiar recommends finding a space inside yourself that feels safe and I have found it invaluable advice. @Gagrl saved my sanity with alpha waves, and I use this one to this day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzMmJ-YD2BE

I also chant, and this one, recommended by my expwBPD has really helped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isXLBHCDo4Y

When I am on my A-game 20 minutes chanting and 20 minutes workout in the morning leaves me feeling great. Wonderful combo of fine tuning brain and then topping up with endorphins and it keeps my anxiety levels a lot lower during the day.

Since I started these routines I have gotten to the point where I can feel anxiety levels rising (vs a constant presence). Certain times during the day seem to be very consistent -being born with PTSD means you wake up in the morning in a state of anxiety because you are afraid at what the day will hold, for instance. So I make a plan to do some extra self-care during those times.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

It is great to read all this advice, thanks Couscous and Khimbosis, I will check all that out... It resonates a lot with me, the waking up anxious.

I've been sick the past few days, and awfully tired, which might explains why I lost my footing this heavily concerning my children and how I parent them (again). I also need a lot of cardio to help regulate myself, and being sick means I haven't been able to do it, and the walks are simply not enough. But alas, there is a light at the end of the tunnel ! 

Also Khimbosis ! Yes ! about the safe place within ! I found it, and I realize not I truly need constant monitoring of myself. Also definitely yes to the increase in anxiety. It happened just earlier...

I will talk about my neighbors yet again... I challenged myself. Went outside WILLINGLY to try a new "defense"... I focused on them, mostly, and didn't talk about me... Not really. When I did, it was more general observations than ME and what I go through... It felt great to not be self-focused. It seems to work for me... Not talking about myself, putting the focus on something else, be it general observations or them, truly seem to be a beautiful protection for myself. I don't expose myself, and they enjoy talking about them. win. win.

One of them (the guy), still tried to bait me on one of the general observations I made about the stigmatization of stay at home mother in our culture and how it was different in another province I lived. He said : "You fought so much to work, I don't see why you would want to stay home now!" (and it was emotionally charged). I simply looked at him, laughed and said : "I? I don't recall personally fighting for that. I was born in this society, same as you. No wrong of bad choices here, just observations." And I left to play with my 18 months old... I was so proud of the way I handled him.

Then she (his wife), said something about "I hope I didn't make you feel this way! I really don't judge..." and I simply answered: "how someone feels inside has nothing to do with anything anyone else does... Don't worry, not blaming anyone here, I take responsibility for my emotions, whatever they are." Stopped her right there.

I was genuine. This is truly what I thought, and I didn't keep it for myself.

Yes, I don't fit it. Yes, they were surprised, and felt more comfortable talking between them (two neighbors and the husband), but I simply didn't care tonight... I was just.. in the moment, there to observe. It didn't feel personal, like it did last time. I was connected to my safe space..

So... keeping it to general observations and focusing on them seems to work for me in not being triggered for hours after spending time with "strangers".

[khibomsis]

Hey, RW, glad to help! Sorry to hear you have been ill, and I hope you have managed to take some self-care time. The mornings are the worst, hey, alarm clocks will start my day in a state of flat panic, so I try to do without them when I can. I find if I go to bed early enough I can wake up in time on my own.

Inherited PTSD is difficult if you don't understand it. I explained to my then therapist once that it is not as if we first had a 'normal' and then had some trauma to set off the PTSD. I never had a normal. I did not know what it was.   I learnt to cope with what I had and that helped me survive but doesn't always make me happy. So this thing of finding one's way to safety is really a self-training. We are teaching ourselves what should be normal for us.

Once one finds a safe groove it becomes easier to be radically genuine. @Sinister Complex refers to it as outcomes independence. Since I stopped caring about how I impress other people and started caring more about how they impress me, it has become much easier to be authentically myself. Take me or leave me, but what you see is what you get. It is so liberating.  Can't say I am very popular socially, but I would rather you hate the real me then love the pretense.

And yes, when people consistently trigger me then I have learnt to keep my distance. The reward of taking the time and making the effort to be well is that one is loath to throw that away on somebody else's dysfunction.

Hang in there dear. It gets better.
 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Inherited PTSD is difficult if you don't understand it. I explained to my then therapist once that it is not as if we first had a 'normal' and then had some trauma to set off the PTSD. I never had a normal. I did not know what it was.   I learnt to cope with what I had and that helped me survive but doesn't always make me happy. So this thing of finding one's way to safety is really a self-training. We are teaching ourselves what should be normal for us.

Once one finds a safe groove it becomes easier to be radically genuine. @Sinister Complex refers to it as outcomes independence. Since I stopped caring about how I impress other people and started caring more about how they impress me, it has become much easier to be authentically myself. Take me or leave me, but what you see is what you get. It is so liberating.  Can't say I am very popular socially, but I would rather you hate the real me then love the pretense.

This is beautifully put.

I also love the way you express it, being "radically genuine". It does feel like an all or nothing thing. When I can find this inner safety, I hear myself say things that are so far off what the traumatized me would say (or not say). I become a bit more blunt, and I can suddenly fend for myself, but not in a mean way. Like a gentle parent redirecting the dysfunction without blame or judgment. And what dysfunctional teenager like a loving parent around, no wonder we are not popular in that state !  

It seems this safety, being comfortable, does trigger others and open the doors to projection though... Or no, the projection always happens but suddenly we can see it. When I am in that state, it seems like many people starts assuming I am a certain way or another (you look bored, you look unnerved, etc. when I feel calm), like I become some sort of mirror for their own dysfunction, just by being there, but I can be aware of it. Have you experienced that? They are looking to 'connect', but it becomes easier to realize they truly don't see 'me'. That they just see an extension of their inner world, of the assumptions they already made about me, if that makes sense.

I also find my neighbor in particular (so personality types like him) gets particularly triggered and seems to want to pick on me... But yesterday I finally really grasped that he cannot hurt me, because I see him. I see the traumatized child looking to feel better by making others feel bad, and I find myself an observer of the dysfunction more than a player in it... I was in the moment, and I loved it.

If only I could be there most of the time... ! A new goal... aim to be this observer more often... be in the moment, and be safe. At least, now I know it's possible.

The reason I talk so much about my neighbors is because I decided to use them as training grounds. , so far so good for desensitization.

Reading your post a couple months back, I would not have understood what you meant. Now I do. Working on ourselves is hard work, but so worth it.  

[zachira]

Great link below to article about narcissists and lying:

https://goodmenproject.com/sex-relationships/narcissists-dont-lie-they-create-alternate-realities/

I have been taken in many times by people who are confident about lying and promoting a false image, like many of my family members.

[khibomsis]

RW, thank you for the appreciation, but it is not my idea. Comes from a workshop on validation and has stuck with me as the ultimate goal of self-healing. Just being myself. Deal with it. Such a lovely concept!
The workshop is here:https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating
 and I guess the idea is that when we give ourselves grace - the ability to accept ourselves so fully and wholly that we live ourselves in daily mindfulness- then it becomes easier to give others that same grace. DBT is based originally on Zen Buddhist tenets. It works.
 

[Couscous]

This thread reminded me of the book "In Sheep's Clothing", which is on my reading list: https://lifeclub.org/books/in-sheeps-clothing-george-simon-jr-phd-review-summary

[Couscous]

Patrick’s Teahan’s latest video is about this exact topic, titled: How to trust yourself after narcissistic abuse. I thought it was very helpful. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hoHy4UWhXZQ

[zachira]

I am realizing I really get in trouble by being too authentic with unsafe people while at the same time often having really joyful experiences with people who are genuinely authentic most of the time. I have often been complimented on my integrity. It seems that so many people these days have their false persona that they put on for many reasons: to stay safe, to get what they want, to manipulate others. I am working on staying calm, so I am more aware of what is going on, and able more readily to make safer decisions on what level to engage with people.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zachira,

Could I ask what you mean by "getting into trouble" by being authentic with the wrong people?

[zachira]

Getting into trouble by being authentic with the wrong people seems to mean that they can abuse me and other people similar to me. For example, I have had some narcissists lie to me about some major financial and legal matters, and other things. I believe it was all about controlling me and promoting their agendas without any remorse about hurting others. I have found some of the smear campaigns were about that I am not following in line with being the family and/or community scapegoat. I have seen many family and community scapegoats do all kinds of kind generous things for the family and friends and community, and never get a lick of credit for it, just ongoing malicious gossip about what terrible people they are. I need to save myself for the people who are respectful to others and have integrity, and keep up my guard without being fearful, calm and grounded instead.

[zachira]

Yesterday I spent some time with two different people whom I find emotionally soothing to be around. One is a woman who is empathetic and genuinely interested in others. The conversation is deep and goes back and forth. The other is a man who was walking his dog , and who is present in the moment as he enjoys his time outdoors with his dog and the people he meets along the way. Last night I slept so well. I have noticed this a few times before: how soothing it is to be with certain people. It used to be I was bored with people if there wasn't any drama and I was one big piece of drama myself, incapable of self soothing or being soothed by others. Things are going to continue to get ugly with some of the family members and their enablers as I become more and more my own person, and am able to feel less and less like a victim while more calm and collected when they try to get to me angry and reactive when they are abusive to me and others.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Quick poll.

Just touched base with a friend of mine. Tried talking with her a couple weeks back but ended up overly tired and had to cancel. I told her I was sorry, that it had been a crazy time for viruses and bacterias, that my children especially had been consistently sick, and that my son in partcular was just getting better from scarlatina this week (lasted many days still not completely over).

I wasn't looking for pity or anything, but her answer kinda left me dazed a bit.

She answered : "Anyway I've been sick too with COVID since last Monday. Children under 5 were also always sick pre-lockdown too!"

Now, she is usually not the kind to be angry about not being able to talk on the phone. I kinda felt her answer was invalidating. And I realized she always does that. And I only notice now... maybe because I made a friend that is actually safe? She would have likely answered something like : "Ho no! Scarlet fever? How was he? You must have been worried...". Even my brother told me :"you must have been worried to see him like that." I mean... It's not as dangerous as it once was, but the rarity made it stressful. He truly was a mess.

I caught COVID twice last year. I'm aware it can be bad for some people, although it wasn't for me. But wouldn't your friend telling you her son had Scarlet fever require a bit of empathy and support instead of complete invalidation? Am I too sensitive, or did I change and am now seeing the dysfunction? I know I would have offered the compassion I expected because I did recently, and almost always do for her... I guess I am starting to see the one-way validation.

Of course, everyone has bad days. But this is the friend who judges my husband more than I'd like too...

Anyone else found that finding safe friends opened their eyes to the friendships that felt wrong?

It's like, I've spent so much time the past few months, talking with my safe friend and stepmother that when this specific friend answered me I fell off my chair. It is so out of tune with the answers I usually have from my safe friends, that it felt really odd.

[Couscous]

She answered : "Anyway I've been sick too with COVID since last Monday. Children under 5 were also always sick pre-lockdown too!"

Yikes! That’s the kind of response I’d expect from someone with borderline traits/BPD.

I hope your son is doing better. I had no idea scarlet fever was still in circulation!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yikes! That’s the kind of response I’d expect from someone with borderline traits/BPD.

I hope your son is doing better. I had no idea scarlet fever was still in circulation!

Couscous ! Thank you for the validation and feedback.

After she answered that, I shared with her some of the information I had found on the current health conditions of children, how they are catching too many viruses and bacterias at once, leading to worsening in condition. I wished her luck with her COVID and I added I was surprised by her answers, and asked if she was maybe angry or disappointed that I had to cancel our previous phone call and hadn't found a moment to call since.

This morning I woke up to a long text stating she wasn't angry but had no interest in reading my aggressive texts because she was so sick and a mess.

It reminded me of my mother so very much. I tried to SET. Told her I could see she had seen aggression in my texts, that there wasn't any, and that I was sincere when I told her good luck with her COVID.

But yeah wow... I'm seeing her entirely differently now. Small red flags here and there I chose to unsee.

I mean, I understand, it happens that I am tired and don't have anything to give, but generally when it does, I say so to the person without invalidating. It is so easy to say : "it must have been an intense week for you. Look I'm also sick over here and feeling very tired, can we catch up another time maybe?" Her answers camw accross as a complete blow off. Like I was supposed to somehow guess she was sick and now wasn't the time to share what had been going on in my life.

And I started gaslighting myself, making excuses for her... And THIS is the problem.

This example doesn't seem like a lot, but it comes from a pattern of answers I have received over the years from her. Everyone has bad days, but I closed my eyes on things that were completely unacceptable, I made excuses... to not anger her, to support her, to be there, to not hurt her... I guess I don't want to close my eyes anymore...

I now see the judgments, the critics of the man I love, of the way I live my life. Me trying to justify stuff to prevent her talking behind my back because that's what I felt, I felt she was coming from a place of judgment instead of support. And I realize now, I don't have to dance with her at all. I can step away from this relationship.

The first time I talked with her about opening my own business, she was only negative about it, kept pushing me down. Still today when I talk about it, she scoffs and shows no interest in what I do, while I encourage her in her work decisions, career, try to lift her up... Why am I even in this relationship?

I guess it comes back to what Zacchira said. When I start requesting some kind of validation, or "return", problems arise. She cannot and won't do it. Not really the kind of person I want to give my friendship to, in the end.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
You are describing what happens to so many of us as we heal from growing up in a family that did not validate us. At some point, we notice that certain people we thought were our friends aren't, that we are just narcissistic supply to them. What has been particularly hurtful to me, is how fast the former friend adjusts to no longer being a friend, that nothing not even a long time friendship, will allow them to face the pain of looking at themselves. I have come to realize as you have that this type of friend is only interested in the friendship or whatever you want to call it, as long as they are being enabled. I also realize that they are used to just discarding people or being discarded as soon as they are required to do their part in being emotionally available to the other friend. I feel angry with my longest time friend who once I kept reinforcing wanting more emotional reciprocity with me and others ran for the hills. I have mostly myself to look at for not noticing the red flags and making excuses for her selfish behaviors. For a long time, I did not consider myself to be codependent, and I realize I have to stop enabling people because it does not help me; all it does is hurt others. Now that you have decided that validation by your friends is a deal breaker, you will continue to find so many incredible people who are capable of validating you, and those that want to use you for narcissistic supply aren't going to find you available to enable them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zacchira,

Have you noticed how those friendships started for you?

For me, she love bombed me. And I wanted to help her feel better... I thought we had an empathy connection, but I don't think so anymore. She kept pushing me in places that were bad for me, criticizing, while romantizing our connection, like she needed my attention and validation in our group of friends, I needed to acknowledge how special she was even if I didn't feel that way necessarily The third part of the cover narcissist video of Dr. Ramani made my jaw dropped. She described the start of our friendship to a T.

https://youtu.be/5Ll2lYIY-zI

Were you love bombed too? As someone with more empathy, it seems we are more susceptible to covert narcissists... As our first impulse is to support them. And we don't want to hurt them.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
You have hit the nail on the head with how lovebombing is usually how these friendships/relationships start. I have had so many friendships/relationships with over the top lovebombing in the beginning later replaced by constant criticism and contempt, never being recognized for any positive traits or accomplishments. Being starved for love: having been an unwanted pregnancy, an immediate and extended family scapegoat, along with all the dysfunctional behaviors I learned growing up in a narcissistic family system, made me an easy target for toxic people and not the type of person a healthy person could deal with for long.
I now know that there are two types of people I must avoid: 1) people who lovebomb me and later turn on me. 2) people who are cruel to others. Some people have this naive idea that they will never be cruelly treated by this type of person and often go along with the cruel person, so they stay in the good graces of the cruel person.
I am in the process of learning everything I can about covert narcissism. Dr. Ramini's videos on covert narcissism are on my list to watch. Covert narcissists often act like they are the victim. They certainly are masters of manipulation yet the red flags are clearly there, if we can allow ourselves not to be taken in by their narratives of anything ever being their fault.
I am working on being the best person I can be. More and more I am spending time with people in which we are emotionally present with each other. It is a joy to be around these people. This is a big change for me, as in the past and still in the present somewhat, I would be looking for drama and people to rescue as the way to have a friendship/relationship with them, and found healthy people boring because they did not need me.
The recovery from so much childhood trauma is like peeling an onion. It is so overwhelming to face all the hurt that comes as we discover more hurt and things we have to work on, yet the alternatives of not doing so mean having a life that can at some point become a life not worth living. From my experiences, abuse just gets worse, and never gets better. The only choice for me is to face the abuse. The hard part is to recognize I need to work on myself and forget about the abusers ever changing or having any remorse for how cruel and manipulative they are. I am now mostly NC and LC with my large extended family and their flying monkeys. It is lonely, painful, and there are moments of joy and peace more and more, like I have never had before.