Is Bettering it really a good idea?

[Goodpal]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post so I'll start w/ a little bit of background. I am currently in a relationship w/ a pwBPD and I am looking for support. My story may be a little unique because of my past experience and mindset but I feel I need support from others who understand what I am going through to help me navigate this difficult relationship.

First off, this is my 3rd go around w/ a Cluster B personality disordered person. 1st time was in high school. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I just remember that the logical side of my brain told me something was way off w/ this individual but the love bombing sucked me right in. It lasted 11 months which is pretty significant for that age.

Second time was towards the end of high school. This time I married her. The relationship lasted 2 decades and ended w/ her cheating. She fit more w/ NPD than BPD but there were definitely some cross over behaviors. This relationship actually proved to be quite beneficial for me as it forced me to grow in very painful ways. I did some deep work and was able to conclude that I had a wounded part of me that was incredibly needy for affection ever since childhood. I was raised to bottle my feelings up and didn't receive much in terms of emotional affection as a child. Working through this stuff in therapy is really the key to surviving these types of relationships, or avoiding then all together, imho.

Now onto the present, as my divorce was being finalized I connected w/ an old crush from (you guessed it) high school and before I knew it I was right back into another relationship w/ a pwBPD. I had no intentions of this becoming long term but here we are 4 years later. Again, the attraction and the love bombing is what sucked me in. I even broke up w/ her 3 times w/in these 4 years. Never did n/c during the break ups which I now see as crucial to staying the course. It was also extremely difficult to ignore the affection after having gone through the trauma of divorce (no excuse, just a reality of the situation).

Anyhow, I am now at the place where I either need to marry her or say goodbye forever. Strangely enough I feel that I am in a stronger place than I've ever been. I don't feel needy which I did in previous relationships thanks to the personal work I did. I can go either way with this decision for a whole series of reasons. There is however a part of me that is very uneasy w/ the idea of marriage. And she has all the typical issues that others have brought up on here (substance abuse problems, negativity, lack of structure, verbally abusive to others (not so much me because she knows that I was not afraid to break-up w/ her in the past), impulsivity, anger issues, etc, etc...

So now if I break up w/ her again I have to go through w/ breaking both of our hearts  which really sucks. I am very much in love w/ her regardless of the realities of this condition. In some ways I feel well prepared this time. However, I know things can get really bad really quick, especially in a marriage. I also have a desire to be w/ someone who does not have these issues. Wasn't always the case but I've grown a lot since therapy. Would kind of like someone who is on the same level. I almost feel like I am always one step ahead of her because of my own personal growth. Not trying to sound arrogant but my confidence is so much better than it was w/ the first two. Again, I think this is the key to survival in these typed of relationships. You have to have a strong sense of self.

So does anyone have any thoughts/advice for me? Anyone in a similar situation?

-Goodpal

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hey Goodpal, welcome. Glad you found the group!

Your post title is an important question -- once you know you're in a relationship with a person dealing with BPD, is it really a good idea to stay, to "better" it?

There's no "one size fits all" answer. It can depend on a lot of things -- if you share children, your religious or spiritual beliefs, finances, values... any number of things.

What you're doing is important -- to ask yourself those questions and work through the answers, no matter what... before making a big commitment.

Part of asking those questions is getting more info and educating yourself. Have you had a chance to check out our article on  "What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship [with a pwBPD]" yet?


https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

Give it a look and let us know your thoughts.

Again, really glad you're pausing in your process to think through some big questions.

kells76

[once removed]

if one is going to continue to be in a relationship (any) it is generally best to be in a "bettering" mindset.

i understand your dilemma of course, is whether to do that, or to end the relationship.

in order to Better it, it would require a thorough and honest assessment on what is "wrong" with it. on your end, on her end, and in general, between the two of you (what clicks, what clashes). it would require a realistic assessment of what can be "bettered", what might not change but can be lived with, and what, if anything, are deal breakers. both would be great exercises to explore here, with feedback.

no matter how much harmony is in your relationship presently, it would almost certainly require some "foundation work". building an environment that the relationship can thrive on.

for example, breakup threats might have scared your loved one into not treating you a certain way, but more than likely, they eroded trust; people with bpd traits inherently distrust others as it is. i was the king of breakup threats or "breakups" in my own relationship. not only do they foster distrust, they eventually become meaningless.

on the other hand, leaving, while probably emotionally harder, is less of an intellectual exercise. as hard as it is, all it really requires is motivation and commitment. this is why its the preferred option of so many. if youre anything like me though, leaving is no easy task, emotionally.

i suppose, among other things, what i would want to know, is, if you stayed, where do you see the relationship in five years? is the potential for growth and harmony and passion there?

[Couscous]

I had no intentions of this becoming long term but here we are 4 years later.

If you communicated this to her from the get go then if you do choose to end it once and for all then you can do so with a clear conscience. If it’s possible that this may not have been clearly communicated I don’t think staying out of guilt will benefit either of you.

While it is true that going NC is usually necessary, going NC is the easy part. The challenge is being able to remain NC for the long haul. Of course one “solution” to this problem is to have overlapping relationships or have a rebound relationship to avoid having to go through the pain of the break up, but this just kicks the can down the road.

[Sluggo]

And she has all the typical issues that others have brought up on here (substance abuse problems, negativity, lack of structure, verbally abusive to others (not so much me because she knows that I was not afraid to break-up w/ her in the past), impulsivity, anger issues, etc, etc...

It is hard ...  But your description above says it all.   I would never let my friend marry someone with this description.  I would tell him/her you are worth more.

Sluggo

[Goodpal]

if one is going to continue to be in a relationship (any) it is generally best to be in a "bettering" mindset.

i understand your dilemma of course, is whether to do that, or to end the relationship.

in order to Better it, it would require a thorough and honest assessment on what is "wrong" with it. on your end, on her end, and in general, between the two of you (what clicks, what clashes). it would require a realistic assessment of what can be "bettered", what might not change but can be lived with, and what, if anything, are deal breakers. both would be great exercises to explore here, with feedback.

no matter how much harmony is in your relationship presently, it would almost certainly require some "foundation work". building an environment that the relationship can thrive on.

for example, breakup threats might have scared your loved one into not treating you a certain way, but more than likely, they eroded trust; people with bpd traits inherently distrust others as it is. i was the king of breakup threats or "breakups" in my own relationship. not only do they foster distrust, they eventually become meaningless.

on the other hand, leaving, while probably emotionally harder, is less of an intellectual exercise. as hard as it is, all it really requires is motivation and commitment. this is why its the preferred option of so many. if youre anything like me though, leaving is no easy task, emotionally.

i suppose, among other things, what i would want to know, is, if you stayed, where do you see the relationship in five years? is the potential for growth and harmony and passion there?

That's a good question. I wonder where it would be in 5 years. The potential for some level of growth may be there. I'm just concerned about her getting bored w/ the realities of married life. This could be something that could potentially hurt the passion.

I would also want to separate our finances to avoid any conflict down the road. She seems open to this. Harmony and peace could be an issue to. The condition doesn't lend itself to this naturally. Fortunately, by nature I am a very calm individual which I feel sets me up for a higher level of success w/ these types of relationships. My calm can be "contagious" which I read was important.

I don't know, I guess I just wonder whether the drama and chaos of daily life is worth the effort. If you marry someone I believe you need to be committed to love that person forever, flaws and all. If not probably best to walk away and find someone else. Guess the real hard part is just ending a relationship w/ someone you love.

[Goodpal]

It is hard ...  But your description above says it all.   I would never let my friend marry someone with this description.  I would tell him/her you are worth more.

Sluggo

Excellent point. I would tell my adult kids to run. I guess I have more inner-work to do. How did I get to a place where I'm even considering this after writing that description.

[Goodpal]

If you communicated this to her from the get go then if you do choose to end it once and for all then you can do so with a clear conscience. If it’s possible that this may not have been clearly communicated I don’t think staying out of guilt will benefit either of you.

While it is true that going NC is usually necessary, going NC is the easy part. The challenge is being able to remain NC for the long haul. Of course one “solution” to this problem is to have overlapping relationships or have a rebound relationship to avoid having to go through the pain of the break up, but this just kicks the can down the road.

I did some dating when were were broken up but I wasn't ready. Always compared the new women to her, in terms of chemistry and attraction. And I was careful to not string anyone along during this time so I usually ended things after only a couple of dates. Maybe it would be easier now that more time has passed.

One other thing too is she's never really fully "split" on me. I imagine that would make a break-up a bit easier. I assume it has to eventually happen right? Maybe if she noticed me getting more invested in the relationship she may feel engulfment? I hate having to think this way.

[Notwendy]

I think there's an assumption that to "better" the relationship requires appeasing and possibly prolonging a dysfunctional relationship. It's actually about the partner learning boundaries and better communication skills- which benefits them. Sometimes this can impact the relationship dynamics in a positive way but we can not change the other person. However, the partner always has the choice to continue or leave the relationship. Since each situation has unique considerations, we don't tell posters what choice to make.

It's good that you have the insight that you tend to attract and be attracted to people with BPD and you have done some personal work on this. It's also good that you are asking yourself- do you want to make a long term commitment with a disordered person- and you have that choice. It's obviously easier to make the choice to leave a relationship before getting married/having children.

It's also good that you are aware of your "chemistry" with pwBPD and your feeling chemistry with the intensity and love bombing. However such "chemistry" also comes with the disorder. It may help to take an objective view of this- and decide what kind of relationship you want for the long run and to have a family with. An emotionally stable person may not have the same chemistry with you, but there can still be attraction. It's probably better to not compare the two personalities- they are different and so may offer different qualities.

[Goodpal]

I think there's an assumption that to "better" the relationship requires appeasing and possibly prolonging a dysfunctional relationship. It's actually about the partner learning boundaries and better communication skills- which benefits them. Sometimes this can impact the relationship dynamics in a positive way but we can not change the other person. However, the partner always has the choice to continue or leave the relationship. Since each situation has unique considerations, we don't tell posters what choice to make.

It's good that you have the insight that you tend to attract and be attracted to people with BPD and you have done some personal work on this. It's also good that you are asking yourself- do you want to make a long term commitment with a disordered person- and you have that choice. It's obviously easier to make the choice to leave a relationship before getting married/having children.

It's also good that you are aware of your "chemistry" with pwBPD and your feeling chemistry with the intensity and love bombing. However such "chemistry" also comes with the disorder. It may help to take an objective view of this- and decide what kind of relationship you want for the long run and to have a family with. An emotionally stable person may not have the same chemistry with you, but there can still be attraction. It's probably better to not compare the two personalities- they are different and so may offer different qualities.

Great points. I dated one girl during my break-up w/ the pwBPD who seemed healthy and I have some regrets that I did not stick it out. Her texts were what I'd consider "normal" I guess. No love bombing just normal conversation getting to know someone. So different from the explosion of texts I received from the pwBPD that seemed to happen right out of the gate. Feels good to write this and kind of see the differences and question myself as to why I chose the latter.

I should also mention that I am in my mid-forties so I'm not really looking to start a family again. I have grown children. So this relationship, if it continues would be more for lifelong companionship.

[Notwendy]

Something to consider for the 40's on up- the looks and chemistry may not matter as much as caring mutual support. Do you want to be in the situation of being an emotional caretaker for the long run or do you want a mutually supportive relationship?

[Goodpal]

Something to consider for the 40's on up- the looks and chemistry may not matter as much as caring mutual support. Do you want to be in the situation of being an emotional caretaker for the long run or do you want a mutually supportive relationship?

Excellent question. And the answer is wanting a mutually supportive relationship. The chaos is so burdensome I feel it physically. I always have to watch my steps.

[Couscous]

Maybe if she noticed me getting more invested in the relationship she may feel engulfment? I hate having to think this way.

Well, you don’t have to think this way but it is always tempting to avoid responsibility for one’s own actions by manipulating someone into a game of “Corner.” (What I am going to do, will be your fault (because you said it, not me).

[Goodpal]

Well, you don’t have to think this way but it is always tempting to avoid responsibility for one’s own actions by manipulating someone into a game of “Corner.” (What I am going to do, will be your fault (because you said it, not me).

Thank you for that. Avoiding responsibility is extremely tempting. I am where I am because I chose and am choosing to be. That is the truth.

[once removed]

Maybe if she noticed me getting more invested in the relationship she may feel engulfment? I hate having to think this way.

the fear of engulfment generally does not work this way.

engulfment is easiest to think of as the feeling of being smothered, but its ultimately about the fear of losing oneself in a relationship.

objectifying our loved ones, or loving them for who we want them to be, as opposed to who they are, tends to trigger this.

the way that it tends to work is that our loved ones present to us as the person they believe we will most love. inevitably, they begin to feel trapped in that role, and resent us for it.

emotionally (or physically) investing in a relationship builds security and trust.

[Notwendy]

our loved ones present to us as the person they believe we will most love. inevitably, they begin to feel trapped in that role, and resent us for it.

I think this is an important statement. I think we all put on a "mask" in certain situations. We are more formal in the workplace than we are at home with family. But how far is this more formal persona from our authentic self? I think my co-workers know me, even if they don't know me that personally, it's still me.

In a romantic relationship we put our best foot forward- we dress up, we act nice- but how much of ourselves are we showing and how much are we hiding? I think there's more separation of the persona shown to others and authentic self with both BPD and people who are co-dependent. If a pwBPD doesn't have a solid sense of self- then the mask isn't connected with that.

I agree that resentment is a part of it and also - the feeling of not being loved - when others love the persona. Then when the relationship feels difficult, there's an attempt on the partner to bring back the "person they fell in love with" and perhaps they feel rejected by this preference?

I think there's an aspect of this in the partner too. Walking on eggshells, appeasing, saying yes when actually we want to say no but fear the response, giving up aspects of ourselves- such as personal interests or contact with family- because we don't want to upset the pwBPD. That's not being honest either and it leads to resentment.

The person we are with is an entire person.

It is said we "match" our romantic partners in some way. So if we are hiding our authentic selves in a dating situation- how does that affect who we match with?

[Sluggo]

think there's an aspect of this in the partner too. Walking on eggshells, appeasing, saying yes when actually we want to say no but fear the response, giving up aspects of ourselves- such as personal interests or contact with family- because we don't want to upset the pwBPD. That's not being honest either and it leads to resentment

At the end of my 18yr marriage, I felt like an empty shell of a person...  as I gave up myself by not being honest as I was fearful of her response and anger. 

Sluggo