Help with wife

[Couscous]

I think you did really well under the circumstances.

If they do release her, my thinking is that if they it’s probably because they have determined that, in their professional opinion, she is not intent on following through with her threats. Maybe you can ask your therapist about how that works. It might set your mind at ease if you had confidence that her threats are for purposes of manipulation and that she doesn’t truly desire to end her life.

[Couscous]

And yet even as I want a separation and very possibly a divorce I can't stop feeling like an a$$hole because she and her mom are telling me how much she needs me to be the "hope" to move on with her life. Am I wrong for not answering the phone? Am I wrong for not wanting to be "the hope" ? I go back to something someone posted on this thread earlier that I am not her savior or her killer and if I decide I want space or a divorce or to be "all-in" either way it is not fair for all her hopes to be pinned on me as my responsibility.

You are so not wrong. What is wrong is what both she, and especially her mother (?) are doing.

My hope for you is that you will find the strength to stop talking to either them and if need be, to block both of them on your phone. Her mother is clearly an extremely dysfunction person, and this likely explains why her daughter developed BPD in the first place. BPD gets passed on through the generations, so if you were to have kids with her there is a high probability that your kids will develop it.

You might find this therapist reaction to the movie, The Notebook, to be of interest. He says that a person who makes suicide threats should absolutley not be involved in a romantic relationship. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzW3tQFV5M0

[Cat Familiar]

I know how difficult it is.    You are in a severely dysfunctional relationship and you ended up there one step at a time. Like most of us here, you likely dismissed some of the behaviors you encountered as *odd* and hoped that things would get better with time. But they didn’t. Things got worse, maybe incrementally, maybe quickly, likely at the point when she felt you were committed to her.

And now you are being put in the position by both her and her mother, that you are responsible for whether or not she lives or dies. Had this notion been presented to you at the outset of the relationship, I have no doubt that you would never have involved yourself with this woman.

You are fortunate to not have children with her. That she imagines that being a *family* will save her is illusory. Once children enter into the picture, the level of stress she will experience will far surpass what she feels now, and what you currently are experiencing will become your *new normal*.

You realize this intellectually, but your feelings lag behind. Yes, it’s very painful to disengage from someone who is mentally ill, who claims their survival depends upon your continued engagement with them. But she somehow managed to survive prior to knowing you, and it is very likely that she will continue to survive without you.

In fact, it’s very likely that she will play the same drama with the next guy should you decide to divorce. (My ex did the same suicide threats in his subsequent relationship. It was very strange to have his girlfriend confide in me and need to be supportive of her.)

No matter what you do eventually, it’s going to hurt. One type of hurt is short-lived. The other type is, as you know, giving up yourself to try and rescue someone who will purposefully, over and over, keep trying to drown.

[ForeverDad]

It took me quite a long time to come to an epiphany.  In a general sense, we cannot fix our disordered loved ones.  Support in effective ways, Yes, but fix, No.  Fixing is up to the individual and to a lesser extent the professionals.

All of us were in close relationships with our acting-out disordered ones.  Yet it seemed any attempts to fix were sabotaged.  Why?  Because of our close relationships.

BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships.  The closer it is, the more evident it is, if not at first then over time.  And what is closer and more emotion filled than a spouse?  Someone in a peripheral relationship such as a brief encounter at a store or restaurant or even coworkers may notice something is "off" but they don't get the full brunt of the impact as we experienced.

This is why, if there is any real hope of recovery, it is a trained professional (counselor, therapist, focused intensive care team) who have the best chance.  They know they can never risk emotionally involvement or else the patient can wield emotional leverage over them.

Conversely, our emotional relationship is what has been used against us in the past.  Often we can't even be sure the person did it unwittingly, there will usually be Denial that the person did it purposefully... and refuses to change for the better.  We don't have the objective and emotionless stance the professionals have.

Maybe the trained professionals will have a measure of success, or maybe not, but we just have emotional liability rather than empowerment.  Rather than "trying to help" the other person we would do better to proactively "help" ourselves.  Yes, that old flight analogy, "Put on your own oxygen mask first before trying to help others."

[Falcon2437]

Thank you Couscous.

Very interesting video (and interesting idea for looking through many movies. Really like the idea) and it's probably right that someone suicidal shouldn't be in a romantic relationship. It's interesting watching that scene because the way that happens with the ferris wheel is obviously not as visceral or extreme as is happening in my relationship but then again... it is the same just without the cinematic backdrop.

Some of the stuff about the guy having to change everything about his personality being toxic resonates with me too because I do feel like I lost so much of myself just to be what she needs.

Also the "if someone says they need time to think, give them time to think" obviously resonates with me since that is literally what I am asking for and not allowed to have.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Falcon,

Your feelings are important.  Cat and Wendy are spot on - you are in a trauma bond and it is like a foggy drug - you need to detox with space.  Your life, your world, your feelings are the ones that matter - only you can save yourself.  You know what you have to do - you just need the courage and fortitude.  You can do this!

Tough love question:  challenge yourself -  do you feel that you are the one that is most qualified to save her?  Reality check -  no.  She has many more qualified people than you (doctors, police, hospitals, her mom) and what is wrong with her - NOTHING you do can fix it regardless of what she says.  Not with you giving her kids, not with coming home, not with answering the phone.  If you suddenly weren’t there and were hit by the proverbial bus - she would be ok with the caretakers around her. You need to remind this to yourself.  It is not easy - I know I had to do the same.  If feels awful and cruel, and sickening, and panicky.  You feel like you are an a$$ for ignoring her and will beat yourself up as you feel like it goes against everything you have been taught about being nice and helping others- but this is your emotions and the trauma bond talking - it isn’t the truth.

Step one complete - move out. . Congratulations - correct move.

You know what you need to do for the rest of your plan.  Every fiber in your body knows what is right and what is wrong.  - Stick to your plan.  It is yours - only you can do it.

Observation/recommendation - Your phone is a nemesis right now for both of you.  She won’t/can’t stop if you keep answering.   It is science - they proved it with mice hitting a food bar.  Food dropped intermittently just makes the mouse hit the food bar harder.  You are intermittently dropping food and she is hitting the bar harder.  Stop giving food, or make it planned food if you must (I.e. I will call you for 10 min on Tuesday at 7:00am.)

You got this!

[Couscous]

Also the "if someone says they need time to think, give them time to think" obviously resonates with me since that is literally what I am asking for and not allowed to have.

Fortunately, you don’t need their permission.  

Yes, they may (and probably will) accuse you of being mean, selfish, heartless, etc., but all that matters is that you know that you are not doing what you’re doing with the intention of hurting anyone.

And really, at the end of the day, their (alleged) opinion of you does not actually matter. Just because in their opinion your need for space means that you are a terrible person doesn’t make it so. I say alleged because because most of the time people with BPD make these accusations with the purpose of manipulating us and don’t even genuinely believe in what they are saying — so why should we?

[Notwendy]

She "needs to know we are working towards a family and a future together" to get through it all. I understand she truly might feel that way but to me it is again her putting all of her hopes, dreams, prayers and potential future squarely on me.

Once I realized she was doing that I was able to take a step back again today and respect my own boundaries even if she won't.  I need a separation. And yet even as I want a separation and very possibly a divorce I can't stop feeling like an a$$hole because she and her mom are telling me how much she needs me to be the "hope" to move on with her life. Am I wrong for not answering the phone? Am I wrong for not wanting to be "the hope" ?

Let's look at what she and her mother are saying- "YOU need to be the hope for her".

In any of these statements - is there any concern for you and what you are going through? Is anyone asking about your feelings or maybe what they can do to support you?

All I see is "you need to do this" which is to agree to her emotional needs and wishes (we can't change someone's feelings).

Yes, you will be the bad guy to her in her scenario if you don't do this. ( see the Karpman triangle). It's not a comfortable situation to be the bad guy, but that is how she's going to see it and you can not change her thinking. Keep in mind though that her thinking doesn't make it true.
 
You are not wrong for being concerned about yourself in this situation.

Of course her mother wants you do this too. She's possibly been enabling her daughter as well and it's hard for a parent to be objective about their own child. She wants her child to be OK but that is not your responsibility. You can not fix this.

What do you need? You have said it- space and separation. You are allowed to have your own needs as well.

[Falcon2437]

Hi everyone, thank you all for the suggestions, encouragement and support. I was off the last couple of days and trying to really detox (so to speak) as best I could with everything.

Outdorenthusiast I do know that I am not the most qualified person (or close to it) to help her but yeah the way you described it is exactly how I feel. I do feel awful, cruel and like an a$$ but I know logically I am just doing what I need to for myself to survive and be happy.

As for things with my wife wBPD she has been in the hospital since Thursday and is getting released tomorrow. She called me maybe 10 times in the hospital and for the most part I did a good job ignoring it. I did answer once and gave her five minutes and during that time she did talk about how sorry she was, how she is on medication now, talking to group, feeling better and realizing that the way she handled and approached things was not okay. I don't know how to feel hearing this. So much of it is exactly what I have wanted for so long but do I really think that after three days everything is magically fixed? Of course not. So I told her that I think we still need to be staying separate for now and she did tell me that she'll give me the time I need. I'm struggling with if I need to just pull the cord and say no you know what I'm done or if I should give it another chance.

I know this is not a "stay or go" page and I'm not asking for help on that but I will ask that for people who have stayed with their partners how do you trust them? Because as I think about potentially staying I really don't know if I could ever give it a genuine shot again. The last few times we talked before the hospital I couldn't even look her in the eyes. I see her as my abuser, my tormentor, my rapist and I don't believe a word she says. I don't know how to give us a genuine shot if that is how I feel so I was wondering with people on this message board who have been in relationships that improved how did you approach it?

Thank you

[Outdorenthusiast]

Falcon-

It is normal to struggle with a trauma bond.  You don’t have to know the answers immediately - sometimes you have to sit with the uncomfortable until it is clear for you.  However give yourself some space to think.  Someone on here once said it takes 90 days separation.

As to your question, I can only speak from personal experience.  My wife is high functioning and is easier than what I have read from others.  Less violent.  With therapy, there is a better chance of some of the extreme symptom remission (suicide attempts, yelling/screaming) with weekly counseling.  However the underlying dysfunction seems is always there - it is a part of them that can’t be removed or medicated.   For me at this point there is no trust, the only thing that is possible is radical acceptance that they are permanently broken and forever must be counter-measured.  I am sitting and marinating on that uncomfortable truth.  A 70+ year old posted on here and basically said as much.  Each person must decide if the good outweighs the bad, and accept that the bad will ALWAYS be there.  The only variance I am experiencing is the severity of her condition when she is in full time counseling.

[ForeverDad]

or if I should give it another chance...

The poor BPD behaviors typically are in cycles, sometimes referred to as an endless roller coaster ride.  In the middle it's virtually impossible to get off unscathed, but if the ride has pulled into the station, this is the right time to ponder getting off.  As some have noted, the best (or least bad) time to exit is when you have leverage to improve the outcome.

Do you really believe her promises to change for the better will last?  Therapists know that meaningful therapy lasts for years.  And even then they cannot promise how much it may help or for how long.

Is this the first time she's been hospitalized and assessed?  What leverage do you have for her to start and continue meaningful therapy?

Beware of making or accepting unrealistic promises.  Her promises today mean little, it's whether her behavior and perceptions - her actions - improve long term that count.

You will surely feel pressured to take her back.  Don't be driven by "FOG" - Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  It's okay if you've reached your limit.  It is what it is.  You're not Superman, nor are you an ogre.

[Cat Familiar]

Re: your question about people who’ve stayed in relationships with BPD partners…how do you trust them again?

My experience of two husbands with BPD leads me to believe that the disorder will always be present, despite promises of improved behavior. And those promises come when they feel the thread that binds you has become threadbare and on the verge of breaking.

Yes, they can improve their behavior for a while, but once the pressure is off (you’ve returned to the fold), that same behavior will once again emerge. (Think of it this way: imagine going to a job interview that’s high stakes and you put all your attention into putting your best foot forward. It’s exhausting, isn’t it? Then afterwards you relax with your buddies over a beer (or two) and you can be yourself again.) It’s the same with pwBPD (people with BPD). They can suppress the crazy for a while, but then they can’t and they let their guard down and once again, despite all the promises they might make, the BPD behavior returns in all its glory.

Regarding my marital history, my first husband apparently not only had BPD, but likely antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. He, like your wife, was abusive in many ways.

My current husband has a good moral compass and though he can act petty, petulant, irritable, self absorbed, he never intends to be unkind and if he behaves that way and is called out, he feels remorseful. BPD exists on a spectrum and many of our members here have partners who only have traits, not fullblown BPD.

You have quite a history already of unkind and abusive behaviors from her, and as Maya Angelou said, “When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.”

[Notwendy]

I will second Cat's post in that I think the behaviors vary as it's on a spectrum and each person is weighing both the decision to stay or leave according to individual situations. PD's tend to be fixed, and while therapy is known to help, that is for people who are motivated to work at it for an extended time. I would imagine they are not on the severe end and must have some insight to the impact of their behaviors on others.

My own BPD mother is at the severe end. Her behaviors are extreme and she dissociates to the point where she doesn't learn from them. During her "feeling better stage" it's like a "dry erase board" as if her behaviors didn't happen. But they did happen.

She also externalizes the solution to her emotional distress. It's always the next thing, the vacation, the new this, if only so and so would do that. My father would provide this for her, and it didn't solve her emotional distress as that was not the cause in the first place.

From my perspective, my father was her caretaker and she requires a lot of care, both emotionally and in her daily tasks. I think you can assess your situation with your wife according to the behavior you have seen already, not promises made in the moment or the idea of a quick recovery. Yes, my mother can also hold it together briefly but eventually the other behavior happens because it's a part of the disorder.

[Falcon2437]

Thank you guys again!

Outdore and Forever - I definitely want to give myself the time to think and figure things out. I totally understand what you both mean about having no trust, there will forever need to be countermeasures and the endless roller coaster ride. I feel like if I go back that is exactly what the rest of my life will be like.

I don't know how much I believe her promises will last. I do believe she genuinely thinks that things are getting better and that she is willing to put in the work forever but after everything that has happened I don't know if that is what will actually happen or if she is just scared and willing to do anything right now.

She was taken in for a few hours before but this is the first time she's stayed overnight.

Cat and Notwendy - Thank you yeah I am definitely worried that the "crazy" can only be suppressed for so long. I definitely feel I have a similar relationship to your parents notwendy where she did tell me how we always needed the next new thing whether it was moving in, engagement, buying a house and ultimately having kids. She definitely does have a "dry erase board" too where right now she is thinking she'll come out of therapy/hospital, I'll have a few days apart and then everything will be forgiven. But that's where one of my main issues is, I want to forgive, but I can't exactly forget. The last time we talked in person she got upset with me for not looking at her in the eyes and having withdrawn body language. She was right. I was looking down and away from her but the reality is when I look at her right now I see my abuser and tormentor, not my wife who I fell in love with in the first place.


Unrelated to previous posts the newest thing today is she's being held one extra day because the person who signs off on releases isn't there. The doctors apparently told her and my mother-in-law that she is also dealing with PTSD (which given everything she has been through I do believe is a possibility). My MIL is now telling me that by ignoring her calls I am "adding trauma" because my wife just needs to hear my voice. I know that is manipulative at best but I guess I just wanted some reassurance that if I don't want to talk to her at the moment I don't have to, right?

[kells76]

My MIL is now telling me that by ignoring her calls I am "adding trauma" because my wife just needs to hear my voice. I know that is manipulative at best but I guess I just wanted some reassurance that if I don't want to talk to her at the moment I don't have to, right?

Your W is in a very supportive place. Her care team will be able to do what is best for her and to help her cope with what she feels. If she feels traumatized then she can turn to a team member for support with those feelings.

The dynamic of her telling your MIL how she feels, and then your MIL telling you to do something, is not healthy and I cannot imagine it is one that a MH care team would say is a healthy dynamic.

It just struck me that it might actually be a lot more about how your MIL feels than how anyone else feels, interestingly. If your MIL can't cope with hearing that her D is struggling, then that may make her uncomfortable, and it's actually her turning to you to have you make her (MIL) feel better.

It is OK for you to decline to take those calls and to decline to participate in an unhealthy dynamic that no MH professional would suggest is helpful.

[Couscous]

My MIL is now telling me that by ignoring her calls I am "adding trauma" because my wife just needs to hear my voice.

Your MIL is quite mistaken. While it may be triggering for her, it’s not adding trauma. If anything it’s a very good thing this is happening right now so that trained professionals can help them both understand this. (I also question if past traumas are really being triggered, or if it’s more that she’s enraged because she’s not getting what she wants, when she wants it.)

If I could make one small suggestion, it would be for you to stop communicating with your MIL.

[Notwendy]

No you don't have to talk to her.

Her MIL is not thinking in your best interests. Surely she knows her daughter is difficult, even if she loves her. If you don't take care of her, MIL might have to do that. Of course she wants you to do that! But that isn't thinking of you. If you don't think of your own needs, who will? Not your wife and not your MIL.

Her mother may also be her enabler. It was similar with my father whose focus was on my mother. I think he did the best he could for us, but my mother was his priority, and we kids were enlisted to be her emotional caretakers as well. In his elder years, Dad got ill and I went to help out. He was being taken care of, as he was in the hospital. I was home alone with BPD mother and her behavior was extreme, raging at me, verbal and emotional abuse. I know she was stressed but that didn't give her the right to be abusive to me. She didn't care if I got sleep or not, she didn't care that I had my own children at home that I needed to get home to. Dad was focused on her. I realized I needed to have some boundaries. As you can imagine, I became the "bad person" in their scenario for that.

Dad then sent me what I thought was the strangest email. "I just want to be a happy family again". Who was happy? What he meant was "come back and meet BPD mother's needs and tolerate her behavior"  but there was no concern for my own well being or if my children needed a mother at home with them. It was just "meet mother's needs". Parents with PD's see their children's purpose as meeting their needs, not the other way around, but it's a parents' job to meet the child's needs ( up to adulthood- they don't need to be caretaking me but my kids needed me to be home with them).  What your MIL seems to be saying to you is "come back and caretake my daughter again so I don't have to worry so much about her". I agree with Couscous- you don't have to communicate with MIL either.

I do care about my parents but realized that the concern for well being was not reciprocal. My mother's needs are constant. Our conversations are about her needs. When I visit, it's about all the things I can do for her. Saying no to her is difficult as she gets upset and I really don't want to upset her but I have learned to allow myself to say no to things I am not willing to do.

You feel at alert around your wife due to her behavior. Her mental illness is not your responsibility and you not calling her is not the cause of her trauma. You aren't being mean to her, you are protecting yourself.

[Falcon2437]

Thank you guys again. I decided that I am not going to be answering the phone or calling. Couscous I think what you said is true that while me not answering might be "triggering" it doesn't mean that I am causing trauma, I am simply doing my best and taking care of myself at the same time.

I did find out from a voicemail from my MIL that my W was released from the hospital today (idk if they were lying about it being tomorrow or if something changed, I guess it doesn't really matter, what matters is she is out). My W is staying with my MIL and I will be at home with our dog. I plan to lock the bedroom door just in case but I really really really want to hold to my plan of taking some time and not engaging and with the help and support of this group I am going to follow through on that as best I can. Thank you all again.

[Turkish]

she "needs to know we are working towards a family and a future together" to get through it all.

Given all that you've endured of threats and abuse, does this sound like a plan based upon rational thought and self-awareness?

[Notwendy]

she "needs to know we are working towards a family and a future together" to get through it all.


The Karpman triangle dynamics can help you to understand the dynamics here. You have been put in either rescuer or persecutor position, either blamed for the issues or expected to fix them.

This statement inappropriately puts the responsibility of her feelings on you. You didn't cause her BPD and it's not in your power to fix this for her.

[Emaanbillah]

Hi Falcon,
Others have given excellent input regarding your situation. My perspective will be a lot less experienced than theirs but I will provide my own thoughts.

- First, you have put a lot of thought into your plan which is a good thing.
Get therapy to explore your own strengths and feelings, to understand your own self and what you are capable of and what you can put up with. This will help you answer any questions you may have about decisions regarding the relationship.

- as was mentioned earlier, boundaries are for yourself. If you think of boundary being for others, then you will inevitably have to face the dismay when those boundaries are crossed or violated. That being said, it is okay to be flexible with some boundaries. Allow yourself to forgive yourself if you are not able to strictly uphold the boundary because the boundary is meant to protect you, not be a source of anguish or grief. Try to determine what are your red lines(non negotiable), yellow lines (negotiable) and green lines(preferences).

- dealing with an individual with BPD can be disruptive on many fronts and some people try to protect themselves from feelings of guilt by projecting onto others. What your MIL is doing is not unlike what my exMIL did by sending audio clips after I had initiated separation. It can be hard but I would suggest letting those calls go to voicemail and either having a person you trust screen them or you listen to them when you are in a better mental state. I tried some of the suggested techniques to escape the Karpman drama triangle but it led to an escalation of hostility.

-feelings of guilt, panic are not unusual(see F.O.G. on this forum). This is also not helped by others unloading their feelings of guilt and responsibility on you. I still struggle with guilt when thinking about my entire separation and divorce proceeding. However I am trying to just accept the feeling and move on, while acknowledging my own limitations.

- the constant criticisms and blaming behaviors of BPD was one thing. Ironically, it was my concern toward my family members (that ex dbpdw) also threatened and toward managing the crisis and providing safe space for my child that eventually pushed me over the edge to end the relationship, despite at some level, also caring for dBPDw)

- one other point I will mention is that BPD can have manipulative suicidal threats but in some cases can also have actual suicide attempts (especially with comorbid depression). That being said, you cannot take responsibility for the BPD or their actions. The most you can do, (similar to a parent), is guide them and pray they turn out okay.

- I will end with SaltyDawg's advice to me: make sure you engage in self care. (Last two years for myself were a constant state of crisis.) I, personally, also recommend surrounding yourself with close family and friends if possible to help you focus on self-care activities.

[Cat Familiar]

As ForeverDad often says here, “we are *good guys and gals*” trying to manage and make the best of finding ourselves in a relationship with a partner with mental illness.

And as Emaanbillah mentions, not only will our pwBPD try to make us feel guilty for choices that don’t fulfill their never ending needs, often we are also dealing with their family members who try and guilt us over not catering to those endless “needs.”

Lost in these supplications is the fact that we are human beings with our own wants and needs. That someone is mentally ill does not supersede the reality that we are important too; often that fact gets lost in the blaming and shaming of us when we are not doing 110% to serve our BPD spouses.

[Falcon2437]

I will just continue to say thank you all for the support and the understanding. I can honestly say I would not be in this situation where I am safely living apart from my wife with BPD without everyone's support. Instead she might be pregnant or have really killed herself. This site really helped give me the tools to understand and approach setting my own boundaries. Emaanbillah similar to your situation thinking about what my partner was doing to my family and what it would be like for kids was a major breaking point for me along with everything else. Thank you again for reaching out.

Update from my end:

Since my wife was released from the mental hospital she has been staying at her mother's apartment. Once we reached a week of (mostly) not talking I loosened my boundary but still kept one in place. I saw her for dinner and a brief movie at her mom's apartment over the weekend. She spent the first half hour talking about how sorry she was, how she didn't realize how manipulative her behavior was but does see it now and is trying to change it. How she is taking medication now and in IOP for a while as she tries to get better. She also talked about how scared she was in the hospital and how she was worried one of the other patients would rape her because she kept making comments and looking at her at night. I can only imagine how scary it was in there and I don't want to take anything away from her very real and very valid feelings but as she was telling me this I just kept thinking "I feel like the person who literally has raped me and taken advantage of me sexually is now trying to guilt me into feeling responsible for someone making sexually suggestive comments and looks at them, why am I even listening to this?" I then felt guilty because again I truly do believe she felt that way and her feelings are valid and mine don't trump hers by any stretch, I just am having a really hard time listening to her talk about that knowing what she put me through. I was also told how I saved her life.

I told her that I am really happy for her that she is taking the steps she needs to in order to work on her mental health (and the PTSD diagnosis) and I am ok with us talking a little more and with us setting up a time for dinner early next week but I am not ok with us living together right now. I told her how she had previously said she understands we might need to go back to square one and I said that is what I need. She didn't really respond to that for a while and we started watching a movie. About an hour into it she stopped it to tell me how she respects what I need but that being away from me is "traumatizing" for her and she doesn't understand why we can't be together while we take this slow. I am fairly proud of myself because I held my ground with what I needed while trying very hard not to de-value or discredit what she needs. I told her how I understand she feels that way and I'm sorry she does, but this is what I need for myself and my needs matter too. We do own the house together so I told her if she wants to stay there she is welcome to, but I will be staying with a friend in that case. She pushed for a little while on that but never really yelled. I appreciate that she didn't yell and it was much more tearful and calm than screaming, but at this point I kindof recognize it as her just trying to manipulate me into doing what she wants, just by a different tactic. I truly don't know if she is doing it on purpose, I tend to think she isn't, but it doesn't really matter, either way I did hold my ground and told her we can keep talking and see each other for dinner later in the week but we are not sleeping in the same house right now. After a while it died down and I left to go home. She followed me down the stairs to try one more time but I held firm.

The next day my MIL called me to tell me how, like my wife said, this is adding "trauma" and the uncertainty of things in our relationship is traumatizing my wife. I told her I'm truly sorry. I do not want to add trauma of any sort, but I also need to think about my own trauma and what I need. What I need right now is this space and if she really can't handle the "uncertainty" then she can file for divorce if she'd like and then there is a definitive answer. My MIL immediately shifted to "well I know she doesn't want a divorce." And that's ok, she doesn't need to want that, I'm still not 100% sure what I want because I do still love her. But you don't get to tell me I have to make a decision now because I am causing trauma when there are two people in this relationship (three if you count my MIL ) and she can make a decision too. My MIL also asked me to come to two family holidays/birthdays over the next couple of weeks and I thankfully have to work during both.

After that phone call I hid alerts on my phone from both of them. I can't take the step to block yet especially because my wife is in very real pain, but I can at least limit the exposure I have to it. I hope I'm doing the right thing, but I know I feel better.

I am having dinner with my wife tonight and I am hoping to learn a great deal about our future and how she is doing there. At this point it has been long enough to where any medication she is taking should be making its impact and I want to see how it feels with her. When we met up last week there was some good, there was some bad, but ultimately despite no yelling or swearing or threats I left feeling like sh!t. I left feeling bad about myself, bad about how she made me feel and bad about the chances of any potential future being truly happy. I want to see if that is how I feel again today or if that was just a rough night after what was an extremely difficult week for both of us.

Anyway I think I just wanted to get all of that off my chest, thank you for listening.

[Notwendy]

I am glad you are holding your boundaries.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's still blaming you for your boundaries, and saying you are traumatizing your wife.  This is victim perspective. It does not include being accountable for her own actions or any awareness of their impact on you.

You are NOT doing anything to traumatize anyone. You are keeping to the boundaries that you feel are important for your own emotional and physical well being. There's nothing wrong with what you are doing, yet the perspective is blaming you for your wife's feelings, not validating your feelings or supporting you.

To me this looks like "well I will behave in order to get things back to what they were". Not "I care about you in this relationship". There isn't any acknowledgement of your needs or feelings in these exchanges.

PwBPD can be externally motivated to behave but if it's to get you back to where things were, that motivation will not be there if you do that. Real change takes time and work. If she's serious, she will comply with therapy over a long period of time not just until she's back in the home and you will see change over time, not instantaneously.

Your MIL is also taking on "rescuer" role but you are not to blame here. You did not cause your wife's BPD.

[Falcon2437]

Yeah Notwendy I think I am doing better with my boundaries and most of all I think I am doing a better job of seeing through some of the BS. Seeing through some of the blame and conditions. I do really want to see how dinner goes tonight and go from there, but if that boundary can't be respected and if that will always be turned into blame and I always leave feeling horribly then maybe that's my answer anyway.

[ForeverDad]

I agree with Notwendy, there is a slippery slope here and if you're not careful you'll slip right back into the chaos you just barely escaped from.  You're not quite safe, not yet.

"He is most free of danger, who, even when safe, is on his guard." — Publilius Syrus

[Falcon2437]

Thank you foreverdad I know I am definitely not "out of the woods" yet and frankly even if I do decide to divorce and cut ties I know this is a long road regardless.

[Notwendy]

I think it's worth exploring that "feeling terrible" sensation. It's a warning. Our feelings are messages we send to ourself. If we feel uneasy, or on edge, it means something. Either someone is not respecting our boundaries, or we are not being authentic to ourselves. I think it's the ignoring these feelings that get us into disordered relationships and/or lead us to stay in them.

Soft boundaries send a mixed message and a part of this is that you also are not sure exactly what you want. Dinner can be a soft boundary. Dinner is potentially romantic, with the possibility of her coming home with you afterwards. If the intent is only to meet and talk- the less potentially romantic situation is to meet in park or coffee shop in the middle of the day with people around.

Think about what your boundaries are ahead of time. Boundaries are how you respond when you feel they are pushed.  If you pick her up, then bring her back home but she may not want to get out of the car and instead go home with you. After dinner, she might want to come to your  house "to get something she forgot", or "just for coffee" and you know that if you agree to any of it, and you don't want her to stay, you would have to actually ask her to leave, which is very hard to do, especially since the house is part hers. If you do bring her back and she insists on staying- you would then need to go to a friend's house or hotel if you don't want to sleep in the same  house together.

She's not to blame for this- she'd be acting on what she wants and every encounter with you is a chance for her to express this. If you don't want this, then you have to be the one to say no, and that is hard to do.

[Cat Familiar]

How did dinner go?

[Falcon2437]

Dinner/the night was hit or miss, thank you for asking Cat. I actually read your post a couple times before walking in NotWendy, so thank you guys again. I had already planned very intentionally of us to take different cars and just meet at the restaurant so there was no chance of me needing to drive her somewhere.

Dinner itself was mostly ok until the conversation turned more serious. She told me how she almost checked herself back into the hospital the day before because she was having suicidal feelings but talked herself out of them (which is obviously terrifying to hear but also very good that she was able to work through it). The rest of the talk from there was fairly intense about how she is falling apart and doesn't know how much more trauma she can take alone. About 90 minutes in she asked if I wanted to go somewhere else for a drink or something or go home. I told her that we can see each other again later in the week but if we are doing that then honestly this was a little intense for me so I think I'll call it a night. Maybe 30 seconds after I left she called me. I was an idiot and answered. She told me how she has never felt more awkward and worthless and how she just wants to feel wanted. Somehow that turned into me asking her to meet somewhere to talk more. She pushed for it to be at the house, I at least held firm on that boundary and said I will not do that. So we met at a bar.

At the bar she talked about how she is "tired of counting the minutes waiting to be loved" and how I have now turned into this cold person who she doesn't recognize anymore. When I told her that we could keep talking and see if there is something here but I am not comfortable with us having a physical relationship right now (that doesn't just mean sex, she was upset I hadn't kissed her) she straight up left. I didn't chase after her so of course 3-5 minutes later she came back. She talked about how for us to really try again we have to take down our walls and protections. I told her point blank that I felt like I was taken advantage of and I can't just turn off those walls/protections like a switch because that is not how feelings work. She pushed really hard for a timeline of when I'll be able to have us live together, when I'll know if I want to move forward, etc. I told her I can't give you a definitive timeline right now. She then talked about how she was getting older and biologically needs to move forward with her life sooner rather than later. At that point it was fairly late, she had me hug her a few times and kindof kept me there waiting for me to kiss her but again that is a boundary I will not cross so I did not do it and she eventually left.

She texted me that night about how we needed to have tough conversations like that to move forward and while I agree we would need to have some tough talks I also need to be able to have one night with her where I don't leave feeling badly. And I realize "feel bad" is a juvenile way of talking, but I agree with you NotWendy that my feeling is an important message to listen to.

As I type all of this out it reinforces how I felt in the moment which is that while the suicide threats and yelling are mostly gone it is the same agenda. It is just trying to manipulate me through tears and guilt instead of screams and fear.

We have a couples counselor session set for next week and I guess I will see how that goes.