I seriously need some help.

[Turkish]

I lived with my ex for 4 months while she phoned it in as a "teen mom." One night I slept on our son's trundle and next to our baby's crib. Mommy didn't come home until 5AM, out with her beau.

[SinisterComplex]

I lived with my ex for 4 months while she phoned it in as a "teen mom." One night I slept on our son's trundle and next to our baby's crib. Mommy didn't come home until 5AM, out with her beau.

You are a better man than I big bro...I could never do such a thing. To that end you have the fortitude of a lion and balls of steel.  

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SaltyDawg]

She's telling me everything about her situation with this guy.   I am shocked by the things she saying.   She feels as if she's in sync with this guy.  She's smoking weed and drinking with him. 

The bizarre thing is that those were the things we did when we were in our honeymoon stage.   At some point when we got out of our honeymoon stage, she barely wanted to drink and she didn't want to smoke weed anymore.  We pretty much stopped doing any of the fun stuff we used to do.   

It's as if once she is bored, she also stops doing things herself.   This has to be some signs of real splitting here.   I notice that she just loves "new" things.   New cars, new place to live, new toys, material possessions...and once she's over them, she discards them. 

And her lack of awareness is so high that she absolutely has no idea she does this.   

Definitely sounds like 'rinse and repeat' just with a new guy victim.

Thank you for sharing your 'bored' observation, my I never really realized my uBPD wife does the same exact thing - I couldn't quite put a finger on that, until now.  Now that you have made observation, it really resonates with me as well, there are so many parallels on how she treats me and objects.

[engiebpd]

We had a session together with our marriage counselor.  It's intended for how to coparent from here on out.  

My ex asked me that she's having problems and wants to talk to the therapist about it.  I said go ahead.  The entire time she talked about how much she is inlove with this guy and wanted her advice as to whether or not he is committed to her.  She told her the love bombing things he says and wanted her opinion.    Our counselor gave me a "wtf" look but proceeded to answer her questions.

2 days later our counselor sent me a text  wanting to talk to me and told me on the phone that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.   My ex literally doesn't realize that she was talking about a guy she had an affair in a marriage counseling session with me.   Mind you, we broke up just 4 weeks ago, and her timeline on everything is obvious and very fast.  

My counselor told me that she thinks her emotions or mental growth is stunted and she sounded like a 15 year old.

She reached out personally to discuss with our psychiatrist because she is very concerned for my ex wife.

[ForeverDad]

Save such texts.  Often it is very hard later on to get documents or records from professionals, typically for privacy concerns (and also to avoid lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards).

[Couscous]

My ex asked me that she's having problems and wants to talk to the therapist about it.  I said go ahead.  The entire time she talked about how much she is inlove with this guy and wanted her advice as to whether or not he is committed to her.  She told her the love bombing things he says and wanted her opinion.    Our counselor gave me a "wtf" look but proceeded to answer her questions.

2 days later our counselor sent me a text saying that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.   My ex literally doesn't realize that she was talking about a guy she had an affair in a marriage counseling session with me.   Mind you, we broke up just 4 weeks ago, and her timeline on everything is obvious and very fast. 

My counselor told me that she thinks her emotions or mental growth is stunted and she sounded like a 15 year old.

She reached out personally to discuss with our psychiatrist because she is very concerned for my ex wife.

Wow, this is an incredible story. I think her assessment is spot on, although I think most BPDs are stunted at about 12 years of age.

It’s unfortunate that so few therapists seem to have any knowledge of personality disorders.

[engiebpd]

Save such texts.  Often it is very hard later on to get documents or records from professionals, typically for privacy concerns (and also to avoid lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards).

My fault, I don't know why I wrote my sentence like that. I was probably tired. She texted me that she wanted to talk and later revealed that information to me over the phone.   

[SaltyDawg]

2 days later our counselor sent me a text  wanting to talk to me and told me on the phone that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.   My ex literally doesn't realize that she was talking about a guy she had an affair in a marriage counseling session with me.   Mind you, we broke up just 4 weeks ago, and her timeline on everything is obvious and very fast.  

My wife often displays BPD symptoms while 'in-session,' it happens most of the time with me [it is very rare for a session to not exhibit one or more symptoms/traits of the borderline], the more my wife is comfortable talking about it [I don't judge her, nor does the therapist, most of the time] the more symptoms and traits she displays.  At least the T sees what I am going through, and is taking appropriate action to address it.

The behavior that you have described, I have seen many times, while not in a clinical session, it is on a Facebook group by borderlines for borderlines.  The more severe the person exhibits these and other symptoms, the more they do it, the more comfortable they are talking about it.

A true borderline, has no filter, and will speak whatever is on their mind without any thought for the consequences of their actions.  My wife has been disciplined at work for this very issue.

Their behaviors and lack of filter is truly mind blowing.

[ForeverDad]

2 days later our counselor sent me a text  wanting to talk to me and told me on the phone that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.

Similarly, my lawyer said he'd never met a crazier ex than mine.  I'm told he will use my case as an example of the most protracted divorce/parenting case he's ever had.  He just told me that the magistrate who handled my last hearing (two full days 9 years ago) is retiring and she mentioned to him recently my case was the strangest she'd handled.  He told me the story the magistrate reminisced about was when my ex asked me to bring her restaurant food to the exchange and then she claimed I was late for the child exchange.

[Couscous]

Similarly, my lawyer said he'd never met a crazier ex than mine.  I'm told he will use my case as an example of the most protracted divorce/parenting case he's ever had.  He just told me that the magistrate who handled my last hearing (two full days 9 years ago) is retiring and she mentioned to him recently my case was the strangest she'd handled.  He told me the story the magistrate reminisced about was when my ex asked me to bring her restaurant food to the exchange and then she claimed I was late for the child exchange.

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

[ForeverDad]

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

It's not quite as simple as that.  I had been married over a decade before it really went full scale dysfunctional, though it had been getting worse very gradually over the years.  I did not separate and divorce until that was the only option left to remain a parent.

It worsened suddenly when we had a child, it as as though she only then saw me as a father figure.  Unfortunately, her father was never in her life and she always said when she was 3 years old her stepfather came into her family.  He was an abuser.  So when our child was 3 years old, she was comparing me to her evil stepfather.  I could not remain with her in that state or she would have concocted something to excise me from her and 'her' child's lives.

Would I still be married today if we had remained childless?  I just don't know how much more her dysfunction and conflict would have risen.

[Couscous]

I did not separate and divorce until that was the only option left to remain a parent.

I’m sure you had very good reasons for staying as long as you did. All that matters is that you eventually got out, and you deserve kudos for doing so.

[SaltyDawg]

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

I am going to push back a little bit.  I am remaining in the relationship for a few reasons.

1.  I am staying for the benefit of my children.  If I were to leave, they would become NC - no contact when they become adults; I am performing damage control to reversing/reducing the extreme psychological [weeks away from death had I not intervened when I did] damage to moderate to severe to them.  I know me being absentee father [through my career] and left them with a mentally challenged individual [I had no idea how severe until June '22] of my uBPDw.  Through challenging my wife's narrative I have gained the respect of my children.  I have given both of them emotional tools to deal with my wife's irrational behaviors.  For this reason alone, I will not leave my children with a 'monster' until both of my children are free and clear of this situation.  I definitely feel trapped, as I have the stereotype of being a sailor, and my wife the perfect church lady -- it sucks.  I much rather deal with the devil, I do know, that the extreme situation of being divorced to a potential psychopath.

2.  My uBPDw is an accountant and valedictorian smart, she has maneuvered the money so if a divorce happens I will be financially ruined going from a multi-millionaire to someone with a couple hundred grand to live on for the rest of my life.  Not cool, but that is the reality of my situation.

3.  Most of the time my wife is a very good person; however, when something lets loose inside of her mind, she becomes a very bad person.  A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality dynamic.  I like the good version of my wife; however, I hate the bad version of my wife.  My relationship with my wife is too bad to stay in, but is too good to leave, so in this respect your observation is correct.

4.  While not verified, my individual therapist thinks I may be a codependent caretaker of a borderline which makes it very difficult to break the trauma bond [even though I have successfully done that in a previous relationship with an uBPD/NPDexgf] due to the intense attachment style of a codependent.  In other words, I have my own mental issues; albeit, not anywhere near as severe as my uBPDw. 

5.  My moral compass won't let me.  I do believe in the sanctity of marriage and the marriage vows.  I see my wife as having a mental 'sickness', and I will stand by her in 'sickness' and in health.  So, I am learning about BPD, and how to treat it, so my family can have the least amount of impact from this very impactful condition.  This reason pretty much sums up yet another reason to stay, and that is to care for my wife's mental 'sickness'.  I know I am affected by F.O.G.; however, my conscience won't let me do otherwise.

I’m sure you had very good reasons for staying as long as you did. All that matters is that you eventually got out, and you deserve kudos for doing so.

Yes, my reasons, are good, but I am still in my relationship with a pwBPD.  So, if you can't beat em, join em.  Since I cannot accept or leave the 'evil' version of my wife, it is my goal to make her self-aware of the 'monster' that she is - this has been partially accomplished, so her moral compass [which is a good one] will encourage my wife to correct her more severe behaviors.  I am also highlighting her behaviors to our couple's T who is in direct communication with her individual T, in order to address the issues that my wife is not directly aware of.  I think my wife's individual T is doing a really good job with her.

I hope this makes sense to you.  I am documenting it, primarily here and with a penpal too in a similar situation as mine.  If successful, I will definitely share a summarized version for anyone who is in a similar situation to benefit from it. 

lmk if you have any more thoughts or observations on this, as I am doing everything I can to better my own situation from learning from others, even though I am conflicted in my thinking, I am formulating strategies to mitigate the damage, and hopefully making it better.

[engiebpd]

3.  Most of the time my wife is a very good person; however, when something lets loose inside of her mind, she becomes a very bad person.  A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality dynamic.  I like the good version of my wife; however, I hate the bad version of my wife.  My relationship with my wife is too bad to stay in, but is too good to leave, so in this respect your observation is correct.

This here is key in my opinion about BPD or possibly a cluster B that is not truly devious.  I know my wife is a good person too and can be rational when she is in a normal state of mind.  

Salty, does your wife change at any moment she becomes emotional?  Does this switch happen when she gets even slightly emotional then does or say something to then further her to become even more emotional and thus becomes an awful person?

My counselor told me last week that she was surprised by this sudden change from my ex wife.  My counselor said, there are times in the session where she is levelheaded.  Our counselor came up with some strategies to bring us into a place where we were no longer arguing and fighting (which was driving me insane in our relationship and exhausting for me).  The stableness of our relationship was doing something internally to my wife.  She is addicted to friction and chaos but is unaware of it.

The problem with my ex wife with recent events is that I learned that she can be easily manipulated.   Salty, you have a rough situation as you say your wife is smart.   I have read on forums that many bpd women are quite smart.  My ex wife is not smart at all.  She jumps to conclusions and gets upset when someone tries to show logic or evidence.  She is reads deeply into astrology and anything that is just vague - usually something that is easy to understand and not specific.   She's also a feel type person "i feel this, therefore, it is this".  

She feels like she and this guy has a strong connection but is completely unaware that they're just in the infatuation stage.  We all can get into an infatuation stage with almost anyone if we allow it to happen.  She sees our temporary disconnect (because we are both exhausted from working and having a 1-2 year old baby) as if we were never in love.   She totally blocked off the memories of our infatuation stage - possibly to convince her that this divorce needs to happen.   I know that it will hit her hard later because this tends to happen to bpd women when they have time to reflect and they get into friction with new victim.

Although I will take some responsibility for our disconnect.  I overlooked it a little bit as I was spending too much time trying to make money and taking care of our baby that was going through temper tantrums.  I was exhausted every single day.  Our counselor made gave my ex wife a schedule for us to spend time together because my ex wife always feels like it was never enough.  

She needs to take accountability that she never really expressed this disconnect in counseling.  She kept saying we are doing great!   Which then makes me overlook even further thinking that she should know that we are both just tired and this is a temporary phase.   Once the baby is in school more, we would have more time to ourselves.   I was wrong!  I was vocal about this many times too but it didn't matter.

Due to my ex wife's weakness, she allowed a man to sweet talk her and then infiltrate her emotions.  She was lacking attention and this guy gave that to her.   She has become attached and obsessed over this guy.  She won't listen to me or our counselor or anyone at this point if we were to tell her that this is not real love.  Because it's her feeling, it's absolute.   Everything wrong he does, she defends him.  He love bombed her so much in the beginning and promised her this "amazing" life with him, she discarded me immediately and slandered me awfully because she needs to have strong reasons to divorce me to her family and friends - since they do not know about the affair.  

She thought this guy was rich, but he's actually not that rich.  I suspect the family  thinks something is off though.  The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.

Salty, I feel for you.  I have to consider that I am in somewhat of a lucky position if things go the way I hope it goes with my custody situation.  My child is young enough to not remember we separate.  This was at the top of my mind when making any decision.   There was a 2 - 3 day period where this guy ghosted my exwife and she even mentioned reconciliation with me.  I'm said "absolutely not".   She is now forced to be committed to this guy or find someone else - which she is also now on dating sites to distract herself from when this guy ignores here for a couple of days.  My reason for this is not a selfish one.  I know her well enough now that she will leave me at any point in our marriage and I ABSOLUTELY cannot let her do this when my child is older.  If she does this to him at 5 years old, I will be so crushed for him.   I am already crushed for him, but this timing is the best at any point.

You are a strong person Salty because I know what you are doing for the best interest for your kids.  You are strategically making it work so that your kids won't be ruined.  This is also one of the reasons why I am trying to finish off my lease with her.  It's so that when we move, my 3 year old will see us both packing our stuff and moving to different places.   I don't want him to see one of us leave all of a sudden.  I made sure to spend time with him without her and be in my room most of the time.  She sometimes tries to drag me out to an amusement park with him.  I don't want to reopen a wound.  

For me, if this separation is inevitable, this is the time to rip off that badaid as it'll be in the best interest for my baby and also myself.  And she wants it because she is in lala land with this guy.   I told her that if she were to marry him, obviously we have to be fast with our divorce and custody.  She agreessssssssssssssssssssss

[Turkish]

The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.

This sounds familiar. My ex wrote in her journals, "I wasn't ready for this!" 31 years old 

She married barely out of his teens boy-toy and they both got caught up in an insurance MLM where they'd get rich. Right. She grew to resent him soon after she realized she had become The Provider. Then mutual DV (which I predicted and told her) and a late night tearful call, "I never should have left you!" Maybe I was boring to her and maybe I couldn't compete with a young college football stud, but that's fantasy substituted for the reality of running a home with a baby and a 3 year old.

I'll give her some credit for working on her past trauma. It's too bad our family as it was had to be destroyed and also her then marriage to her dream man.

There's nothing wrong with being kind to your wife, but divorce by design is adversarial. Protect you and protect your child.

Hijacking is against guidelines so I'll keep this short: my ex once told me about her aunt and uncle. Years ago, they both decided to remain in the same home, but do their own things. I really think that my ex would have stayed many months or even longer if I hadn't pushed her out. Two of ex's female cousins have major emotional issues to this day and I can't help but think his they grew up affecting them. Similarly, so were my ex, her older brother , and her slightly younger sister, all witnessing a serial cheating dad.

[SaltyDawg]

Engie BPD,

3.  Most of the time my wife is a very good person; however, when something lets loose inside of her mind, she becomes a very bad person.  A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality dynamic.  I like the good version of my wife; however, I hate the bad version of my wife.  My relationship with my wife is too bad to stay in, but is too good to leave, so in this respect your observation is correct.

This here is key in my opinion about BPD or possibly a cluster B that is not truly devious.  I know my wife is a good person too and can be rational when she is in a normal state of mind.  
Agreed, my wife is that way too.

Salty, does your wife change at any moment she becomes emotional?  Does this switch happen when she gets even slightly emotional then does or say something to then further her to become even more emotional and thus becomes an awful person?
Yes, she changes at any moment whenever she becomes triggered.  Apparently she used to go from 0-100% full rage in less than a second - totally ruled by her emotions - the last time she did this was in September/October.  She has not done the 'borderline rage' since November when she has become partially self-aware of it - nothing short of a miracle on how she can control her rage that was previously uncontrollable by her.  I cannot explain how she has been able to change.  However, and this is a big however, while the 0-100 rages have stopped, the 0-100 splitting has NOT.  She will also split just as fast.

I actually recorded our interactions [predominately to record how unstable and irrational she was], and listened to them when I was calm and meditative several hours or a day later, her emotional state actually feeds on my emotional state - although I was unaware of it while it was happening in real time - I have since adjusted my behavior to avoid her becoming pre-triggered.  A normal person would not get triggered, but BPD is not normal.  My responses would do what I would call a 'pre-triggering' event in my wife, where she would become agitated or anxious.  For lack of a better term, I would call it emotional pre-arousal.  Depending on the topic matter, she would either revert back to baseline, or if I triggered her further, she would explode and/or become irrational at a moment's notice - a really fast response.  Going from baseline, to pre-triggered, to full-triggered would be anywhere a few minutes, to a few seconds, and occasionally less than a second, depending on how triggered she had become.

My counselor told me last week that she was surprised by this sudden change from my ex wife.  My counselor said, there are times in the session where she is levelheaded.  Our counselor came up with some strategies to bring us into a place where we were no longer arguing and fighting (which was driving me insane in our relationship and exhausting for me).  The stableness of our relationship was doing something internally to my wife.  She is addicted to friction and chaos but is unaware of it.

I'm not surprised at all - I have observed my wife's interpersonal interactions for decades and they have become very predictable.  Whenever there is a difficult person in her work dynamic, it spills over into the home dynamic too.  Eventually she will encounter a toxic personality - generally a NPD'd individual, usually a supervisor, at work, and that would really trigger her at home, since she cannot lash out at that person at work, she redirects her emotions to whom she feels the safest - that person is me.  This is a dynamic that plays itself out over and over again.  When there is no toxic personality at her work, she is much more level headed at home.  I suspect you have a different dynamic with your wife in this regard.  However, my wife might have an 'addiction to chaos' as when things initially became smooth after the boundaries were initially established, they were repeatedly sabotaged over and over again, until the past 2-1/2 weeks.  Also, at the beginning of our relationship, she deliberately avoided conflict with me for 'fear of abandonment' issues.  I suspect my wife doesn't like chaos; however, it has become so familiar, when it is missing, something is wrong, so she creates it again - this is the cycle I am currently trying to break in her.

The problem with my ex wife with recent events is that I learned that she can be easily manipulated.   Salty, you have a rough situation as you say your wife is smart.   I have read on forums that many bpd women are quite smart.  My ex wife is not smart at all.  She jumps to conclusions and gets upset when someone tries to show logic or evidence.  She is reads deeply into astrology and anything that is just vague - usually something that is easy to understand and not specific.   She's also a feel type person "i feel this, therefore, it is this".  

You mentioned that your pwBPD is 'easily manipulated'.  Well for my wife, that all depends on how you define 'easily'.  Yes, I can manipulate her using tools like the 'seed planting tool'.  However, this tool takes time to implement, but it is 'easy' to plant the seed as her need is more instant gratification and less strategic planning - except for money matters which is OCPD-like for her with occasional impulsive spending which is really unique to my wife.  She also recognizes when I use disarming statement like 'I hear you' as her T has trained her to do that with me, so I cannot use that term, but I have to use more clever words when implementing the SET communication tool.  My wife is not into astrology or anything equally as vague as fortune cookies and the like.  However, she is a person who responds immediately to whatever feeling she is feeling at the moment with very little logical thought processes behind - in essence she wears her emotions on her sleeve, and she knows it.  When my wife becomes educated on something that her T has trained her on, I can no longer use that tool, as she weaponizes it to her advantage and recognizes it when I use it.  Her therapy, definitely keeps me on my toes where I have to constantly adjust to new dynamics - I often recognize new tools that she has been trained with on me - and I adjust accordingly.

She feels like she and this guy has a strong connection but is completely unaware that they're just in the infatuation stage.  We all can get into an infatuation stage with almost anyone if we allow it to happen.  

My wife interpreted our infatuation stage as 'love'.  However, when she was no longer infatuated, she no longer felt 'love' for me.  She equates infatuation for love.  I know she cares for me, but she cannot equate that as 'love' although her actions speak otherwise.

She sees our temporary disconnect (because we are both exhausted from working and having a 1-2 year old baby) as if we were never in love.   She totally blocked off the memories of our infatuation stage - possibly to convince her that this divorce needs to happen.   I know that it will hit her hard later because this tends to happen to bpd women when they have time to reflect and they get into friction with new victim.
I agree with your assessment.  However, my wife's T's are working with my wife on this, and I do see some progress, much slower than they, she and I anticipated.

Although I will take some responsibility for our disconnect.  I overlooked it a little bit as I was spending too much time trying to make money and taking care of our baby that was going through temper tantrums.  I was exhausted every single day.  Our counselor made gave my ex wife a schedule for us to spend time together because my ex wife always feels like it was never enough.
This is nearly identical to what I am experiencing with my wife.  My wife, when she was splitting me black, in session, in front of our couple's T telling her that I do absolutely nothing for the relationship - Our couple's T gave me a homework assignment to keep score [counter intuitive by any standard of couple's therapy] on how much of her primary two love languages I am doing.  It turned to be 75 and 1/4 hours per week of effort I was making.  After deducting for sleeping/showering.  That left a little over 5 hours per day for me and 'self-care', and all other waking hours 10-1/2 to 16 hours per day were spent trying to satisfy her, which is 5x to 10x the overly generous amount allocated by the "His Needs, Her Needs" marriage counseling book that quantifies this effort to at least 15 hours per week with 7-8 hours done by the man and the other 7-8 hours done by the woman.  I was doing 75 per week, and she was less than one hour per week [now two hours due to homework assignments] - something is definitely wrong with that picture.

She needs to take accountability that she never really expressed this disconnect in counseling.  She kept saying we are doing great!   Which then makes me overlook even further thinking that she should know that we are both just tired and this is a temporary phase.   Once the baby is in school more, we would have more time to ourselves.   I was wrong!  I was vocal about this many times too but it didn't matter.
I hear you loud and clear here, same thing happened with me when our children were and are still in school - she gets too busy with her part-time job and volunteer work to pay me much attention.

Due to my ex wife's weakness, she allowed a man to sweet talk her and then infiltrate her emotions.  She was lacking attention and this guy gave that to her.   She has become attached and obsessed over this guy.  She won't listen to me or our counselor or anyone at this point if we were to tell her that this is not real love.  Because it's her feeling, it's absolute.   Everything wrong he does, she defends him.  He love bombed her so much in the beginning and promised her this "amazing" life with him, she discarded me immediately and slandered me awfully because she needs to have strong reasons to divorce me to her family and friends - since they do not know about the affair.  
I have not experienced this, as it has not happened in my relationship.  However, if it were to happen, I could and would ethically end the relationship, much like you are doing now.  In fact, I did this very thing with my previous uBPD/NPDexgf

She thought this guy was rich, but he's actually not that rich.  I suspect the family  thinks something is off though.  The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.
This is the way my wife thinks of me.  I had to work my $$ off for everything.  She wants to have the male role in the relationship and leave the domestic work to me - it doesn't work that way.  I am agreeable to split the domestic work 50/50, but that doesn't happen.

Salty, I feel for you.  I have to consider that I am in somewhat of a lucky position if things go the way I hope it goes with my custody situation.  My child is young enough to not remember we separate.  This was at the top of my mind when making any decision.   There was a 2 - 3 day period where this guy ghosted my exwife and she even mentioned reconciliation with me.  I'm said "absolutely not".   She is now forced to be committed to this guy or find someone else - which she is also now on dating sites to distract herself from when this guy ignores here for a couple of days.  My reason for this is not a selfish one.  I know her well enough now that she will leave me at any point in our marriage and I ABSOLUTELY cannot let her do this when my child is older.  If she does this to him at 5 years old, I will be so crushed for him.   I am already crushed for him, but this timing is the best at any point.

I agree with you, I personally feel that sooner you leave the better, any time after 5-7 years of age will make it more difficult for your son.  I know you are looking out for your son's best interest in addition to your own.  You are not being selfish, you are being selfless.

You are a strong person Salty because I know what you are doing for the best interest for your kids.  You are strategically making it work so that your kids won't be ruined.  This is also one of the reasons why I am trying to finish off my lease with her.  It's so that when we move, my 3 year old will see us both packing our stuff and moving to different places.   I don't want him to see one of us leave all of a sudden.  I made sure to spend time with him without her and be in my room most of the time.  She sometimes tries to drag me out to an amusement park with him.  I don't want to reopen a wound.  

I am strategically making it work to prevent my children from being 'ruined' any more than they already have, and to do some repair work too, that would not be possible if we separated/divorced.  Circling back to your lease, with your son at 3 y.o. while it will be impactful for your son for a week or two, at that age, all they care about is who is feeding them, and playing with them on play dates.  The longer you wait, the more impactful it will be for him, and you too. 

For me, if this separation is inevitable, this is the time to rip off that badaid as it'll be in the best interest for my baby and also myself.  And she wants it because she is in lala land with this guy.   I told her that if she were to marry him, obviously we have to be fast with our divorce and custody.  She agreessssssssssssssssssssss
Faster the better, do this sooner rather than later, before she figures out she is not into the guy [or the guy is no longer into her], and changes her mind.  If you can afford it, leave before the lease is done, and pay off the few months of your share, or convince her for the new guy to move in, and have him pay it.

Good luck, and take care.

[engiebpd]

[/quote
Faster the better, do this sooner rather than later, before she figures out she is not into the guy [or the guy is no longer into her], and changes her mind.  If you can afford it, leave before the lease is done, and pay off the few months of your share, or convince her for the new guy to move in, and have him pay it.

Good luck, and take care.

[/quote]

I thought of this and will still consider this.   But only until I get some custody orders signed off first.   I am unsure if this will be healthy for our baby.  It may still look like I took off as he is so used to this apartment at the moment.  I asked my family lawyer that after paperwork is done, can I just have this new bf take over my lease.  He said it may still be in my name and that can be disastrous.   I haven't spoken to the leasing office about this yet though. 

But my family lawyer said this may not be in the best interest of my son.   I'm guessing it'll be because my son will all of ansudden see a new man in the apartment that he is used to.    Surely, my son may see me on X days due to custody order.  But how will that affect him in this circumstance.   I was told that it may be best for our son to see that we (ex wife and i) completely move out and be in separate locations as he sees a drastic change and gets used to it

In this case, he will just see a new man in his own apartment.. I'm unsure if it'll be in the best interest in our boy.   My family lawyer knows I am walking on eggshells well and avoiding all fights so he may think this is the best road to take.   

But yes, many people have suggested that I leave after custody is sign but I am unsure of it at the moment because I am thinking, it would be weird for my son to just see another guy in my room. 

[ForeverDad]

I am unsure if this will be healthy for our baby.  It may still look like I took off as he is so used to this apartment at the moment.

There are millions of families that have split apart and/or experienced divorce and those children can/do adapt to changing circumstances.  They're generally not fragile Ming vases.  Any change can impact them but your child has surely been exposed to some discord already, so the largest factor helping them is you maintaining as much contact as possible, so very helpful.

Similarly for moves.  Millions of families move each year.  The kids adapt.  Even transferring back and forth between two separate homes quickly becomes normal, kids are quite adaptable.

You're worrying about the short term impacts, it is the long term status over the years that has more impact.

[kells76]

Hi engiebpd;

Here's another way to look at this situation:

I thought of this and will still consider this.   But only until I get some custody orders signed off first.   I am unsure if this will be healthy for our baby.  It may still look like I took off as he is so used to this apartment at the moment.  I asked my family lawyer that after paperwork is done, can I just have this new bf take over my lease.  He said it may still be in my name and that can be disastrous.   I haven't spoken to the leasing office about this yet though.

But my family lawyer said this may not be in the best interest of my son.   I'm guessing it'll be because my son will all of ansudden see a new man in the apartment that he is used to.    Surely, my son may see me on X days due to custody order.  But how will that affect him in this circumstance.   I was told that it may be best for our son to see that we (ex wife and i) completely move out and be in separate locations as he sees a drastic change and gets used to it

In this case, he will just see a new man in his own apartment.. I'm unsure if it'll be in the best interest in our boy.   My family lawyer knows I am walking on eggshells well and avoiding all fights so he may think this is the best road to take. 

I think I'm reading some assumptions, that:

-->you have to be the one to leave

-->she gets to stay and have the apartment

-->that apartment has to be your son's "real home"

Those are just that -- assumptions, not necessarily "how things must be". Those assumptions may color what you believe is possible or even worth trying. And, assumptions, for a dad in a divorce working out custody, aren't always helpful.

For example, my H's parents divorced when he was very young. Back in those days, the assumption was -- kids live with mom in their "real home" and "visit" dad occasionally at "dad's house" which is not their "real house". And that is what H experienced, so he assumed, many years later, when he and the kids' mom divorced, that:

-he had to move out
-it was mean to make the kids move out of "their real house"
-he had to be nice to Mom and "let her have the house"
-he could only have "visits" with the kids... his own children
-because he worked full time, he couldn't have "full" or "joint" custody... he had to give Mom full custody

These assumptions have been devastating to his relationship with the kids, and aren't true.

engiebpd, what if we challenged some of those assumptions you've shared?

What if she moved out?

Or, what if you had to move out, yet took your son with you?

What if instead of referring to the apartment as "your son's apartment" and imagining that the only path forward was "my son will have to get used to seeing another man in his apartment", we did a powerful reframe:

"After my son and I move out to our own place, my son will get used to spending time both at my house and at Mom's house, whether that's the old apartment or not."

or

"After my son's mom moves out, I will help my son get used to spending time at two houses, and both will be his homes"

...

While I understand that there are logistical hurdles in every divorce (leases and finances are no small issues), I want to encourage you so much at this stage to consider reframing your thinking to be that you are just as important in your son's life as his mom, and you don't have to "be the good guy" by giving up ground to her based on the assumption that "I guess my son has to stay in the apartment, and if his mom and I can't be together, I guess I have to leave". I hope you can understand that that isn't true any more.

We can be here to walk alongside you and help you stay involved, empowered, not giving up ground, and proactive for your son's best interest.

Like ForeverDad says, it's not where your son lives that has to always stay the same -- people move all the time. It's that you never give an inch in standing up for your son's right to have you in his life. I'd suggest that you strongly consider finding an alternative to moving out, letting your son's mom have the apt, and treating it like your son's only true home.

Don't hesitate to run this past your lawyer, and between the group here, and your L, I bet we can come up with some assertive, practical, feasible ways for you to stay a primary parent.

Lots of food for thought,. Really glad to hear that you are prioritizing getting custody orders signed -- smart move 

Keep us posted;

kells76

[Turkish]

My ex moved out of my home (it was only in my name). She moved apartments 4 times in the following 5 years due to... Lack of foresight. It did affect them, but as the others said, a move or 2 is not abnormal. The kids desired to stay with me at first more not due to the home, but that I had been primary caretaker for them for the better part of a year. If you're focused on your kid, he'll be OK. It's hard not to overthink these things.

[engiebpd]

I am getting Intel on how a bpd mind thinks.    Recently, my ex wife was completely being honest about her situation with this new guy.  She openly told me that she wants to "trick" him into marrying her.  She said that he is a insecure so she is going to blow up his ego and tell him how amazing a person he is.

Can you believe this?  This is textbook bpd behavior during idealization phase.   But I've always thought it was their natural bpd behavior.   She's sitting there devising a plan on how to ensure she secures this guy.  

Which means she's probably trying her best with wild sex in order to try to get him pregnant with her.

Btw some interesting news,  my counselor called my psychiatrist to talk about the ex wife.   I went in to see her yesterday and she believes my ex wife is currently on manic behavior and is either bipolar or bpd.    She needs to figure out which it is.

She says she is unsure how my ex wife will respond to these diagnostics and asked me to see if I convince the ex wife to let me go with her to see the psychiatrist.  I asked the psych why she needs me there and she says it's to give higher probability that the ex wife will be truthful.   Apparently the ex wife has been lying to her a lot in their sessions together.  The psych tells me she doesnt know what is true but has a better idea of the situation after talking with the marriage counselor.

Btw, I think I'm split now because I told her that she's leaving me for this guy not because of the things she's been telling her family.  

[SaltyDawg]

Right now you are your ex-wife's "Favorite Person" - she trusts you implicitly with her emotions.  If you go to her psychiatrist [or is it your psychiatrist] with your ex wife - do not let the psychiatrist make a diagnosis [formal, or informal (e.g. you have BPD-like symptoms) with you present, as that may be perceived as a betrayal by your ex wife and you will not longer be gathering valuable intel for you upcoming custody/divorce.  Right now you need to look out for what is best for you.

Perhaps, offer up a compromise, that you will help out your ex wife in this manner after all of the papers you want signed are indeed signed.

A different compromise, if the aforementioned one is not accepted, offer that you will talk to the psychiatrist in a one on one session without the ex wife, and ask you probative questions about her to discern what is going on with your ex wife, request that this conversation not be communicated with the ex wife.

What you shared is incredibly fascinating, I don't even see that level of sharing in the group by borderlines for borderlines - this takes it to the next level - literally.  The hypersexual behavior I thought was to compensate for the 'fear of abandonment' on a primal and instinctual level; however, what you are describing is premeditated entrapment, and is different that the more primal fear of abandonment [I am theorising (educated guessing) as I have not read about abandonment rising to the level of deliberate entrapment] - there may be something else going on there as this is a deliberate behavior versus a subconsciously reactive one in response to the fear of abandonment.  "Wow" is the word that comes to my mind.

[Couscous]

What you shared is incredibly fascinating, I don't even see that level of sharing in the group by borderlines for borderlines - this takes it to the next level - literally.  The hypersexual behavior I thought was to compensate for the 'fear of abandonment' on a primal and instinctual level; however, what you are describing is premeditated entrapment, and is different that the more primal fear of abandonment [I am theorising (educated guessing) as I have not read about abandonment rising to the level of deliberate entrapment] - there may be something else going on there as this is a deliberate behavior versus a subconsciously reactive one in response to the fear of abandonment.  "Wow" is the word that comes to my mind.

I'm thinking that this level of manipulativeness is not connected to normal BPD but is a symptom of having a character disorder, as described here: https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/the-character-disturbance-spectrum/

I was my N/BPD SIL's favorite person for a while during her dramatic breakup with my brother, and she revealed to me the extent to which she was consciously and deliberately attempting to manipulate him. It was quite shocking and I immediately ceased all contact with her when I realized what was going on. 

 

[engiebpd]

She definitely has fear of abandonment with this guy and I see some of that with me still but the worry is not there yet since I am still living with her and she knows I'm still here when she's home.  I mean, we do have a 3 year old together still.  So it hasnt hit her yet.   Unsure what it will be like for her when I actually move out of here.

I see her behavior when affair bf goes no contact for a couple days.   It's very predictable.  She will start asking me to go do things with her like the spa or amusement park with the baby.  I try to avoid all.  She also is more depressed and drinks more when he does avoid her.  She randomly defends him "wow this guy is just so busy, I know he loves me, but he's so busy"

She openly admitted to him she does not like him going in and out of her with communication.  Shes concernee because he is still living with his baby momma (or maybe theyre together and hes also cheating - we dont know at this point).  In fact, she started flirting and kissing a coworker of hers.  

She told me this "since he's been avoiding my texts, I texted him that I am going to hang out with my coworker, and he immediately texts me back"  the guy she's seeing (guy she had affair with on me) is now pissed that she kissed her coworker and started going off on her about how he's been cheated on before and doesn't want that trauma to happen again -_- (my face when hearing this)   She told him it was a meaningless kiss and there is no connection.  

I guess that's okay with him since they're still talking.  My ex wife is very desirable at her work place so it appears that this guy is actually worried he may lose her to somebody else.

Also, now she's again talking about wanting to pay the lease here and moving out because her new man is uncomfortable with her living with me.  

Also I want to reiterate that we are only 5-6 weeks in since our agreed breakup and all this drama is happening.   

[SaltyDawg]

She definitely has fear of abandonment with this guy and I see some of that with me still but the worry is not there yet since I am still living with her and she knows I'm still here when she's home.  I mean, we do have a 3 year old together still.  So it hasnt hit her yet.   Unsure what it will be like for her when I actually move out of here.

My guess is that she will 'loose her stuff' emotionally when she does realize wtf happened.


I see her behavior when affair bf goes no contact for a couple days.   It's very predictable. [...]  She openly admitted to him she does not like him going in and out of her with communication.  

Behavior patterns are usually repeated...


Shes concernee because he is still living with his baby momma (or maybe theyre together and hes also cheating - we dont know at this point).  In fact, she started flirting and kissing a coworker of hers.  

Behavior patterns are usually repeated...  [sounds a bit HPD too]


Also, now she's again talking about wanting to pay the lease here and moving out because her new man is uncomfortable with her living with me.  

Agree to it, once your papers are signed by her, and you notify the landlord once she has paid you.


Also I want to reiterate that we are only 5-6 weeks in since our agreed breakup and all this drama is happening.   

I agree, this is a very short time for all this happening.

Do self-care, do document, and do take care of you & your 3 yo child.

[engiebpd]

I can see why a lot of my friends and family and you guys on BPD forum here advise me to try to find a way to get away from her:

Earlier today she tells me she broke it off with the guy last night.   Apparently they got into a conflict and she got mad at him and she told him great lets break up and I can go with someone else to valentines day.  I think he got pissed or something.   

Throughout the day, she's all "he's in love with me, he'll come back and it'll be all passionate again".    I'm like "ok.." just trying to have a straight normal face on everything she says. 

Later on in the evening, I can tell she's moping about something.   She comes out of her room and says "i get it now, it's your fault".   I said "what's my fault".  She says "it's because of our lack of love in our marriage that i became overly obsessed over this guy and acted crazy on him".  It's as if she forgot he loved bomb her and promised her this amazing life with him.  I told her that's just your opinion and i disagree, but I don't need to talk about this anymore.  She says you can tell this to our counselor but she's probably just going to be on your side about it again.  I'm like, a lot of people will side with me on this one but again, i don't want to talk about it anymore.   She says "this is my opinion and you need to support it".  I'm like "i dont need to support anything, we are divorcing already".

It sounds like if they break up now, she's going to be blaming it on our "loveless marriage".   I dont know if they'll break up because they've been on and off for weeks now.  I hope they dont break up, i need these papers signed!

[Turkish]

It sounds like you've realized your own value. Good.

My ex shared with me early on [boy toy/beau] observed her anger and asked me about it." That was months before I got her to move out.

In the "bro world" I'd have had contacted him and told him to run. He wouldn't have believed me anyway, much as I ignored my own indistinct to run before I had a kid, much less two.  Let it play out. Use it to your advantage.

[ForeverDad]

A phrase I haven't noticed in this thread is that a pwBPD typically craves engagement, even if it is "negative engagement".

At some point (perhaps once you have custody details resolved?) you need to step back from even the reduced amount of current contact.

[engiebpd]

Everything has been okay in the apartment but now I am seeing some physical things.  More cussing even when I am trying to remain calm.  She got so upset this morning over some dirty laundry.  She went on a yelling and cussing rant and while cooking she slammed the pot into the stove and broke it.

I have a voice recorder recording, but I am a little worried this can escalate the more time here.  Any advice?   Thanks

[engiebpd]

ugh for the first time, my recorder didn't work. So weird.