Need help/advice

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Been married almost 19 yrs.  About 8 years ago we went to a psychologist due to her behavior.  She quit when the psychologist started asking her about her past.  The psychologist told me she couldn't give me a diagnosis on her due to privacy concerns but to look up BPD.  She fit most of the traits.  

She is a recovering alcoholic of 3.5 years.  She attends AA but has not done any of the steps.  We also have a daughter who is 15 yrs old and has a lot of anxiety (I believe due to the issues at home).  

Before we got married, she told me that she lost a baby due to trisomy 18.  I listened and was compassionate and we even went to his grave a number of times.  The year we got married was very difficult due to her ex nosing into our relationship.  She would often sneak out to spend time with him (her dad who is extremely mentally unstable is best friends with this guy).  All three of them would spend quite a bit of time together.  It wasn't until I told her the marriage was over and I wanted her out of the house, that things changed.  Well, at least I thought so..

The next few years were up and down, in 2008 we had our daughter.  It was a rough pregnancy and my wife almost died after our daughter was born.  About 5 years later I noticed my wife starting to see changes in my wife on how she treated me and our daughter.  It's when we went to the psychologist.  Little did I know that she was drinking quite heavily afterwards and a lot of turmoil ensued.  She was taken to rehab twice and both times walked out.  The second time is when I told her she had the choice of either making a commitment to recovery or me and my daughter were leaving.  She joined AA and it has helped her tremendously.  She often goes twice a week, however like I said she has not done any of the steps.

Covid took a toll on her and she was working from home while my daughter was doing cyber school.  I saw again changes in my wife, at this point my daughter was terrified that her mom was going to leave since my wife always threatened us with this.  One night out of the blue, she told me she is moving out, getting an apartment in a building that her ex owns.  She then proceeded to scream at my daughter.  I left with my daughter because I didn't feel safe.  

Of course rumors started up and people started telling me they have seen my wife with this guy.  I told my wife that this is not how things should be handled.  We tried marriage counseling the counselor told me that in the 30 years of her profession, she has never given up on someone but with my wife she has.  That she sees the BPD and she is not equipped to deal with it.  

During this year, my wife stayed overnight at this apartment maybe twice.  She continued to stay at the house, my daughter would have breakdowns if she wasn't at the house and she refused to spend anytime at this apartment.

Few months later my wife came and said what she did as the stupidest thing in her life by getting that place.  She stopped renting it back in 2021.

My daughter til this day is filled with anxiety and follows her wherever she goes.  My wife has racked up major credit card debt and still acts like a teenager.  She does impulsive and strange things, such as taking black house paint and painting both the exterior and interior of her car.  When I ask her why, her response is 'At least I am not drinking'.

Anyway that's just a small background of her.  Last week my wife out of the blue has told me that she is talking with her ex (again).  As much as I could to keep calm, I told her that I don't believe this is a good idea due to the issues in the past.  She just started the verbal abuse on me, telling me how awful I am, etc..  I told her that I trust you and left it at that.

Something was gnawing at me and I looked at the phone records to see that there are dozens upon dozens of text messages and going back to over a month ago.

Last sunday I asked her what is going on with that (I didn't tell her I looked at the phone records) and she got very snippy and kept asking me why did I want to know.  I told her it's been bothering me and we are married.  We don't need anymore drama in our lives.  

She then proceeded to tell me that she is going with him this week to visit the baby she lost (she was with him at the time, but it might not even be his kid).  I asked her why she would do this, since I have offered many times to go with her.  She lost him on May 6th, this coming weekend.  She has never gone with him to visit.  I told her this is crossing the boundaries and if you want to continue testing the waters with him then I am done with the marriage.

That was Sunday night, I haven't talked to her since.  I don't know how to approach her, and I am emotionally exhausted.  My daughter asked me if I was ok, which I told her yes, I don't want her to worry but she knows.

Any advice on how to deal with this?  Anyone have any similar experiences?

[Brooklyn1974]

Been married almost 19 yrs.  About 8 years ago we went to a psychologist due to her behavior.  She quit when the psychologist started asking her about her past.  The psychologist told me she couldn't give me a diagnosis on her due to privacy concerns but to look up BPD.  She fit most of the traits.  

She is a recovering alcoholic of 3.5 years.  She attends AA but has not done any of the steps.  We also have a daughter who is 15 yrs old and has a lot of anxiety (I believe due to the issues at home).  

Before we got married, she told me that she lost a baby due to trisomy 18.  I listened and was compassionate and we even went to his grave a number of times.  The year we got married was very difficult due to her ex nosing into our relationship.  She would often sneak out to spend time with him (her dad who is extremely mentally unstable is best friends with this guy).  All three of them would spend quite a bit of time together.  It wasn't until I told her the marriage was over and I wanted her out of the house, that things changed.  Well, at least I thought so..

The next few years were up and down, in 2008 we had our daughter.  It was a rough pregnancy and my wife almost died after our daughter was born.  About 5 years later I noticed my wife starting to see changes in my wife on how she treated me and our daughter.  It's when we went to the psychologist.  Little did I know that she was drinking quite heavily afterwards and a lot of turmoil ensued.  She was taken to rehab twice and both times walked out.  The second time is when I told her she had the choice of either making a commitment to recovery or me and my daughter were leaving.  She joined AA and it has helped her tremendously.  She often goes twice a week, however like I said she has not done any of the steps.

Covid took a toll on her and she was working from home while my daughter was doing cyber school.  I saw again changes in my wife, at this point my daughter was terrified that her mom was going to leave since my wife always threatened us with this.  One night out of the blue, she told me she is moving out, getting an apartment in a building that her ex owns.  She then proceeded to scream at my daughter.  I left with my daughter because I didn't feel safe.  

Of course rumors started up and people started telling me they have seen my wife with this guy.  I told my wife that this is not how things should be handled.  We tried marriage counseling the counselor told me that in the 30 years of her profession, she has never given up on someone but with my wife she has.  That she sees the BPD and she is not equipped to deal with it.  

During this year, my wife stayed overnight at this apartment maybe twice.  She continued to stay at the house, my daughter would have breakdowns if she wasn't at the house and she refused to spend anytime at this apartment.

Few months later my wife came and said what she did as the stupidest thing in her life by getting that place.  She stopped renting it back in 2021.

My daughter til this day is filled with anxiety and follows her wherever she goes.  My wife has racked up major credit card debt and still acts like a teenager.  She does impulsive and strange things, such as taking black house paint and painting both the exterior and interior of her car.  When I ask her why, her response is 'At least I am not drinking'.

Anyway that's just a small background of her.  Last week my wife out of the blue has told me that she is talking with her ex (again).  As much as I could to keep calm, I told her that I don't believe this is a good idea due to the issues in the past.  She just started the verbal abuse on me, telling me how awful I am, etc..  I told her that I trust you and left it at that.

Something was gnawing at me and I looked at the phone records to see that there are dozens upon dozens of text messages and going back to over a month ago.

Last sunday I asked her what is going on with that (I didn't tell her I looked at the phone records) and she got very snippy and kept asking me why did I want to know.  I told her it's been bothering me and we are married.  We don't need anymore drama in our lives.  

She then proceeded to tell me that she is going with him this week to visit the baby she lost (she was with him at the time, but it might not even be his kid).  I asked her why she would do this, since I have offered many times to go with her.  She lost him on May 6th, this coming weekend.  She has never gone with him to visit.  I told her this is crossing the boundaries and if you want to continue testing the waters with him then I am done with the marriage.

That was Sunday night, I haven't talked to her since.  I don't know how to approach her, and I am emotionally exhausted.  My daughter asked me if I was ok, which I told her yes, I don't want her to worry but she knows.

Any advice on how to deal with this?  Anyone have any similar experiences?

[livednlearned]

I told her this is crossing the boundaries and if you want to continue testing the waters with him then I am done with the marriage.

Do you feel in your heart that this is true?

If she goes with her ex to see the baby's grave but then comes home and wants to try again, is that something you're open to?

Having an unstable sense of self, or no self at all, means she is likely on a non-stop emotional roller coaster, so any choice she makes is good for as long as she can bear it, or until a different feeling comes up. This is exhausting for her, and for the people who love her.

BPD isn't something we can reason with because it comes from a place of emotion, and for pwBPD those emotions change often. Feelings = facts. We become caretakers more than spouses, but for some people that is a familiar role and the goal becomes learning to manage in that role.

Does your daughter have a therapist or counselor?

[Brooklyn1974]

Do you feel in your heart that this is true?

I believe it is.  She has cheated twice on me before (both when she was heavily drinking).  The stress me and my daughter are under is just too intense.  I feel at times I am being played as a fool even though I know it's the BPD.  However they still have to know a sense of right and wrong, correct?

I offer my daughter counseling, she did one session with the marriage counselor.  The MC didn't think she was in any danger but the past events have definitely taken away from her childhood and right after my initial post on here she texted me telling me she was having a difficult time dealing with this. 

Do I just stay non-verbal with my wife for now?  I know no matter what I say it will be twisted and used against me.  However my wife has expressed in the past that me not talking to her is one of the hardest things she had to face (last time she cheated, I didn't talk to her for a few days, I needed to process everything).

[livednlearned]

However they still have to know a sense of right and wrong, correct?

It probably comes down more to your values. Some people can tolerate infidelity. Others cannot. Your wife has cheated twice and was able to return to you. She may be learning that the boundary does not stand.

The MC didn't think she was in any danger but the past events have definitely taken away from her childhood and right after my initial post on here she texted me telling me she was having a difficult time dealing with this.

I would listen to your daughter over the MC. And maybe find a child psychologist, not one who specializes in marriage counseling. A child psychologist will be attuned more to what your daughter needs in terms of her emotional development.

Do I just stay non-verbal with my wife for now?  I know no matter what I say it will be twisted and used against me.  However my wife has expressed in the past that me not talking to her is one of the hardest things she had to face (last time she cheated, I didn't talk to her for a few days, I needed to process everything).

It's always ok to say that you need time to collect yourself. The people with BPD in my life have not liked when I am no longer engaging in the same patterns. I've always been a listener, fixer, rescuer, caregiver. When I focus instead on myself, almost always there is a change in their behavior.

If you give your wife a heads up that you are changing your behavior (taking time to process and think) be ready for a test of some kind. I wouldn't tell her you need space unless you feel it's something you can do. By space, I mean an emotional boundary. If she shows up and wants something, you have to be able to stand by your boundary. "I hear you. As I mentioned, I need time."

There's a good chance she will want the opposite of what you want. If you want space, she may want to be close and vice versa. I don't know why push-pull happens with BPD loved ones. It seems to be rooted in an attempt to gain control over their own emotions.

We become collateral damage in that effort.

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you, that was very helpful.  I've asked my daughter if she wants to talk to a counselor and she says she doesn't.  Trying to push the issue with her would just make her feel worse.  I told her she can talk to me about anything, including this whenever she feels like it. 

I haven't talked to my wife yet.  She really hasn't said anything to me as well.  From what I am assuming is that she will go Thurs. with this guy and come back all happy and expect me to be totally OK with everything.  I did contact two lawyers but did not hear back from them yet. 

At some point I am going to have to talk with her, I've just been thinking about what to say and how to say it.  I can't continue on this rollercoaster anymore when she does these things.  I so wish she would go back to the psychologist but she would totally be against that since it's always everyone else's fault.  If she has remorse for things in the past that she's done, she definitely doesn't let anyone know. 

Since she's been in AA her motto has been wanting 'peace' in her life, however doing these things only bring about drama, hurt and turmoil, at least to the ones around her. 

[ForeverDad]

This may be the time to warn about TMI.  If you had some hope for the marriage then naturally you would try to heal the marriage and in such scenarios you would share information.  However if the marriage is failing, then you have to be careful what you share.  Typically if a marriage is ending or ended then you more or less limit yourself to necessary parenting or financial details.  If you allow TMI (too much information) then you have to accept that any shared strategies you're contemplating could enable the other to use that information to sabotage you.

Once you state your terms or boundary, or what you've decided to do, your spouse may start a "scorched earth" policy.  Too often that is what we have experienced.  It could be an extinction burst with a goal for you to shrink back to prior status.

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for the advice.  This morning as I was getting ready for work (she is supposed to meet him today) all I asked her was 'Are you going with him today?'.  All she said was 'I'm going to the cemetery with him.'.  All I then said was 'You make your choices; I will make mine'.  She then just said 'Ok' and went upstairs to bed throwing the covers over her head.

Not sure if that was the right thing to say or if any of it makes a difference.  To me it's 'testing the waters' and with the history of all of this, it just gives me anxiety.  I admit I'm an empath and now realize I've been used quite a bit.  It hurts.  I don't even know how to proceed from here.

I told my daughter that her and me will do something after work, she's been quiet.  My daughter told me last night that her mom actually asked her if she wanted to go with.  IMO that's beyond messed up.  I think back to all the times that my daughter had to endure this drama and chaos.  It's not fair to either of us.

[Brooklyn1974]

Just an update.  She went with him, I have an outdoor camera on my porch and when she left, she didn't have her wedding ring on.  When I got home from work, she arrived at the same time.  She put her wedding ring on.  IMO that's very shady.  She  met up with him and they drove together, gone most of the afternoon.

My daughter was very upset with all of this.  I talked to her about it and how mom continuously has 'bad surprises' as my daughter puts it.  

I tried talking to my wife Saturday morning asking her not to interrupt me so I can talk, as I started with 'I can understand this is an emotional day for you (it was that day, that her baby passed 20+ years ago), what I feel is hurt' she then shut me down, talking over me, putting me down, using FOG.  Telling me that I am the only one that makes her to want start drinking again, killing herself, etc..   So I didn't JADE, didn't say anything else.

Last night, I tried again and same result, telling me I'm an awful person, I don't do enough for her, she doesn't have anything left in her for me.  So I then told her perhaps it's best you move out.  She refuses and tells me she won't until a divorce happens and in the mean time I need to support her (mind you, she blew through her paycheck in one week and doesn't really have any bills, I pay all the household bills, mortgage, etc..).  I told her that was not going to happen and said that I would look for a lawyer this week (haven't told her I already going to meet one this week).  

She then threatened she will go for alimony and all this other stuff but then also said we don't need lawyers, just go to the courthouse.  I told her it doesn't work that way and I will protect what is mine.  She then wanted more money from me this morning and I refused.  I told her that she has me painted black, which she didn't disagree to.  I'm just emotionally done, tired of defending myself from 'blanket statements'.  Tired of the blame and using her alcoholism to try and guilt me into leaving myself with nothing just so that she can continue her immaturity and lack of responsibility.

It just seems like when another crisis happens, it brings back all of the past things she has wronged me with.  She spends more energy into other people then her own husband.  Telling me that she can't deal when I am stressed and have negative energy, however about 75% of it, is caused by her but that's something she refuses to address.  

[ForeverDad]

Telling me that I am the only one that makes her to want start drinking again, killing herself, etc... Last night, I tried again and same result, telling me I'm an awful person, I don't do enough for her, she doesn't have anything left in her for me.

So, bottom line, in her mind the marriage is over.

... and said that I would look for a lawyer this week (haven't told her I already going to meet one this week). 

She then threatened she will go for alimony and all this other stuff but then also said we don't need lawyers, just go to the courthouse.

This is what I warned you about TMI.  Telling her you will look for a lawyer can trigger an unneeded (or too soon) overreaction.  At least you didn't tell her all your plans.  Please ponder over what you will say before you say it.  Once you consult a lawyer, you'll be told pretty much the same thing.

Your teen daughter will be an adult in a few years.  Contrary to your worry, setting a boundary for proper behavior and respect for marriage - even if it means the end of your marriage - will set a good example for your daughter.  She would be less likely to seek out a relationship similar to the example of her parents up to now.