New break-up plans

[15years]

Hi, I wanted to start this thread, this is really all I want to focus on now, rather than trying to fix anything. I know I'm much more mature in my thoughts about a break-up now than 6 months ago. I'm calling this a break-up because divorce is a later issue, i want to focus on just setting up my new life without her first.


The first thing I would like to brainstorm with you about is the pros and cons of setting up an apartment secretly before announcing my decision? That way i would be able to set up practical stuff before moving, like beds for the kids and me, a few furnitures aso.
The risk is if I don't go through with it, I have another rent to pay.

Thoughts?

[Riv3rW0lf]

The risk is if I don't go through with it, I have another rent to pay.

Thoughts?

What worries me is that you are already entertaining the possibility of staying. You are planinng an exit, but one of your feet is still in the relationship.

I think setting an appartment beforehand can be a good idea, but it depends on your true motive for it.

Is it so that when you leave, you already have space for the children. Or are you buying yourself more time in the relationship, in the event things change?

Your thinking is close to someone who has been through severe domestic violence. And you have.  It's like you are preparing to run away. But you will never be able to do that, you have children with her.

So... I think you could also just find an appartment and leave. Maybe a furnished one. Finding beds doesn't take a long time. Setting up an appartment doesn't take a long time. Once you have one, the furniture can be bought used at a fraction of the price. If you have camping gear, you can use that to cook for a while. You need beds, a table... You don't even need a tv anymore if you have a phone or tablet or portable.

Which brings me to my question : have you really made up your mind, or are you still on the fence and buying yourself more time?

Albeit, I am aware it might be your personality type too, you really want to set properly before you leave. In this latter case, then you have do to what will work for you... But still, I am calling you out on the "if I end up not leaving". You are a victim of severe domestic abuse, I don't think anyone here doubts that. We will support you through this. Please, for yourself, because this is no way to live life, make it clear in your mind that things will not change. You know you need to leave her, you've been entertaining this idea for a while now... And like I said, we are here to support you.

[15years]

I'm thinking that I'd need only a few days, not months of setting up the place. I learned last time I was close to moving out that my mental energy was out and i wouldn't have had the energy to get an apartment after leaving. If i would have had a place to crash permanently, i may have had the strength to just let time pass until i felt stronger.


Your concern about my indecision is true, and something i think I'll need to write about when i have the time. I'm logically sure what I'd need to do now, and some of the nightmarish feeling of leaving has disappeared.

One good thing my T said about not being able to decide what way to go is that it's impossible to know what would have happened if i had chosen a different path. She suggested that i change my way of thinking from "what if X would happen if i chose the other route..." to simply choosing one route and making the best of it.

And maybe I trust myself too little, maybe I am ready to leave.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I'm thinking that I'd need only a few days, not months of setting up the place. I learned last time I was close to moving out that my mental energy was out and i wouldn't have had the energy to get an apartment after leaving. If i would have had a place to crash permanently, i may have had the strength to just let time pass until i felt stronger.


Your concern about my indecision is true, and something i think I'll need to write about when i have the time. I'm logically sure what I'd need to do now, and some of the nightmarish feeling of leaving has disappeared.

One good thing my T said about not being able to decide what way to go is that it's impossible to know what would have happened if i had chosen a different path. She suggested that i change my way of thinking from "what if X would happen if i chose the other route..." to simply choosing one route and making the best of it.

And maybe I trust myself too little, maybe I am ready to leave.

Your motive sounds good to me, if it is to facilitate your life once you leave. Maybe you don't need to wait until your mental energy is out... Maybe "healthy, not tired you" could also decide to leave WHENEVER, you know? There is no good or bad moments for leaving. You just jump...

I'm not sure what you mean by : letting time pass until you feel stronger? To leave? Do you mean you didn't leave because you were too exhausted mentally, and knowing in the background you had an appartment would have made it possible, once you would have found the strength to leave? 

But yes, I'd recommend writing... Be honest with yourself. Identify the parts of you that think staying is best, and take care of those parts to make sure they don't impede your leaving. There are not right or wrong reason for leaving someone, or choosing to stay. Only you will know when you are strong enough.

But I could see from your posts that it has been building for a while... I am glad you seem to have a good therapist to guide you through.

[Manic Miner]

Your apartment or house you currently both live, is it yours or hers? Or do you rent? I mean since you are planning to go and setup another one, it seems like it's hers. If not, are you positive she'd be able to pay the rent and be on her own?

[15years]

Your apartment or house you currently both live, is it yours or hers? Or do you rent? I mean since you are planning to go and setup another one, it seems like it's hers. If not, are you positive she'd be able to pay the rent and be on her own?

We rent so it's as much mine as hers so to speak. I don't plan on changing the payment of the rent for the first few months, i pay about 75 % of the rent. When things settle after the first storm I would inform her that i stop paying. She has reserves, so do i, because we don't own anything, so she will be fine for a year or two without income.

I'm not sure what you mean by : letting time pass until you feel stronger? To leave? Do you mean you didn't leave because you were too exhausted mentally, and knowing in the background you had an appartment would have made it possible, once you would have found the strength to leave? 

I meant that after I leave, if i already have a new place to make my home, i can let time pass at that place, until i recover from the first exhaustion from going through with the break-up. If i have no place to go to permanently, i would have to make decisions about the immediate future in that mentally exhausting situation. I don't want a lot of people around me during that time either, just me or just me and the kids. And if i need support, people can come to me. Does that sound logical?

[Notwendy]

Do you have legal advice about this idea?

Another concern is the physical violence. This can escalate during the time someone tries to leave a relationship. That doesn't mean one can't leave, but there is specific advice on safety precautions when doing so both for you and the children.

I hope you have made your current counselor aware of the physical abuse in your marriage so they can best advise you.

[ForeverDad]

One huge factor is parenting.  Many pwBPD, especially mothers, perceive their children as extensions and public validation of themselves.

Separation starts out as a time of higher stress and conflict.  Even if she is not able to parent for lengthy periods of time, she may still try to claim control and possession of the children.  And unless you have documentation otherwise such as her therapy or hospitalizations for mental health episodes, when it reaches court your concerns about her limited parenting ability may not make much headway past the usual court defaults.

So one what-if is whether she will "allow" the kids to come to your apartment.  (Reminder: don't get blocked from overnights or pressured into supervised visits.)

Without court orders "possession can be 9/10ths of the law".  I recall that when I was first separated, due to the Threat of DV in spouse's pending court case, I had possession (protection) in the marital home while that case dragged out for a few months.  But she tried to block me from parenting, though temp orders set a limit to her efforts.  There were a few months I was between orders and she totally blocked me.  My son was still a preschooler and so I didn't even have an opportunity to see him at school.  It was tough.

If she truly can't parent for lengths of time, that sad aspect is good for your parenting.  Even if she gets more parenting time than she can handle - wanting to appear to others as a good mother - she may let you have some of her scheduled time.  Though hard to predict that.

[Manic Miner]

One huge factor is parenting.  Many pwBPD, especially mothers, perceive their children as extensions and public validation of themselves.

Hmm, interesting. My W is obsessed with D's hair. She is ensuring that D always has a pristine and spotless hair style. Our neighbours even noticed that and joked a bit with me.
Of course, I can never replicate that perfect ponytail when D's with me, I'm not even trying and usually get remarks from W.

I guess, she's thinking 'what will the world think of me if D has a messy hair?'.

My W is obsessed with "what will the world think" of her.

[15years]

I'll consider the legal advice.

How about the timeline here. Is it a sign of desperation if I leave too quickly? I'm thinking January would be a good time, but two weeks from now would be theoretically possible too. Leaving before Christmas has its pros and cons.

What worries me most is my own emotional response. I feel so easily bad for her if she's not mean.

Also, waiting til I'm ready vs. Taking the big step... Maybe I'm ready but it feels like I'm not ready because it will be tough no matter what.

If anyone has a good comment about the above mentioned thoughts, please share, otherwise I'm just thinking in writing

[healthfreedom4s]

I had/have experience with setting up my own place. Let us see if it helps you in any way.

Late last year, my wife had a meltdown and kicked me and my older one out. We were at hotel for a week. I decided not to return home (like I had done twice years before) and I rented an apt (I had already checked out the location six months before during a previous episode). My objective was - to have separation as we were living all 24 hours together for almost two years with the pandemic causing me to WFH. I informed her about the second home(apt) and she was fine with it as she initiated the situation. I didn't change anything else in the equation - with me paying the bills and taking care of things at our home as well. I was visiting home every day to spend time with the kids and she was always welcome to the apt (she did occasionally visit and stayed overnight few times). Kids started spending 2 to 3 days with me at the apt. We were not intimate for few months, then we got back at it.
Fast forward a month ago, she blew up about my decision to meet a family member that was going to visit my city. And we had done the initial filing for divorce three days later. We are waiting for mediation now, which is couple of months away.
Here are my thoughts:
- There is no perfect timing for setting up the second home. BPD thinking is not linear and unpredictable. In spite of my carefully orchestrated two home setup, my wife likely would have felt abandonment at some level. It was just waiting for a reason to text it to next level (divorce filing).
- Be clear on what you want. If you want divorce as next step, the timing of this matters very little. It will be mostly our dreading of immediate discomfort. If you want separation to possibly improve the relationship, then you would want to orchestrate it well to keep the trust and work on the relationship.
Hope this helps.

[Manic Miner]

What worries me most is my own emotional response. I feel so easily bad for her if she's not mean.

Man, take this from someone that has been trying, fixing and suffering for years, for the very same reason. I *still* feel bad for her and probably will feel bad for months and years to come. It's just the way who I am. And yes, I still have feelings for her!

But there's no, NO way that you and I can fix or change our W's on our own. Zero. They need to consider themselves that they are not well, first and foremost. Then, they need to find a therapist and dedication to go there for at least a year or more. They also probably need meds and mood stabilizers.

Take this from me - during last few days, I consciously with all my being and attention tried to validate her feelings, to ease potential fears, be more supportive, accepting, understanding, caring. I tried my best to be someone whom she can trust and reach some agreement for the future.

In an instant, it all fell apart as soon as she felt threatened by imaginary fears of me covering D's wherabouts. Even if those were our neighbours. I am accused as someone that looks nice in messages, but is doing cruel things behind her back!

Can you understand? No sane mind can 'cover' all fears they have. They will snap. You give 150%. They will snap because you didn't give 195%. And so on. They are insatiable bottomless pit when threatened.

[ForeverDad]

They are insatiable bottomless pit when threatened.

... when they feel threatened.  Feelings are reality in their perceptions.

Here's a member's post which I copied to The Bridge thread.  (If you haven't read The Bridge, then please read it here too.

The Bridge
The Backyard Black Hole

[15years]

Can anybody just share their thoughts about how one can be forced to move out due to the danger of staying one more day. I mean, opposed to calmly planning an exit, just doing it NOW out of necessity.

I'm once again locked in the bathroom to protect myself from violence and protect the boys from loud and violent fights between their parents. In this very moment i would pick up the boys and run if I could (like in a zombie movie when a family member turns). Tomorrow, I'll probably hesitate again. The day after that, I'll be thinking in terms of weeks rather than days. And i forget the real danger I'm in, because she got it out of her system. Because she doesn't see herself as dangerous. But honestly, i am scared a lot of times, even though I'm getting tougher, i still feel as scared/anxious as before. At the same time feeling that good feeling of validation that comes from her being as crazy as I thought she was.

This is no way to live.

[I Am Redeemed]

Call the police or contact the domestic violence center in your area. I don't know the protocol in your country, but in the US you can get an order of protection. There may be similar processes where you live.

[kells76]

You did good to post here about what was going on -- I hope you can recognize that you were able to identify what was going on as violence and you did not hide it or make excuses for your W. Being honest and transparent is a good step. Keep up the momentum. 

I agree with IAR, get in touch with law enforcement and/or a DV center. This does not mean "you must instantly do what they say", though it can be helpful when overwhelmed to just hear someone tell you steps to take and to do them.

It's OK if on the call with them you tell them you are not sure what to do. It is also OK to say on the call that you are a man and you are feeling in danger. I don't know what it is like where you are, but some areas are more open to knowing that men can experience DV.

In fact, it would be OK to tell them exactly what you told us here:

I'm once again locked in the bathroom to protect myself from violence and protect the boys from loud and violent fights between their parents. In this very moment i would pick up the boys and run if I could

It would be OK to let what motivates you be your dad-sense to protect your children. I understand the relationship between you and your W is conflicted and off/on. So, maybe it would be "easier" or "less hard" to try different paths forward if the motivation were: I must protect the boys.

---> Can you try calling one of those options and let us know what you learn? <---

Keep us posted when you can. We want to make sure you and the kids are safe.

[maxsterling]

I can relate to much of what you are going through.

I think you need to put the DV situation and safety first.  Talking to an L is good advice, but if the situation feels immediate - you can always ensure your safety and deal with that later.  Don't try to understand the BPD or use "communication tools" - focus on your safety.

First and foremost, make sure you have a bag of important things stashed in your car, at a neighbor's house, outside in the shed - somewhere where you can access it if you are forced to leave the house quickly.  Make sure you have money on you at all times - maybe an emergency credit card in your emergency bag.  Oh - and make sure you have shoes in there (Experience talking here).  Always keep your phone charged and within arms reach, and buy one of those backup batteries. I also suggest keeping car keys on you at all times or hide one someplace outside.   

Regarding the apartment - I can tell you that in my case physical separation is important for mental clarity, and that decisions on the r/s do not feel safe unless I have a safe place to go.  Either an apartment, or family you can stay with.  I own my home - bought before I met my W, so my situation is different.  But if we were renting - I would probably find my own place in secret, get it set up, and then tell W that I am leaving and simply move out.  In my case, W knows to be calm for a while when it is just her and the kids, so for a few days at least I trust the kids would be okay.  I am not sure if you trust your W to be alone with the kids.  Once I moved out, I would take a few days to breathe, and then put paperwork in order though an L to end things.  My feeling is that once I moved out and took that step, the clarity and freedom of my own space I would not want to give up. 

From what you have told us here, it sounds like you have more than enough for an order of protection.  I strongly agree with previous suggestions about talking to a DV shelter or other social services about how that works, especially in a situation involving kids and with a shared residence.  I suggest you do this immediately before looking for an apartment.  A social worker can answer many of your legal questions.  I know years ago (pre kids) when I considered this, I was told that she would be served, and have a certain amount of supervised time to move out of the house.   A social worker will be able to answer what will happen if you rent your own place and then have her served or have her served before you rent your own place.   There could be a huge difference here. 

[15years]

Thanks for answering once again when I'm feeling desperate. She calmed down when I was in the bathroom, she always go calmer when she's alone with the kids.

Observing my own feelings now already a few hours later, after an episode like this when i feel an intense drive to quit simply out of anger, i get an emotional backlash and get sort of depressed, not feeling any hope and no lust to change the situation. This is the stage where i think i would be better off set up in an apartment, rather then beginning to search for a place. Or, maybe actually getting busy would give me motivation and i would be distracted from the overwhelmed feelings.


I have the benefit of being able to keep a bag or two at work.

One idea i have is that i go view an apartment just to see how it feels. I don't have to take it if it feels too soon.

[ForeverDad]

Be aware that if you call an emergency line or the police and say, "Last week or last month I was attacked..." then likely (not totally sure) you'll be told, "Well, it's not an emergency any more, call back promptly if it happens again or as soon as possible thereafter.  In the meanwhile seek a court order."

If you had to lock yourself to keep a door between you, then that probably qualifies as an emergency... Just be sure you don't let them assume you the big bad guy are the one to be removed.

I was there, did that.  By the time the police arrived, she had several minutes to calm herself and so they didn't see a raging spouse.  Of course you can be sure she claimed I was the one misbehaving.  They did try to remove me ("hand son to his mother and step away") but my son shrieked and clung tighter to me.  He saved me that day.  However... I did have it recorded - but in a voice recorder whose speaker didn't work - so days later I had downloaded it and played it so the police had proof which spouse was misbehaving.

[Couscous]

Would it maybe help to think of this as a trial separation rather than a break up? Once you have made the move and your Inner Child realizes that you have survived, you might just find that he calms down enough for the adult part of you to be able think clearly and rationally about how to proceed.

It also is essential that you have some kind of support system in place (not just a T). Do you currently have this?

[Turkish]

But honestly, i am scared a lot of times, even though I'm getting tougher

15years, getting internally tougher may help here and there, but as you observe, it's no way to live. You feel trapped. We get it and this is, sadly, typical in these situations. Like others have said, can you make a call to a local DV hotline? Calls are anonymous, and it isn't to force you into a decision, but they can give you options, as well as hearing from a kind and caring voice.

Given the level of violence, which you shouldn't have to tolerate and you already said that your kids shouldn't observe, can you come up with a safety plan. Take a look and tell me what you think, it will help: 

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

Do you also think that you can reach out to an anonymous hotline?

[Turkish]

By the time the police arrived, she had several minutes to calm herself and so they didn't see a raging spouse.

This tracks with the model of domestic violence that it is deliberate. Having a PD or the traits thereof aren't an excuse. I didn't experience the level you have (mostly broken things), or FD, I did experience the "switch" behind closed doors.

[ForeverDad]

She calmed down when I was in the bathroom, she always go calmer when she's alone with the kids.

Though it may be impractical I would add a red flag here... 

Though right now it is you that triggers her, in years to come as the kids grow and naturally seek to develop some increasing levels of independence in their lives, her ire will more directly include them.

It is time that you recognize that.  Sure, right now they're her "babies", but in years to come they too will be antagonized as well.

If you present it that you're comfortable with them staying with her - as a calming influence on her - what judge would separate the kids from their misbehaving mother and instead see you as the best stable and calming influence for the kids?  You and your spouse are adults.  Legally the system considers adults able to care for themselves.  On the other hand, legally the system sees the kids differently, both as incapable of living on their own and also as incapable of making adult decisions.

In short, part of your strategy needs to ensure that you present yourself as the parent both stable and providing solutions.  And sadly, your spouse is the one providing problems.  Problems versus solutions.  That is the takeaway for the legal system and those professionals providing input there.

[15years]

Would it maybe help to think of this as a trial separation rather than a break up? Once you have made the move and your Inner Child realizes that you have survived, you might just find that he calms down enough for the adult part of you to be able think clearly and rationally about how to proceed.

It also is essential that you have some kind of support system in place (not just a T). Do you currently have this?

Good point. If we weren't living together now, I wouldn't want to move in with her. It's the changing of circumstances/routines that's hard.

As time goes by, I involve more people in my support system. For example, I told my big brother about my wife's extreme jealousy. It takes time, but I'm noticing the positive effects of involving other people. What do you have in mind when thinking about a healthy support system?


I'm feeling really weak and lost right now, but it might be because I've been thinking so intensely about separation the last two weeks, I need a break.

[15years]

15years, getting internally tougher may help here and there, but as you observe, it's no way to live. You feel trapped. We get it and this is, sadly, typical in these situations. Like others have said, can you make a call to a local DV hotline? Calls are anonymous, and it isn't to force you into a decision, but they can give you options, as well as hearing from a kind and caring voice.

Given the level of violence, which you shouldn't have to tolerate and you already said that your kids shouldn't observe, can you come up with a safety plan. Take a look and tell me what you think, it will help: 

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

Do you also think that you can reach out to an anonymous hotline?

A tried filling the safety first form. A lot of it feels "not directed" at me, because I'm physically stronger than my wife, and so I don't need to curl up like a ball and things like that. However, I kept an open mind and I think I'll try to avoid certain places in the apartment when I feel a threat of physical violence, to avoid being cornered, or her having access to any weapon-like "things".

The biggest issue for me is the kids. Leaving the home with them would be messy and practically impossible while she's angry, leaving the home without them feels stupid, because I'm the stable parent.

[15years]

Though it may be impractical I would add a red flag here... 

Though right now it is you that triggers her, in years to come as the kids grow and naturally seek to develop some increasing levels of independence in their lives, her ire will more directly include them.

It is time that you recognize that.  Sure, right now they're her "babies", but in years to come they too will be antagonized as well.

You're right. And I'm feeling more and more ashamed of the situation I'm letting them stay in.

[Notwendy]

To add to what FD said. The fact that the kids are something to calm her can be a problem too. It's using them to meet her needs. However they aren't Teddy Bears. They are humans with minds of their own. They may be cute and cuddly now. As adults, she's likely to be triggered by them, that is, if they aren't so enmeshed with her they don't have a separate sense of self and are also too afraid of her.

With her disordered ideas of men, and sex, and relationships- especially teen age relationships, I fear for your boys when they hit puberty. What happens when they, themselves show an interest in romantic relationships?. I am concerned she will shame them for these normal aspects of development. They may trigger her abusive behavior.

[Couscous]

I’m not sure how wise it is to DIY this. You really need to seek legal advice:

Safety Comes First
If you are experiencing domestic violence, you should do whatever is necessary to secure your safety. If there was recent abuse or you have been threatened, you should get help from a lawyer or a resource dedicated to victims. Leaving the family home during your divorce might be the safest thing to do. Alternatively, you might consider going to court for a protective order and asking a judge to order the abusive spouse to move out. But if you go this route, consider moving out while your request for a protective order is pending.

You'll also need to get any children out of harm's way as soon as possible. If you move out with your kids, you must obtain a court order for temporary custody as soon as possible to avoid accusations of kidnapping. If you're in an abusive situation and need to leave your home with your kids, consult an attorney.

https://www.divorcenet.com/resources/divorce/marital-property-division/should-you-move-out-family-hom

[15years]

This weekend I came to think of one reason why leaving is so hard.

I don't forget what has happened, or believe that it won't happen again, BUT, when things are OK, all the bad stuff starts feeling like a fantasy, like it hasn't happened. It's hard to understand that both of these realities exist. It doesn't feel like she is two different people, because I still notice that she has the same type of thoughts, the difference is if she's dysregulated or not.

[Notwendy]

I think it's a coping mechanism. We kids experienced this too with BPD mother. When she's not dysregulating, we wonder- was it really that bad, even though we remember it.

 I think you are in the process of learning to understand more about your relationship dynamics. That you recognize this kind of thing happens- a sort of lull - in the good times where it doesn't seem so bad, even though you know something happened, is part of it. I can't fully explain it but I think it's  a part of the dynamics with an abusive person.

Sometimes BPD mother will call me, and she's so upbeat and lucid, I find myself questioning myself for a moment.