I seriously need some help.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

engiebpd - your story mirrors mine very closely.  i'm still hanging in with my marriage, but it's not good.  seriously, so much of what you have said is precisely what i'm going through.  this comment:

The only problem is that I have to take a lot verbally and mentally without defending myself nor getting angry.

really hit home.  lately i've been greyrocking a lot, and getting pretty good at it.  but it's hard to endure those attacks sometimes when all you want to do is lash out.  i guess i had been using my fights with my wife as my own emotional dumping ground, so now that i'm not fighting back and defending myself or allowing myself to get visibly and audibly angry, all that anger i'm having to shove down needs a place to go.  i havent figured out yet how to deal with that. 

[Smedley Butler]

engiebpd - your story mirrors mine very closely.  i'm still hanging in with my marriage, but it's not good.  seriously, so much of what you have said is precisely what i'm going through.  this comment:

The only problem is that I have to take a lot verbally and mentally without defending myself nor getting angry.

really hit home.  lately i've been greyrocking a lot, and getting pretty good at it.  but it's hard to endure those attacks sometimes when all you want to do is lash out.  i guess i had been using my fights with my wife as my own emotional dumping ground, so now that i'm not fighting back and defending myself or allowing myself to get visibly and audibly angry, all that anger i'm having to shove down needs a place to go.  i havent figured out yet how to deal with that. 

[ForeverDad]

She's blaming me for "manipulating" our counselor and also our psychiatrist for putting her on bipolar meds.   She thinks she doesn't have it.

Bipolar and Borderline are fundamentally different though with similar behaviors.  Bipolar is evidently a chemical imbalance and meds do help.  On the other hand, while meds can moderate BPD behaviors, the real solution is experienced therapy and diligently applying it long term in one's perceptions and life.

[livednlearned]

now that i'm not fighting back and defending myself or allowing myself to get visibly and audibly angry, all that anger i'm having to shove down needs a place to go.  i havent figured out yet how to deal with that. 

Not sure if High-Conflict Couple by Fruzetti might help but it seems like it could help you understand the nuances of your own emotions so that you're less likely to build resentment or minimize your own needs here.

HCC was written for two people with PDs (trying to imagine that ...) but honestly, it's helpful for anyone. I know toward the end of my marriage my emotions were so raw I felt all but unrecognizable. I didn't have this book but I wish I did, if only to understand the physiology of high conflict emotions and what was reasonable to expect from my myself in response to someone who seemed to fight for sport.

[engiebpd]

I am absolutely drained.  Things have somewhat gone my way that I hope it would go when this all started.  It feels like she isn't going to go at it with me hard with custody, but we will yet see until settlement is written down.

She did request for a reconciliation recently which is absolutely insane to me.   

I am just so exhausted from handling more of the babycare - probably why she wants to rconciled because od the amount of work i put into the baby.  Essentially reconciliation feels like enslavement to me at this point

It is only recent that she has been there for the baby on her days.   It's very weird.  I can see she can be a good mom for him when she is there but she is so inconsistent.   Her affair partner has been less there for her so that means she's more at home for the baby.

I don't know why I am so drained.   Is it the depression and stress that I've been fighting these last few months?   Physically and mentally, I feel like I am at my worst.  I am tired every day and can't seem to get to my important tasks.   

I have this thing about wanting to do these things when I am in my own space.  The other day I woke up with a little clear mind, I woke up listening to a podcast, doing chores, went to the gym etc... and then I get zapped into an argument with her which I tried to dodge but I got upset by how these things constantly gets me off track.  I swear, she loves drama and we are just at the age where we have 0 time for this crap.

I told her I am at my whits end and that I need her to just stay away from me.  I am a competitor and I run a sole proprietor with some contract jobs.   I recently picked up at government part time job to get my foot in the door with public service just in case I need something more stable being a future single dad.

I have various ways to make $ but it is so difficult to get to those tasks.   My resume is decent but haven't worked for a solid organization for a while.

Every week this year has been some kind of challenge that I am being put through.  It feels very weird to not have a prolonged period of time without any drama or challenge. 

We have to potty train our 3 year old so he can move up in class and even this feels dreadful with my current low energy level.

I met some friends that told me they got so much stronger and better after the divorce.   It's been so long in this physical confined space with her that I start to believe its not possible to get better. 

I have to trust the youtubers and everyone that says it gets better.

It is just so draining as I figured out that she baits me into arguments with her so she can be fed a dopamine hit.   Getting upset takes up so much of my mental energy.  I don't understand how she wants to be in that state for so long.  She cab literally argue and fight all day if I allowed it.   

She wants to just "feel" something.   It is so damn toxic and my mental brain is poisoned right now

[ForeverDad]

It is only recent that she has been there for the baby on her days.   It's very weird.  I can see she can be a good mom for him when she is there but she is so inconsistent.   Her affair partner has been less there for her so that means she's more at home for the baby.

She has moved on to a replacement.  Do you conclude she has more interest in adult relationships than in parenting?  Some pwBPD do have that inclination.

Some here too have reported that even when their ex sought as much time as possible, it was more to show their public image and later they gave up much of their parenting.  She does appear to have a comfort zone where you will eventually end up with more parental responsibilities.  Step up whenever the opportunities arise.

[Smedley Butler]

I don't know why I am so drained.   Is it the depression and stress that I've been fighting these last few months?   Physically and mentally, I feel like I am at my worst.  I am tired every day and can't seem to get to my important tasks.

i'm in a similar headspace.  very hard to find motivation to do the most basic tasks.  feeling very physically tired most of the day, which is unusual for me, because i'm typically very active and fit.  i've stuck with my workout schedule which helps, but it's only discipline that's getting me through the workouts, certainly not energy or motivation.  i think the constant low level anxiety interspersed with unexpected spikes of high stress engagements are just taxing on us physically.  that's my theory anyways. 

[engiebpd]

i'm in a similar headspace.  very hard to find motivation to do the most basic tasks.  feeling very physically tired most of the day, which is unusual for me, because i'm typically very active and fit.  i've stuck with my workout schedule which helps, but it's only discipline that's getting me through the workouts, certainly not energy or motivation.  i think the constant low level anxiety interspersed with unexpected spikes of high stress engagements are just taxing on us physically.  that's my theory anyways. 

Yes, all the things I usually do with ease gets put off a bit more.

I try to pyscholgically do everything on a micro level.   For example, If the dishes are overwhelming, I just tell myself to out away 5 dishes.  Eventually my mind will see that there are less dishes and will want to complete.   

I do video editing and it is very difficult to get through completion.   I would just have to make sure I have it all set up, then take a break and then naturally I would get to it.   

This is teaching me the importance of what I need to do to succeed as a single dad.  I am going to write everything down and do everything little by little and just follow the todo list.   I've studied this strategy before but never had the need to implement it until now.   If I don't do this, nothing gets done


"
She has moved on to a replacement.  Do you conclude she has more interest in adult relationships than in parenting?  Some pwBPD do have that inclination.

Some here too have reported that even when their ex sought as much time as possible, it was more to show their public image and later they gave up much of their parenting.  She does appear to have a comfort zone where you will eventually end up with more parental responsibilities.  Step up whenever the opportunity"

I suspect that when she knows for sure I am not going after child support, she will eventually just give him off to me.  It's similar ro what's happening in the household right now.  I am doing a ton more chores, taking the baby to his appts, taking him out to play consistently (the kid knows how to ride a bike with training wheels),  I am always talking to his therapists - she is okay with all these things because nobody knows.   I bet if I care for him 100%, but tell our circle it's shared caring she will be happy.

I do know that if affair guy ditches her, she's there for the baby.  But I can't tell if it's because of her needs in that doesn't want to be lonely.

I believe that if she gets into another romance with another guy, the cupcake stages will make her rather be with her new guy than with the baby.   Right now, it feels like she's more present because she's realizing affair partner is not really there for her (this is also why she mentioned reconciliation last week).   Affair partner keeps blowing her off.   She would even ask me to watch the baby on her days and say "I may need you to watch him, but I don't know if I am going out for sure".

She can't even get a committed date time with affair partner.

The fact that she really wants me to go out with her and the baby is really because it's too exhausting for her to be alone with the baby. 

I am certain she would have more interest in adult relationship than the baby but I know she loves the baby a lot so it's very hard to tell what will happen.

When we separate, I do not mind on paper sharing custody even if she keeps giving him off to me.   I won't go after her for child custody or anything but I will tell her she can take him out or be with him whenever she wants except for the days I'm scheduled with him.

Only time will tell at this point but I really hope it turns out this way because I don't want her to damage him with her issues.   

[engiebpd]

Settlement paperwork is on its way.   I have a question if you can please help me.  I am really confused lately.

About a month ago she wanted to go off her bipolar meds and convinced the psychiatrist that she doesn't have bipolar but has adhd.   So now she's on light dosage of Adderall because she claims and thinks she has adhd..   At that point, she was really upset at me and our former marriage counselor for "convincing" our psychiatrist that she was bipolar.  It wasn't me that said it, it was our marriage counselor.  

She said she saw extremely weird behaviors that led her to that conclusion, which was the mania that she witnessed during my ex's affair//infatuation with her new guy.

She was so emotionally and verbally abusive to me at such an extreme level.  Moments of saying I am not a man, I am probably gay, etc.   "Why don't you be the man in this house". Literally screaming this stuff at me.   This is contrary to all the good things she said about me last year to her family and friends, our marriage counselor, and psychiatrist.  All of us thought our relationship was great just last year.


Anyway, another significant thing just happened a couple weeks ago.   She got fired from her job.   It was a very good job for her that she worked for like 10 Years.   She made a lot of $ from tips at this place.  She is good looking and people tipped her well.  

Now we are a month away from moving.   Settlement paperwork is days away as I just need received and reviewed it with some adjustments.   Soon she will see it.   She's currently overwhelmed looking for a new job and wants to follow me to the same apartment complex but separate 1 bedroom units.  I am unsure how she will handle the paperwork 50/50 custody just as we agreed.  Unsure if she will sign since she is overwhelmed.

While I am a little worried about her being living close, I don't mind it as it'll make my life a bit easier with the 3 year old.  She also knows she needs to be close to the baby because he is speech delayed and the preschool we have him in is important because he's getting aba therapy and speech Therapists coming to the school to help him.   He also was kicked out from a church preschool last year because he was too disruptive.    It's a bit risky for her to move him to any area and put him in another school as the same can happen again and he'll be on the wait list again which can take months.  So this scenerio is beneficial to me.

Here's where I am really confused.  I can see that she is back to her "normal self" of trying to avoid making me mad.  It's like she turn off all the buttons that she implemented to get a reaction out of me.   She's still so lazy with the chores though but I just man handle everything for the baby.  I try not to get irritated for doing more of everything because I stay positive knowing we only have some time left stuck in these walls together.  When she will live on her own, she has to handle her own crap with the baby and I only need to worry about myself when the baby is with me.  No longer will I see piles of dishes that belongs to her.  She is an absolute mess this entire year.

We are also potty training him right now working heavily with the school and aba therapist.   Trust me, I am so friggen exhausted from everything that's coming at my life right now.  It is so much and I believe in God so it has to be some form of trial and tribulation for me.   It feels like being in a kind of prison if I were to compare my life now to last years and previous years.

How can she all of a sudden be more "nice".   There's too many factors that confuses me as to how she is able to turn off all her extreme behaviors that occurred earlier this year.

Is she not bipolar and the adhd meds are helping her?  Is she doing this in hopes I take her back ?  She did ask for a reconciliation a couple weeks ago too- which is absolutely insanity to me.  She said "maybe I needed this to learn more about myself and but I think things can be better" - she's referring to the affair, seriel dating, and freedom of going out.   Essentially, the keys to being single the last 6 months or so and doing whatever the heck she wanted that I gave her as an agreement to our divorce.  Whenever she asked to go out I said yes 100% of the time and handled the baby while she was out.

She lost her job and it made her high head come down a bit.

How are they able to just improve from intentionally be toxic to not being toxic?   I saw some of this during our relationship but always wrote off her nonsensical words and behaviors as her being emotional.   There were moments where she was somewhat rational and it led me to believe that she understood some things.    This was what allowed me to continue on with the relationship.  But then she would forget about those rational moments and then become nonsensical again.

The rational moments were when she would say how I am a great father and husband - and laying out all the things that I have done for her life.   And then some time later saying I am so awful.  

I would be soo confused because I would think in my head "you just told me that I was a good husband etc etc"

Right now, it appears she's more of that rational side but I can't tell if it's intentional.   Lately it has been making me feel so sorry for her.  Her on and off affair partner is messing with her badly.   One night he texts her offering her to move in with him.    That high came out of her again as she spent the day planning how great that would work out and that she won't have to worry about moving out on her own and he would "take care of everythin".  When she said yes, he said never mind apparently.

Then some days later, she tells me he said he can't commit to her
.   Talk about some messed up stuff this guy is doing to her life.   I cannot elaborate and tell her what this looks like to me all this time because she wouldn't listen and would accused me of being "negative".

Lately I am feeling so sad for her.   But then my memories of her being so atrocious to me earlier this year comes back and then I would be reminded why I need to leave this relationship even with a 3 year old boy in the middle.

Please help with my confusion here, I am considering booking another session with a therapist but we are a bit low on cash as I am being forced to pay for some more things because she's broke, no job, and ran her cc bills up this entire year during her mania.

Some good news is that I have been approved for another apartment and she is currently working with her family to help cosign her to live in the same complex.

Again sorry for the wall of text her but I tried to keep it short but also feel the need to provide as much information as possible because I am soo confused by her improved behavior lately.  Don't get me wrong though, she is still short wick and gets irritated easily especially when the baby is tantruming..    Still blames me for things but has improved a lot from the previous months.  

Her slight improvements has made me feel so sorry for her even though she nearly destroyed my soul this whole year.

What do you guys think about this change in behavior?  Is it intentional?   Is it due to desperation?  Or is it possible she improved?   I've read and saw too many testimonies of people saying they narcissistic and bpds improve to lure the victim back into the relationship but the next cycle will be much worst once they hook you back in.  

[ForeverDad]

She was so emotionally and verbally abusive to me at such an extreme level.  Moments of saying I am not a man, I am probably gay, etc.   "Why don't you be the man in this house". Literally screaming this stuff at me.   This is contrary to all the good things she said about me last year to her family and friends, our marriage counselor, and psychiatrist.  All of us thought our relationship was great just last year.

This disparagement is exactly what happened to me.  None of the professionals - and especially not family court - were interested in seeking a diagnosis.  The last time we were in court the magistrate wrote in the decision she needed counseling but declined to order it.  To this day nearly two decades later I still haven't heard a diagnosis.

Court does not try to fix them, it deals with people as they are.  That approach can work for us too.  Document the poor behaviors and, if necessary, return to court in the future if these new boundaries and order don't work.  That's what I did.

While I am a little worried about her being living close, I don't mind it as it'll make my life a bit easier with the 3 year old.  She also knows she needs to be close to the baby because he is speech delayed...

My marriage was great at first and then later it was "manageable" though becoming slowly worse.  What drastically triggered our relationship's implosion was having a child.  It happened so drastically we never got to have a second child.  I wonder whether that's the case with others here like you?

Here's where I am really confused.  I can see that she is back to her "normal self" of trying to avoid making me mad.  It's like she turn off all the buttons that she implemented to get a reaction out of me.

How can she all of a sudden be more "nice".   There's too many factors that confuses me as to how she is able to turn off all her extreme behaviors that occurred earlier this year.

Is she not bipolar and the adhd meds are helping her?  Is she doing this in hopes I take her back ?  She did ask for a reconciliation a couple weeks ago too- which is absolutely insanity to me.

How are they able to just improve from intentionally be toxic to not being toxic?   I saw some of this during our relationship but always wrote off her nonsensical words and behaviors as her being emotional.   There were moments where she was somewhat rational and it led me to believe that she understood some things.    This was what allowed me to continue on with the relationship.  But then she would forget about those rational moments and then become nonsensical again.

Her slight improvements has made me feel so sorry for her even though she nearly destroyed my soul this whole year.

What do you guys think about this change in behavior?  Is it intentional?   Is it due to desperation?  Or is it possible she improved?   I've read and saw too many testimonies of people saying they narcissistic and BPDs improve to lure the victim back into the relationship but the next cycle will be much worst once they hook you back in.

Extreme cycles of bad and good behavior are typical.  Perhaps it would be better to say "bad and less bad" behavior?

Yet at some point we have to ask ourselves, "Why should I put myself and the kids through this again and again?"  You can end the adult relationship and focus on doing the best you can with shared parenting.  You soon won't be a spouse anymore but you will always be a parent.  It has often been commented that as long as we are there for the kids and setting an example of good parenting in our own home, then the kids do better than in the midst of bickering and fighting parents.

Be aware that Bipolar is a chemical imbalance and meds can make a substantial improvement.  But Borderline is a cognition/behavioral disorder in which meds may moderate it somewhat, the real solution is long term therapy which is diligently applied to one's thinking, perceptions and behaviors.  Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT or CBT) is considered the most helpful - if a person applies it and sticks with it.

[livednlearned]

I hope it's ok to ask ... this is probably getting outside the lane you're in, but it might be connected to some of the confusion you're experiencing with your wife's mental health issues.

When you mention an aba therapist and speech delay, it makes me wonder if professionals suspect your son has autism?

I ask because in preschool my son presented with behaviors that in retrospect I recognize were consistent with autism but no one said anything directly. It wasn't until my son was in high school that we got a dx and one piece of the puzzle was, oddly enough, a 12-page court-ordered psyche eval done on n/BPDx.

n/BPDx was dx'd bipolar in his 20s (rejected dx), then ADHD in his 40s (accepted dx). But that didn't explain the utter insanity and extreme abuse that rained down on me and our son for the better part of a decade.

[engiebpd]

Foreverdad,  you are right and have always been spot on.   It is extreme bad behaviors to less bad behaviors.  Definitely good is giving too much credit.  I am in just confusion lately as I feel like I've lost sense of what's right and wrong because I have been engulfed by spousal extreme bad behaviors.   The only thing that didn't happen is anything physical.   This incident has definitely changed me as I don't feel as wholesome as I was before.  The fact that she has asked for an open marriage to remain being with me made me tonstart thinking that all married couples have open sex with other people but they stay together.   

I know for sure that something like that will just destroy my soul further.  I will feel like just a slave.  Everything I have done by "doing more" in this marriage was out of love.

I told some friends that something about my inner viewpoints on life has changed but can't really pinpoint what it is.  I married her believing that she was a Christian and grew up church going.

All the lies and her using tarot cards and psychics earlier this year made me start to think a demon has entered my household and that somehow she got possessed since she has behaved so differently than what she was before.   The things she said to me were so atrocious that when I have dreams of her at night, I dream about her being her old self - way more innocent.  The last 6 or so months has been unbelievable and it sickened my family and friends.  I am embarrassed to tell anyone much about the things that happened. 

I wondered if she was always like this or she changed somehow due to the stressors of life and having a baby.

I hope it's ok to ask ... this is probably getting outside the lane you're in, but it might be connected to some of the confusion you're experiencing with your wife's mental health issues.

When you mention an aba therapist and speech delay, it makes me wonder if professionals suspect your son has autism?

I ask because in preschool my son presented with behaviors that in retrospect I recognize were consistent with autism but no one said anything directly. It wasn't until my son was in high school that we got a dx and one piece of the puzzle was, oddly enough, a 12-page court-ordered psyche eval done on n/BPDx.

n/BPDx was dx'd bipolar in his 20s (rejected dx), then ADHD in his 40s (accepted dx). But that didn't explain the utter insanity and extreme abuse that rained down on me and our son for the better part of a decade.

This has been the weird part.   I think he is considered diagnosed autistic but when he went in to the clinic to test, he passed 3/4 tests.   The one he failed was just speech.   He's Cognitive, is able to solve problems etc.  They tried to place some wires on his head but he wouldn't let them so they didn't do it.

I've spoken to a lot of friends as well as my family and learned that that so many kids are speech delayed and they told me not to think he's autistic yet.   They've seen my child on many occasions and don't think he's autistic.  He doesn't tantrum often enough as I have seen autistic kids tantrum and can become physical.

The thing about my ex is that she exaggerates stories about him when she talks to drs. She's very extreme with her words.  I see this because of the things she says about me in our marriage counseling.   She fooled my counselor for almost a year until my counselor started to realized what was going on during our 2nd year.

IMO, he's likely just speech delayed and has occasional tantrums just like any other kid because of his inability to communicate.  The kid is smart though but is just slow on speech, probably both of our faults as werent t that consistent when talking to him.  She is better at it than me because she's a woman - all of our speech therapist are women.  I have not met a single man that does it.  It's true, that speech Therapists are usually women.

 I am kinda introverted so my energy levels of talking is not that great.  I usually have to build energy up for meetings or to talk to people.  I'm kind of a computer nerd and I am good with competition and strategy.  But I know how to get good at things like martial arts and building muscles so those activities make me less nerdy.

I've taken drama in high school so I know I can go far with speech.

It is difficult for me to constantly talk to him with an animated tone so he can hear our words.  We read to him and do talk to him but it's not every single hour of the day.  ABA therapy is essentially giving him extra exposure to someone talking at a prefessionally to kids.   

I was bad too as I made some mistakes of just giving him things I knew he wanted instead of making him ask for it.   I didn't know these things as he was my first child but I learned how to do it from observing aba therapists and speech Therapists.

At this point, they don't know 100% if he's autistic.  If he is, he isn't that high on the spectrum.  The kid can ride a bike with training wheels, do well in playgrounds, knows his shapes, and a lot of words.  He just can't string phrases together.  He understands a lot of things we tell him but he just doesn't answer sometimes but I can see he understands.

The aba therapists told me that if he's just speech delayed, then no matter what aba therapy will be good for him.  I think their approach is that if he is autistic, itll lessen his autisim sooner as he gets older or if hes just speech delay, it'll just expedite his learning in the  areas he's slow at.   

But right now, it looks like he's just speech delayed to me and maybe struggles with social interactions as a result of it. 

 But for him to get ABA therapy with our insurance, my ex was very convincing to the drs about his behavior.  I think they're doing things with "just in case" in the back of their minds.  He passed 3/4 tests, but until they put some stuff on his head, we truly won't know for sure.

My nephews and nieces were speech delayed and they grew up fine.  Again this is one of the areas that I am also very confused as well.

Overall I am happy with the aba therapy and extra speech Therapists as it just gives him more exposure other than myself or my ex.

[livednlearned]

It's good that they're providing services. Like you say, it can be helpful whether he's on the spectrum or not.

You know the saying that if you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum?

Anyway, the reason I was curious about autism is more about the hereditary nature of it.

My son is now 22. He doesn't present as "classic autism," or what used to be called Asperger's and is now considered Level 1 ASD.

In retrospect he used social strategies in very clever ways and still does. But as social interactions became more sophisticated, especially around 4th grade, he would choose to be alone, even though he had friends and kids who liked him. It was confusing. He is charismatic and you might think shy, but his autism was (and is) quite masked to most people.

When his psychiatrist suggested autism (S22 was in high school) I was floored, although slowly over time things began to make sense and now it seems clear as day. I was pretty ignorant about autism, which isn't uncommon, even when it might run in your family, which I now suspect it does.

Even more surprising, though it wasn't a diagnosis, was when my son's psychiatrist had me re-read a 12-page court-ordered psyche eval conducted on my n/BPD ex. I had given the report to the psychiatrist for background years earlier. The psychiatrist wanted me to re-read it after working with my son for years. He wanted me to see how some behaviors could be considered consistent with autism. Meaning, if n/BPDx was autistic then it would make an even stronger case to have my son tested.

This is not to say that n/BPDx does not have a personality disorder because my god the shoe fits.

However, I suspect the base layer is autism.

n/BPDx was diagnosed in his 20s with bipolar, a diagnosis he rejected. Later, he was diagnosed with ADHD, which he accepted, in part (I believe) because he loved the stimulants. ADHD and stimulants led to mania and abuse of prescription medications and alcohol.

Suspecting n/BPDx might have autism does not change how I feel about the abuse or the chaos or anything that happened, because at the end of the day, n/BPDx was a man who made willful decisions that hurt people he claimed to love. It was impossible to remain in a relationship with him.

Whether autism or bipolar or ADHD or BPD or NPD or an addict, he did not want to do the hard work and get better. And by get better, I mean say and do it. Don't just say it.

If someone does not take responsibility and take that first terrifyingly vulnerable step to make sense of who they are and how they hurt people then the diagnoses are simply an expensive way to describe bad behavior. Maybe they bring up the compassion level although for me feeling compassion from a healthy distance is a form of self-respect.

When it comes to my kid, though, I wish I knew earlier. There are so many things to learn, like using declarative language instead of imperative language. (Declarative Language Handbook is a fantastic book if a child has speech delays or social learning deficits and happens to be great for communication, period).

I would've learned about double empathy and had him work with occupational therapists and I would've believed my son when he described sensations I didn't understand. Double empathy means there is equal need for non-ASD people to understand the experience of someone with ASD, and vice versa.

You're trying to figure things out with your ex, and that's tough because you might have tendencies that predispose you to caretake her depending on what she has or not. Whatever, she has, it's probably complex and could take a long time for her or people working with her to understand.

We can't know what is going on for her, and honestly, whether it's diagnosis A, B, or C, or DEF combined, you can't fix or rescue or change or save her. Everything we talk about here on this site with boundaries applies because it's based on behaviors.

Last, and this is just ... we don't really know what to make of this because the parallels seem almost made for tv. But this post I'm writing probably already sounds far-fetched so wth  

My current H has a BPD ex wife. H has three kids and two are diagnosed with autism. The revelation about autism and BPD on my side of things has H re-evaluating where autism comes from on his side. Neither of us are autistic. However, H is beginning to see his BPDx in a new light, especially given what we are learning about PDD-NOS (a subtype of autism) and research being done on trait clusters.

My apologies if I'm overstating things ... I feel grief about not recognizing my son's autism and rarely talk about it.

One of my husband's kids, my stepdaughter (26), is why I'm still here on this site because she displays behaviors consistent with BPD. Being an autistic person is not what I find difficult about her though. It's the BPD behaviors that I find challenging. While I'm sure autism compounds her struggles, it's her BPD traits that cause a majority of the problems.

And trying to figure out what is intentional or not just made me feel insane. I think it is more complex than that. What is important is that it isn't consistent, whether she wants it to be or not. One may seem more evil, so if you don't want to have those thoughts give her the benefit of the doubt that she has little control over these behaviors and without top shelf care and 110 percent commitment to getting better, over a period of years, you will likely see the same stuff rip through like a cycle.

SD26 sees a therapist but my sense is she is dabbling. We think she uses therapy to triangulate family members and sometimes gets a reality check that honestly strikes me as pretty simple stuff. Meaning, despite being diagnosed and seeing a therapist, I think there are limits to what wellness will look like for her.

I'm now at a place with people who are abusive, whether it's intentional or not intentional, driving by a diagnosis or not driven by one, where I withhold trust. I might find respect, and compassion, and concern, and even love, but trust, no.

And it's hard to have a meaningful relationship with out that.

[engiebpd]

It's good that they're providing services. Like you say, it can be helpful whether he's on the spectrum or not.

You know the saying that if you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum?

Anyway, the reason I was curious about autism is more about the hereditary nature of it.

My son is now 22. He doesn't present as "classic autism," or what used to be called Asperger's and is now considered Level 1 ASD.

In retrospect he used social strategies in very clever ways and still does. But as social interactions became more sophisticated, especially around 4th grade, he would choose to be alone, even though he had friends and kids who liked him. It was confusing. He is charismatic and you might think shy, but his autism was (and is) quite masked to most people.

When his psychiatrist suggested autism (S22 was in high school) I was floored, although slowly over time things began to make sense and now it seems clear as day. I was pretty ignorant about autism, which isn't uncommon, even when it might run in your family, which I now suspect it does.

Even more surprising, though it wasn't a diagnosis, was when my son's psychiatrist had me re-read a 12-page court-ordered psyche eval conducted on my n/BPD ex. I had given the report to the psychiatrist for background years earlier. The psychiatrist wanted me to re-read it after working with my son for years. He wanted me to see how some behaviors could be considered consistent with autism. Meaning, if n/BPDx was autistic then it would make an even stronger case to have my son tested.

This is not to say that n/BPDx does not have a personality disorder because my god the shoe fits.

However, I suspect the base layer is autism.

n/BPDx was diagnosed in his 20s with bipolar, a diagnosis he rejected. Later, he was diagnosed with ADHD, which he accepted, in part (I believe) because he loved the stimulants. ADHD and stimulants led to mania and abuse of prescription medications and alcohol.

Suspecting n/BPDx might have autism does not change how I feel about the abuse or the chaos or anything that happened, because at the end of the day, n/BPDx was a man who made willful decisions that hurt people he claimed to love. It was impossible to remain in a relationship with him.

Whether autism or bipolar or ADHD or BPD or NPD or an addict, he did not want to do the hard work and get better. And by get better, I mean say and do it. Don't just say it.

If someone does not take responsibility and take that first terrifyingly vulnerable step to make sense of who they are and how they hurt people then the diagnoses are simply an expensive way to describe bad behavior. Maybe they bring up the compassion level although for me feeling compassion from a healthy distance is a form of self-respect.

When it comes to my kid, though, I wish I knew earlier. There are so many things to learn, like using declarative language instead of imperative language. (Declarative Language Handbook is a fantastic book if a child has speech delays or social learning deficits and happens to be great for communication, period).

I would've learned about double empathy and had him work with occupational therapists and I would've believed my son when he described sensations I didn't understand. Double empathy means there is equal need for non-ASD people to understand the experience of someone with ASD, and vice versa.

You're trying to figure things out with your ex, and that's tough because you might have tendencies that predispose you to caretake her depending on what she has or not. Whatever, she has, it's probably complex and could take a long time for her or people working with her to understand.

We can't know what is going on for her, and honestly, whether it's diagnosis A, B, or C, or DEF combined, you can't fix or rescue or change or save her. Everything we talk about here on this site with boundaries applies because it's based on behaviors.

Last, and this is just ... we don't really know what to make of this because the parallels seem almost made for tv. But this post I'm writing probably already sounds far-fetched so wth  

My current H has a BPD ex wife. H has three kids and two are diagnosed with autism. The revelation about autism and BPD on my side of things has H re-evaluating where autism comes from on his side. Neither of us are autistic. However, H is beginning to see his BPDx in a new light, especially given what we are learning about PDD-NOS (a subtype of autism) and research being done on trait clusters.

My apologies if I'm overstating things ... I feel grief about not recognizing my son's autism and rarely talk about it.

One of my husband's kids, my stepdaughter (26), is why I'm still here on this site because she displays behaviors consistent with BPD. Being an autistic person is not what I find difficult about her though. It's the BPD behaviors that I find challenging. While I'm sure autism compounds her struggles, it's her BPD traits that cause a majority of the problems.

And trying to figure out what is intentional or not just made me feel insane. I think it is more complex than that. What is important is that it isn't consistent, whether she wants it to be or not. One may seem more evil, so if you don't want to have those thoughts give her the benefit of the doubt that she has little control over these behaviors and without top shelf care and 110 percent commitment to getting better, over a period of years, you will likely see the same stuff rip through like a cycle.

SD26 sees a therapist but my sense is she is dabbling. We think she uses therapy to triangulate family members and sometimes gets a reality check that honestly strikes me as pretty simple stuff. Meaning, despite being diagnosed and seeing a therapist, I think there are limits to what wellness will look like for her.

I'm now at a place with people who are abusive, whether it's intentional or not intentional, driving by a diagnosis or not driven by one, where I withhold trust. I might find respect, and compassion, and concern, and even love, but trust, no.

And it's hard to have a meaningful relationship with out that.

Thank you for sharing.  My ex has accused me of being autistic so it has messed with my head and made me research whether I was  an adult autistic.   I don't think I am.   If I am I may have done so much work growing up that made me fit in well.  

The social aspect of it is confusing.  There's too many factors at play.   I do have a ton of friends and close relationships.   The social parts that didn't work out for me in life are generally due to lack of understanding different cultures.  

She claims that I cant feel other people's emotions therefore I am autistic, therefore our son is autistic.  

But what you said here is probable, that she may have some autistic traits or is one.   I mentioned this to my siblings and they said to stop because nobody in our family is autistic.   They said if my son is one, it's probably coming from her family.

My ex does and say things that makes people feel weird.  I can't tell if it'd lack of awareness, lack of education, bpd, or autism.   She doesn't connect well with people because I know for certain that she doesn't want people to interact with her for a long period because she says some ridiculously weird things.  And her assessments of things is usually completely off.  

I can interact and talk with people for a long time and I am not afraid to show people who I am.  

It's possible she can be autistic herself but there are just so many factors.   When I explained her behaviors to some friends, they said this woman is a narcissist.   They don't know much about bpd or anything.   Like 5 friends of mine that have no connection with each other have told me that this is narcissistic behaviors.

The fact that she had an affair, wanted a divorce, and then proceeded to date and then get pregnant after I agreed to the divorce within matter of days shows them that she lacked some kind of empathy.   And she would explain to her family that it's okay because I agreed to it.  

Generally normal people hearing this story would be weirded out by it.  And the fact that she is oblivious to how other people would perceive her story is very strange.  Maybe autistic, lack of awareness, bpd, narcissist, who knows.  But something is just extremely off.  

[livednlearned]

She claims that I cant feel other people's emotions therefore I am autistic, therefore our son is autistic.

 

Do you think that she feels other people's emotions?

It's possible she can be autistic herself but there are just so many factors.   When I explained her behaviors to some friends, they said this woman is a narcissist.   They don't know much about bpd or anything.   Like 5 friends of mine that have no connection with each other have told me that this is narcissistic behaviors.

Having autism doesn't mean you can't have narcissistic traits. 

something is just extremely off.  

How do you think she'll feel if you both lived in the same apartment complex and you began dating someone else? Maybe not right away but eventually?

[engiebpd]

 

Do you think that she feels other people's emotions?

Having autism doesn't mean you can't have narcissistic traits.  

How do you think she'll feel if you both lived in the same apartment complex and you began dating someone else? Maybe not right away but eventually?

 

Do you think that she feels other people's emotions?

Having autism doesn't mean you can't have narcissistic traits.  

How do you think she'll feel if you both lived in the same apartment complex and you began dating someone else? Maybe not right away but eventually?

She is probably BPD (diagnose bipolar) so she has a heighten sense of emotions.   But that's the problem because she behaves and acts on her emotions which is what triggered our divorce. During our relationship, I actually thought she could be an empath,  so it appears she can sense emotions more.   I really don't know though because now it could just be full blown BPD.  And I found out recently that BPD AND empaths are connected in some way.

I'm more logical and a big part of my career was intense mental  competition.  My circle of friends and I are heavy researchers and are former competitive gamers.   This history of mine allows me to know how to approach anything i learn or research with rational and reasoning.    I guess this makes me appear more of a robot according to my ex.  It hurts her head when I or anyone provide logic to her for some weird reason.

She's dating around and openly talks to me about her dating life.  I try to use logic to separate my emotions.  People think I'm crazy for allowing this but imo it provides me with some Intel as to what can happen in my future for myself and my boy.

She openly says I can date anyone so it should be okay if I have a new romantic partner.  But these are just things she says.  Who knows what will happen when she actually sees me with someone. But the fact that she sees that I am okay with her dating around and possibly have a new bf (this is not her affair partner btw),   she can't really say much.  They just can't come into this current apartment we live at with my 3 year old.  I told her she needs to wait until we physically separate.

 This new guy shes hanging out with is so into her that he may help her cosign the new apartment with her.  She still has strong feelings for the affair guy but he is just playing her and she can't see it.   Apparently she's not into the new guy as much.  We will see though.

I am a bit far from dating though.  I have to do a lot of rebuilding and self improvement.   Also I want to make sure my 3 year old will be okay.

[livednlearned]

Not that it matters what I think  but I find "empath" to be based on pseudo science. It's often used by people who seem to think it's based on being highly empathetic.

My stepdaughter claims to be an empath yet she is often so self-absorbed that she doesn't think about how her behaviors affect other people, only herself.

What she has is a hypervigilant radar that scans the faces and behaviors of people around her. She is often astute that people are experiencing emotions but rarely accurate about them.

Mostly she is an "empath" when she is highly distressed and emotional about inaccurate, often negative perceptions she assigns to others. Her perception becomes accurate only after she drives them nuts with her need to work through beefs of her own creation.

I'm sure there are people who take on the emotions of others to a degree that is beyond the norm. However, I think many people conflate "emotional sensitivity" with "empath" and probably aren't necessarily known for being "empathetic."

[Turkish]

I used to think I was something like an empath into my 20s, maybe even early 30s. In retrospect, I had poor boundaries.

[engiebpd]

I used to think I was something like an empath into my 20s, maybe even early 30s. In retrospect, I had poor boundaries.

I Turkish.   I sometimes don't even know anymore.   I've watched so many videos on boundaries.   The general belief is that it is almost impossible to draw boundaries with bpd.   I feel like I did a pretty good job of it in my marriage the 1st few years but then let some slide because I thought they were emotional.   When the boundaries started getting worse, which coincidently is after having our first child (now I'm stuck), I pushed us into counseling immediately.

Counselor started working on it with my ex.   For me, it was the constant blaming, assuming every little thing is my fault.  An example here would be the baby waking up crying, I'd go to the crib to grab him.  She runs in and sees him crying and would say "omg what are you doing, you made him cry again".  And constant criticisms.

I don't have much experience with a relationship with a healthy mentally stable adult female so I don't know how they would take boundaries.   Will they stay around it until they know you're stuck?  Or will they respect it for life?  

I mean after the baby is 3 aka I am more stuck, she pushes the boundaries more.  

Do you still think you had poor boundaries?   I can't imagine you would just allow something that is common sense to me like flirting and cheating.   Some boundaries can be taught because some people don't know how certain things are disrespectful... so you teach them and they learn.  

But in my case, I can't even tell if I am a person that had poor boundaries or my ex a person that maintained those boundaries until she knows I was "stuck" with her aka having a baby.

I guess an example would be like an nba superstar that would remain faithful until he has 4 kids with his wife and made a ton of money thinking that she will now no longer leave him so he can get away with a lot.

[ForeverDad]

My ex too claimed she was an empath.  Small world!

[engiebpd]

Our marriage counselor during our relationship was pushing my ex to do individual therapy and the counselor was upset at one point when she found out my ex wasn't doing it. 

Any possible reason?   

So earlier this year, my psychiatrist who is also my ex's psychiatrist told me that it would be good for me to do individual therapy and also my ex.   But when I was in the appt with the pysch, she says that I should go given all that I am going through is extremely difficult for anyone.   

I was a little paranoid why she was pushing me to do it and also I am a bit tired of spending $ on so much therapy lately.

I told her that I am listening to a lot of podcasts and also use the forums online for support and think that should help for the time being.

Is there any theories you guys may have as to why I would need individual therapy in light of all that I am going through?

Is she telling me to go so that I can learn that I am being abused and that she nor the marriage counselor would openly say  this because my ex is also their client?

I wonder because when I booked 2 sessions with a professional from YouTube, she was much stronger with the negative viewpoints about my ex.   Please help me understand this.  Thank .you

[ForeverDad]

I told her that I am listening to a lot of podcasts and also use the forums online for support and think that should help for the time being.

that should help for the time being is the operative phrase.  We here in peer support do encourage new members (and the lurkers too) to take time to inform themselves of what they're dealing with, plus skills and strategies how to address it.  After all, you can't repair a house without tools, plans and instructions, right?

However, and this is a huge however, if the poor behaviors remain, then what?  Do you want the rest of your life to be so abysmally impacted?

That's why the counseling (or therapy if you prefer the word) now shifts to include a separate and personal approach.  If the other person refuses meaningful therapy, then that is a strong signal life will continue to be dysfunctional.  In that case it is up to you to decide what YOU will do in your own life, which is why personal counseling is a positive.

Does that make sense?  You both are adults, no one can tell you what to do or not do if you don't agree.

• Your spouse is free to seek or to refuse additional personalized help.
• YOU are free to seek or to refuse additional personalized help.

[engiebpd]

Thank you Foreverdad.  I may just be paranoid.  I went to marriage counseling for over 2 years with my ex and a part of me felt like the marriage counselor milked our $.  We did it twice a month and it costed $400 a month.

I continued to go because I was was fighting so hard for the relationship and my son.  I didn't want us to divorce but I was getting destroyed by the constant arguments.  And the moments where we went 3 weeks + without sessioons, I was get into arguments with her and I was trying to get it to stop by explaining the behaviors to the counselor.


It got to the point where my ex would think i am just going in sessions "ratting" her out.   The weird thing is that the counselor seem to only give us strategies on what to do but never really explain the why's.   For example, she would tell me not to take the bait when my ex would say x,y,z.   And this actually worked because it does prevent us from arguing, I learned from YouTube that she was teaching me Grey rock essentially.

But then after some time without getting angry for probably a year, my ex went into counseling and claimed I was emotionless and was a robot.  So that became a problem.   My counselor got my ex to a psychiatrist and they put her on zoloft.   Then when my ex had the affair and showed mania behavior, counselor went to the psychiatrist and said that my ex may be on wrong meds and needs to be on bipolar meds.  This is when she became diagnosed bpd.


Overall it was just so difficult to distinguish what was happening in our sessions looking back.   Was my ex gas lighting the counselor so often that it took so long for the marriage counselor to figure out what was going on?  Or was counselor milking us?

While it is my ex-s fault that we are divorcing but she told me she doesn't like our marriage counselor anymore because she thinks our counselor failed our marriage and that it felt like she was just stringing us and treating us like a business.

I guess that's why I am hesitant to do individual counseling becuase we have poured so much $ over this and now we are divorcing.

The forums and YouTube has been helping me and I thank you all so much.

Based on what I just said, do u think the counselor wasn't telling us or me everything, or did the continued therapy take so long because my ex is just that bad?

[Emaanbillah]

My marriage was great at first and then later it was "manageable" though becoming slowly worse.  What drastically triggered our relationship's implosion was having a child.  It happened so drastically we never got to have a second child.  I wonder whether that's the case with others here like you?

Yes, that has been the case with me as well. In the end, I had to decide to provide a household free of this behavior even if for just 50% of the time.

@engiebpd - counseling or any other form of support is helpful in that it provides another perspective on your situation and is another resource to help one cope with such a situation. Additionally, therapy also helps you come to terms with the limits of your capabilities. I lucked out with a good therapist who has experience with BPD behaviors.

Additionally, each time that I gave in to BPDw (who also had bipolar), the subsequent incidents would be even more disruptive and unpredictable. In the end, I had to come to the realization that even if I could have the BPDw go to therapy for herself, I cannot make them implement those techniques when they are calm, much less when dysregulated.

[engiebpd]

Yes, that has been the case with me as well. In the end, I had to decide to provide a household free of this behavior even if for just 50% of the time.

@engiebpd - counseling or any other form of support is helpful in that it provides another perspective on your situation and is another resource to help one cope with such a situation. Additionally, therapy also helps you come to terms with the limits of your capabilities. I lucked out with a good therapist who has experience with BPD behaviors.

Additionally, each time that I gave in to BPDw (who also had bipolar), the subsequent incidents would be even more disruptive and unpredictable. In the end, I had to come to the realization that even if I could have the BPDw go to therapy for herself, I cannot make them implement those techniques when they are calm, much less when dysregulated.

This is my conclusion with this divorce.  It is better for my child to be alone with me 50% so I can teach him better in life.   Everything went from good to 2.5 years of needed marriage counseling and then absolute implosion the last 9 months.  Everything went immediately bad after having our first kid.  We wanted at least 3, and we were working on the 2nd.   Thank God she didn't get pregnant again with me.   She completely nuked our family financially, mentally, and physically.    It's so tragic.

I was telling a friend today that I never believed in divorce especially with a child, but I am witnessing and experiencing a situation where there is no choice. 

I will look into my individual therapy.   I am a week from moving out and getting paperwork signed this week.  I am just so exhausted...

[Turkish]

Don't underestimate how much positive influence you can have if only half of the time. Though divorced 5 years now from the guy she left me for, it was a lot of dysfunction. I don't shame or accuse her, but I think that on some level my ex appreciates me being there for the kids.

Tonight, she stopped by to get uniforms and asked me to watch the kids later next month when she was going to a "next level" meditation retreat in another state. I had already watched them on some of her days when she went to a weekend meditation seminar in another part of the state last month. No problem. I'll take any extra time i can get with the kids. If things like that help her cope, then more power to her and I'll support it, no matter what I think.

Yesterday when I and the kids were at a BBQ with my friends, D11 said that mommy told her and S13 that they needed to be quiet in the mornings not to disturb her morning meditation. To my values? That means she's into herself rather than being a mother/parent. If it helps her from being "aggro" to the kids,  then more power to her, even if D11 comments upon it.

[livednlearned]

when I was in the appt with the pysch, she says that I should go given all that I am going through is extremely difficult for anyone.   

I was a little paranoid why she was pushing me to do it and also I am a bit tired of spending $ on so much therapy lately.

Do therapy! Marriage counseling revealed that your wife is troubled in ways that are probably co-morbid. Meaning, biological plus trauma. There was a lot there.

You've endured a lot and there is more to come, and now it's time to focus on you and you alone.

Youtube and peer support and other sources will help you intellectually understand. Therapy can help you process what is specific to you and your experience, your emotions, your history, your challenges under the care of someone skilled to walk you through new terrain, in person. Without your ex.

Related: I understand how it makes your life easier to have your ex live nearby but there's also something to be said about clean slate and strong boundaries. You deserve to define who you are without her chiming in. It might be that individual therapy helps you see the trade-offs more clearly so you can recover from what you've been through, and let there be a silver lining to all this suffering.

[engiebpd]

She signed and notarized the judgement today for 50/50.  She  looked to make sure it said joint physical custody.

I am not the one that would do sneaky things.  I was only worried that she falls in love with some guy and go with her feelings even at the sacrifice of my 3 year old and myself.  

I got very emotional about it when I drove it to our mediators office.   She eventually agreed to what she said she would do.   It was so tough because she was so unpredictable earlier this year.    The affair guy is in and out and it appears she may realize he's just doodling around.  

She's dating a new guy now who is very into her and wants commitment.  I think this factored into her signing it easier.

I don't know what to say everybody.  I feel like she is still that good person except she's a child in an adults body.  Doesn't know exactly what she's doing.  It made me really sad.   I never take advantage of her and I was praying for a fair 50/50 hoping she would not go court battle with over our child.  It would've been too devastating.

I told her in the past that I will still be there for her as a family member since we shared a child together.   We wanted to make the best and easiest decision for him.   So far, it seems like she is actually going that route with me.   I do know though that this may have been done due to her current bad situation.   With the affair guy, she thought she was upgrading her life so she pretty much dumped our marriage and wanted to take the Baby 2.5 hours away from me and his cousins (our hometown).

I'm mixed of emotions and I was listening to Sam Vaknins youtube video "separating from a bpd" and it gave me such great insight.  We pretty much have to be as soft as possible when separating and not induce trauma.   I recommend it for anyone in my situation.   He says the goal is to free yourself and avoid making a life long enemy.  

He also said that we have to also admit our faults in the separation and maybe that may have been due to being a rescuer and poor judgement on our partner decisions. I can see this but also can see how even the smartest can make these mistakes.  Not everyone learns about mental illness growing up.

This is tough, I am feeling so sorry for her even though I have been nearly destroyed in this marriage.