Will or will not break up

[lookingforpen]

We met in July; by August we were dating seriously. By September we already spoke of marriage. She was excited, me too. In December I told her mother my intentions. By February I intended to propose.

But then, I had my second thoughts. Throughout this period we had 3 or 4 fights only, and they were all about the same subject.

In the first time, we were seeing each other almost daily and I was feeling it was too much. I suggested to her whether we were not seeing each other too much, she was very consternated. I deem myself innocent here, because I said it very lovingly.

Second time, we travelled for the weekend and when we got home, she wanted to spend the night together and I asked her if she wasn't tired of me as well (meaning, I was tired of being together). She was very upset. Here I take the blame, for the wording I used. 

Third time, it was because I took her out for our "date-anniversary" but didn't make a reservation so had to switch restaurant. Also I didn't want desert as it was a weekday and I was tired, and she did throw a fit. I deem myself innocent here as well - I made a mistake regarding the reservation but her reaction was not proportional to the mistake; as for not wanting to have desert, that is not cause for fight.

Fourth time. An astrologer friend gratuitously warned me that she has an astrological configuration ("aspectless moon") that  makes her dominating, that she would absorb me and suffocate me. The warning troubled me (because it did seem to express something that I was feeling), and I ended up sharing what I had been told with her. From then on things terribly soured. She resented me for not having defended her against the astrologer, and saw me as weak. If a friend of hers had said something negative about me, she said, she would take none of it.

Fifth time, it was when she asked me whether I would shop for wedding ring that weekend and I didn't provide an immediate answer. She pressed the subject and I resented the question, as I felt that to be undue pressure. She got angry that I had set too great expectations, and that it was all shattered now - she would now remake her plans. It seems like a fit compromise.

By then, I was no longer so much in love, and in fact that was the reason for me resenting the probing. I was beginning to realize that I was feeling exhausted, yawning, resenting lack of free time; indeed, if we were not together, we were communicating, and she would often inquire what I was doing.

Sixth time - actually a continuation of the fifth time. In order to appease her for the fourth time, I bought her a "commitment ring" (silver), which is not properly a wedding ring. Then I made a big mistake - one day, I removed it, and it was the mother of fights. We have agreed to take time apart after this fight.

Where does BPD come into this? Does she even have it?

1. My own therapist suggested that this is the case. In the past I have asked her whether that was the case, and communicated that I would lovingly deal with it (as I felt I was able to, at the time). She said that she went through the psychiatrist and that this wasn't the diagnosis.

2. Nonetheless, when I met her mother, her mother told me as we said good-bye: "Set boundaries with her".

3. Her previous relationships were short-lived, tumultuous - one of them had physical aggression.

4. By her own admission, she has severe abandonment issues. In many of our fights she acknowledged she reacted excessively, but attributed that to "being triggered".

5. She has told me some times that I am the only good thing in her life, and that all else that she does is boring compared to me.

6. When we are together in social settings, she is excessively bound to me, and avoids being alone at all times. If I leave, she seeks me out, even if I left her with a party of friendly people.

7. She is very anxious and damages her fingers when she is anxious.

So... I do suspect borderline, but don't have a clear conclusion. I have read a book about BPD and my guess is that this is what I am dealing with. She has difficulty respecting boundaries and I have difficulties setting them. I was previously infatuated and very willing to face even BPD, but now, I am without energy. She is hugely perceptive, caught that up, and probed me about my feelings and demanded reassurance. When I confessed to her that love is not precisely what I am feeling now, things took a downturn.

I have sought to learn more about this, to reach an assertive conclusion. I think that I am an autistic (Asperger), and have a very sure need of personal space. I think that she has BPD, and has much difficulty giving me space. Moreover, as I read reports, I have seen veritable terror stories, and while this has not been my case so far, I am afraid that more is to come ahead (the conflicts seem to escalate).

I am not sure that there is a way to reverse break up now. I am not even sure that I want it. I will suffer very much for it, and she will too, but I thing that this is where we'll head to.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

Welcome to the forum and I'm sorry nobody has responded to you yet.  You're in a tough situation that many of us can relate to.  Hopefully it helped sharing your story some.

The biggest red flag for me was the mother telling you to set boundaries- mommas know best.  

For pwBPD, the fear of abandonment is always present and from the way my BPD daughter describes it, it feels like a mountain lion chasing you through the forest.  No matter how fast you run, the lion is faster, more agile, and you're in his territory.  There's no way to escape it...you just keep running for your life.

Reading through your arguments, they all revolved around her wanting to be close to you while you wanted some space.  AKA, abandonment.  Just know that this wasn't your fault- you were doing what felt natural, while it absolutely devastated her and made her feel rejected, unloved, worthless, etc.  It's definitely not fair by any means, but I'll point you back to my daughter's example- when she feels loved, the world is perfect.  When she doesn't feel loved, there's that mountain lion roaring towards her once again.  It's a fight or flight situation with grave consequences.

Can your relationship be saved?  Absolutely.  But it will require work from both of you.  Read through the help section here to gain some communication tools that are invaluable, and feel free to ask the community here any questions.

[SaltyDawg]

We met in July; by August we were dating seriously. By September we already spoke of marriage. She was excited, me too. In December I told her mother my intentions. By February I intended to propose.
This is pretty fast.  Not terribly fast, but fast none-the-less.  The infatuation period lasts typically up to 2 years for a normal person, so you are likely feeling more infatuation that true love.

But then, I had my second thoughts.
  Your gut is telling you something, proceed with caution.

Throughout this period we had 3 or 4 fights only, and they were all about the same subject.
There are bound to be differences, it is how fights/conflicts are handled will determine if a relationship is a healthy one or a toxic one.

In your fights, you do describe the concept of 'enmeshment' which is a BPD trait, but is not exclusive to BPD.

By then, I was no longer so much in love, and in fact that was the reason for me resenting the probing. I was beginning to realize that I was feeling exhausted, yawning, resenting lack of free time; indeed, if we were not together, we were communicating, and she would often inquire what I was doing.
The infatuation mode is fading in your relationship.  More enmeshment like behaviors that could be attributable to abandonment issues.

Sixth time - actually a continuation of the fifth time. In order to appease her for the fourth time, I bought her a "commitment ring" (silver), which is not properly a wedding ring. Then I made a big mistake - one day, I removed it, and it was the mother of fights. We have agreed to take time apart after this fight.
Obviously this is triggering for her, possible abandonment issues here.

Where does BPD come into this? Does she even have it?

1. My own therapist suggested that this is the case. In the past I have asked her whether that was the case, and communicated that I would lovingly deal with it (as I felt I was able to, at the time). She said that she went through the psychiatrist and that this wasn't the diagnosis.
   Therapists are licensed, and if a licensed therapist suggest that there might be an issue based on your description.  Pause and evaluate.

2. Nonetheless, when I met her mother, her mother told me as we said good-bye: "Set boundaries with her".
  OMINOUS WARNING  Mother knows best! 

3. Her previous relationships were short-lived, tumultuous - one of them had physical aggression.
  Unstable relationships is Symptom number two behind Abandonment - this is a MAJOR RED FLAG.  Also if she was the aggressor [hit first] in the physical aggressions, this trait alone, indicates a statistical probability of 50% that she has diagnosable BPD!

4. By her own admission, she has severe abandonment issues. In many of our fights she acknowledged she reacted excessively, but attributed that to "being triggered".
  This is the number 1 symptom of the borderline!  It is also a symptom of codependents too, wich is not quite as severe as being a borderline.

5. She has told me some times that I am the only good thing in her life, and that all else that she does is boring compared to me.
This is a genuine compliment to you.  She really cares for you.  If she is a borderline, it also likely indicates that you are her FP [favorite person] - if you cross her, she can turn from idolizing you to hating you, white/black thinking in a moment's notice 0-100% flip in a second or few.  Have you experienced any of this in your arguments where she would be super nice and then rage at you the next second, and within a matter of a few minutes to a couple of days treat you super nice again as though nothing has happened?  If so, this is a  .  Also possible excessive feeling of 'emptiness' which is another symptom of the borderline.

6. When we are together in social settings, she is excessively bound to me, and avoids being alone at all times. If I leave, she seeks me out, even if I left her with a party of friendly people.
More abandonment issues.  Symptom #1.

7. She is very anxious and damages her fingers when she is anxious.
  - Damages her fingers?  Scratches them bloody?  If so, this is classic textbook self-harm, another symptom of the borderline.

I am not a professional; however, anyone that can read and comprehend, there are apparently 3 definite symptoms of being borderline, and another possible.  Being borderline requires 5/9 symptoms of the DSM V to be present, you have listed 4. 

So... I do suspect borderline, but don't have a clear conclusion. I have read a book about BPD and my guess is that this is what I am dealing with. She has difficulty respecting boundaries and I have difficulties setting them. I was previously infatuated and very willing to face even BPD, but now, I am without energy. She is hugely perceptive, caught that up, and probed me about my feelings and demanded reassurance. When I confessed to her that love is not precisely what I am feeling now, things took a downturn.
I also have difficulties setting boundaries, I know I have codependent traits, sounds like you might also, check with your own therapist on this one.

Being hugely perceptive is a trait of the borderline and the codependent and many caretaker type personality. 

With things taking a downturn, I advise extreme  .

I have sought to learn more about this, to reach an assertive conclusion. I think that I am an autistic (Asperger), and have a very sure need of personal space. I think that she has BPD, and has much difficulty giving me space. Moreover, as I read reports, I have seen veritable terror stories, and while this has not been my case so far, I am afraid that more is to come ahead (the conflicts seem to escalate).
I am glad you are willing to look at yourself.  Once the infatuation period wears off for her, it will likely become a 'terror story.'  I have been to this dance twice, the first one wore off after 3 months, and I was able to get out of it ethically.  The 2nd one the infatuation period wore off after 5 years 2 months [exceptionally excessive not normal] and all broke loose.  I am still with my uBPDw after 22 years since we started dating and been married for just under 20 years.  There are good times and bad times, and the bad times are really bad.

I am not sure that there is a way to reverse break up now. I am not even sure that I want it. I will suffer very much for it, and she will too, but I thing that this is where we'll head to.
This is very insightful of you.  I won't tell you to run; however, you need to do what is best for you!

If you want it to work, it will be a lot of work, and both of you must do your parts.  Since she is partially self aware.  I would strongly suggest that she gets herself evaluated with your observations for a more accurate assessment by a psychiatrist.

Before 'popping' the question, have a very serious conversation about the following:

1.  Has she ever thought or tried to commit suicide?  Most boderlines have done so at least once in their lives.  If she answers yes, this is another  .
2.  Has she hit someone, or you [even if it doesn't hurt] or broken stuff in anger?  Yes is a 
3.  Do you/her want children?  Children will not fix any mental health issues, if anything they make them much, much worse.  Yes is a .

If you want to do an informal assessment, I highly recommend the 3rd edition of Randi Kreger's book "Stop Walking on Eggshells". 

In any event proceed with extreme  .  Make sure that the marriage date is at least 2 years after your first date.  This will allow you to have more time to assess if this relationship is right for you.

However, do listen to your 'gut' feeling.

Take care, and ask questions.

My number one recommendation is to do self-care, whatever that might look like for you.  Exercise, alone time, escape in a book/TV series/Movie, etc.

[lookingforpen]

Hi SaltyDawg thanks for giving me your perceptions. Indeed I have been reading "Stop walking on eggshells" (actually listening to it, in audiobook form).

I am at the point where I don't mind whether there is a diagnosis or not, the condition seems to explain the behavior and the coping mechanisms seem suited to it.

I appreciate your words of caution; that is precisely what I decided to do. We dialed it back, it was tense, but we now have an understanding on that - we are *dating*, not *betrothed*. However I am no longer as affectionate as I was, or willing to make to great plans about the future, or indeed as committed to the relationship. Be that as it may 2 years is a good working rule.

The thing that I wonder, however, is this: however much this condition is terrible, and exhausting, there seems to be something there that attracts, no?

[SaltyDawg]

The thing that I wonder, however, is this: however much this condition is terrible, and exhausting, there seems to be something there that attracts, no?

There are many positives to being with a borderline -- it is a matter of extremes good/bad, black/white, a level 11 out of 10 in each direction, an impossible number to maintain; however, there is no other feeling like it in the world when it happens to you in a good way.  The level of affection and obsession that they have towards you is exceptionally intoxicating to the point of being an addiction, at least it was for me.

There are also many other good things too.  Generally speaking if a relationship is working reasonably well, the good times eclipse the bad, it is really really good.  However, when the bad times eclipse the good, it is really really bad.

I learned way too late, perhaps at the brink of destruction normal ways of communicating do not work in my relationships with borderlines.  Learn the SET method of communication, it is inefficient; however, it is designed to be supportive, empathing, while remaining truthful. 

Learn what triggers her.  Learn DBT skills to manage her, and she can manage herself too if she is self aware.

What you are describing is the push-pull dynamic of the trauma bond, and it is a an exceptionally strong bond if you are not familiar with it.  It was first identified in the 1970's during a multi-day bank robbery that involved hostages, in essence you are the hostage of the borderline's obsession.  If you want to know the technical details of it, look up Stockholm Syndrome, as that is the technical term for it.

Take care, and be extremely careful, and learn the ways of the borderline.  I am drawn to borderlines like a moth is to the flame, and it is very easy to get burned.